§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I rise to ask what steps are being taken by His Majesty's Government to obtain an independent Report on the treatment of British prisoners in Germany. The subject-matter of this Question has already been dealt with in another place but I make no apology for returning to it, because there is, I have reason to believe, considerable anxiety throughout the country with regard to the treatment of prisoners in Germany. In the second place there is an impression, which I cannot help thinking is a mistaken impression, that His Majesty's Government are unwilling to pursue the investigations and push them through thoroughly, in order not to embitter our relations with Germany. Personally I am unable to conceive of any circumstances which would further embitter the feeling of Germany towards this country at the present moment. Like presumably many other persons, I was disposed to think for a long time that these statements with regard to the treatment of British officers and soldiers in Germany were considerably exaggerated, and that impression was rather strengthened by the fact that I had come across instances of cases in which wounded British officers and men were treated with conspicuous humanity and skill by German medical officers. But as the war has progressed and as evidence has accumulated I think it is very difficult to resist the conclusion that this opinion was a somewhat too favourable one.
There are in Germany, as there are here, two categories of prisoners. There are interned civilians and there are prisoners of war. The interned civilians are, if I am not mistaken, all concentrated at Ruhleben. Ruhleben is a racing ground, and racing not being there considered so sacrosanct an institution as it is in this country, the racing stables have been converted to the use of prisoners who are lodged in the stalls, in the loose-boxes, and in the lofts. A letter appeared in The Times either of to-day or of Saturday describing the conditions, and it is evident that these lofts, stalls, and so on are greatly over-crowded, that the place is not properly heated, that the food is scanty unless the prisoners are able to purchase provisions at their own cost, that the sanitary arrangements are bad, and that there are many weak, infirm, and diseased people confined there; but it is only fair to say that there is no actual 746 charge of ill-treatment. The only thing that one can say is that the treatment is, perhaps, more severe than might have been anticipated by persons whose only offence was that they were either residing in or passing through Germany at the outbreak of war; and it is perfectly safe to state that the conditions there are certainly less tolerable than in any analogous camps in this country.
Now as regards prisoners of war. According to the numerous letters and statements which have appeared, the ill-treatment of these prisoners began directly they were taken. We have all read only too frequently accounts of the neglect of the wounded and of the herding of wounded and unwounded men into cattle trucks, often of a filthy description. I am acquainted with an officer who was thrust with fifty-one companions into a covered truck. He was kept there for three days and nights, and in the course of the journey was ordered by a German officer, the commandant de place, to present himself at the open door of this truck. The German officer addressed to him a long speech composed entirely of abuse of British prisoners and of the British nation, and it was concluded by an injunction to one of the sentries who stood at the side of this officer to kick him. This action was ordered by the German officer, and was carried out apparently for the sole reason that the officer in question happened to be the senior British officer available. We must hope that instances of similar brutality are rare. But it seems to me that we cannot ignore the fact that evidence tends to show that the majority of British prisoners proceeding to their places of detention were treated with great harshness, that they were in many instances refused food and drink, and that they were exposed to the insults and outrages of the civilian population. I doubt whether there has been a similar exhibition of hostility on the part of one nation towards another for some considerable time, and it can only be described as an eloquent tribute to the success of that campaign of hate which has been so carefully organised in Germany against this country.
It may be said that all this is inevitable and inseparable from the conduct of a campaign; but unfortunately it appears that the ill-treatment of British prisoners was not confined to the journey towards 747 their places of detention but was continued in many instances in the military hospitals and in the concentration camps where they were confined. I desire to make this statement as concise as I can, and therefore will say next to nothing about the case of officers. I think it is fairly plain that British officers have been much better treated than the men, and that they have less to complain of. I desire to draw attention mainly to the treatment of British soldiers, and above all to endeavour to impress upon the House that the treatment of the British soldier has been in many cases distinctly worse than the treatment of French and Belgian soldiers who were confined in the same place; and that to my mind is the really important part of the question. It may, perhaps, have been noticed that when I mentioned French and Belgian soldiers I omitted purposely the Russians, because, if my information is correct, the Russian soldiers have been in many instances treated as badly as our own.
It is perfectly easy to obtain information on the subject, not from what appears in the newspapers but at first hand. At the present moment there are a number of wounded officers and men who have recently arrived in this country, and who have been exchanged because they were considered unfit for further service. I, like I dare say other members of this House, have taken the trouble to visit many of these men and hear their stories, and I have examined a number of men who have been imprisoned at various places in Germany, including, for instance, such places as Münster, Düsseldorf, Duisburg, Salzwedel, Halberstadt, Bielefeld, Mülheim, Wüzburg, Magdeburg, Dortmund, Aix, and Cologne, and the conclusion to my mind is absolutely irresistible that there has been, with the exception of certain places, of which Würzburg is one, discrimination as between British soldiers and French and Belgian soldiers, and that discrimination apparently extends to their treatment not only in the hospitals but in the concentration camps as well. In the hospitals in Germany—if what these men state is correct, and I have no reason to doubt their veracity—the French and the Belgian soldiers were better fed, were treated with greater consideration, and were allowed certain small comforts and privileges. On the other hand, the English prisoners, so far as my informants' ex- 748 perience went, were apparently treated with absolutely undisguised hatred and contempt. They were neglected and were subjected to a series of petty insults and bullying, which in some cases even took the malignant form of operations being performed on British soldiers without anæsthetics, whereas anæsthetics were administered to the men of other nationalities.
As regards the question of the concentration camps, I have been informed by a certain number of these men that they were discharged from the hospitals still suffering or, at all events, not properly cured of their wounds, and that when they were put into the concentration camps they were made to work although in no case was work exacted from the French and the Belgians. And as in the hospitals so in the concentration camps the English soldiers, if what they state is correct, were habitually worse fed; they were left in a disgusting state of filth; they were denied the small privileges which were accorded to their fellow-prisoners, and if there was any particularly repulsive work to perform they were always the men selected to do it. It is evident that the conditions vary in different camps, but one cannot help feeling a very strong suspicion that instructions have emanated from high quarters to subject British prisoners to what I can only term a course of vindictive bullying.
I said that I was not going to say much about the case of the officers, but there is a case to which I feel bound to refer, and that is an incident which took place at the prisoners' camp at Crefeld. Crefeld was visited by an officer of high rank who commanded the district, Baron von Bissing—I understand he has a brother who is enjoying the hospitality of this country at this moment. General von Bissing visited this camp and made a speech to the British officers in which he indulged in violent denunciations of this country. He wound up by saying that they were too comfortable, and that he should see that they were made less comfortable. These British officers were considerably crowded, but were kept together. Well, as the result of Baron von Bissing's instructions the officers were divided and Russian officers were placed with the English officers for the reason that the Russian officers could speak no French, and therefore there were no means 749 of inter-communication between the two. That is an action of petty and malignant spite which seems almost incredible, but which I know to be absolutely true.
Now, the object of this conduct is plain enough. The object of the German authorities who have subjected our officers and men to such treatment is not only to wreak vengeance upon these unfortunate persons but to show our Allies that we are the real enemy, and that we are the people who are really responsible for the tragedy of the present war. It is quite easy, as I have already said, to test these allegations at first hand. I believe that certain steps have already been taken in that direction, and I confess that it seems to me that the case for an independent inquiry is evident. Our conscience with regard to this question is perfectly clear. We have nothing whatever with which to reproach ourselves. We have nothing to conceal. We, I imagine, are prepared to court the fullest investigation. I imagine that there would be no objection raised in this country if the Germans desired to send a purely German commission over here in order to visit and report upon the prisons and concentration camps. As a matter of fact, an official or a semi-official emissary has been over here from Germany who has visited the concentration camps, and if I am not mistaken his report was entirely favourable. Of one thing I feel quite certain, and that is that if any German mission came over here with the object of investigating and reporting upon the conditions of the German prisoners in this country they would certainly admit that there is no discrimination here between one nationality and another, and that a German is treated precisely in the same way as, say, an Austrian, a Hungarian, or a Turk.
There are many people in this country, with whom I totally disagree, who urge what is called retaliation. I disagree with a proposal of that kind for two reasons. In the first place, it is contrary to our traditions, and contrary, I might almost say, to the practice of civilised nations. In the second place, it appears to me that it would only produce a disastrous result. The people who urge retaliation upon German prisoners in this country seem to me to be under a complete misapprehension of the German spirit. A very distinguished man, no less a person than the French 750 Commander-in-Chief, General Joffre, remarked to me some months ago, "The German spirit as displayed in this war is quite different from the spirit displayed in 1870." It must be clear to everybody by this time that the Germans are largely hoping to win by the sheer force of terrorising nations and individuals, and for my part I decline altogether to believe that the German Government is much concerned over the fate of their own prisoners. My impression is that these prisoners are looked upon by them as wreckage, that they are considered as so much lost capital which need no longer be considered; and the only effect of our retaliating upon German prisoners in this country would be to afford them, if they chose it, an excuse for exhibiting greater inhumanity towards such prisoners of our nationality as they held in their hands. In my humble opinion the only thing which is likely to exert any real influence over the procedure of the German Government in this matter is the intervention of a powerful neutral State—in other words, the intervention of the United States. I believe that the mere announcement that the American Government had agreed to send an independent representative to report upon the condition of British prisoners in Germany would at once cause a material improvement in their treatment. I do not think that we can well exaggerate the services which the American Government has rendered to this country during the war. I do not think that we can show ourselves too grateful for what the American Government has done for us, not only in Europe but also in other parts of the world. Considering what they have done, it might seem almost ungracious to ask them to do something else. But I submit that there would be justification in asking them to undertake the task which I have just suggested on the simple grounds of humanity and justice.
I believe that His Majesty's Government have been negotiating for some considerable time, for some months, in the endeavour to obtain an inquiry of some kind; and judging from what fell from the Under-Secretary in the House of Commons the other day, I gather that negotiations are going on with regard to the engagement of a number of American quartermasters whose special business it shall be to see that British prisoners receive the food which is sent to them and to which they 751 are legitimately entitled. This may be a sound and practical suggestion, and it may result in an improvement in these unfortunate men's conditions; but without being too presumptuous I venture to express the opinion that a scheme of this kind is not quite sufficient. I should be the last person who would desire to embarrass the Foreign Office in any way, but I think we have the right to demand that every effort should be made by the Government to secure that a prisoner of war in Germany should not be treated worse than another man merely because he happens to be of British nationality.
§ LORD GRENFELLMy Lords, I desire to support the statements which have been made by my noble friend Lord Newton. As several men of my own regiment have returned with those so grievously wounded that they are unfit for service, I went to Millbank the day after they arrived and had an opportunity of hearing their stories. These men were not young soldiers; they were mostly men of the Reserve—good old soldiers, who were quite prepared to take the rough with the smooth. But some of the stories they told me—and I feel perfectly certain they were true—were so dreadful that I should hardly like to repeat them to your Lordships. I will only mention one case, that of a man who had been severely wounded. On one side two ribs had been carried away, and his right arm after several operations was eventually amputated. Yet on arrival at the place in which he was to be interned as a prisoner he was absolutely given over to the fury of the mob. This man told me that he was pushed about and his clothes torn, and his guard stood by laughing and enjoying it. When he was almost in a state of collapse they interfered and took him away. The men stated that in France and Belgium they were well treated. Of the hospitals there and of the doctors attached to them they had no complaint whatever. It was only when they arrived in Germany, and when they got especially to Prussia, that they met with insult and injury; and, as my noble friend has stated, discrimination was made between them and the men of other nationalities who were prisoners.
There is another question which the noble Lord has not touched upon. I have received many communications from depôts, from regimental committees, and 752 from private people that I am anxious to mention it to your Lordships' House. I refer to the question of money, and parcels containing food, clothing, and other things. Enormous quantities of the latter are sent from various organisations, and in some places very few of them appear to arrive. In the case of His Majesty's Guards I have had letters in which I have been told that the committee has sent off numberless parcels with food and clothing, but in the greater number of cases the parcels have not been delivered. I saw to-day at the Bar of the House an officer who had come to listen to the proceedings. I asked him whether he had had any experience in this matter, and he told me of a colonel in his regiment who had been in prison for many months. His relations and the regimental organisation had sent him parcels almost without number, and during a period of some months he had never received a single one. The real fact is that in Germany there appears to be no settled system regarding the feeding or the treatment of the prisoners. Some of the men told me that they were well treated; others said they had perfectly different rations from those given to the men to whom I had spoken before; and it seems to be left to each commandant to treat these unfortunate British soldiers in whatever way they please.
I sincerely trust that some public inquiry will be made. I think it would be an advantage if the German people were to know—if it ever could possibly get to them—the manner in which our men have been treated. I am sure we are most grateful to American gentlemen for the way they have worked. I have spoken to some, and in some cases they have found it absolutely impossible to assist our unfortunate men in any way. I think, my Lords, that there really is a necessity for en inquiry into this matter. I agree with Lord Newton that we could not possibly descend to reprisals upon the German soldiers who have fought for their country by treating them in the way that our officers and men have been treated in Germany.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYMy Lords, I should like to be allowed to add a few words. I am grateful to Lord Newton for calling atten- 753 tion to this matter. I feel that every one in the House must realise how urgently important it is that we and neutral States also should know at this moment what are the facts as to the treatment in Germany of those who are there as prisoners, whether belonging to our own nationality or to our Allies. I hope to hear from the noble Earl who will reply on behalf of the Government to-night that the efforts are likely to prove successful which have, as I understand, been made in the hope of obtaining the leave of Germany for an independent inspection of the facts and an independent report upon the condition of the camps and of the prisoners. The very fact of an inquiry being made would, I am quite certain, do very real good. In England we have had, formally or informally, more than one inquiry, and I am quite certain of the gain which has resulted in the satisfaction to British people of knowing that our honour is being rightly maintained as regards the treatment we are giving to those who are in our power in their helpless condition; and further, I am certain that what has now been reported must be giving satisfaction outside our own country. Your Lordships are aware that a semi-formal inquiry has been made into our own camps and prisons and places of restraint by a representative of the United States who is familiar also with Germany, and that his satisfactory testimony is based on the investigation which he was specially competent to make.
But what is, I think, still more important, is the Report which some of your Lordships, I dare say, have seen—the Report now issued on behalf of the International Red Cross Committee, which has been drawn up by the two representatives who visited the camps in England, M. Ed. Naville and M. V. van Berchem. M. Naville I had the advantage of seeing several times while he was in England. No more competent or impartial investigator could possibly have been chosen, and I am sure your Lordships who have got his Report will share with me the satisfaction I feel in finding that, with regard both to the military and civilian camps, after bringing forward all the criticisms he thinks it right and necessary to bring, he says that the impression left on his mind in each case is perfectly satisfactory. He points out that there were difficulties which had not at the moment of his visit been completely 754 overcome, but all of which were in process of being overcome at the very time when he was there. One of the main complaints or criticisms which occurs in almost all camps relates to a practical inconvenience certainly not peculiar to those interned, and that is a complaint about the occasional delay in the receipt of letters from abroad. That is a complaint current in most camps; and the very fact that they complain that the letters take fortnight to be delivered, of itself shows the nature of the conditions existing when that delay in postal arrangements is the worst complaint they can make. The Report on the whole is, to my mind, extremely satisfactory reading for us who have so earnestly desired that everything that is right should be done as regards the treatment of the prisoners. One interesting point in the Report made by these two independent foreigners which I think ought to be dwelt upon is the perfect freedom which was allowed by the authorities in London to these Swiss and German gentlemen in making their inquiries. They were allowed to go without any notice to every camp; no kind of restriction was placed upon their interviews with the prisoners interned; no Englishman was there present while the interviews took place; they conversed with the prisoners with absolute freedom wherever they desired to do so; and they express in the introductory chapter of their Report their cordial recognition of the absolute readiness on the part of the authorities, both central and local, to facilitate their inquiries in every way. Nothing could be more satisfactory than that, and the few suggestions which they made are receiving, as I know, at this moment the most careful attention, and some of them had been already remedied before the Report was made public.
There are two points upon which I desire, from some personal knowledge of the matter, to say a word. One is with regard to a point dwelt upon by M. Naville in his Report—the question of religious ministration to those who desire it in the camps. Some might feel, in face of difficulties so urgent and pressing as those of camp life, that the religious demand would come second to the supply of physical necessities. I do not wish to express any opinion about that. But this is certain. In the enforced leisure in the camps there are necessarily times of 755 the extremest depression, anxiety, and discomfort other than the purely physical, and those are the moments when it is particularly desirable that those who feel the need for it should have such ministry given to them as they may wish for. I have been in communication with the Foreign Office and even with some persons in Germany with regard to the possibility of securing in Germany anything at all corresponding to what we have already been able to secure in England. In the English camps, I believe I am right in saying, there is not at this moment one single camp in which we are not ministering to Germans in German and for the most part by Germans themselves. That has been a matter of great difficulty to arrange, because the number of persons who are able to minister competently in German and who are sufficiently free from other duties to be able to render this service is not very large, and I think it redounds to the credit of those who have taken it in hand that such good results have been achieved. Arrangements are being made for the German Lutherans, German Roman Catholics (where there are any), and others to whom it can be possible to minister in our camps in England to-day. Whether anything corresponding to that is being satisfactorily done in Germany is at present most doubtful. There is one heroic man working in and around Berlin, Dr. Williams, the chaplain there, who has been allowed through the friendliness of the German authorities free access to some of the camps in that neighbourhood, and I have direct testimony to the great value which is attached to the ministrations he has been able to give. I venture to hope that in that matter as well as in other matters—I know the Foreign Office are considering it—the success that has attended our endeavours in England may be emulated in the camps in Germany. There is no difficulty in furnishing in any number the necessary clergy provided they can obtain the leave of the German authorities to have access to the camps. We have quite a number of good and capable men ready to start at a moment's notice who would minister to those who are in the camps in our own language.
I past to the other point. I am very anxious to be allowed to endorse what has been said by both the noble Lords who have spoken as to the question which has 756 been sometimes raised of retaliation or reprisal on our part in view of the indisputable hardships and wrongs which have come to light as having happened in Germany. The records given to us tonight correspond very largely with what had already reached me, though I had heard more favourable accounts than the two noble Lords gave as regards the actual treatment of our wounded soldiers in the hospitals. I think it is fair to say that Iat least have had no intimation, though receiving communications on the subject, of the kind of hardship to our wounded in the hospitals to which reference has been made to-night. But with regard to the journeys from the places where the men were taken prisoners to their ultimate destination, or from one place of internment to another, or again with regard to the differentiation made by the Germans between British prisoners and French and Belgian prisoners in kindness of treatment accorded—as to those matters I am afraid it is difficult to think there is any doubt at all. If the facts are misrepresented, it is in the power of the German authorities to have the misrepresentation set right. I am absolutely sure that there are thousands of good men and women in Germany to whom it would be as detestable as it is to ourselves that these cruelties and wrongs should be tolerated. But whatever be the result of any independent inquiry, however dark be the picture such inquirers are able to paint, I hope that this country will not go one step forward in the direction of anything like reprisal or retaliation. To my mind nothing could be more contrary to the honourable traditions of English history or more foreign to the principles which should actuate us in matters of this kind, principles both of religion and of civilisation generally. There are many ways in which this war may possibly do harm to England and the English people, but one disaster would be greater than any other that I can imagine. I mean this, and I say it with my whole heart. If once we became infected with a lower spirit and adopted a lower ideal in these matters by imitating bad habits and bad ways of which we might hear elsewhere it would be the worst misfortune that the war could bring upon us. At present I believe we are being actuated in our whole treatment of those who are now under restraint in our land by the firmest determination that no endeavours shall be spared to alleviate for them to the utmost 757 the tedium of what must necessarily be a time of extreme trial; and I trust that whatever revelations as to the treatment of our own countrymen in Germany may come to light we shall resist with scorn the temptation to retaliate or to do anything which is unworthy of our traditions, unworthy of our ideals, or lowering to that self-respect which is an honourable asset in our country's life.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL BEAUCHAMP)My Lords, it is not surprising that the noble Lord opposite should have raised this question, because I am sure every member of your Lordships' House must feel a very real sympathy with the prisoners who are now in Germany and with the deep anxiety which their relatives must have especially in view of such distressing stories as those to which we have listened from the noble and gallant Field-Marshal. The noble Lord who generally answers for the Foreign Office is unfortunately unwell, and is unable to take part in this discussion. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord opposite will excuse me if I confine myself to the Question which he has on the Paper and do not discuss the various other matters which have been merged into the debate. Heartily as I agree with his remarks upon retaliation, I shall abstain from following him or the most rev. Primate in what was said on that subject.
As the noble Lord said, this matter has already been discussed in another place, and I do not suppose that he will be surprised to hear that I have nothing new to tell him. In view of the conflicting reports which had reached His Majesty's 'Government, mainly from private sources, as to the condition of internment of British prisoners of war, a proposal was made some time ago through the United States to Germany that United States officials, lent by their own Government for the purpose, should be in permanent touch with the commandants of the various camps, and that they should generally supervise the distribution of relief to the British prisoners of war. As no answer could be obtained from the German Government to this proposal, His Majesty's Government then requested the United States Government to obtain permission 758 from the German Government for an American representative, selected by the United States Embassy in London, to proceed to Germany and visit the camps in which British prisoners were interned, just in the same way as Mr. Jackson from the United States Embassy in Berlin visited the camps in the United Kingdom. There is now, however, reason to hope that the German Government will accept the proposal of His Majesty's Government for the adoption of the permanent scheme which has been outlined. It is believed that this will afford better guarantees for the proper treatment of British prisoners of war than a cursory inspection of prison camps.
It is quite evident to those of your Lordships who have followed the discussion that the noble Lord who asked the Question has evinced a great deal of interest in the matter and taken a great deal of trouble with regard to the presenting of the case to your Lordships. Will he allow me to suggest that he should be good enough to indicate to the Foreign Office the results of his inquiries? I am sure they will be glad to have them at first hand; and I venture to hope that if he repeats his inquiry at a later period in this House we may have a better account to give him of the treatment of British prisoners of war in Germany.
§ LORD NEWTONMay I suggest that a much simpler course would be that the men should give the evidence themselves rather than that I should supply the information.