Lords Sitting of 10 March 1915

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Bristol Tramways. [H.L.]
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

LINCOLN CORPORATION BILL.
Report from His Majesty's Attorney-General received and ordered to lie on the Table.

BRISTOL TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
Second Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off till To-morrow.
ORMSKIRK GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
PRESCOT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
SUTTON DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
ROTILERHAM CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
SHEFFIELD CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS) BILL. [H.L.]
SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
WOLVERHAMPTON CORPORATION WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; (viz.),

D. Wellington (Chairman),

L. Latymer,

L. de Mauley,

L. Armstrong,

L. Lyell;

agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on the second silting day after the Recess at Easter, at Eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.
ALTRINCHAM GAS BILL. [H.L.]
BRIGHTON AND HOVE GAS BILL. [H.L.]
WARWICK GAS BILL. [H.L.]
NORTHWICH GAS BILL [H.L.]
SUNDERLAND CORPORATION (WEAR-MOUTH BRIDGE) BILL. [H.L.]
FRIMLEY AND FARNBOROUGH DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
SOUTH SHIELDS CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
YORKSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; (viz.),

E. Clarendon,

E. Eldon,

V. Falkland,

L. Hylton (Chairman),

L. Avebury;

agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on the second sitting day after the Recess at Easter, at Eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.

PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lords following be proposed to the House as the panel of Lords to act as Commissioners under the Act, viz.:

L. Torpichen;

L. Stewart of Garlies (E. Galloway);

L. Wemyss (E. Wemyss);

L. Ashton of Hyde;

agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly.

IRISH POLICE (NAVAL AND MILITARY SERVICE) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; mid to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord President (E. Beauchamp)). (No. 44.)
NATIONAL INSURANCE (PART I. AMENDMENT) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Strachie). (No. 45.)
NAVAL DISCIPLINE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Emmott). (No. 46.)
NAVAL MARRIAGES BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Emmott). (No. 47.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 48.)

DENNY'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHNIORE in the Chair.]
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): This Bill has been before your Lordships sitting judicially, and I move that the Amendments agreed to be made.
EARL LOREBURN: Are these the Amendments that have been consented to in accordance with the direction of their Lordships sitting judicially?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Yes.
Amendments made: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Amendments reported: Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

DEFENCE OF THE REALM (AMENDMENT BILL.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Before your Lordships proceed further with the business on the Paper, perhaps I might be permitted to make a statement with regard to one of the Bills which appear there. By a misfortune, not the fault of the officials of this House, the wrong Bill has been printed. The Defence of the Realm (Amendment) Bill which appears on the Order Paper for Second Reading to-day is purported to be printed, but what is actually printed is the Defence of the Realm (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, which is quite a different measure. In those circumstances I cannot ask your Lordships to proceed to-day with a Bill which has not been printed. The print of the Bill on the Order Paper to-day will be in your Lordships' hands this evening, and I suggest that it should be put down for Second Reading to-morrow, and then it will be for your Lordships to judge whether or not you will take all the stages on that day. If you think on the Second Reading that we have discussed every point and there is substantial agreement, then possibly it would be convenient to take the other stages on the same day; but if not, we can either have a Friday sitting or take the subsequent stages on Monday. But I propose to ask your Lordships to defer judgment upon that point until you have the real Bill before you and are able to form an opinion as to whether or not it is necessary that two days should be taken.

ALIENS AND PILOTAGE.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE THE EARL OF SELBORNE rose to call attention to the reply of Lord Islington on February 24 on the subject of certificates of pilotage held by Germans in the United Kingdom, and to ask whether the Board of Trade will henceforth confine the grant of certificates of pilotage for the River Thames and the coasts of the United Kingdom to natural born British subjects.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, there was an old-standing controversy between many naval officers and the Board of Trade in past years as to whether the Board should issue certificates of pilotage to other than natural born British subjects,

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but the Board of Trade up to the time of the war had always refused to withhold these certificates from aliens. On February 24 last I asked the noble Lord the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies a question as to the number of certificates of pilotage for the River Thames or for any part of the United Kingdom held by German or Austrian subjects at the time of the declaration of war, and his answer was that five pilotage certificates for the London district and three for the Humber were held by German subjects. It is obvious that those pilots may conceivably have been of real use to the German Admiralty, or they may be during the course of this war. We hope not. But it cannot be otherwise contended than that the existence of German subjects with such a knowledge of our coastal waters might, in conceivable circumstances, be a very important matter in the eyes of the German Admiralty. I ask His Majesty's Government whether, in the light of the experience of this war, the Board of Trade are not prepared to reconsider this question. I do not wish to go into it at length to-night. I merely desire to ascertain what the attitude of the Government is, and whether the Board of Trade are still of opinion that it is a wise policy to issue certificates for pilotage in respect of our ports and coastal waters to other than natural born British subjects.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD ISLINGTON): My Lords, I am hopeful that the formal answer which I hold in my hand from the Board of Trade will sufficiently reply to the question put by the noble Earl, but if there is any further point, after I have read this answer, upon which he desires information I shall be very pleased to explain it if it lies in my power to do so. So far as the information of the Board of Trade goes, there are only ten naturalised British subjects out of a total of 2,538 masters and mates holding pilotage certificates, and of these none are of German or Austrian birth. The Board have no power to deprive naturalised British subjects of rights to which they, in common with British born subjects, are entitled. Since December 10, 1914, all pilotage certificates granted to masters and mates by the Corporation of Trinity House, London, for the London pilotage district have been suspended until further notice, and this is the case also in other districts.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: With great respect to the noble Lord he has not answered my question, which was this—whether the Board of Trade will henceforth confine the granting of certificates of pilotage for the River Thames and the coasts of the United Kingdom to natural born British subjects.
LORD ISLINGTON: The latter part of my answer met time question put by the noble Earl—namely, that all grants of pilotage certificates were suspended on December 10 and Will continue so during the duration of the war. A master or mate of a ship in possession of a pilotage certificate and who hitherto, in such possession, could steer his ship into any of the ports for which he had that certificate, no longer can do so during the war, and the ship will have to employ a pilot with a licence.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: That only answers a small part of my question. What the noble Lord has told me is that the Board of Trade have suspended for the rest of the war the issue of such certificates. I am glad to hear it. But I want to know whether the Board of Trade are prepared for the future, after the war, to discontinue the grant of certificates of pilotage to aliens.
LORD ISLINGTON: Under the Pilotage Act, 1913, it was laid down, in Section 23, that a certificate should not be granted to a master or mate of a ship unless he is a British subject. There are, however, exceptions to that under the 1913 Act. If the noble Earl will look at Section 26, I think it is, he will see that certain renewals of certificates may be allowed to those who, prior to the year 1906, had such certificates; but in a subsequent schedule of the Act it will be found that in those cases where renewals are allowed to masters and mates who are other than British subjects they are only granted over a comparatively limited area. In Section 24, subsection (2), there is a long list of ports in respect of which masters and mates who are aliens are excluded from this privilege. Under the 1913 Act the only certificates allowed to aliens are those which the pilotage authorities grant in the form of renewals to men who had certificates previous to 1906, and, as I have said, the certificates are confined to a limited area, the holders being debarred from going into the ports named in the schedule to the Act.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I am obliged to the noble Lord for his answer, and if he will be good enough to send me the reference I shall be glad.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: The answer given by the noble Lord the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, as I understood it, related to British subjects, but the question put to him by the noble Earl was whether the Board of Trade would in future confine the grant of certificates of pilotage to natural born British subjects. That is a much tighter definition, and refers to quite a different class of men.
LORD ISLINGTON: As I explained in the formal answer which I gave just now, the Board of Trade have no power to deprive naturalised British subjects of rights to which they, in common with British born subjects, are entitled.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: The noble Earl asked whether the Board of Trade would hereafter confine these certificates to natural born British subjects. That is a point which the noble Lord has not touched.

PRIZE MONEY.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I rise to ask the noble Marquess the Leader of the House when he will be in a position to answer the Question on the subject of the Prize Claims Committee which is already on the Notice Paper.[†] Since I placed the Question on the Paper I have had communications from a good many quarters, which show that I was not wrong in thinking that this is a matter of very general interest.
[†] To ask His Majesty's Government whether it is true that they have set up a Prize Claims Committee to consider of a distribution to individuals, whose claims have been rejected by the Prize Court, of portions of Prize Money; and if so, whether they can inform the House what are its qualifications, and what cases in respect of what vessels and of what persons are now under consideration by that Committee; and whether it is intended that while all Prize Money is withheld from the officers and men of the Navy, part of it shall be distributed to persons selected by the Prize Claims Committee.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, I quite agree that the subject mentioned in the noble Earl's Question is one which excites a great deal of general interest. There is a sort of historical flavour attaching to Naval Prize which causes a great number of people to be interested in the subject besides those immediately concerned. The question is not only one of importance but it is also one, as I have no doubt the noble Earl recognises, of considerable complexity, and it affects more than one Department of the State. But if the noble Earl will put his Question on the Paper for to-morrow I shall hope to be able to give him an answer by then.

UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES (EMERGENCY POWERS) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this is a Bill which is outside the region of Party controversy. Probably no institutions in the country of a civilian kind have rendered to the State in a great emergency services greater than those of the two old Universities. In the case of Oxford and Cambridge alike two-thirds of the undergraduates are serving in His Majesty's Forces. They have either passed through the Officers Training Corps and taken commissions or have volunteered in other ways and are serving the King on the field and in preparation to go to the field. That is a splendid example. Of all the difficulties connected with the British Army under the voluntary system perhaps the greatest was the deficiency in officers, notably in subaltern officers, but the Officers Training Corps of the Universities have nobly assisted in making up that deficiency. Lord Kitchener has been able to keep the Army well supplied with officers to fill vacancies caused by casualties and the creation of new units, and he has been able to do this largely owing to the exertions which have been made by the graduates and undergraduates of Oxford and Cambridge and of the other Universities who have without stint given their services to the Crown.
I think we all appreciate what this means. It means that the Army secures the services of some of the most promising

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and talented of the younger citizens of the State, whose enthusiasm has been applied to filling up the gap that most needs filling up under the Army system. There were some of us connected with the organisation of the Officers Training Corps who felt with confidence that this would be so, but even those who had most to do with the matter have been astonished at the splendid and noble response which the Universities have made in time of war to the invitation issued to them long ago in time of peace. I have not the honour of being a member of either of the two great Universities but I have been intimately connected with their military affairs, and nothing has impressed me more than the quantity as well as the quality of talent which has been placed at the disposal of the country by the response which has been made to our appeal.
This Bill proposes to do two things. It enables borrowing to make up deficiencies caused by the tremendous strain on the resources of the Universities through the absence of students and the non-payment of fees. It proposes also that the Universities and the colleges of the Universities should have power to make statutes unrestrained by certain conditions which operate for delay under the existing arrangements. In both cases the exercise of the new powers is safeguarded. In the first place, they are only emergency powers daring the duration of the war. In the second place, the borrowing can only take place with the permission of the Board of Agriculture, as it deals with landed subjects. In the third place, certain consents are required. That is the substance of this Bill, and I venture to commend it to the House as a measure which well deserves our warm and whole-hearted approval.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I feel sure that the Bill which the noble Viscount has just proposed to the House will not encounter any opposition from this side at all events. During this war every class of the community has been called upon to submit to sacrifices, sometimes to very heavy sacrifices, and the two great Universities of Oxford and Cambridge have not escaped. They have had heavy calls made upon them, and they have met those calls nobly. That is true, I think, both of the teaching staff of the Universi-
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ties and of the students. I was glad to note that the noble and learned Viscount referred particularly to the immense value of the Officers Training Corps at the two Universities. We all know that one of the greatest difficulties with which the country has had to contend as the war went on has been that of keeping up a sufficient supply of young officers. That difficulty has been to a great extent solved by the action of the Officers Training Corps. The least Parliament can do in recognition of those great services is to give the two Universities whatever facilities we can give them to meet the emergency which they have to face. The proposals in this Bill seem to us appropriate, and we gladly support them. I will only add this, that I know that if my noble friend Lord Curzon, Chancellor of the University of Oxford, had been able to be present to-night he would very gladly have given his support to this Bill, and, I have no doubt, would have told us something of the part which his University has taken in this matter.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX haying been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

ARMY (SUSPENSION OF SENTENCES) BILL
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, this is a Bill the passing of which has been rendered desirable by the circumstances of the war. As your Lordships know, included in the very large number of young soldiers who are out at the Front there are a good many to whom military affairs are comparatively new and among whom offences which occur are clue not to any inherent vice but in many cases simply to want of nerve and want of familiarity with trying circumstances. Still, military discipline requires that certain offences which come within this category should be dealt with, in some cases severely. The proposals in the Bill are founded on the observations of the Field-Marshal Commanding-in-Chief and the Adjutant-General, and they have met with the approval of my noble

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and gallant friend the head of the Army Council.
The change which is desired to be made is this, that when a soldier is convicted by Court-Martial and sentenced, the sentence may, in the discretion of the military authorities, be suspended so that it is not to commence it may be for six weeks, or it may be for three months. During that period the soldier convicted will have another chance. He goes into the trenches; he distinguishes himself by his gallantry; his sentence in that case is remitted. If, on the other hand, it is proved that he has misconducted himself from some inherent defect of character, then his sentence will go on. That provision will reach two cases. First, it will reach the case of the soldier who, as I have said, has erred front weakness and not from design, and whom we all wish to help back to an honourable position in the ranks. It will also meet another class of case. It has fallen to me during the war to relieve my noble and gallant friend of duties in connection with Courts-Martial, and almost every night, sometimes into the small hours of the morning, I am busy considering in individual cases what is to be done with sentences, and what is to be done with them depends upon a classification of the character of the offenders. There is a category of offender, not a large category I am glad to say, who attempts the commission of an offence in order to escape the perils of the trenches. There are not many such cases, but there is a sufficiency of them to make it worth while to deal with this class of case. This Bill enables that class to be dealt with. Such an offender may be sent back to the trenches with his sentence to serve afterwards unless he redeems his character. So that whether you take them from the point of view of the good man or the bad man, the provisions of this Bill alike commend themselves to common sense and to justice. That is the whole of the Bill, and I ask your Lordships to read it a second time and pass it through its remaining stages to-day.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords. I am sure that this Bill will be received with proper respect. But I did not quite understand, from the statement of the noble and learned Viscount, whether it is intended
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that this process is to apply pretty universally to sentences or whether it is to be the exception. There is no pleasure to officers in sitting on Courts-Martial, and while we should all welcome the greatest possible leniency in our Military Code, the position of officers composing Courts-Martial if in nine cases out of ten the confirming authority is to suspend the sentence during the war would certainly not be an agreeable one. I think we ought either to change our Code if it is too severe, or make the cases in which the confirming authority is to come in occasional rather than the rule. I suggest that point for the consideration of the noble and learned Viscount. I am quite sure that there is nothing which officers who have been long connected with the Army would more deprecate than that Courts-Martial should become a sort of farce, their decisions being always likely to be over-ruled. The great object is that the soldier should feel that his sentence is the least which ought to be given, and that the officers who sit upon him, having given the fullest consideration to his case, should know that the decision at, which they arrive will as a rule be confirmed.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Bill permits this as a discretion to the confirming authority, which ultimately means the Commander-in-Chief. At present all cases go to a confirming authority, as the noble Viscount knows. That authority exercises a discretion, and afterwards the discretion is reviewed by the Secretary of State in all cases where it properly should be reviewed. But the review, of course, is exceptional. Every officer serving on a Court-Martial knows that the sentence may be reviewed and altered, but it is an exceptional course to take. All that is meant by the Bill is this. The Court-Martial will proceed on the exact principles of justice, and it will not be any interference with or reflection upon the Court-Martial if this discretion is exercised. But it is a discretion which will be exercised as an exception to the general rule for the purpose of meeting what is felt to be a necessity caused by the new state of things in the Army.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

INJURIES IN WAR (COMPENSATION) (No. 2) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD SAYE AND SELE: My Lords, this little Bill has come up from another place unscathed, and in its passage was never challenged. I ask your Lordships to give it a Second Reading, and if it is your good pleasure to do so I will also ask you to pass it through its further stages to-day. Briefly, the objects of the Bill are these. The Post Office is employing on the sea a great number of men directly and indirectly—that is, themselves and by contract and sub-contract—who, though neither soldiers nor sailors, are doing work which exposes them to some of the worst risks of the war. I need not mention what those risks are, as they will come readily to your Lordships' minds. Some of the men are employed in connection with the installing, repairing, and operating of submarine cables and telegraphic apparatus, including wireless. Others are employed at sea in sorting letters and parcels. This Bill is to secure to them adequate compensation in the ease of disablement and to make provision for their widows or children or other dependants in case of death from injuries. Employees on the cable ships are eligible for compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Act, but the men employed on sorting work on the Holy head and Kingstown packets, as well as those postmen who travel as couriers between England and France, do not come under that Act. Moreover, it is considered desirable to provide for all these persons compensation on a more liberal scale than that of the Workmen's Compensation Act, and the provisions of this Bill will give them the same terms as are given to civilians employed afloat under the Admiralty. I need only add that "disablement" in this Bill means disablement by personal injury by or sickness directly traceable to the operations of the war.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Saye and Sele.)
On Question, Bill lead 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD LUCAS): My Lords, I may perhaps explain why this Bill and the Army Act Amendment Bill are both put down to-day. There are certain rather urgent amendments to the Army Act which it is necessary to get passed as soon as possible, and they would under ordinary conditions have been embodied in the Army (Annual) Bill. But as your Lordships know, the Army (Annual) Bill does not usually come up until a rather later period in the session, and it was the opinion of the War Office that, that being so, it would be necessary, in order to get the amendments which they require, to have a separate Bill. Therefore the Army Act Amendment Bill has been framed. Since that measure passed through the House of Commons it has also been possible to pass the Army (Annual) Bill. Therefore the amendments which are required do not appear in this Bill but in the Bill which. I shall ask your Lordships to read a second time after the Army (Annual) Bill has been passel. The only alterations in the Army (Annual) Bill are two- one in the second paragraph, where the total number of men is now given as 3,000,000; and the other in the schedule of prices given for billeting, where, owing to the increased cost of forage, the allowance is now 2s. a day whereas it used to be 1s. 9d.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Lucas.)
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

ARMY ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD LUCAS: My Lords, the amendments which are required in the Army Act are comprised in this Bill. The first one is an amendment of Section 83. It is intended to give power to the Army Council to transfer men from one corps to another, not, as at present, within three months of their service, but at any time during their service; subject to these conditions, that

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it is to apply only in time of war and to affect only men enlisted since the war.
The second clause is to clear up one or two difficulties that have arisen with regard to the method of impressment. The first point is to explain the meaning of "due payment," which is now defined as the fair market price between a willing seller and willing buyer. The second point is to enable the County Court Judge to include in his certificate a sum which will, besides giving the price of the animal or article requisitioned, also include a sum to cover cases where either the owner or the Crown has been put to expense. The third clause is to amend Section 183 of the Army Act, under which, as it stands at present, the Army Council have the power of summarily reducing non-commissioned officers but are not authorised to delegate that authority. It is desirable at the present time that the General officers commanding the new armies At the various training centres in this country should have this power, which is already possessed by the General Officer Commanding-in-Chief in the Field, and therefore it is thought desirable to enable this power to be delegated.
The object of the last clause in the Bill is to provide for mutual relations between naval and military authorities when acting together. At present a military officer has no power of discipline over a sailor. The amendment in the law is designed to meet this difficulty; and there is a similar amendment in the Naval Discipline Bill which will shortly come before your Lordships providing for the same thing from the naval point of view. I have now explained all the amendments in the Army Act which this Bill is intended to secure.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Lucas.)
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, I think there will be general agreement that the War Office, with the very great powers which they have of requisitioning, have done their best to exercise those powers with consideration to all who have had to give up their property. We may, on the Defence of the Realm Amendment Bill, have to say a word with regard to damage to property which in some cases, I think, has not been quite so much studied as it might have been. But so far as this Bill delegates to General officers commanding the new Armies work which has hitherto been done by the War Office, I am sure it will
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be welcomed by all members of your Lordships' House; because the one object, I think, in these matters at present ought to be to decentralise work from the War Office and give as much power as possible to those who are in immediate contact with the troops.
One point, however, has occurred to me with regard to this Bill. In future if requisitions are made the price given may be appealed against to a County Court Judge within three weeks; but with regard to all past requisitions the appeal must be made within three weeks of the passing of this Act. I am sure members of this House will feel that we know very little indeed of the Acts which we are passing, because they are put through in such a hurry, and if one member of the House besides the noble Lord in charge is fully seized of a Bill it is about as much as is the case. By the public, of course, these Acts cannot be equally well known, and I think, seeing that a large number of those from whom articles and stores have been requisitioned are now serving the country and are not in touch with their estates or their factories, it might be well to give a longer time for appeals in respect of past requisitions. Or perhaps the Government would meet the point by taking the opportunity of full publication of the fact that if there is to be an appeal against any requisition it must be made within three weeks. That would draw the attention of the public to this Act. I may say that I am the last person to desire to multiply these appeals, but. I think the suggestion I have made is a fair one.
LORD LUCAS: I will draw the attention of the War Office to the noble Viscount's suggestion, which is an eminently fair and reasonable one. I agree that publication is the best way to secure that everybody who is affected by this provision may know the effect of this clause in the Bill.
LORD HAVERSHAM: There is at present a fixed price with regard to horses beyond which the authorities cannot go. I think very fair value has been given for draught animals, but in my neighbourhood some valuable horses have been paid for very much under price. I should like to ask whether the County Court Judge to whom the appeal is to he made will have power to go beyond the sum which the War Office have already fixed.
LORD LUCAS: He will be guided by the value of the animal after he has heard the evidence, and he will assess the price in the way now defined in the Bill, where the definition is "the market value of the animal as between a willing seller and a willing buyer."
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

NATIONAL INSURANCE (PART II. AMENDMENT) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD ISLINGTON: My Lords, this is another emergency measure due to the war, and I think your Lordships will agree, when you realise its provisions, that it is non-contentious in character. It proposes to enable workmen and employers, by agreement, re continue to pay unemployment insurance contributions in respect of unemployment in the scheduled insured trades outside the United Kingdom. Under the National Insurance Act, 1911, unemployment contributions by employers and workmen am payable only when workmen are employed in the insured trades in the United Kingdom. At the present time there are a number of workmen employed in civilian work in connection with the military operations at the Front, who therefore, under the existing law, do not enjoy the provisions of the National Insurance Act. In the United Kingdom a workman and his employer are compelled in the scheduled trades to contribute to the unemployment fund. When they go abroad, as they are going now to the extent of some thousands upon the work that I have indicated, these workmen are employed by the same employer and are carrying on practically the same work; but owing to this temporary defect in the law payment is not only not required but voluntary contributions are at present invalid, so that although an employer may affix the unemployment stamp on the workman's book, that stamp is not valid, and it is in order to make it so that this short measure has been introduced. The total amount of benefit to a workman is governed by the number of contributions that he makes. For every five contribu-
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tions he gets a week's unemployment pay, and therefore if there is any interruption in that period by his going abroad he would thereby suffer if he came under the fund. Complaints have already been made by workmen who have been invited to go abroad that the continuity of their contributions would cease. The Bill, therefore, merely validates these contributions outside the United Kingdom, and does so only by agreement as between employer and workman. The Bill has been made purposely retrospective from the beginning of the war, because already workmen have gone abroad and have paid their contributions. The Bill will validate the contributions of all who have been so employed since the war commenced.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Islington.)
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

NAVAL MEDICAT COMPASSIONATE FUND BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (LORD EMMOTT): My Lords, I move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee, and in making that Motion perhaps your Lordships will allow me to answer certain questions that were put to me yesterday with reference to this Bill. One question related to the trustees. I then stated, and now repeat, that it is intended to nominate as trustees the Permanent Secretary of the Admiralty, the Medical Director-General, and possibly the Director of Greenwich Hospital. I was also asked about the contributions. It was stated that a very small contribution might entitle the contributor's dependants to considerable benefits under this Bill. This and other details will be settled by a scheme under an Order in Council, and I am authorised to say that the Order in Council will be laid on the Table of the House, so that any of your Lordships who are interested ill the matter will have the opportunity of looking at it. The original Naval Medical Compassionate Fund was set up by an Order in Council. It is easier

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to make changes, according to the information gained by experience, under a system of Orders in Council. In the Act of 1861, which this Bill if it becomes an Act will repeal, a good deal of inconvenience was caused by stereotyping the method of subscription. Those are the reasons why the system of Orders in Council is preferred to setting out all the details in the Bill.
Another question that was put to me was as to the claims of the dependants of those who have subscribed to tins fund in the past. I should like, in the first place, to state that the number who have subscribed is very small—I am told not more than a dozen—since 1862, and the claims of the dependants of those subscribers are a decreasing quantity becoming less every year. The claims of the dependants of the subscribers of the old fund will, of course, have priority, as certainly they ought to have. Then, again, it was said that under the form of this Bill the method of distribution of the fund would be left entirely to the new body. I should like to explain to your Lordships that there is no question of distributing the capital of this fund, but only the interest on the capital. The method of distribution will again be settled by the Order in Council, and the distribution will be made only to the dependants of subscribers; but among those dependants of subscribers it is intended, as regards new subscribers, that the benefits of the Bill may be extended to widows who are in necessitous circumstances. I think I have now answered all the questions that were put to me yesterday, and I hope that the replies which I have been able to give will not be unsatisfactory to your Lordships.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Emmott.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: When we go into Committee, will the noble Lord in charge of the Bill move the insertion of words to give the priority which he mentioned to the persons who are at present either beneficiaries or entitled to become beneficiaries?
LORD EMMOTT: That will be made perfectly plain in the Order in Council, which will be laid on the Table of the House.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: If there are existing interests and if this Bill is dealing with the fund under which those benefits are derived, surely it is usual and more satisfactory to insert words to preserve or to give a priority to the claims of such persons. I think that words should be so inserted; and if the noble Lord is not going to move anything I shall, when we reach the place in the Bill where I think they will come in, myself move the insertion of words and see whether or not he objects to them.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Perhaps my noble friend will allow me to add some words to the explanation given by Lord Emmott, as I have had the advantage of discussing this Bill with the Medical Director-General. The noble Lord opposite will correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that the corpus of this fund is not derived from the period since 1861 during which there have been voluntary contributions but from the period anterior to that, when all medical officers in the Navy were obliged to contribute to the fund. The Order in Council of 1861 was so unfortunately framed, as I understand it, that since that date there have been practically no voluntary contributors at all, or at any rate so few that their interests and those of their dependants cannot be said to constitute a very important element in the future administration of this fund. Therefore although I sympathise with the object which the noble Earl has in view I venture to think that the point can be met in the Order in Council, as Lord Emmott suggests.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Power by Order ht Council to regulate fund
1.—(1) His Majesty may by Order in Council provide—

(a) for constituting new trustees of the said fund and for vesting the fund in such trustees;

(b) for filling vacancies in the office of trustee and for vesting the fund in the trustees for the time being without conveyance or assignment;

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(c) for vesting the management of the fund, the determination of the persons to receive benefits therefrom, and the distribution thereof amongst such persons in such body as may be determined by the Order, being a body representative of the naval medical service, either with or without the addition of representatives of the Admiralty;

(d) for enabling all persons who are or who may hereafter become naval medical officers, or who may at any time have been naval medical officers, to become subscribers to the fund;

(e) for determining the terms of subscription and the manner and time of payment thereof;

(f) for making eligible to benefits from the fond the widows and orphans of all persons who at the time of the making of the Order may have contributed to the fund, and, subject to such conditions as may be prescribed by the Order, of persons who may after that date have become subscribers to the fund;

and the Order may contain any incidental, consequential, or supplemental provisions which may appear to be necessary or proper for the purposes of the Order.
(2) An Order in Council under this Act may be altered or revoked by a subsequent Order in Council.
(3) The Acts mentioned in the Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I do not know whether there exist any persons who at present are beneficiaries under this fund, but if there are such persons their interest ought to be preserved, and, as the noble Lord himself said, ought to have priority. For that purpose I move the insertion of a new proviso.
Amendment moved—
In Clause 1, line 27, at the end of paragraph (c), to insert ("Provided always that nothing in this Act or any Order in Council made there under shall abrogate or interfere with the rights or Privileges of any persons at present receiving benefits or entitled to receive benefits from the fund.").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
LORD EMMOTT: I hope the noble Earl will not press this Amendment. As he knows, I was not aware that he was going to move it and I have not had an opportunity of having it carefully considered, but I am advised that it is quite unnecessary. I have told your Lordships that it is the intention that the dependants of the old subscribers should have priority, and that that will be made perfectly clear in the Order in Council. I think it would be better to raise the point on the Order in
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Council than on this Bill. Anything that I say about a legal matter is, of course, worth very little for I am not a lawyer, but reading this Bill, as I did yesterday, I thought that priority was for all practical purposes given to the dependants of the old subscribers by the Bill.
THE EART OF CAMPERDOWN: No.
LORD EMMOTT: They are specifically mentioned and nobody else is. I will not, however, argue that. I hope the noble Earl will not press the Amendment.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Amendment seems to me to carry out exactly what the noble Lord himself said. If such interests are in existence or can come into existence hereafter, surely it is usual to insert a clause specifically preserving them. Bat if the noble Lord in charge of the Bill is really opposed to the acceptance of the Amendment, I will not ask your Lordships to divide upon it.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I quite appreciate the action of the noble Earl opposite in desiring not to divide the House on a matter of this kind, and I merely rise to say that I do not feel entirely convinced, although I have no special knowledge of this particular Bill or of the circumstances, that as a matter of custom and order a provision of this kind would be inserted in the body of a Bill rather than in an Order in Council intended to carry the Bill into effect. I should have supposed that the more usual course was that which my noble friend Lord Emmott has indicated it is proposed by the Department to take namely, to make it quite clear in the Order in Council, which, after all, is laid on the Table of the House, that such is the intention both of the Department and of Parliament.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 1 agreed to.
Remaining clause and schedule agreed to.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a and passed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Perhaps the noble Marquess opposite would, for the convenience of the House, tell us what he proposes with regard to sittings during the next few days.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, my noble and learned friend on the Woolsack has explained the unfortunate incident whereby we find ourselves possessed of a Defence of the Realm Bill which has not passed through another place, and not in possession of one that has. He has explained, therefore, that the sitting tomorrow will, at any rate in part with any other necessary business, be given up to the discussion of that Bill. We shall he able then to judge whether it is necessary to hold a sitting on Friday, which I hope will not be required. I should propose that the House should meet on Monday at the usual hour for the dis-
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cussion of the other Defence of the Realm Bill and any other business that may come before us by then. I understand that on Tuesday either the noble Marquess opposite or one of his colleagues wishes to raise a discussion upon an Indian matter which has already been mentioned in your Lordships' House—namely, a discussion of a Paper which is now on the Table explaining the desire of the Government of India to appoint an Executive Council for the United Provinces there. That will, I understand, be a discussion which would be likely to interest noble Lords who have been concerned with Indian affairs. Provided, as I hope will be the case, that no other business of immediate moment comes before the House, I should hope that on Tuesday evening we should be able to rise for the Easter holiday.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.