Lords Sitting of 14 July 1915

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
(Southampton (Extension) Order).
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Mayo, the Lord Bateman, and the Lord Barrymore be proposed to the House as Members of the Select Committee on the said Bill in the place of the Earl of Craven, the Lord Annaly, and the Lord Aberdare; read, and agreed to.

MARRIAGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL (HIDERS (No. 2) BILL.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 5) BILL.
LAND DRAINAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
LAND DRAINAGE (RAVENINGHAM) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
Reported, without amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
  Reported, with an Amendment, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
GAS AND WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
GAS AND WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
GAS AND WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
LAND DRAINAGE (OUSE) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, and recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

LONDON ELECRIC RAILWAY COMPANIES' FACILITES BILL.
Reported, without amendment.
NOTIFICATION OF BIRTHS (EXTENSION) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Hylton). (No. 132.)
GLASGOW CORPORATION (PARKS, HARBOURS, TUNNEL, GAS, &c.) ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a (The Lord Stanmore), and reported from the Committee. (No. 133.)

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
Post Office Servants—First Report of a Committee appointed to examine the issues arising out of the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons on Post Office Servants, 1912–1913:
Mercantile Marine (Examinations for Certificates of Competency)—Report on the Examinations of Candidates for Certificates of Competency in the Mercantile Marine and the Sea Fishing Service for the year ended 31st December 1911:
Fisheries (Scotland)—Thirty-third Annual Report of the Fishery Board for Scotland for the year 1914:
Presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the Table.
Children Act, 1908 (Grant to Day Industrial Schools)—Recommendation made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under Section 80 of the Act, as to the Parliamentary Grant to Certified Day Industrial Schools:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Order No. XXXIX considered (according to order) and suspended for the remainder of the week.

PUBLICATION OF DESPATCHES
LORD WEARDALE LORD WEARDALE had the following Question on the Paper—
To ask His Majesty's Government, whether there is any reason why the system hitherto prevailing, of avoiding or delaying, the publication of despatches interesting to the country in general and particularly to the families of the gallant troops engaged in the operations, should he maintained in the case of the Egyptian Campaign, and that the important despatches of the General Commanding relative to the attacks upon the Suez Canal February and March should not now be published.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, my object in rating this Question is, in the first place, to elicit from the Government some statement as to the system governing the publication of despatches and the communication of important news to the public. We are aware that under the late Administration we lived under a system of "wait and see," and we have waited a long time without seeing many things of supreme importance which we think might have been seen without any inconvenience to the Government to the military authorities. In framing this Question I have been guided by the very natural condition that one must, not expect the publication of any information that could reasonably be supposed to be of advantage to they. No doubt it may be said, in ret to certain incomplete operations in various parts of the world, such as the Persian Gulf, East Africa, the Cameroons, and other places, that there would probably be inconvenience in giving very careful particular; but with regard to the attacks the Tuikish forces upon the Suez Canal in the early Months of this year, it surely cannot be contended that those operations have not been closed for the time being at any rate, whatever may be the imminence of danger at a later period. I think we may fairly ask that the report of tine distinguished General who commands in Egypt the British Force which so valiantly repelled the Turkish invaders should now be communicated to the public. There surely can be nothing in that despatch which cap afford any information of a useful character to the enemy. On the other hand, it seems to me very unfair to the families whose sons and relatives have been engaged in those operations that no information whatever is given to the public of the valiant deeds that they performed.
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Therefore I think we have sonic ground for asking the War Office, whether there is to be in future any relaxation of the very rigid rule as regards the publication of these documents, and whether they do not think that the tithe has come to take the public a little more into their confidence and give them a little more information. It seems to me that we have been treated throughout this terrible war as if we were a nation of hysterical children who were afraid to be told the truth. That is not My opinion of the British people. I believe that the more we are told the truth, even if it he altogether unpleasant to hear, the more we should set our teeth and be determined to early this war to a successful concluaion. Therefore I press on the Government that. the time has come when they should be a little more thoughtful of the public requirements in the matter of information, and that they should now publish all the despot lies that without substantial inconvenience can he communicated to the public, and I make special reference to the despatch relative to the doings of our Expeditionary Force in Egypt
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD NEWTON): My Lords, the official view with regard to the publication of reports and despatches is as follows. Reports of military operations; are tendered from time to time by officers in independent command in the field. These are primarily professional in character and for trill information of the superior military authorities, and they are net published unless the operations are on a considerable scale and the results really substantial. The necessity for the observance of this rule lies in the fact that the publication of a so-called despatch, as distinguished from a report, gives it great military importance, and care has to he taken that operations are not endowed by the fact of publication with importance beyond their real military value. Especially at a time when the theatres of war are as numerous as they are at the present moment, care must la, exercised to secure a due proportion amongst the operations under the various commands. Publication for the purpose of informing the public is occult in the loan of communications from time to time to t lie Press at various stages in the progress of t he operations. These communications are based upon the telegraphic reports received from the commanders.
The long and short of this is that the primary object of the reports and despatches

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is to explain to the Government the progress of military operations from the professional point of view rather than to afford information to the public. I would like to call attention to the following extract from the Field Service Regulations—
"It will rest with the responsible Government acting upon the advice of the Commander-in-Chief to determine what reports and despatches are not to be made public, and the manner in which those to be published we to be made generally known."
I am afraid that the reply which I have given is not likely to find much favour in the eyes of my noble friend or in all probability in the eyes of that portion of the Press which, apparently, considers that one of the objects of the war is to increase the circulation of their organs. But I think I may take upon myself to remind my noble friend that the whole tendency of modern warfare is in the direction of reticence, and if there is one thing which must be more carefully avoided than anything else it is the danger, as the noble Lord himself admitted, of giving information to the enemy; and I believe that even in this Assembly, which I suppose is one of the most reticent in the world, some unguarded remarks have fallen which might possibly have been of some use to the enemy.
As to the statement of the noble Lord that information is withheld front the public and that the public is treated as a mass of hysterical children, I would like to point out that as far as the communication of news goes the British public is in a much better position than is, so far as I am aware, the public of any other country. It is not the practice of other Governments to issue any communiqués or reports or despatches beyond an extremely threadbare daily announcement, and a long compilation prepared by the General Stall which appears many months after the war is concluded. At any rate, the British public gets a good deal more information than does the public of any other country; and I think the statement which I have just made will be borne out by my noble friend, who has a better acquaintance with the Continent than, perhaps, any other Peer present this afternoon.
There is another circumstance to which I should like to refer. We are not waging this war single-handed, and that being so it must be perfectly obvious that in the publication of despatches or reports the views of the Allies must be taken into consideration, just as in the preparation of a
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Blue Book the views of the Governments concerned have to be considered. I an admit that this, perhaps, does not apply so strongly in the case of the. Egyptian campaign, because that campaign has been carried on with a very small participation on the part of any of our Allies. But I would remind my noble friend that there have been no less than six long communiqués with regard to the actions to which he referred. These appeared in the Press here on February 3, 5, and 8, and on March 15, 22, and 29. Therefore with regard to these particular operations my noble friend has not a very strung cause for complaint. At the conclusion of his remarks my noble friend expressed what. I trust may be a correct opinion, that the operations in that part of the world had finally terminated; but I cannot help thinking that it would be somewhat rash to make any assumption of that character. In view of this mid in view of the facts which I have stated, the Secretary of State is of opinion that it is not advisable at present to publish any further information with regard to the actions which took place on the Suez Canal in the months of February and March.

PUBLIC ECONOMY.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they intend to recommend to local authorities that schemes of social improvements not of urgent necessity be postponed until the termination of the war; and also whether they will give a comparative statement showing the loans sanctioned from March 26 to June 30 in the years 1914–15 respectively in respect of the matters in which—

1. The Local Government Board,

2. The Board of Education,

3. The Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and

4. The Home Office are concerned, and generally the way in which the loans for which the Local Government Board are primarily responsible are made up, e.g.,

a. War requirements.

b. Expenditure already incurred under contracts existing at the date of their Circular Letter of March 25.

c. Urgent requirements of public health.

d. Other purposes.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, last week my noble friend Lord Midleton initiated a debate on he question of the civil expenditure of the country, and in the course an interesting and exhaustive speech he gave instances where he thought extravagance had occurred and made suggestions as to how in his opinion economies could he effected in the future, and I was glad to note that he received a very sympathetic reply from the noble Lord Lansdowne. The subject which my noble friend raised was so great a one mid comprised so many different Departments that it was impossible for him to allude to a less important but. still a very important question—namely, the expenditure of local authorities in this time of war. He did, however, allude to one branch of that subject, that of education, but what he said had the effect of bringing the noble and learned Viscount, Lord Haldane, to his feet and of showing that their' was not that unanimity on that subject which one might have hoped for; and as I am most anxious not to refer in the course of my remarks to anything contentious I shall not say anything on the subject of education, except, to express my entire agreement with the opinions that were so ably given utterance to by my noble friend.
In ordinary circumstances this question would not be raised at all. Parliament would be very loth to interfere in any way with the discretion of local authorities, to whom certain powers have been entrusted; but when we find that the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for the Colonies thought it desirable, perhaps even necessary, to attend a public meeting for the purpose of delivering a lecture to everybody in these islands on the subject of thrift, I do not think it will be considered unseemly that a little similar advice should be administered by some one on behalf of His Majesty's Government to local authorities. I do not mean for a moment to say that nothing has been done by the Government with reference to this. Of late I think a great deal has been done. I date say many of your Lordships have seen two Circulars which were issued by the late President of the Local Government Board, Mr. Samuel, on March 11 and 25, and I believe that a similar Circular to the one of March 11 was issued with regard to Scotland. These Circulars have appeared in the public Press, and I therefore do not
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intend to inflict them upon your Lordships; but I should like with the permission of the House to read Our or two extracts from them. In the Circular of March 25 it is stated—
"Treasury are anxious that the, attention of local authorities should be particularly drawn to the have that economies and restrictions borrowing are possible not only as regards new works but also as regards works in progress."
I think I shall be able to show your Lordships that up to he date of this Circular the policy of the Local Government Board had rather been that expenditure should be made these directions than that it should lie curtailed, and no doubt this accounts for the fact that we see so many works still in progress which we think might well have been brought to a standstill. However much local authorities may wish to stop works which have been undertaken, if contracts have been entered into they must appeal to the patriotism and good will of the contractor before die contract can be held up, and it is quite easy to understand that the contractor himself may have made contracts and purchased material and may find it impossible to agree to the work being suspended. That may be the explanation of the continuance of work in connection with the erection of that stately palace at. the other side of the river which we can see from the windows of your Lordships' House. I have no doubt that both the London County Council and the contractors engaged in that work would be glad, if they could do so, to stop it during the war, but for the reasons I have stated it may be impossible to do so.
But even supposing that the local authorities are doing their best to suspend works and to discourage extravagance, I think there are still some matters in connection with which economies could be effected. Let tile state one or two of them. First I should like to mention the subject of lighting. Except in places where Zeppelin raids are expected I believe there has been no diminution of public lighting in any town in England. I know that on occasions when I have motored through the country and found myself at dusk in some provincial town I have been perfectly amazed, accustomed to the gloom of London, at the blaze of light which has met me. We all read the interesting speech of the Minister of Munitions the other day in which he told us of the absolute necessity of economising every ounce of coal we

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could, and it seems to me in these circumstances unwise that lighting in our provincial towns should be continued exactly the same as it was before the war.
Another instance of extravagance—and this may strike a more contentious ground—is the continuation of the building of sanatoria under the Insurance Act. I believe a Circular has quite recently been issued by the Local Government Board suggesting that this should cease, but denying the early months of the war the policy of the Board, as I understand it, was that this work should be continued. I yield to no one in my wish that we should do everything in our power for those of our fellow-countrymen who are suffering from the dreadful disease of consumption, but it seems to me that our first duty at the present time is to save the lives of those who are fighting for us at the Front, and that can only be done by concentrating all our efforts and spending all available money for that purpose.
I should like now to give two or three instances where I think local authorities are asking individuals to spend money in an unnecessary manner. I believe that when new Streets are erected in the neighbourhood of a town the ordinary course is for a builders' road to be first constructed, and then as houses are gradually built on each side and it becomes a street the frontages are called upon to make an ordinary road. That has been done, I am told, to a large extent during the past few months, and it seems to me that this is an unnecessary expense to put these people to at the present time. I will give a rural instance. Before the war began we heard a great deal of the cry "Back to the land," and we were met by the reply that unless the condition of rural housing was improved von could not get people to go hack to the land. Some owners tried to improve their houses, and some, from want of means or because they thought it would not he a profitable investment, did not do much in that direction. But a good mane local authorities have thought it advisable to put in force their powers and gradually to apply pressure so that these people should be brought into line with those who had improved their houses.
I know something about a district committee in Scotland which determined
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that all cottages should have lath and plaster between the cottage wall and the wall-paper, and in the case of old cottages where you go down a step into the kitchen they determined that it was necessary that the floors should be above the ground level. The latter requirement has necessitated new floors being laid, with the result that in certain cases this has made the ceilings too low td comply with the regulations and sonic of the cottages have had to be rebuilt. Then where there is a water supply in close proximity the owner has been required to provide a water supply to the cottage. This entails, in the first place, a great deal of labour which could otherwise be more usefully employed, not only ordinary unskilled labour lint also that of carpenters and plumbers. In the second place, it entails the employment of a great deal of material which might be more usefully employed—for instance, timber which might lie used for constructing huts for our soldiers, and lead which might be used for making bullets for our enemies. In the third place, it entails the expenditure of a large amount of money which might otherwise be available for the War Loan. The Circular of March 11 states—
"Moreover, it is essential to see that capital as well as labour is made available in the directions in which it can best further the national interests doling the war."
There may be a flaw in my last argument, because it may be contended that the money is available whether it is hi the hands of one person or divided amongst many, as it would be if these improvements were made; but. I think it is more likely that one person with £500 would invest it in the War Loan than that the money would be similarly invested if divided amongst forty or fifty people. I hope no one will think that I am advocating that owners should be allowed owing to the war to suffer houses that are in an insanitary condition to become dilapidated. On the contrary, what I am urging is that a new standard of what is sanitary should not be introduced during the war.
The reply that will be given to me will probably be that the local authorities have no option in the matter, and that the sections of the Act under which they have these powers mire mandatory and provide that if there is a nuisance the

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local authority shall do so and so. But surely it remains for the local authority to decide, what is and what is not a nuisance. They very often consider a state of things a nuisance which a few years ago was considered perfectly sanitary. I know hat in some cases this discretion has been exercised by local authorities. A short time ago it was so exercised in Lanarkshire, where the district committee had called upon the sheriff, who had no option in the matter, to declare certain houses insanitary. The houses were to cease to be inhabited and to be demolished, by which time they hoped that their new housing scheme would be carried into effect. Bat when they tried to carry out their new housing scheme they found that, owing to the scarcity of labour and the impossibility of obtaining materials, they were unable to do so, and they were obliged to go back to the sheriff and get him to rescind the order so that these houses could be used again for habitation.
I think the whole secret of this is to be found in the fact that the policy of the Government with regard to these matters has changed. I will read one more extract from the Circular of March 11—
"At the outset of the war there was reason to fear that unemployment might be widespread. The Government committee on the Prevention and if suggested to local authorities that they should hare in readiness schemes for new works and buildings which could be put into operation in case serious unemployment should arise. Local authorities have in general responded to this suggestion, and in most cases suet schemes are ready or in OM advanced stage of preparation."
That is to say, at the beginning of the war it was considered desirable to encourage expenditure in every way. We were told by the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, "Business as usual." I think that cheery note of optimism was useful at that time, but I doubt very much whether the distinguished statesman who is now Minister of Munitions would repeat it at the present; time. I think it is more likely that he would say that only such business is essential as will enable the war most successfully to be carried on. I am asking a long series of Questions. The object of them is to obtain a comparison between expenditure in normal times and that now sanctioned under the policy of the Government as set forth in the Circulars to which I have referred.
LORD HYLTON: My Lords, I think the House will consider that my noble friend Lord Oranmore has done no small public service in renewing attention to the fact that it is at this moment absolutely vital that the country should see that as little public money as possible is spent on what one may call civilian expenditure. Since the speech of the Prime Minister a short time ago, in which he implored the citizens of this country to exercise thrift and economy in every possible direction, there have been many letters addressed to the newspapers pointing out how difficult it, is for private individuals to initiate any general scheme of thrift unless they see the Government and the local authorities doing the same thing with regard to public expenditure. The speech of Lord Oranmore this afternoon, I dare say your Lordships will consider, forms a valuable corollary to the Motion that was brought Forward by Lord Midlaton the other day and to the discussion that was initiated by Lord St. Davids on the sauce subject. They all appear to be directed to the same object—nailaly, to endeavouring to impress upon all public authorities the absolute necessity, in every quarter where it is possible, of exercising greater thrift and economy.
Lord Oranmore ore was very fair in admitting, as I chink he was inclined to do, that local authorities were not perhaps so much to blame as people might think in apparently spending large smuts of money at the present moment On building schemes, for at the beginning of the war a. Circular was sent out he the Local Government Board urging every local authority throughout the kingdom to set on foot, or at all events to get ready and have prepared, schemes of public utility in order to obviate what at that time appeared to the Government to be threatening—namely, a large measure of distress arising from unemployment. Your Lordships will remember, in connection with that, that large relief funds were opened throughout the country with a view to alleviating the great distress that it was supposed at that time was likely to arise from unemployment, and the Local Government Board followed up the matter by sending out a Circular, to which my noble friend alluded, urging public authorities to prepare in all cases large schemes on which public money was to be employed so as to provide labour.

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There is, as every noble Lord who is a member of a county council or connected with a local authority well knows, a considerable number of items on which it is absolutely impossible that public expenditure can cease. First, there is education. Again, as your Lordships are aware, all over the country great additional expenditure has been necessary on the roads owing to their having been so very much cut up by military traffic. County councils are also practically powerless to cut down the expenditure on the Police. This expenditure is regulated and determined by a public Statute, and it is impossible, with the best will in the world, to cut it down. But, as the noble Lord frankly admitted, His Majesty's Government have been alive for sonic time past to the great importance of doing everything in their power to urge on local authorities the necessity of cutting down expenditure where possible.
The noble Lord very properly referred to the Circulars that were sent by the Local Government Board on March 11 and 25 last to all local authorities throughout the country. In the first of those Circulars the Board referred to the fact that at the outset of the war there was reason to fear that unemployment might be widespread; that the Government Committee on the Prevention and Relief of Distress had suggested to local authorities that they should have in readiness schemes for new works and buildings which could be put into operation in case serious unemployment should arise; and that local authorities had in general responded to this suggestion and in most cases such schemes were ready or in an advanced stage of preparation. Unfortunately not only are such schemes in some cases ready or in an advanced stage of preparation, but some of them have already been begun, and in those cases, as my noble friend said, there/is great difficulty in bringing such work to a standstill unless with the free will of the contractors themselves. The Circular of March 11 went on to say—
"Happily, however, after the first few weeks, the trade of the country recovered from its dislocation, and the enlistment of large numbers of men and the execution of war contracts have in most districts converted the problem to be faced from one of unemployment to one of shortage of labour. In these circumstances an opposite policy is indicated, and it becomes necessary to avoid the inception of all new works, except such as are of pressing necessity either for reasons of public health or on account of war requirements."
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I hope that language will have done something, at all events, to satisfy the very natural desire of my noble friend that the Local Government Board should impress on local authorities the necessity of saving all the public money possible. The second Circular, dated March 25, my noble friend has in his hand, and I think he is to a certain extent satisfied with its terms, and therefore I need not dwell upon it.
I will now furnish my noble friend with the comparative statement which the Local Government Board have prepared showing so far as they can the effect of the Circulars of March 11 and 25, and this comparative statement I venture to think proves that to a large extent the language of the Circulars has had good effect in limiting and checking what I may call civilian expenditure by the local authorities. This statement shows the number and amount of loans sanctioned by the Local Government Board, exclusive of Poor Law Loans, during the period from March 26 to June 30 inclusive for the years 1914 and 1915 respectively. As regards the Local Government Board, whereas in the period in question in 1914 no less than 1.042 loans involving a sum of £2,491,534 were sanctioned, in the same period of the current year the loans sanctioned numbered only 293, involving a sum of £1,452,254; this does not include 104 loans amounting to £231,352 for paying off old loans. Of this total amount of loans sanctioned by the Local Government Board from March 26 to June 30 in time current year, amounting, as I have said, to £1,452,251, no less a sum than £1,129,246 was for war requirements—for instance, electric current for power, and houses for employees engaged on war work; £183,030 was for expenditure already incurred; £88,958 was for public health; and £51,020 was for various other purposes. This last amount is principally made up of (1) a sum of £6,576 for urgently required sea defences, (2) sums for works needed to safeguard the efficient carrying on of existing undertakings, and (3) a large number of small loans the sanctioning of which in various special circumstances—for instance, where an unusual opportunity for purchasing property at a low figure occurred—it was considered desirable not to postpone. As regards the Board of Education, whereas in the three months in question in 1914 loans numbering 383

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and involving a sum of £607,514 were sanctioned, in the same period of the current year only 61 loans involving a sum of £54,345 were sanctioned. As regards the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, whereas in the 1914 period 163 loans involving a sum of £94,694 were sanctioned, in the same three months of this year the loans numbered only 88, involving a sum of £39,158. And as regards the Home Office, the loans in the period in question in 1914 numbered 39 and the amount £118,240, whereas in the same period of this year they numbered 17, involving a sum of £63,655. If my noble friend has had the patience to follow these figures he will see that whereas there was in all 1,627 loans in these three months last year involving a total of £3,311,982, this year during the snow period only 459 loans were sanctioned amounting to a total of £1,609,412. Therefore the Local Government Board may claim at all events credit for having sanctioned a vastly smaller expenditure for civilian purposes for the three months from March 26 to June 30 this year than they did during the same period last year. And though it is called civilian expenditure, your Lordships will see that a very large proportion of it was needed for what may fairly be called war requirements.
The necessity for the sanctioning of loans by the Local Government Board is, I am afraid, the only safeguard that can be devised in order to limit expenditure by local bodies during the time of the war, and I am authorised by the Department to assure the noble Lord that any application that is received from local authorities at the present time for a loan in connection with expenditure of this kind will be scrutinised with unusual care. My noble friend also asked a question, apart from public expenditure, as to what he called private works, such as frontagers being put to expense towards the making of roads, and matters of that kind. I am afraid that all can say to satisfy him on this point is that up to the present, wherever opportunity has arisen, the Local Government Board have advised local authorities to be more lenient than usual. But, as my noble friend admitted, many of the Acts of Parliament governing matters of this kind use the word "shall," and I believe I am right in saying that unless further legislation is carried providing to the contrary it is difficult, if not impossible, for the Local Government Board or any
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other public Department to interfere in a case of that kind. The noble Lord will be glad to hear that the President of the Local Government Board is, however, about to issue a further Circular calling the attention of local bodies to this branch of the subject. As regards the particular matters in Scotland to which the noble Lord referred, I am not in a position to-day to give him an answer in detail, because they come under the Scottish Local Government Board; but if he would care to put a supplementary Question on the Paper my noble friend Lord Stanmore, who answers for the Scottish Office, would do his best to satisfy him on that point.
I have no doubt that the House was entirely in sympathy with my noble friend when he alluded to what appeared to be a most deplorable waste of money in respect to public lighting in various provincial towns; and the Local Government Board authorise me to say that they deplore as much as any one, any waste such as of coal, and so on, which would necessarily be involved. But I am afraid that the local bodies in large provincial towns must be to some extent masters of their own house, and the Local Government Board have no power absolutely to stop anything of that sort. The Prime Minister, in a speech that he made on May 14 last on the Board of Education Vote in the House of Commons, whilst fully recognising, as every one must, the absolute necessity of cutting down expenditure, pointed out that there are a great many branches of public service in connection with which it is difficult, if not impossible, to stop expenditure. But I hope, even if the answer that has been furnished by the Local Government Board to the noble Lord is not altogether satisfactory to him, he will recognise that since the issue of the Circulars of March 11 and March 25 at all events they have been doing everything they can to induce local authorities to limit their expenditure in every possible way.

GROUSE (CLOSE TIME) (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the House of yesterday committing the Bill to a Committee of the Whole House discharged, and Committee negatived.
LORD STANMORE: My Lords I understand that there will be no opposition to this Bill, and that in another place it will be in charge of the member of the Govern-

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ment representing Scotland. Therefore by agreement with my noble friend Lord Lovat I move the remaining stages in this House on behalf of the Government.
Bill read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

NATIONAL REGISTRATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL of DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Registration authorities and districts.
2. The Registrar-General acting under the directions of the Local Government Board shall be the central registration authority, and the Common Council of the City of London and the councils of metropolitan and municipal boroughs, and of urban and rural districts, and the Council of the Scilly Islands shall be the local registration authorities for their respective areas, and each such area shall be a separate registration district.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I beg to move to add to this clause the following words, "but any such council may delegate to a committee of the council all or any of their powers as such local registration authority as aforesaid." This will enable the local registration authorities to delegate their powers to committees. It appears that this power is not enjoyed by these bodies, and it is thought better that it should be given to them. A great deal of the work in connection with this Bill will be better done by a small committee than by the full body of the council.
Amendment moved—
Clause 2, page 1, line 16, after ("district") insert ("but any such council may delegate to a committee of the council all or any of their powers as such local registration authority as aforesaid").—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
EARL FORTESCUE: May I ask the noble Marquess whether the committees appointed under this Amendment would be limited to members of the councils appointing them? It is anticipated that there
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will be a great deal of voluntary assistance offered in connection with this Bill, and it is possible in some cases that councils might be glad to co-opt persons on to their committees who were not members of their body. Would these words cover that, or would the Government approve of that?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am afraid I cannot tell my noble friend whether the council would have power to go outside its own members in this case. That is a legal point which I am not able to dispose of. But I feel quite sure that any assistance forthcoming will be gladly availed of in a case of the kind.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3 agreed to.
Clause 4:
Duty to fill up and return, ferns,
4.—(1) For the purpose of enabling such a register to be compiled it shall he the duty of every such person as aforesaid, within the prescribed time, to fill up and sign a form showing the following particulars—

(a) name; place of residence; age; whether single, married, or widowed; number of dependants (if any), distinguishing wife, children, and other dependants; profession or occupation (if any); name and business address of employer (if any), and nature of employer's business; and (in the case of a person born abroad) nationality, if not British; and

(b) whether the work on which he is employed is work for or under any Government Department;

(c) whether he is skilled in and able and willing to perform any work other than the work (if any) at which he is at the time employed, and, if so, the nature thereof.

(2) The central registration authority shall cause forms to be prepared and issued to the local registration authorities, and every local registration authority shall, in accordance with instructions from the Local Government Hoard, cause the forms to be distributed so as to secure that, as far as possible, a sufficient number of forms shall be left at every dwelling-house within their registration district, and shall also give public notice as to the places within the registration district where forms can be obtained.
(3) The local registration authority shall also make arrangements for the collection, in the prescribed manner and within the prescribed times, of forms when filled up and signed.
LORD HAVERSHAM: I should like to ask the noble Marquess what is exactly meant by the words "such person as aforesaid" in the early part of sub-

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section (1), and whether this expression alludes to all those people mentioned in Clause 1. That is three clauses on, and this is an extraordinary way of alluding to them. I should prefer the words "every person to whom this Act applies." Again, who are "dependants"? A dependant might be the "poor relation," or a groom or a footman, or anyone else. We have no definition clause in this Bill, so I do not understand who dependants are. But perhaps the noble Marquess will allow me to move, instead of "every such person as alotesaid," that the words "every person to whom this Act applies" should be inserted.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line leave out ("every such person as aforesaid") and insert ("every person to whom this Act applies").—(Lord Haversham.)
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I rather hesitate to accept this Amendment. I think the meaning of the clause is obvious. The persons, aforesaid are surely the persons limo whose ranks the register is to be formed—that is, the persons who are described in Clause 1.
LORD HAVERSHAM: Then I will withdraw the Amendment. But I should like to ask the noble Marquess to explain how many people are to fill up these forms. Is the householder to fill up the form for the whole family and include his wife, chiidren, and dependants, or are all those between the ages of fifteen and sixty-five to make out their own forms, including the wife?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: The intention of the Bill is that the form should be sent to each individual person and filled up by that person. I know it has been suggested that the same purpose could be accomplished by sending a form to each occupier, but that proceeding has been deliberately set on one side.
LORD HAVERSHAM: Every person over fifteen and under sixty-five is to have it separate form?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Yes.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD HAVERSHAM: Would the noble Marquess explain what is meant by the word "dependants"?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am afraid I cannot give my noble friend a legal definition of the meaning of the word, but I think we all know pretty well what is meant. My noble friend must remember that this register is not to be a document propounded with scientific accuracy. What we want is a rough-and-ready inventory of the people in their different classes, and I am sure it will not be difficult to arrive at a reasonable meaning of the word "dependant."
Clause 4 agreed to.
Clauses 5 to 9 agreed to.
Clause 10:
Duty of employers to furnish information.
10. For the purposes of facilitating the compilation and maintenance of the register, it shall he the duty of any employer of labour (including heads of Government departments) to supply to any registration authority such information as may be prescribed in respect of such persons in his employment as are required to be registered under this Act.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I have to move in Clause 10, after the word "information," to insert the words "and render such assistance." The Amendment only very slightly extends the present wording of the clause. It seems, indeed, quite obvious that if employers of labour are expected to supply information it is not unfair to ask them to supply such assistance as they may be able to give. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 10, page 4, line 15, after ("information") insert ("and render such assistance").—(The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 11 to 14 agreed to.
Clause 15:
Application to Ireland.
15. This Act shall apply to Ireland to such extent and subject to such modifications as are hereinafter mentioned—
(1) The Lord Lieutenant may by Order apply section one of this Act with the necessary modifications to Ireland or to any area or areas in Ireland specified in the Order:
(2) The register for Ireland, or as the case may be for any such area or areas as aforesaid, shall be formed under the directions of the Lord Lieutenant by the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths and Marriages in Ireland (in this section referred to as the Registrar-General for Ireland) whose duty it shall be to compile and maintain the register from information at his disposal or furnished by any other officer or department of the Government pursuant to such directions or by the council of any county or of any county borough which may be desirous of assisting in the formation of the register:
(3) The register shall contain as respects the persons registered the particulars set forth in paragraphs (a), (b), and (c), of subsection (1) of section four of this Act, so far as the same have been ascertained from the information at. the disposal of or furnished to the Registrar-General for Ireland as aforesaid and the Registrar-General for Ireland shall tabulate the contents and make them available for such purposes as may he ordered by the Lord Lieutenant:
(4) The expenses of the Lord Lieutenant and of the Registrar-General fur Ireland in carrying this Act into operation, shall to such an extent as the Treasury may sanction be defrayed out of money provided by Parliament:
(5) There shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament towards expenses incurred, with the sanction of the Local Government Board for Ireland, by county councils and county borough councils in assisting in the formation of the register, allowances on such scale as the Treasury may approve, and such expenses, so far as not covered by the allowances, shall be defrayed in the case of a county council out of the poor rate as a county at large charge, and in the case of a county borough council out of the rate or fund applicable to the purposes of the Public Health (Ireland) Acts, 1878 to 1907:
(6) Save as provided in this section, the foregoing provisions of this Act shall not apply to Ireland.
THE EARL OF MAYO: The noble Marquess will remember that I drew attention on Second Reading to this clause, which deals with Ireland, and to the fact that in areas to which the Lord Lieutenant had not applied the Bill those people who wished to register would not be able to do so. I have sent the noble Marquess an Amendment to meet this point, and I hope he will be able to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 40, after subsection (2), insert as a new subsection: "Any person or persons residing in any area or areas which do not conic under the operations of this Act as applied to Ireland shall on application to the Registrar-General he provided with the necessary forms for registration."—(The Earl of Mayo.)
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I have considerable sympathy with the object which my noble friend has in view. What I understand him to desire is that in Irish areas to which the Act has not been applied by the action of the Lord Lieutenant and in which consequently there is no register, persons desiring to place their services at the disposal of the Government should have an opportunity of obtaining registration forms, and should have their names recorded as persons who wished to make themselves useful in whatever manner may be open to them. I do not think that the wording suggested by my noble friend would quite meet the case, because there would in fact be, as the Bill now stands, no Register at all in the areas which my noble friend is discussing. But I think I can suggest to him words which will answer his purpose, and I will read them. I propose to add as a new subsection these words, "As respects areas in Ireland to which section 1 of this Act does not apply, lists of persons desiring to be registered may, if the Lord Lieutenant thinks proper, be compiled by the Registrar-General for Ireland under the direction of the Lord Lieutenant, and the Lord Lieutenant for that purpose may cause forms to be issued to any such persons on their application." I think that will do quite completely what my noble friend desires.
THE EARL OF MAYO: Then the persons would have to apply to the Lord Lieutenant?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: No; they could apply to the Registrar.
LORD CLONBROCK: That is, to the Registrar-General?
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I presume they would. But they will find the means of ascertaining to whom to go.
LORD CLONBROCK: I am exceedingly glad that this Amendment has been brought forward, because there has been great disappointment in various parts of Ireland on the part of people who were anxious to offer their services to His Majesty's Government. This will be a great relief to such people, to exclude whom from the operations of the Act by reason of the accident of residence would be very hard.
LORD TENTERDEN: I beg to second most strongly this Amendment, which very largely meets the objection that I raised in the House yesterday to the manner in which the Bill is to apply to Ireland. This Amendment will give all the Irish people are opportunity of showing their loyalty to this country in a time of great stress and crisis. I think the new subsection has been very aptly worded by the noble Marquess, and I am sure it will make the Bill more complete and more satisfactory to the Irish people in general.
THE LORD CHAMMAN: I understand that Lord Mayo will withdraw his Amendment in order that the one read by Lord Lansdowne may be substituted.
THE EARL OF MAYO: Yes.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 40, after subsection (2), insert as a new subsection: "As respects areas in Ireland to which section 1 of this Act does not apply, lists of persons desiring to be registered may, if the Lord Lieutenant thinks proper, be compiled by the Registrar-General for Ireland under the
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direction of the Lord Lieutenant, and the Lord Lieutenant for that purpose may muse forms to be issued to any such persons on their applicatMo."— (The Marquess of Lansdowne.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I am told that it will make a great difference if this Bill call pass through its remaining stages to-night. I feel that I have no right to press that upon the House, but there have been very few Amendments put down and not very much criticism. If your Lordships would allow us to take the remaining stages this evening I should be very glad.
Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended: Amendments reported: Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before Six o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.