Lords Sitting of 15 March 1915

SPENNYMOOR AND TUDHOE GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
DEAF AND DUMB POOR ASYLUM BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate of the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Strachie). (No. 56.)

BLYTH HARBOUR BILL.
LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.

NAVAL DISCIPLINE BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 92 and 93 be suspended; and that the time for depositing Petitions praying to be heard against Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills, also the time for depositing documents relating to any Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, which would otherwise expire during the adjournment of the House, be extended to the first day on which the House shall sit after the Recess at Easter.

THE WAR.
LABOUR DIFFICULTIES.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL KITCHENER): My Lords, for many weeks only trench fighting has been possible owing to the climatic conditions and waterlogged state of the ground. During this period of apparent inaction, it must not be forgotten that our troops have had to exercise the utmost individual vigilance and resource, and owing to the proximity
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of the enemy's lines a great strain has been imposed upon them. Prolonged warfare of this sort might be expected to affect the morale of an Army, but the traditional qualities of patience, good temper, and determination have maintained our men, though highly tried, in a condition ready to act with all the initiative and courage required when the moment for an advance arrived. The recently published accounts of the fighting in France have enabled us to appreciate how successfully our troops have taken the offensive. The German troops, notwithstanding their carefully prepared and strongly entrenched positions, have been driven back for a considerable distance, and the villages of Neuve Chapelle and L'Epinette have been captured and held by our Army, with heavy losses to the enemy.
In these operations our Indian troops took a prominent part and displayed fine fighting qualities. I will in this connection read a telegram I have received from Sir John French—
"Please transmit following message to Viceroy of India: I am glad to be able to inform your Excellency that the Indian troops under General Sir James Willcocks fought with great gallantry and marked success in the capture of Neuve Chapelle and subsequent fighting which took place on the tenth, eleventh, twelfth, and thirteenth of this month. The fighting was very severe and the losses heavy, but nothing daunted them. Their tenacity, courage, and endurance were admirable and worthy of the best traditions of the soldiers of India."
I should like also to mention that the Canadian Division showed their mettle, and have received the warm commendation of Sir John French for the high spirit and bravery with which they have performed their part. Our casualties during the three days' fighting, though probably severe, are not nearly so heavy as those suffered by the enemy, from whom a large number of prisoners have been taken.
Since I last spoke in this House substantial reinforcements have been sent to France. They include the Canadian Division, the North Midland Division, and the 2nd London Division, besides other units. These are the first complete Divisions of the Territorial Force to go to France, where I am sure they will do credit to themselves and sustain the high reputation which the Territorials have already won for themselves there. The health of the troops has been remarkably good, and their freedom from enteric fever

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and from the usual diseases incidental to field operations is a striking testimony to the value of inoculation and to the advice and skill of the Royal Army Medical Corps and its auxiliary organisations. The French Army, except for a slight withdrawal near Soissons, owing to their reinforcements being cut off by the swollen state of the Aisne River, have made further important progress at various points on the long line they hold, especially in Champagne. Association with both our Allies in the Western theatre has only deepened our admiration of their resolute tenacity and fighting qualities.
In the Eastern theatre the violent German attacks on Warsaw have failed in their purpose, and considerable concentrations of German troops to attack the Russian positions in East Prussia, after causing a retirement, are now either well held or are being driven back. In the Caucasus fresh defeats have been inflicted by the Russians on the Turks, and the latter have also been repulsed by our forces in Egypt when they attempted to attack the Suez Canal. The operations now proceeding against the Dardanelles show the great power of the Allied Fleets, and although at the present stage I can say no more than what is given in the public Press on the subject, your Lordships may rest assured that the matter is well in hand.
The work of supplying and equipping new Armies depends largely on our ability to obtain the war material required. Our demands on the industries concerned with the manufacture of munitions of war in this country have naturally been very great, and have necessitated that they and other ancillary trades should work at the highest possible pressure. The armament firms have promptly responded to our appeal, and have undertaken orders of vast magnitude. The great majority also of the employees have loyally risen to the occasion and have worked, and are working, overtime and on night shifts in all the various workshops and factories in the country. Notwithstanding these efforts to meet our requirements, we have unfortunately found that the output is not only not equal to our necessities but does not fulfil our expectations, for a very large number of our orders have not been completed by the dates on which they were promised.
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The progress in equipping our new Armies and also in supplying the necessary war material for our forces in the field has been seriously hampered by the failure to obtain sufficient labour and by delays in the production of the necessary plant, largely due to the enormous demands not only of ourselves but of our Allies. While the workmen generally, as I have said, have worked loyally and well there have, I regret to say, been instances where absence, irregular time-keeping, and slack work have led to a marked diminution in the output of our factories. In some cases the temptations of drink account for this failure to work up to the high standard expected. It has been brought to my notice on more than one occasion that the restrictions of trade unions have undoubtedly added to our difficulties, not so much in obtaining sufficient labour as in making the best use of that labour. I am confident, however, that the seriousness of the position as regards our supplies has only to be mentioned and all concerned will agree to waive for the period of the war any of those restrictions which prevent in the very slightest degree our utilising all the labour available to the fullest extent that is possible.
I cannot too earnestly point out that unless the whole nation works with us and for us, not only in supplying the manhood of the country to serve in our ranks but also in supplying the necessary arms, ammunition, and equipment, successful operations in the various parts of the world in which we are engaged will be very serioulsy hampered and delayed. I have heard rumours that the workmen in some factories have an idea that the war is going so well that there is no necessity for them to work their hardest. I can only say that the supply of war material at the present moment and for the next two or three months is causing me very serious anxiety, and I wish all those engaged in the manufacture and supply of these stores to realise that it is absolutely essential, not only that the arrears in the deliveries of our munitions of war should be wiped off, but that the output of every round of ammunition is of the utmost importance and has a large influence on our operations in the field.
The Bill which my noble friend the Leader of the House is about to place before your Lordships as an amendment

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to the Defence of the Realm Act is calculated to rectify this state of things as far as is possible, and in my opinion it is imperatively necessary. In such a large manufacturing country as our own the enormous output of what we require to place our troops in the field thoroughly equipped and found with ammunition is undoubtedly possible; but, my Lords, this output can only be obtained by a careful and deliberate organisation for developing the resources of the country so as to enable each competent workman to utilise in the most useful manner possible all his ability and energy in the common object which we all have in view, which is the successful prosecution and victorious termination of this war. I feel sure that there is no business or manufacturing firm in this country that will object for one moment to any delay or loss caused in the produce of their particular industry when they feel that they and their men are taking part with us in maintaining the soldiers in the field with those necessaries without which they cannot fight.
As I have said, the regular armament firms have taken on enormous contracts vastly in excess of their ordinary engagements in normal times of peace. We have also spread orders both in the form of direct contracts and sub-contracts over a large number of subsidiary firms not accustomed in peace time to this class of manufacture. It will, I am sure, be readily understood that when new plant is available for the production of war material those firms that are not now so engaged should release from their own work the labour necessary to keep the machinery fully occupied on the production for which it is being laid down as well as to supply sufficient labour to keep working at full power the whole of the machinery which we now have. I hope, my Lords, that this result will be attained under the provisions of the Bill now about to be placed before you.
Labour may very rightly ask that their patriotic work should not be used to inflate the profits of the directors and shareholders of the various great industrial and armament firms, and we are therefore arranging a system under which the important armament firms will come under Government control, and we hope that workmen who work regularly by keeping good time shall reap some of the benefits
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which the war automatically confers on these great companies. I feel strongly, my Lords, that the men working long hours in the shops by day and by night, week in and week out, are doing their duty for their King and country in a like manner with those who have joined the Army for active service in the field. They are thus taking their part in the war and displaying the patriotism that has been so manifestly shown by the nation in all ranks, and I am glad to be able to state that His Majesty has approved that where service in this great work of supplying the munitions of war has been thoroughly, loyally, and continuously rendered, the award of a medal will be granted on the successful termination of the war.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, last week we suspended Standing Order No. XXXIX, but the effect of the Motion expired with the week. I therefore beg to make the same Motion in respect of this week.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being suspended for the remainder of the week.—(The Marquess of Crewe.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

DEFENCE OF THE REALM (AMENDMENT) (No. 2) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
*THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, in rising to move the Second Reading of this Bill I may remind the House that by the Defence of the Realm Consolidation Act which became law towards the end of November power was granted to the Government to take over factories engaged in the manufacture of war material in the widest sense of that term—that is to say, not merely armour, cannon, or shells, but all the various supplies and munitions required for the troops serving His Majesty. This Bill, to which I ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading, extends a similar power to all factories of every kind for the same object and purposes. Its effects are to turn on to the production of

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war material all factories which may be capable of undertaking such work. It also gives the power to diminish the number of workshops devoted to other work, to close them altogether, or to remove plant from them to places where it may be more conveniently applied for the production of war material. It also gives the power to house workmen in unoccupied premises of different kinds where their labour is needed for this purpose and in places where there is no proper housing accommodation for them. It cannot be denied that a measure of this kind involves a tremendous interference with the free play of industry, with the free employment of capital, and with the free application of labour. We do not for a moment attempt to dispute the width of the area which is covered by such a measure as this. My noble and gallant friend behind me has explained the existing circumstances which in our opinion make this measure necessary, and he has done so speaking with an authority altogether unequalled, an authority which certainly none of his colleagues in the Government would attempt to claim to the same extent with which he is able to exercise it.
But there are one or two points arising out or the Bill on which, perhaps, I ought to offer some explanation to the House. I should like, in the first place, to point out that this is in the main a measure of organisation. It is, indeed, rather a measure of organisation than of the actual displacement of industry. That is a point which I would ask the House to bear in mind. And this means that; in bringing it into operation the Government desire to consult in all possible ways the manufacturers engaged in different kinds of production, and also those who are able in a representative capacity to speak for the workmen employed in these different branches of labour. We know, on the authority of a great political writer, that it is impossible to draw an indictment against a nation; it is usually almost equally unwise to draw an indictment against a class, and when my noble and gallant friend was speaking he made it quite clear that, although charges have been publicly brought and repeated both against those who supply the capital for manufactures and those engaged in labour, and although in some individual cases those charges may be taken to be wellfounded, yet it would be altogether unfair to bring charges of want of patriotism
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against either the class of employers or of employed.
For instance, it is altogether untrue to say of the manufacturers as a class, whether they be individuals or directors of limited companies, that they are thinking only of their profits and their dividends. On the contrary, I believe that among them there has been an almost universal desire to help in this great national crisis. But in many cases, just as we have seen in different branches of activity of a private kind, people who have desired to help have not really known how to set about it or where to begin, and for the provision of that information I hope that the passage of this measure may do something. Equally as regards the class of workmen. To bring against them general accusations of irregularity, of slacking off when wages are high, or of excessive drinking would, I believe, be altogether unfair. There have been such cases, but a general charge of that kind ought not to be made. I believe that especially in the ranks of skilled labour there has been an amount of loyalty and devotion to duty in giving extra work of which it is hardly possible to speak too highly. I have been told of one case—I have not got the actual facts before me—which occurred I think at Sheffield in some armour plate works where the shifts of some of the furnace men, owing to the intensely trying quality of the labour, are in normal times exceedingly short. These men, I was told, volunteered to double the length of their shift, at a cost not merely of great discomfort but I have no doubt of some positive danger to health. Those are admirable cases which we ought to remember when we hear general accusations of slackness or of imperfect work.
But it cannot be denied that there has existed a certain suspicion, as my noble and gallant friend pointed out, both in the ranks of the employers and of those of the employed, in which the other class respectively bas been involved. There have been suspicions on the part of some of the workmen that their employers were thinking exclusively of profit; there have been suspicions on the part of some of the employers that their men were anxious to do as little as they could provided they could earn a week's average wage. We hope that the general system of consultation and discussion which will take place

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as the result of the passing of this measure will do much to dispel on both sides those suspicions, unfounded in the main as we believe them to be, so far as they exist. Therefore, my Lords, even if it should prove as some have prophesied—I think Mr. Bonar Law made the statement in another place—that the actual transactions under a measure of this kind are not very numerous—and I think it is exceedingly difficult to say how numerous the actual transactions are likely to be—yet at the same time I venture to think that no small amount of solid national benefit may come from the passage of this measure.
We have been asked why, if an operation of this kind is likely to be beneficial, it was not undertaken before, and how it is that so many months have been permitted to pass without our having made some suggestion of this kind. That is not an unnatural question to ask, but I think that there are one or two considerations which may be adduced in reply. In the first place, if a suggestion of this kind, enormously drastic as we all agree that it is, had been made at a far earlier stage of the war I do not say that Parliament would have refused us the powers—because we most freely acknowledge the large attitude which the Opposition and the country generally have taken up in the matter of giving powers to the Government—but I think we should have run the risk of being told that we were grasping at a rather exuberant dictatorship without being able to produce sufficient data to justify us in demanding immense powers of this kind, and at that time it might not have been a very easy criticism to reply to. In the second place, it is only fair to point out that, altogether apart from this, the time of the War Office and also of the Admiralty has been taken up, as all the world knows, day and night with matters of urgent concern, and it is important to remember that there are limits even to the possibilities of devolution, and the mere operation of arranging and formulating a system of this kind, involving extensive devolution, is in itself a piece of very hard work, and it is not one which, in my judgment, we could have expected the two great Service Departments to have undertaken before this date.
Then, my Lords, there is a question to
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which I think my noble and gallant friend did not draw any special attention, naturally, as he was dealing with the purely military side of this demand which we are making—that of the degree and character of compensation which ought to be given to those who are adversely affected by the passage of this measure. The view of the Government, generally speaking, is this. We entirely agree that there is not and cannot be any room for that sort of vicarious patriotism which glows over the sacrifices made by other people for the sake of the country's good. If people individually are put to loss for the purposes covered by this Bill they ought not to suffer thereby. That is one side of the question. But, on the other side, we hold most distinctly that the ordinary methods of compensation for land taken for public purposes under the Lands Clauses Acts cannot be made to apply in these instances, and I am glad to know that this is not a question as between the two Parties or the two sides of the House, because I observed that in another place similar views were expressed by those who are in general agreement with noble Lords opposite.
It would never do for laymen like us to run our heads up against such arcana as the doctrine of eminent domain or such mysterious subjects as those, which I have no doubt are mere playthings to many noble and learned Lords in this House; but we do hold the view—I wish to make this quite clear—that it is not possible to admit a statutory or legal right of compensation for loss or damage suffered under this Bill. We do not in any way mean that people ought not to be properly compensated for loss which they suffer for the good of the country, but we are not prepared to embark on that vast ocean of litigation which would stretch before us if we were to attempt to include in this measure a statutory system of compensation for damage. There will be a strong Committee appointed to deal with all these matters and, indeed, to carry on the general negotiations with those who are likely to be affected. I am glad to believe that a most distinguished lawyer who is not a supporter of the Government—Mr. Duke—is likely to consent to preside over that Committee, and I have no doubt the House will agree that no more capable occupant of the post could be found. I am not in a position at this moment to

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give any of the other names of this small body or to give the terms of reference, which I had almost hoped I might have been able to do. Perhaps later in the debate I may be able to do so. This authority, of course, is set up in some measure to determine the principles upon which and the scope within which compensation ought to be paid to those who suffer loss.
I think anybody who has looked at the Bill will see that this measure is founded on the one principle which His Majesty's Government desire to enforce and which we wish to commend to the country—namely, that all persons should ask themselves, Does any particular action that is taken either publicly or privately, or does any abstention from action which might be taken, produce an effect for or against the prosecution of the war? It seems to me that this is the question which everybody ought to put to himself and herself with regard to any action either public or private, because I believe it to be the only genuine criterion for deciding whether any form of legislation or, indeed, any form of action in private life, is or is not desirable or admissible. That criterion applies to the intensely difficult question to which some passing allusion was made by my noble and gallant friend—that of the hours and conditions in which licensed premises ought to be opened. That is a question of great difficulty and complexity, and it is one upon which we of the comfortable classes are bound also to bear in mind what I have referred to as the doctrine of vicarious sacrifice—that it is very easy for us to deplore the mischiefs which may be caused by excessive hours for the opening of public-houses, we ourselves being, of course, altogether unaffected by those hours. But if we apply this test, Will the closing of licensed premises in certain areas for certain hours prove to be a definite help to the prosecution of the war by such means as the provision of material? then that becomes one of the questions which has to be faced.
Another question of the same sort to which a similar criterion applies is that of the restriction of the use of capital for a great number of purposes. The Government have thought it necessary to impose close restrictions upon the use of capital for private enterprise which in ordinary times we should desire most fully to encourage.
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We also restrict the use of capital for municipal improvements, often of the most desirable character in themselves and to which, again, in normal times we should give our full approval. We go further. We place close restrictions on the issue in London of capital by India, by the great Dominions, and by the Colonies for purposes altogether admirable in themselves, objects which would commend themselves to any thinking man. We do that, my Lords, in obedience to this same criterion—namely, because we hold that the locking-up of capital for long periods as the result of such issues is bound to have a prejudicial effect upon our national credit, which thereby becomes impaired; and the maintenance of the national credit in its full perfection is, of course, one of our main and principal objects.
Precisely the same criterion as to whether action or abstention from action is going to assist in the prosecution of the war may be applied to a great number of other things—to the continued existence of amusements of all kinds, to the carrying on of field sports to the opening of theatres, or to a subject which has, I observe, become one of much controversy, that of the continuance of racing; and I cannot help saying that, if the public attention had been more steadily fixed upon what I venture to call this ruling criterion by which we all ought to be bound, we should have been spared a certain amount of what I cannot help calling rather gushing correspondence on the subject of race-courses which we have seen in the columns of the public Press. I repeat that this criterion of keeping our eyes steadily fixed upon the prosecution of the war and seeing that we in our respective spheres and according to our respective capacities do everything in the world that we can to assist it and nothing in the world to hinder it, is the only criterion which at this moment is worth considering. Probably the most cherished single utterance in the whole of our national history is Nelson's great signal at Trafalgar. That signal is being repeated to-day, not merely to the men of the fighting Services, but to every man and to every woman in these islands it must be a continuous watchword throughout the whole progress of this war and until victory is achieved.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Marquess of Creue.)
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, we are all, I am sure, grateful to the noble and gallant Field-Marshal for the remarks with which he prefaced the speech of the noble Marquess who leads the House. The noble and gallant Field-Marshal has duties which render it out of the question that he should take a frequent part in our discussions, but for that very reason we appreciate it all the more when he is able to come here from time to time and tell us not only something of the progress of events at the Front but something of his own opinions with regard to high questions of policy such as those which are raised by the Bill now on the Table, and I am bound to say that a portion at any rate of the speech of the noble and gallant Field-Marshal seemed to me to be the gravest appeal which has yet been made to the people of this country in connection with the present war.
I will come in a moment to the Bill which the Secretary of State for India has moved. But perhaps before doing so I may be permitted to express the feeling of sympathy with which we heard the noble and gallant Field-Marshal's testimony to the conduct of the British troops who are upholding the honour of this country in the field. We civilians have no right to express opinions upon purely military points, but there are some things which I venture to think we can understand quite as well as any soldier. For example, we can realise that there are qualities displayed by men quite unknown to fame, of whose performances there is no record—qualities of fortitude and endurance under the most trying circumstances—which deserve every whit as much recognition and respect as the more brilliant and conspicuous acts which are from time to time recorded in the annals of this war. We rejoice to think that after long weeks and months of inaction, or, at any rate, of mainly defensive action, our troops should have lately been able to take the offensive and to take it with brilliant success. It is particularly satisfactory—most of all, perhaps, to those who, like the noble and gallant Field-Marshal and myself, have had to do with Indian affairs—to know that our Indian soldiers have lately acquitted themselves with so much distinction. Their performance in connection with the taking of Neuve Chapelle seems to have been highly creditable, and I am glad that the noble and gallant Field-Marshal has been able to
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bear witness to it. The same is true of the behaviour of our Canadian troops. We all felt sure that they were only waiting for an opportunity of distinguishing themselves. They have had the opportunity, and have availed themselves of it. May I also be permitted to say how much many of us appreciate the compliment paid by the noble and gallant Field-Marshal to the Territorial Forces now engaged at the Front. I think the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack must have felt a special thrill of satisfaction when he listened to those words, for we all know the part which he took in calling those Forces into existence.
The noble and gallant Field-Marshal also singled out for special praise the manner in which our Armies had been supplied with all the necessaries which they require. I venture to think that in the whole military history of this country there has never been a more remarkable feat than that which has been performed by those military departments to whom has been entrusted the supplies both of the new Armies at home and of the great Army at the Front. It is remarkable that from almost every quarter there comes to us testimony as to the admirable way in which our troops at the Front have been fed. One other point I noted, and that was what the noble and gallant Field-Marshal said as to the health of the troops. Nothing could be more satisfactory than that he should be able to give us such a report. And may I say how gladly I recognise the credit which he is able to give to the Royal Army Medical Corps? If I may be permitted to indulge in a reminiscence, I can recall the time when a considerable controversy arose as to the propriety of giving military rank to the members of that corps. I do not think anybody now will be found to get up and express a doubt as to the propriety of allowing these gallant men, who risk their lives like all the other officers of the Army, to enjoy the distinction which a military rank confers. It was also pleasant to hear the noble and gallant Field-Marshal give an encouraging account of the progress of our operations in the Dardanelles, and of the progress made by our gallant Allies the Russians in the Eastern theatre of war.
Now may I pass to the Bill which we are

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asked to read a second time to-clay. The noble Marquess who leads the House described it as one conferring enormously drastic powers upon His Majesty's Government and I do not think that the expression which he used was at all too strong, but the country is certainly not in a mood to challenge demands of this kind when they are put forward by His Majesty's Government in circumstances such as those which at present confront us merely because they are drastic. The noble Marquess expressed sonic doubt as to whether it would have been possible for him and his colleagues to ask for powers of this kind at an earlier stage in the progress of these hostilities. He anticipated that the demand might not have been so readily met if it had been preferred earlier in the day. These are matters of conjecture. All I will take leave to say is that these powers are not being asked for one day too soon. With regard to the principle involved in this Bill, I think it fair to recall that we are not altogether unused to the idea of these, in appearance, arbitrary interferences with the interests of private individuals. We have already passed several Bills under which very serious interferences with private interests are sanctioned. Under the Act which we passed in the last months of last year the Government of the day already has the power of appropriating the whole of the output of all shops and factories in which anything which can be described as munitions of war is being manufactured. I confess that, so far as the principle of the thing is concerned, I do not see very much difference between annexing the output of a factory in which munitions of war are made and annexing the output of any other factory. The principle seems to me to be exactly the same. What you have to consider is not the particular kind of thing which is manufactured in the particular shop, but the kind of interference with the individual to which you are driven to resort. Therefore so far as the arbitrariness of this measure is concerned I do not think we are going so very much further than we have already declared our readiness to go.
But, my Lords, I do think that it will be held by the people of this country that, while the most arbitrary interference is permissible, you are bound to deal as fairly as you can with the persons with
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whose interests you interfere. I noticed with some interest what was said by the noble Marquess upon the question of compensation. What I gathered from him was that, while His Majesty's Government were reluctant to admit a statutory right to compensation, they were not unprepared in principle to recognise that compensation was due where injury is done to individuals. I think that conclusion is inevitable. Under the Defence of the Realm Act of last year we have already introduced Regulations under one of which the owner of a factory or workshop whose output is taken from him may go to a Judge of the High Court to have the amount of compensation to which he is entitled fixed by that Judge. There was another Bill which we passed the other evening under which we gave the right to people whose animals or vehicles were taken from them of going to a County Court Judge to get their claims for compensation dealt with. And in this case there is an amount of interference for more violent titan any which is contemplated in either of these other Acts. You descend upon a perfectly innocent individual, a man who may be running a highly specialised industry; you invade his premises; you convert his plant and remove it if it does not suit you; and I must say that it seems to me quite obvious that you cannot altogether exclude the idea of compensation in such a case. What I take it we should all desire to avoid is the encouragement of exorbitant claims and also any arrangement under which these claims would be likely to involve the Government in prolonged litigation. The noble Marquess said, and said rightly, that the idea of having recourse in cases of this kind to the full-blown procedure of the Lands Clauses Acts would be impossible. I quite agree. But I venture to think it should be made clear—I should have thought it might have been made clear on the face of the Bill—at any rate it should be made clear by the language of Ministers that there is no question that we recognise the right of the individual to reasonable compensation in cases where he is a pecuniary sufferer by the action of His Majesty's Government. The noble Marquess was good enough to tell us that His Majesty's Government intended to set up a Committee for the purpose of dealing with these claims, and I feel sure that no better president for that body could be selected than the hon. Member of Parlia-

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ment whose name the noble Marquess mentioned—Mr. Duke. Perhaps the noble Marquess will consider whether the reference to the Committee might not be couched in terms which would leave no doubt as to the intention of the Government to give compensation, which I suppose would be described as reasonable compensation having regard to all the circumstances of the ease, whenever such compensation seemed to be desirable. I can only say that I hope in these respects this Bill will afford the means of making good a part of the leeway to which the noble and gallant Field-Marshal referred, and that he will be able to tell us before we are much older that there is no longer any disappointment with regard to the manner in which the orders given by His Majesty's Government are fulfilled by the contractors.
There is one other point in the Bill as to which I should like to say two or three words. It is, I think, quite clear that under this Bill His Majesty's Government intend to take power not only to deal with the plant in these factories and workshops but also with the labour employed in them. The speech of the noble and gallant Field-Marshal left us under no misapprehension on that point. I am bound to say that if that is the intention of His Majesty's Government they are to my mind amply justified in asking for powers to deal with that part of the case. I trust that it may not be found necessary to exercise those powers or to exercise them often, but if the occasion does arise I feel sure that they will be exercised fearlessly and without hesitation. I say this although I am one of those who have always in and out of this House stood up for the right of Labour to combine, who have always believed that our great trade unions, far from being a danger to the community, were really a source of safety to it. But while I hold those views as strongly as I ever held them, I feel that at a moment like the present there should be some power in the Government of the country to interfere if the circumstances require it. I can understand—we can all of us understand—that there should be in the minds of the men at times a feeling of weariness of long hours and of overtime, that there should be a suspicion that they are not getting the share to which they are entitled of the large profits which are undoubtedly being made at the present
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time in some cases; but I cannot help believing that differences upon such points as these should not be beyond our power to compose, and I have no doubt that under this Bill means will be found of composing them. It is to my mind intolerable that at a time like the present our productive powers should be in jeopardy of paralysis from causes of this kind. We congratulate ourselves upon the fact that, owing to our great superiority at sea and owing to our insular position, our factories and workshops have escaped the fate which has fallen upon factories and workshops in Belgium and in the North of France. But, my Lords, it is terrible to think that our great industries should run the risk of being sapped and destroyed by an enemy within our own gates, and that the ranks of that enemy should be recruited from those who are the brothers of the men who are giving their lives for us at the Front. I trust that this reproach will be removed. If it remains, and if His Majesty's Government have to deal with it, they will have the support of the country in dealing with it vigorously. At any rate, I feel sure that when the appeal which was made just now by the noble and gallant Field-Marshal to the workmen of the country comes to their knowledge, many of those who, as the noble and gallant Earl told us, really do not realise what kind of a struggle this country is engaged in, will see that the time has come when they must settle their differences with their employers by some means other than action which would arrest the industrial progress of the country and deprive it of things which are as necessary to it as the food upon which the people live or the munitions of war with which they defend themselves.
LORD JOICEY: My Lords, I was very glad to hear the weighty words which have just fallen from the noble Marquess with regard to this question, coupled with those contained in the speech of the noble and gallant Field-Marshal. I feel sure that those remarks will be read with interest, and will have great weight throughout the country. That in many parts of the country the people do not yet realise the position in which we are with regard to this war I have not the slightest doubt, and I am confident that the speech of the noble and gallant Field-Marshal as to the requirements which are necessary will do more to open the eyes of the country

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than perhaps anything that we have had put before us up to the present time.
This Bill has been well described as a most drastic measure. I doubt whether any powers have been asked from Parliament at any time in the history of this country so drastic as these. This Bill practically gives a blank cheque to His Majesty's Government to take over any works which they feel disposed to take over. There is no compensation mentioned, but it is left entirely to the Government to say what special compensation should be given. I realise the necessity for the demand which the Government are making. This is a time when everybody must make great sacrifices. All classes should realise their duty in the interests of our Empire, and when the facts are brought before the workmen of the country and they see the necessity for co-operating with their employers and the Government in getting the output up to the highest possible point, I cannot help thinking that the workmen will respond. I realise that there have been difficulties owing to the restrictions of the trade unions with regard to the output of the various industries, but if the trade unions were satisfied that the restrictions if removed now would not be removed permanently but only until the war is finished, I do not think that His Majesty's Government would have very much difficulty in inducing them to waive the restrictions which now operate so badly against production. I come into contact with workmen to a large extent, and I am happy to say that the two counties which I represent—Northumberland and Durham—stand highest of all the counties in Great Britain for the number of recruits they have sent to the Colours. Northumberland has sent no less than 33 battalions and Durham has sent 26. Surely you cannot accuse workmen of any disloyalty when they are prepared to come forward in that way. I cannot help thinking, therefore, that when once workmen generally realise the necessity of a Bill of this kind the noble and gallant Field-Marshal will get all the output that he requires.
Something has been said with regard to the delay in bringing forward this measure. I cannot help thinking that it would have been better if it had been
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brought forward earlier, because it would have had a great effect in opening the eyes of many people in this country to the serious position in which we are placed. To me it seems an extraordinary thing, when this country has probably the vastest productive power of any country in the world, that we should be deficient in ammunition, in guns, or in anything else that is required for military purposes. If the Government find that the present works which have been supplying munitions in time of peace are not equal to supplying them in time of war, surely they are justified in utilising some of the other works which have not been devoting their time to this kind of production. As soon as they saw they were likely to be deficient in munitions of war it would have been very much better had they brought forward a Bill like this, drastic though it is.
I was glad to hear the question of compensation so ably dealt with by the noble Marquess. Of course, you must give compensation in a reasonable way to any one individual or company, who suffers serious loss. These individuals pay their rates and taxes like everybody else, and the Government could not expect to get a special sacrifice from them without giving reasonable compensation. Let the burden be borne in a proper and fair way. I realise that if it were made a statutory obligation, unless it were very carefully hedged round, the demands would be exorbitant. We have seen in cases where the Government required land, houses, or property, that very often most exorbitant demands have been made. We do not want to have that in connection with this matter. But I hope that when the Committee is appointed it will be impartial and have full power to deal with compensation outside any Department of the State. I trust that it will take a reasonable and fair view of the serious losses which any particular individual may suffer owing to this great power which is given to the Government. There are many men who have worked the whole of their lives to get into their present position, and if he Government take over their works and apply them to other purposes these men will lose practically the whole benefit that they have been striving for all their lives. In many instances their good-will will be gone; their customers will have gone; and naturally they will suffer great loss.

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I do not ask for any unreasonable compensation, but I feel sure that any impartial Committee which had power to go into these matters would give what is reasonable and avoid giving an extravagant figure.
This is, as I have said, a great power which is being given to the Government. I fully recognise that this is a special time, and that we are in great difficulties, but I hope that this will not form a precedent in the future. It should be clearly recognised that the present is a special case owing to the serious condition in which the country is placed by this war, and the action now taken should not form a precedent should the Government wish to take over other industries at any other time. I am satisfied, too, that the Government will be very careful how these particular industries are managed. It is an easy matter to take over special works, but after all the duty of the Government is to consider whether by so doing they will increase the production above what it would probably be if the works remained in the hands of the various owners and those owners were asked to go in for the special productions that the Government required. I am not much of a believer in Government management of yards and works, and I hope that the Government will put this matter into the hands of some very able men to advise them or to control the works. On this will depend a great deal whether the concern is successful or not. It is like our great Army and Navy. Whether they are successful or not depends very largely upon the people who are at the head of them and control them. I hope that before the Government definitely fix into whose hands they will put these great powers they will see that they are men who are likely to justify the position and realise the Government's expectations. Many of the best men will not apply for these posts, but there are men who are managing great industries in the country, who have great reputations, and who could be got if they were asked to come and assist the Government in this matter. I hope that His Majesty's Government will not hesitate to go outside the ordinary applicants and ask some of those gentlemen, many of whom are pretty well known, to come forward in a time of emergency of this kind and render their valuable services to the Government.
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This Bill not only applies to the Army; it applies to the Navy as well, I gather. Many people in the country do not realise what our Navy is doing. I have myself heard many complaints. People are asking what the Navy is doing. My answer has always been that one of the chief things it is doing is that of protecting our trade routes, and that we have cheap food at the present time owing entirely to His Majesty's Navy. We have seen some little advance in prices with regard to various things that we import, but the increase is nothing to what it would have been had not the Navy been on the constant watch and protected our trade routes as admirably as it has done. There is one little suggest on I should like to make to His Majesty's Government. I see in subsection (2) of Clause 1 a provision to this effect—
"It is hereby declared that where the fulfilment by any person of any contract is interfered with by the necessity on the part of himself or any other person of complying with any requirement, regulation, or restriction of the Admiralty or the Army Council under the Defence of the Realm Consolidation Act, 1914, or this Act, or any regulations made thereunder, that necessity is a good defence to any action or proceedings taken against that person in respect of the non-fulfilment of the contract so far as it is due to that interference."
That is a very necessary subsection, but in my judgment it does not go far enough. It ought to apply to what has been done in the past, and I think if it were to be taken hack to apply to anything that had been done since the declaration of war it would remove many difficulties which are existing at the present time. Most employers are very anxious to assist the Government, but there are people who will not relieve their contractors from the covenants of their contracts because they have taken Government work. I hope that His Majesty's Government, when this Bill goes into Committee, will put in a clause to provide for that particular matter.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I am entirely in the hands of the House as to whether this Bill should be proceeded with now, or whether the Committee stage should be deferred until to-morrow, when there is some business on the Paper which will probably occupy a considerable time. I do not know whether there is any proba-

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bility that noble Lords will desire to put down Amendments on this Bill. My noble friend who has just spoken mentioned a particular point with reference to subsection (2) of Clause 1, the scope of which he thought might be somewhat extended. I did not precisely apprehend how far back my noble friend thought that the freedom given by this subsection ought to extend. He will observe that the subsection applies not merely to this Act but also to the Defence of the Realm Consolidation Act which became law on November 27 last. That was the first Act by which we had taken powers to interfere with the output of works supplying war material. Therefore I did not quite follow what my noble friend's desire was with regard to a further extension of this power. He could not, I think, have proposed that it should apply to engagements between parties which had no special reference to the supply of material to the Government. I should be glad if he would explain precisely what the point is.
LORD JOICEY: I want it to be retrospective to the beginning of the war; but, failing that, certainly retrospective to the time when the Government took the powers under the 1914 Act. This subsection, I imagine, only applies to any case which may arise after the present Bill is passed.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I think any contract under the Act of 1914 would be included.
LORD HAVERSHAM: My noble friend can attain his object by Changing the word "is" into "has been." The whole of the period of the war would then be covered.
LORD JOICEY: That is a matter for Committee. I hope the Government will give the point consideration.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: The point that my noble friend has raised is an important one, and therefore I think it would not be wise to proceed with the Committee stage at this moment, but to take it to-morrow, if the noble Marquess opposite agrees.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

CUSTOMS (WAR POWERS) RILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD STRACHIE): My Lords, this is a war emergency Bill. It is proposed that it should only remain in force, if your Lordships see fit to pass it, during the continuation of the war, and ipso facto it will come to an end at the conclusion of the war. An Inter-Departmental Conference sat to consider the question of trading with the enemy, and it was in consequence of the recommendations made by that Conference that this Bill is introduced. Although the Customs have great powers at the present moment to deal with goods which are exported from this country, yet there are small powers to deal with stores, and no notice is required to be given to the Customs in regard to stores being put on a vessel, for what purpose they are to be used, or their destination. Therefore we take power under this Bill to require that during the war the Customs shall have the same power as regards stores just as much as over goods. I can give your Lordships an instance of the necessity for this provision from the fact that not so long ago a ship was going from Swansea to Havre, and it took in stores at Swansea to the amount of 400 gallons of petrol notwithstanding that it was not a motor-boat and there was no reason to suppose that it would require petrol to that amount for any purpose. She was a neutral; it was known that in the direction in which she was going there were enemy ships which, might be supplied by that ship; yet there was no power for the Customs to interfere and prohibit her taking 400 gallons of petrol for a voyage from Swansea to Havre.
There is also a provision imposing a penalty upon coasting vessels leaving a port without proper clearance notice. That is also considered by the Customs to be important. Then there is another power which the Admiralty desire the Customs to have. Under an Order in Council while there is power for the Customs to prohibit neutral ships from conveying goods on bills of lading made out to order only, without any name of consignee, there is no power at the present moment for the Customs to apply a similar treatment to

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British ships. It is thought that it would be only fair to neutral countries that we should have power, if we think fit, to make this provision applicable to British ships as well. There is another important provision. Under this Bill the Customs may call upon any exporter to prove that goods that had been sent out to a neutral country had not reached the enemy, or at any rate had not reached the enemy with his connivance or consent. There is also power for the Customs to detain any suspected goods; and the last provision in the Bill gives power to seize all goods suspected as coming from the enemies' countries. I think that your Lordships will see that this Bill is one of great importance, and that it is desirable to pass it at the earliest possible moment. Therefore I hope your Lordships will allow me not only to take the Second Reading to-day but to pass it through all its subsequent stages.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Strachie.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, the noble Lord who has introduced this Bill repeated the story which the Attorney-General told the House of Commons the other day. I must say it is the most extraordinary confession which has ever been put by a Government before a nation at a time of crisis. What is the confession? It is that because the law was too weak a neutral vessel was allowed only two or three weeks ago to leave Swansea loaded with petrol which was known to be destined for German submarines that were hovering in the Channel. I do not care what the state of the law was. At the very worst the Government could have had an Act of Indemnity for stopping that petrol. Considering that Parliament has given the Government every power for which they have asked, I think it is an extraordinary thing that the Custom House authorities and the Admiralty between them, whatever the state of the law, should have allowed such a ship to leave our ports with such a cargo.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX) having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

IRISH POLICE (NAVAL AND MILITARY SERVICE) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

LEGAL PROCEEDINGS AGAINST ENEMIES BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, certain classes of cases have arisen and given considerable trouble in respect of contracts which have been entered into before the war but the operation of which is still pending. Legal questions arise as to the effect of the war upon these contracts, and at present the difficulty is that the person is often an alien enemy out of the jurisdiction of the Court. The Bill which I am submitting to your Lordships has been framed in consultation with the Judges to get over the difficulty and to allow substituted service under proper restrictions, and its operation is confined to obtaining the necessary declaration as to the effect of the war upon existing contracts. The Bill is a simple one. But there are one or two small Amendments which I wish to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendments are in Clause 1 to leave out "The Lord Chief Justice shall give directions" and insert "The Lord Chancellor may make such rules as he thinks fit." The purpose of these Amendments is simply this, that the proper authority to make the rule is to be the Lord Chancellor and not the Lord Chief Justice.
Amendments made: Bill passed, and returned to the Commons, and to be printed as amended. (No. 57.)

BRITISH PRISONERS IN GERMANY.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I rise to ask what steps are being taken by His Majesty's Government to obtain an independent Report on the treatment of British prisoners in Germany. The subject-matter of this Question has already been dealt with in another place but I make no apology for returning to it, because there is, I have reason to believe, considerable anxiety throughout the country with regard to the treatment of prisoners in Germany. In the second place there is an impression, which I cannot help thinking is a mistaken impression, that His Majesty's Government are unwilling to pursue the investigations and push them through thoroughly, in order not to embitter our relations with Germany. Personally I am unable to conceive of any circumstances which would further embitter the feeling of Germany towards this country at the present moment. Like presumably many other persons, I was disposed to think for a long time that these statements with regard to the treatment of British officers and soldiers in Germany were considerably exaggerated, and that impression was rather strengthened by the fact that I had come across instances of cases in which wounded British officers and men were treated with conspicuous humanity and skill by German medical officers. But as the war has progressed and as evidence has accumulated I think it is very difficult to resist the conclusion that this opinion was a somewhat too favourable one.
There are in Germany, as there are here, two categories of prisoners. There are interned civilians and there are prisoners of war. The interned civilians are, if I am not mistaken, all concentrated at Ruhleben. Ruhleben is a racing ground, and racing not being there considered so sacrosanct an institution as it is in this country, the racing stables have been converted to the use of prisoners who are lodged in the stalls, in the loose-boxes, and in the lofts. A letter appeared in The Times either of to-day or of Saturday describing the conditions, and it is evident that these lofts, stalls, and so on are greatly over-crowded, that the place is not properly heated, that the food is scanty unless the prisoners are able to purchase provisions at their own cost, that the sanitary arrangements are bad, and that there are many weak, infirm, and diseased people confined there; but it is only fair to say that there is no actual
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charge of ill-treatment. The only thing that one can say is that the treatment is, perhaps, more severe than might have been anticipated by persons whose only offence was that they were either residing in or passing through Germany at the outbreak of war; and it is perfectly safe to state that the conditions there are certainly less tolerable than in any analogous camps in this country.
Now as regards prisoners of war. According to the numerous letters and statements which have appeared, the ill-treatment of these prisoners began directly they were taken. We have all read only too frequently accounts of the neglect of the wounded and of the herding of wounded and unwounded men into cattle trucks, often of a filthy description. I am acquainted with an officer who was thrust with fifty-one companions into a covered truck. He was kept there for three days and nights, and in the course of the journey was ordered by a German officer, the commandant de place, to present himself at the open door of this truck. The German officer addressed to him a long speech composed entirely of abuse of British prisoners and of the British nation, and it was concluded by an injunction to one of the sentries who stood at the side of this officer to kick him. This action was ordered by the German officer, and was carried out apparently for the sole reason that the officer in question happened to be the senior British officer available. We must hope that instances of similar brutality are rare. But it seems to me that we cannot ignore the fact that evidence tends to show that the majority of British prisoners proceeding to their places of detention were treated with great harshness, that they were in many instances refused food and drink, and that they were exposed to the insults and outrages of the civilian population. I doubt whether there has been a similar exhibition of hostility on the part of one nation towards another for some considerable time, and it can only be described as an eloquent tribute to the success of that campaign of hate which has been so carefully organised in Germany against this country.
It may be said that all this is inevitable and inseparable from the conduct of a campaign; but unfortunately it appears that the ill-treatment of British prisoners was not confined to the journey towards

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their places of detention but was continued in many instances in the military hospitals and in the concentration camps where they were confined. I desire to make this statement as concise as I can, and therefore will say next to nothing about the case of officers. I think it is fairly plain that British officers have been much better treated than the men, and that they have less to complain of. I desire to draw attention mainly to the treatment of British soldiers, and above all to endeavour to impress upon the House that the treatment of the British soldier has been in many cases distinctly worse than the treatment of French and Belgian soldiers who were confined in the same place; and that to my mind is the really important part of the question. It may, perhaps, have been noticed that when I mentioned French and Belgian soldiers I omitted purposely the Russians, because, if my information is correct, the Russian soldiers have been in many instances treated as badly as our own.
It is perfectly easy to obtain information on the subject, not from what appears in the newspapers but at first hand. At the present moment there are a number of wounded officers and men who have recently arrived in this country, and who have been exchanged because they were considered unfit for further service. I, like I dare say other members of this House, have taken the trouble to visit many of these men and hear their stories, and I have examined a number of men who have been imprisoned at various places in Germany, including, for instance, such places as Münster, Düsseldorf, Duisburg, Salzwedel, Halberstadt, Bielefeld, Mülheim, Wüzburg, Magdeburg, Dortmund, Aix, and Cologne, and the conclusion to my mind is absolutely irresistible that there has been, with the exception of certain places, of which Würzburg is one, discrimination as between British soldiers and French and Belgian soldiers, and that discrimination apparently extends to their treatment not only in the hospitals but in the concentration camps as well. In the hospitals in Germany—if what these men state is correct, and I have no reason to doubt their veracity—the French and the Belgian soldiers were better fed, were treated with greater consideration, and were allowed certain small comforts and privileges. On the other hand, the English prisoners, so far as my informants' ex-
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perience went, were apparently treated with absolutely undisguised hatred and contempt. They were neglected and were subjected to a series of petty insults and bullying, which in some cases even took the malignant form of operations being performed on British soldiers without anæsthetics, whereas anæsthetics were administered to the men of other nationalities.
As regards the question of the concentration camps, I have been informed by a certain number of these men that they were discharged from the hospitals still suffering or, at all events, not properly cured of their wounds, and that when they were put into the concentration camps they were made to work although in no case was work exacted from the French and the Belgians. And as in the hospitals so in the concentration camps the English soldiers, if what they state is correct, were habitually worse fed; they were left in a disgusting state of filth; they were denied the small privileges which were accorded to their fellow-prisoners, and if there was any particularly repulsive work to perform they were always the men selected to do it. It is evident that the conditions vary in different camps, but one cannot help feeling a very strong suspicion that instructions have emanated from high quarters to subject British prisoners to what I can only term a course of vindictive bullying.
I said that I was not going to say much about the case of the officers, but there is a case to which I feel bound to refer, and that is an incident which took place at the prisoners' camp at Crefeld. Crefeld was visited by an officer of high rank who commanded the district, Baron von Bissing—I understand he has a brother who is enjoying the hospitality of this country at this moment. General von Bissing visited this camp and made a speech to the British officers in which he indulged in violent denunciations of this country. He wound up by saying that they were too comfortable, and that he should see that they were made less comfortable. These British officers were considerably crowded, but were kept together. Well, as the result of Baron von Bissing's instructions the officers were divided and Russian officers were placed with the English officers for the reason that the Russian officers could speak no French, and therefore there were no means

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of inter-communication between the two. That is an action of petty and malignant spite which seems almost incredible, but which I know to be absolutely true.
Now, the object of this conduct is plain enough. The object of the German authorities who have subjected our officers and men to such treatment is not only to wreak vengeance upon these unfortunate persons but to show our Allies that we are the real enemy, and that we are the people who are really responsible for the tragedy of the present war. It is quite easy, as I have already said, to test these allegations at first hand. I believe that certain steps have already been taken in that direction, and I confess that it seems to me that the case for an independent inquiry is evident. Our conscience with regard to this question is perfectly clear. We have nothing whatever with which to reproach ourselves. We have nothing to conceal. We, I imagine, are prepared to court the fullest investigation. I imagine that there would be no objection raised in this country if the Germans desired to send a purely German commission over here in order to visit and report upon the prisons and concentration camps. As a matter of fact, an official or a semi-official emissary has been over here from Germany who has visited the concentration camps, and if I am not mistaken his report was entirely favourable. Of one thing I feel quite certain, and that is that if any German mission came over here with the object of investigating and reporting upon the conditions of the German prisoners in this country they would certainly admit that there is no discrimination here between one nationality and another, and that a German is treated precisely in the same way as, say, an Austrian, a Hungarian, or a Turk.
There are many people in this country, with whom I totally disagree, who urge what is called retaliation. I disagree with a proposal of that kind for two reasons. In the first place, it is contrary to our traditions, and contrary, I might almost say, to the practice of civilised nations. In the second place, it appears to me that it would only produce a disastrous result. The people who urge retaliation upon German prisoners in this country seem to me to be under a complete misapprehension of the German spirit. A very distinguished man, no less a person than the French
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Commander-in-Chief, General Joffre, remarked to me some months ago, "The German spirit as displayed in this war is quite different from the spirit displayed in 1870." It must be clear to everybody by this time that the Germans are largely hoping to win by the sheer force of terrorising nations and individuals, and for my part I decline altogether to believe that the German Government is much concerned over the fate of their own prisoners. My impression is that these prisoners are looked upon by them as wreckage, that they are considered as so much lost capital which need no longer be considered; and the only effect of our retaliating upon German prisoners in this country would be to afford them, if they chose it, an excuse for exhibiting greater inhumanity towards such prisoners of our nationality as they held in their hands. In my humble opinion the only thing which is likely to exert any real influence over the procedure of the German Government in this matter is the intervention of a powerful neutral State—in other words, the intervention of the United States. I believe that the mere announcement that the American Government had agreed to send an independent representative to report upon the condition of British prisoners in Germany would at once cause a material improvement in their treatment. I do not think that we can well exaggerate the services which the American Government has rendered to this country during the war. I do not think that we can show ourselves too grateful for what the American Government has done for us, not only in Europe but also in other parts of the world. Considering what they have done, it might seem almost ungracious to ask them to do something else. But I submit that there would be justification in asking them to undertake the task which I have just suggested on the simple grounds of humanity and justice.
I believe that His Majesty's Government have been negotiating for some considerable time, for some months, in the endeavour to obtain an inquiry of some kind; and judging from what fell from the Under-Secretary in the House of Commons the other day, I gather that negotiations are going on with regard to the engagement of a number of American quartermasters whose special business it shall be to see that British prisoners receive the food which is sent to them and to which they

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are legitimately entitled. This may be a sound and practical suggestion, and it may result in an improvement in these unfortunate men's conditions; but without being too presumptuous I venture to express the opinion that a scheme of this kind is not quite sufficient. I should be the last person who would desire to embarrass the Foreign Office in any way, but I think we have the right to demand that every effort should be made by the Government to secure that a prisoner of war in Germany should not be treated worse than another man merely because he happens to be of British nationality.
LORD GRENFELL: My Lords, I desire to support the statements which have been made by my noble friend Lord Newton. As several men of my own regiment have returned with those so grievously wounded that they are unfit for service, I went to Millbank the day after they arrived and had an opportunity of hearing their stories. These men were not young soldiers; they were mostly men of the Reserve—good old soldiers, who were quite prepared to take the rough with the smooth. But some of the stories they told me—and I feel perfectly certain they were true—were so dreadful that I should hardly like to repeat them to your Lordships. I will only mention one case, that of a man who had been severely wounded. On one side two ribs had been carried away, and his right arm after several operations was eventually amputated. Yet on arrival at the place in which he was to be interned as a prisoner he was absolutely given over to the fury of the mob. This man told me that he was pushed about and his clothes torn, and his guard stood by laughing and enjoying it. When he was almost in a state of collapse they interfered and took him away. The men stated that in France and Belgium they were well treated. Of the hospitals there and of the doctors attached to them they had no complaint whatever. It was only when they arrived in Germany, and when they got especially to Prussia, that they met with insult and injury; and, as my noble friend has stated, discrimination was made between them and the men of other nationalities who were prisoners.
There is another question which the noble Lord has not touched upon. I have received many communications from depôts, from regimental committees, and
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from private people that I am anxious to mention it to your Lordships' House. I refer to the question of money, and parcels containing food, clothing, and other things. Enormous quantities of the latter are sent from various organisations, and in some places very few of them appear to arrive. In the case of His Majesty's Guards I have had letters in which I have been told that the committee has sent off numberless parcels with food and clothing, but in the greater number of cases the parcels have not been delivered. I saw to-day at the Bar of the House an officer who had come to listen to the proceedings. I asked him whether he had had any experience in this matter, and he told me of a colonel in his regiment who had been in prison for many months. His relations and the regimental organisation had sent him parcels almost without number, and during a period of some months he had never received a single one. The real fact is that in Germany there appears to be no settled system regarding the feeding or the treatment of the prisoners. Some of the men told me that they were well treated; others said they had perfectly different rations from those given to the men to whom I had spoken before; and it seems to be left to each commandant to treat these unfortunate British soldiers in whatever way they please.
I sincerely trust that some public inquiry will be made. I think it would be an advantage if the German people were to know—if it ever could possibly get to them—the manner in which our men have been treated. I am sure we are most grateful to American gentlemen for the way they have worked. I have spoken to some, and in some cases they have found it absolutely impossible to assist our unfortunate men in any way. I think, my Lords, that there really is a necessity for en inquiry into this matter. I agree with Lord Newton that we could not possibly descend to reprisals upon the German soldiers who have fought for their country by treating them in the way that our officers and men have been treated in Germany.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I should like to be allowed to add a few words. I am grateful to Lord Newton for calling atten-

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tion to this matter. I feel that every one in the House must realise how urgently important it is that we and neutral States also should know at this moment what are the facts as to the treatment in Germany of those who are there as prisoners, whether belonging to our own nationality or to our Allies. I hope to hear from the noble Earl who will reply on behalf of the Government to-night that the efforts are likely to prove successful which have, as I understand, been made in the hope of obtaining the leave of Germany for an independent inspection of the facts and an independent report upon the condition of the camps and of the prisoners. The very fact of an inquiry being made would, I am quite certain, do very real good. In England we have had, formally or informally, more than one inquiry, and I am quite certain of the gain which has resulted in the satisfaction to British people of knowing that our honour is being rightly maintained as regards the treatment we are giving to those who are in our power in their helpless condition; and further, I am certain that what has now been reported must be giving satisfaction outside our own country. Your Lordships are aware that a semi-formal inquiry has been made into our own camps and prisons and places of restraint by a representative of the United States who is familiar also with Germany, and that his satisfactory testimony is based on the investigation which he was specially competent to make.
But what is, I think, still more important, is the Report which some of your Lordships, I dare say, have seen—the Report now issued on behalf of the International Red Cross Committee, which has been drawn up by the two representatives who visited the camps in England, M. Ed. Naville and M. V. van Berchem. M. Naville I had the advantage of seeing several times while he was in England. No more competent or impartial investigator could possibly have been chosen, and I am sure your Lordships who have got his Report will share with me the satisfaction I feel in finding that, with regard both to the military and civilian camps, after bringing forward all the criticisms he thinks it right and necessary to bring, he says that the impression left on his mind in each case is perfectly satisfactory. He points out that there were difficulties which had not at the moment of his visit been completely
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overcome, but all of which were in process of being overcome at the very time when he was there. One of the main complaints or criticisms which occurs in almost all camps relates to a practical inconvenience certainly not peculiar to those interned, and that is a complaint about the occasional delay in the receipt of letters from abroad. That is a complaint current in most camps; and the very fact that they complain that the letters take fortnight to be delivered, of itself shows the nature of the conditions existing when that delay in postal arrangements is the worst complaint they can make. The Report on the whole is, to my mind, extremely satisfactory reading for us who have so earnestly desired that everything that is right should be done as regards the treatment of the prisoners. One interesting point in the Report made by these two independent foreigners which I think ought to be dwelt upon is the perfect freedom which was allowed by the authorities in London to these Swiss and German gentlemen in making their inquiries. They were allowed to go without any notice to every camp; no kind of restriction was placed upon their interviews with the prisoners interned; no Englishman was there present while the interviews took place; they conversed with the prisoners with absolute freedom wherever they desired to do so; and they express in the introductory chapter of their Report their cordial recognition of the absolute readiness on the part of the authorities, both central and local, to facilitate their inquiries in every way. Nothing could be more satisfactory than that, and the few suggestions which they made are receiving, as I know, at this moment the most careful attention, and some of them had been already remedied before the Report was made public.
There are two points upon which I desire, from some personal knowledge of the matter, to say a word. One is with regard to a point dwelt upon by M. Naville in his Report—the question of religious ministration to those who desire it in the camps. Some might feel, in face of difficulties so urgent and pressing as those of camp life, that the religious demand would come second to the supply of physical necessities. I do not wish to express any opinion about that. But this is certain. In the enforced leisure in the camps there are necessarily times of

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the extremest depression, anxiety, and discomfort other than the purely physical, and those are the moments when it is particularly desirable that those who feel the need for it should have such ministry given to them as they may wish for. I have been in communication with the Foreign Office and even with some persons in Germany with regard to the possibility of securing in Germany anything at all corresponding to what we have already been able to secure in England. In the English camps, I believe I am right in saying, there is not at this moment one single camp in which we are not ministering to Germans in German and for the most part by Germans themselves. That has been a matter of great difficulty to arrange, because the number of persons who are able to minister competently in German and who are sufficiently free from other duties to be able to render this service is not very large, and I think it redounds to the credit of those who have taken it in hand that such good results have been achieved. Arrangements are being made for the German Lutherans, German Roman Catholics (where there are any), and others to whom it can be possible to minister in our camps in England to-day. Whether anything corresponding to that is being satisfactorily done in Germany is at present most doubtful. There is one heroic man working in and around Berlin, Dr. Williams, the chaplain there, who has been allowed through the friendliness of the German authorities free access to some of the camps in that neighbourhood, and I have direct testimony to the great value which is attached to the ministrations he has been able to give. I venture to hope that in that matter as well as in other matters—I know the Foreign Office are considering it—the success that has attended our endeavours in England may be emulated in the camps in Germany. There is no difficulty in furnishing in any number the necessary clergy provided they can obtain the leave of the German authorities to have access to the camps. We have quite a number of good and capable men ready to start at a moment's notice who would minister to those who are in the camps in our own language.
I past to the other point. I am very anxious to be allowed to endorse what has been said by both the noble Lords who have spoken as to the question which has
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been sometimes raised of retaliation or reprisal on our part in view of the indisputable hardships and wrongs which have come to light as having happened in Germany. The records given to us tonight correspond very largely with what had already reached me, though I had heard more favourable accounts than the two noble Lords gave as regards the actual treatment of our wounded soldiers in the hospitals. I think it is fair to say that Iat least have had no intimation, though receiving communications on the subject, of the kind of hardship to our wounded in the hospitals to which reference has been made to-night. But with regard to the journeys from the places where the men were taken prisoners to their ultimate destination, or from one place of internment to another, or again with regard to the differentiation made by the Germans between British prisoners and French and Belgian prisoners in kindness of treatment accorded—as to those matters I am afraid it is difficult to think there is any doubt at all. If the facts are misrepresented, it is in the power of the German authorities to have the misrepresentation set right. I am absolutely sure that there are thousands of good men and women in Germany to whom it would be as detestable as it is to ourselves that these cruelties and wrongs should be tolerated. But whatever be the result of any independent inquiry, however dark be the picture such inquirers are able to paint, I hope that this country will not go one step forward in the direction of anything like reprisal or retaliation. To my mind nothing could be more contrary to the honourable traditions of English history or more foreign to the principles which should actuate us in matters of this kind, principles both of religion and of civilisation generally. There are many ways in which this war may possibly do harm to England and the English people, but one disaster would be greater than any other that I can imagine. I mean this, and I say it with my whole heart. If once we became infected with a lower spirit and adopted a lower ideal in these matters by imitating bad habits and bad ways of which we might hear elsewhere it would be the worst misfortune that the war could bring upon us. At present I believe we are being actuated in our whole treatment of those who are now under restraint in our land by the firmest determination that no endeavours shall be spared to alleviate for them to the utmost

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the tedium of what must necessarily be a time of extreme trial; and I trust that whatever revelations as to the treatment of our own countrymen in Germany may come to light we shall resist with scorn the temptation to retaliate or to do anything which is unworthy of our traditions, unworthy of our ideals, or lowering to that self-respect which is an honourable asset in our country's life.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, it is not surprising that the noble Lord opposite should have raised this question, because I am sure every member of your Lordships' House must feel a very real sympathy with the prisoners who are now in Germany and with the deep anxiety which their relatives must have especially in view of such distressing stories as those to which we have listened from the noble and gallant Field-Marshal. The noble Lord who generally answers for the Foreign Office is unfortunately unwell, and is unable to take part in this discussion. I hope, therefore, that the noble Lord opposite will excuse me if I confine myself to the Question which he has on the Paper and do not discuss the various other matters which have been merged into the debate. Heartily as I agree with his remarks upon retaliation, I shall abstain from following him or the most rev. Primate in what was said on that subject.
As the noble Lord said, this matter has already been discussed in another place, and I do not suppose that he will be surprised to hear that I have nothing new to tell him. In view of the conflicting reports which had reached His Majesty's 'Government, mainly from private sources, as to the condition of internment of British prisoners of war, a proposal was made some time ago through the United States to Germany that United States officials, lent by their own Government for the purpose, should be in permanent touch with the commandants of the various camps, and that they should generally supervise the distribution of relief to the British prisoners of war. As no answer could be obtained from the German Government to this proposal, His Majesty's Government then requested the United States Government to obtain permission
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from the German Government for an American representative, selected by the United States Embassy in London, to proceed to Germany and visit the camps in which British prisoners were interned, just in the same way as Mr. Jackson from the United States Embassy in Berlin visited the camps in the United Kingdom. There is now, however, reason to hope that the German Government will accept the proposal of His Majesty's Government for the adoption of the permanent scheme which has been outlined. It is believed that this will afford better guarantees for the proper treatment of British prisoners of war than a cursory inspection of prison camps.
It is quite evident to those of your Lordships who have followed the discussion that the noble Lord who asked the Question has evinced a great deal of interest in the matter and taken a great deal of trouble with regard to the presenting of the case to your Lordships. Will he allow me to suggest that he should be good enough to indicate to the Foreign Office the results of his inquiries? I am sure they will be glad to have them at first hand; and I venture to hope that if he repeats his inquiry at a later period in this House we may have a better account to give him of the treatment of British prisoners of war in Germany.
LORD NEWTON: May I suggest that a much simpler course would be that the men should give the evidence themselves rather than that I should supply the information.

DEFENCE OE THE REALM (AMENDMENT) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, it is suggested that the House should meet at half-past three o'clock to-morrow afternoon. I understand that that is considered generally convenient.
House adjourned at five minutes before Seven o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.