Lords Sitting of 15 June 1915

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House. That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:
Kilmarnock Gas Order Confirmation.
Also the Certificates that no further Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bills:
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 1).
Local Government Provisional Order (No. 7).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

CHELMSFORD CORPORATION GAS BILL.
Committee to meet on Tuesday next.
PORT OF LONDON AUTHORITY BILL. [H.L.]
Committed for Thursday next.

LOXDON ELECTRIC RAILWAY FACILITIES.
(Petition for Bill.)
Examiner's Certificate of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Tuesday next.

SKEGNESS URBAN DISTRICT GAS BILL.
  METHODIST CHURCH IN IRELAND BILL.
    AMMANFORD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
    Reported, with Amendments.
LURGAN URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Read 2a, and committed.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS AND IMPROVEMENTS) BILL.
  WEARDALE AND CONSETT WATER BILL.
  Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
BRIGHTON AND HOVE GAS BILL, [H.L.]
  FALMOUTH DOCKS BILL, [H.L.]
    ORMSKIRK GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
    Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
FORFAR GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment, agreed to.
METROPOLI1TAN DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL.
  SEAFORTH AND SEFTON JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL.
  Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 7) BILL.
To be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Hylton).
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
To be read 2a To-morrow (The Duke of Devonshire).

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
Colonies (Annual)—No. 842. Gilbert and Ellice Islands Protectorate (Report for 1912–1914):
National School Teachers' (Ireland) Pension Fund Account, 1914—Accounts of receipts and payments in respect of the capital and income of the above Fund for the period to 31st December 1914:
Aeronautics—Report of the Advisory Committee for Aeronautics for the year 1914–1915:
Tuberculosis (Human and Animal) (Royal Commission)—Final Report of the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the relations of human and animal tuberculosis. Part II. Appendix. Volume VII. Graphic Charts:
Ordnance Survey—Report of the Progress of the Ordnance Survey to 31st March, 1915:
Board of Agriculture and Fisheries—Agricultural Statistics, 1914. Vol. XIX. Part II Returns of Produce of Crops in England and Wales; with Summaries for the United Kingdom:
India (Territorial Troops) — Infantry privates, comparison between pay, allowances, and regular compulsory deductions at home and in India:
Board of Education—

1. Report for the year 1911 on the Victoria and Albert Museum and the Bethnal Green Museum;

2. Reports for the year 1914 on the Science Museum and on the Geological Survey and the Museum of Practical Geology:

Railway Accidents—Summary of accidents and casualties reported to the Board of Trade by the several railway companies in the United Kingdom during the three months ended 31st December 1914, in pursuance of the Regulation of Railways Act, 1871; together with reports to the Board of Trade by the Inspecting Officers, Assistant Inspecting Officers and Sub-Inspecting Officers of the Railway Department upon certain accidents which were inquired into:
Presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the Table.
Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and Merchant Shipping (Convention) Act, 1914— Order in Council, dated 2nd June 1915, postponing the date of operation of the Act of 1914 to 1st January 1916:
Foreign Jurisdiction Act, 1890—Order in Council, dated 2nd June 1915, entitled the Eastern African Protectorates (Appeal to Privy Council) Amendment Order in Council, 1915:
Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1365—Two Orders, dated 2nd June 1915 and 10th June 1915 respectively, made under the Act:
Irish Universities Act, 1908—Statute V. of the National University of Ireland:
National Insurance Acts—The National Health Insurance (Exempt Persons) Consolidated Regulations, 1915, dated 11th June, 1915:
Superannuation—Treasury Minute, dated 14th May 1915, granting a retired allowance to Richard Thomas Perry, Assistant Inspector of Postmen, Harrow Post Office, under section 2 of the Superannuation Act, 1887:
Civil List Pensions—List of all pensions granted during the year ended 31st March 1915, and payable under the provisions of section 9 (1) of the Civil List Act, 1910:
Penal Servitude Acts, 1853–1891 (Conditional Licence)- Licence granted to a convict discharging her from Aylesbury Convict Prison on condition that she enters a home:
Shops Act, 1912—Orders made by the following Councils and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department affecting certain classes of shops within their respective areas—

1. Glamorgan County Council (Bridgend Urban District);

2. Cornwall County Council (Newquay Urban District);

3. Council of County Palatine of Chester (two orders);

4. Gloucester City Council;

5. Rushden Urban District Council;

6. Whitehaven Borough Council:

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.
Port of Arundel—Account and Report for 1914–1915: Delivered (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.

PORT-GLASGOW GAS AND BURGH EXTENSION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order relating to Port-Glasgow Gas and Burgh Extension—Was presented by the Lord Stanmore; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, section 7), deemed to have been read 2a, and reported from the Committee. (No. 92.)
KILMARNOCK GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
  IRVINE AND DISTRICT WATER BOARD (EMERGENCY POWERS) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
  Read 2a (according to Order), and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been reported from the Committee.
GREAT NORTH OF SCOTLAND RAILWAY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
HIGHLAND RAILWAY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
CONWAY FISHERIES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
SEA FISHERIES (CARDIGAN BAY) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
SEA FISHERIES (POOLE) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
TRAMWAYS PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed for Tuesday next.

THE MILK AND DAIRIES (CONSOLIDATION) BILL
Lord STRACHIE Lord STRACHIE rose to ask His Majesty's Government, whether they can assure the House that the Milk and Dairies (Consolidation) Bill is purely a Consolidation Bill and does not alter the existing law in any respect: whether they will state why subsection (3) of Section 17 of the Milk and Dairies Act, 1914, is not re-enacted in the Consolidation Bill, and what is the object of the Fifth Schedule to the Bill; and whether such a Schedule is usual in Consolidation Bills.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I must apologise to my noble friend for giving him such short notice of this Question, but the subject is one which is very much exercising the minds of the dairy farmers
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of this country; and the British Dairy Farmers' Association, on behalf of whom I am acting, are anxious to be assured that this Consolidation Bill does not alter the existing law in any respect. Their suspicion that an alteration in the law was contemplated was aroused from the fact that subsection (3) of Section 17 of the Act of 1914 is not re-enacted. For the information of your Lordships I will read subsection (3). It runs—
"Section thirty-four of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act, 1878, as amended by Section nine of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act, 1886, and this Act shall, notwithstanding anything in the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, extend to London."
On the face of it, therefore, it would appear that the Milk and Dairies Act, which did extend to London, will not extend to London in the future. Like myself, the noble Lord who represents the Local Government Board is interested in all that appertains to dairy questions, and is perfectly well aware that until the Milk and Dairies Act of last session was passed we always had enormous trouble and difficulty with London, on account of London coming down and insisting on interfering with us in our local administration. It is feared that there may be something in this Consolidation Bill which takes away the benefits that were conferred by that Act upon the provinces. Anyhow, it does seem strange that in a Consolidation Bill certain existing provisions should not be re-enacted and no explanation given. I hope, therefore, that on this point the noble Lord will be able to satisfy those upon whose behalf I speak; and I trust that those members of your Lordships' House who sit upon the Joint Committee by whom this Consolidation Bill is being considered will take care that it is purely a consolidation measure and that it does not make the slightest alteration in the existing law.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, in reply to the Question put by my noble friend Lord Strachie, I hope to be able to satisfy him and the House that the measure to which he refers is purely a Consolidation Bill. It is not designed to alter the existing law in any respect, but merely to reproduce in one Act provisions included in the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Acts, 1878 and 1886, and the Milk and Dairies Act, 1914. It was introduced in fulfilment of a pledge given last year by Mr. Samuel during the passage of the Bill of 1914.

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The noble Lord asks why subsection (3) of Section 17 of the Milk and Dairies Act, 1914, is not re-enacted in the Consolidation Bill. That subsection provided that Section 34 of the Act of 1878, as amended by Section 9 of the Act of 1886, should apply to London. This was necessary as these sections did not apply to London, which was governed by Section 28 of the Public Health (London) Act, 1891, but this Section 28 was repealed by the Act of 1914. The Consolidation Bill now before the Joint Committee will be found to incorporate Section 34 of the Act of 1878 as amended by Section 9 of the Act of 1886, and those sections, as thus now incorporated, apply to London as well as to the rest of the country. In these circumstances the, reproduction of subsection (3) of Section 17 of the Act of last year is unnecessary.
The other point on which my noble friend asked for information was as to the object of the Fifth Schedule. This Schedule is an attempt to collect for the information of dairymen the chief provisions affecting them outside the scope of the present Bill. I believe that, as a matter of fact, it is rather unusual to add a Schedule of this character in Consolidation Bills, but it was thought, in the special circumstances of the case, that it might be convenient. As my noble friend knows, if the Joint Committee to whom the Bill has been referred consider the Schedule in any way inappropriate they can strike it out. It is in no sense an extension of the existing law, and will not affect in any way the scope of the Bill.

THE WAR—PEERS' ROLL OF HONOUR.
LORD ST. DAVIDS LORD ST. DAVIDS rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they would cause a roll to be composed of the names of the Peers and sons of Peers of military age who are serving their country in this war, and of the positions in which they are serving.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I presume that the usual way in which to obtain the roll that I am asking for from the Government would be to move for a Return. I specially have not done that, because I take it that the Department which would be asked to give the information would be the War Office, and it would be lunacy for any one to suggest that the War Office should have thrown upon its shoulders any unnecessary work at the moment. There-
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fore I do not move for a Return, but ask His Majesty's Government whether they will cause a roll of the kind to which I refer to be composed. I think such a roll could best be prepared through the officials of the House, if the Government and your Lordships are of opinion that such a roll should be obtained. Since I came into the House one noble Lord asked me what service I thought should be included. Obviously all war service should be included. Another noble Lord said he thought that not only the service of Peers' sons but that of Peers' sons' sons should be included. I quite agree. For my part I have no preconceived notion as to the form which the roll should take, but I think the advantages of such a roll both for record and for example would be very great, and I. hope the Government will see their way to assent to its preparation.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, I feel sure that the House would desire to give, a sympathetic reply to the appeal which my noble friend has made on this subject. It is a matter of pride to us all who are members of this House, and not least to those of us who for one reason or another have not been able to take a part in the actual military or naval service of the country in this war, that so many Peers and so many members of their families have come to the front for the service of the King on this occasion. I think that the most appropriate course will be, speaking generally, that which my noble friend has suggested. I should propose that my two noble friends who respectively represent the Admiralty and the War Office in this House should obtain from those Departments the technical details of service, which would not be at the disposal of those outside the Departments, and that then the roll should be prepared on principles and with limitations which may be a matter for some consideration, provided that all those included were taking part in the service of the Crown in the military or naval forces in some capacity or another. That, of course, is not to say that there are not; a large number of members of this House, prevented by one cause or another from holding actual commissions in the Services, who are devoting the most valuable energies and giving up in many cases the whole of their time to the service of the country in connection with the war; but I think it would probably be

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more consonant with the feeling of the House if this particular return were confined to those who are holding His Majesty's Commission in some form or other in the Army or Navy. We should propose, therefore, to proceed on those lines. If the noble Lord will forgive me, I would suggest that the form in which the return is asked for should read, "Peers and sons of Peers of military age who are serving or have served their country in this war, and the positions in which they are serving or have served."
LORD ST. DAVIDS: I am quite willing to accept the noble Marquess's suggestion.
LORD DEVONPORT: My Lords, I should like to say a word, as a roll in the form suggested might be unfair and unjust in certain cases. To take a concrete instance. I have two sons of fighting age. One of them was travelling in Germany at the time the war broke out and was taken prisoner, and there he remains. The other has been suffering for two years from a continuing illness, and of course his name, under the suggestion of the noble Marquess, would not be recorded. I think a roll so prepared would lead to misapprehension and misunderstanding in time to come. I am moved to make these few observations because I cannot dismiss from my mind the character of the speech which Lord St. Davids made the other day. He laid it down that if we wanted to create an example throughout the country the only way of doing it was to start at the top, and he went on to relate an incident within his own knowledge of a certain Peer having given an entertainment which had been numerously attended by what are termed "young slackers." The sort of imputation cast by that speech makes me think that we ought to be very careful before, we assent to this proposal. I may, of course, be mistaken as to the noble Lord's intention. At all events, I am going to enter my protest against this roll being prepared unless at the same time we have an opportunity of placing on record the circumstances pertinent to those who do not come within the suggested classification. I see that the Motion in its original form not merely applies to sons of Peers but also to Peers themselves.
LORD ST. DAVIDS: Of military age.
LORD DEVONPORT: It is not so stated in the case of Peers.
LORD ST. DAVIDS: The words "of military age" apply not only to sons of Peers but also to Peers.
LORD DEVONPORT: I had overlooked that, and therefore will not pursue that point further. But why assail a class? Certainly the noble Lord did assail a class the other day. Those who constitute the membership of this House are a very limited class. The noble Lord, in his speech the other day when he was advocating either registration or conscription, said that if you were to go to the country and ask them to support you because the working men were not adequately responding you would be defeated; and he gave an illustration of the earnestness with which men were working in a dockyard near which he lives—Pembroke Dockyard, I think, was the one to which he referred. I am certain, if the noble Lord's objective to-day is what it was the other day—to bring about compulsory military service or something akin to it—that if he were to go to the country and say that the justification for it was that the sons of Peers and Peers of fighting age were "slackers" he would be defeated, because the newspapers show the contrary to be the case. We see from the records in the newspapers that the toll of life taken day by day from the families of members of the Peerage is very considerable. That at all events shows that they are rendering to their country a very full measure of service indeed.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the observations which have been made by the noble Lord who has just addressed the House certainly deserve very attentive consideration. While I am in favour of giving the kind of information for which Lord St. Davids has moved, I think we must be extremely careful not to give it in a shape which might have the effect of creating a prejudice in the minds of the public against those members of your Lordships' families who, although of military age, may, for reasons which may be amply sufficient, have been prevented from serving their country in the Army or the Navy. No case could be stronger than that which the noble Lord cited—the case of a son of a member of this House who has been actually interned in Germany, and who obviously, therefore, could not come forward to serve. I hope your Lordships will allow us to consider very carefully the precise form in which this information

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should be given I am bound to say that I agree, with what was said just now to the effect that the reference made the other evening by Lord St. Davids to certain members of this House makes it doubly necessary that we should prepare this return in a way which cannot create any misapprehension in the public mind. We know that Lord St. Davids spoke under the influence of very strong feeling, but I thought when I listened to his speech, and I think now, that it was, perhaps, unfortunate that he should have made the kind of statement which he did make upon that occasion.
LORD ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, I would point out that the suggestion that this should be a record only of those holding military and naval commissions came from the Government. For my own part I would like to see service of every sort and
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kind included. I can quite understand that it may be more difficult to get this full information, but my own belief is that this record will only be complete when, added to military and naval service, you have a record of every other kind of service, and also of incapacity for service. I was hoping that the officials of this House, say, would circularise every Peer. If a Peer had a son who was a. prisoner abroad, that would be recorded; and if he had a son of military age who had tried to enlist but had not been accepted, that also would be included. I think this sort of information ought to be added to the naval and military facts which the Government have offered to give us.
House adjourned at five minutes before Five o'clock, till Tomorrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.