THE EARL OF CRAWFORDMy Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government what was the approximate number of alien enemies resident in this country on December 1 last other than prisoners of war and persons interned in concentration camps, and what was the approximate number of aliens then residing in prohibited areas.
§ LORD ST. DAVIDSMy Lords, before the noble Marquess answers the Question of the noble Earl opposite, perhaps he will allow me to put my Question which stands next, as it also refers to alien enemies. I ask whether the Government can now see their way to announce that they are ready to repatriate at the cost of this country all alien enemies not of military age and all women and children of alien enemies who may be willing to return to their own countries.
I have been emboldened to put this Question on the Paper by the fact that at one of the last sittings of the House in the Autumn a Question of mine in practically similar terms was received rather kindly by the noble Marquess, who thought that there was a little to be said for it and promised that the Government would consider it. I should like now to ask what the decision of the Government has been on the subject. I might remind the House of the advantages of our offering to pay the expenses of all alien enemies, other than men of military age, who would be willing to go back to their own countries. If all of them accepted the offer it would be an untold benefit; and if only a certain number of them went it would be an advantage well worth the money, because to that extent, whatever the extent might be, it would lessen the number of very suspicious people that the police and special constables and others are at present obliged to watch all over the country. Even supposing none went, would it not be a good thing that the Government should have made this offer publicly? In the German papers there are statements that we in this country have been treating alien enemies with harshness and unkindness. Well, as an answer to those German newspapers and in order to impress the minds of people in neutral countries surely there is nothing better than that we should say that, far from wanting to be harsh to any one, we are prepared not only to let them go without any conditions, but also to pay the expenses back to their own land. Personally, I cannot see any single disadvantage in the 273 Government adopting this course, and I should like to ask what their decision is now that they have considered the matter.
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEMy Lords, I hope my noble friend Lord St. Davids will excuse me if I say that I do not quite sue how his Question, though a very interesting one no doubt, arises on the Question of the noble Earl, Lord Crawford. I propose to answer Lord Crawford's Question, and my noble friend who leads the House will deal with the one put by toy noble friend Lord St. Davids. The noble Earl opposite asks for a statement of the figures as at December 1 last, but perhaps he will allow me to give him the latest available figures and thus bring the matter more up to date.
§ THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHUp to what date are the figures? The first of January?
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEI cannot say exactly the date, but I believe it is up to the first of January—at least it is as near that as possible. The number of male Germans, Austrians, and Hungarians at large in this country is about 27,000; and the number interned or imprisoned, about 15,000. The numbers interned would be greater but for the policy of the War Office, which has resulted in the release of upwards of 2,000 in the last few weeks. The number of females is about 18,000.
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONAt large or interned?
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEAt large. Since the notice of Lord Crawford's Question has been handed in a report has been obtained so far as concerns the areas on the East and South Coasts, and that report gives the total number of male alien enemies in prohibited areas as 695. This figure is worked out as follows: In the prohibited areas from the North of Scotland to Berwick, 59; from Northumberland to the Wash, 437; from the Wash to the Thames, 38; from the Thames to Cornwall, 161. The figures with regard to females are—From the North of Scotland to Berwick, 315; Northumberland to the Wash, 982; front the Wash to the Thames, 214; and from the Thames to Cornwall, 791. This makes a total of 2,302 females.
§ THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHThe noble Viscount is quoting the figures of aliens in prohibited areas?
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEYes, this last batch which I am giving.
§ THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHWhy are they allowed to be there at all?
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEThe chief constables on the spot have, after full inquiry and consultation with the military authorities, discretion to say who shall be allowed to remain. The military authorities have power over and above that, under the Defence of the Realm Act, to order the removal of suspicious persons and those whose presence is considered undesirable. I understand that the persons who have been allowed to remain are those who, after very careful inquiry by the authorities, are considered to be quite harmless. They have been allowed to remain with the consent of the military authorities.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDIs it quite certain that the military authorities do not mind these people being there? Certainly there are military authorities in Scotland, at any rate, who are moving heaven and earth to get rid of aliens, as such; yet all down the coast of Scotland there are still aliens. I asked this question six or eight weeks ago, and I find that in the interval of time the number of alien males within prohibited areas has shown very small decrease indeed, and to-day there are actually 3,500 alien enemies living within prohibited areas. Again, the prohibited areas which the noble Viscount specified by no means exhaust all the prohibited areas in the country; so that the figure which he has given us is quite incomplete. No mention was made by him of the several prohibited areas in Ireland and on the West Coast.
To-day, after five months of war, there are 3,500 aliens living within prohibited areas! I consider that women alien enemies, of whom there are 2,302, are every bit as dangerous as male alien enemies. The idea that you should leave the women in a prohibited area and exclude the men is farcical. I have heard these figures from the noble Viscount with great disappointment. I had hoped that after an interval of six weeks there would have been sonic improvement, but there has been a perfectly insignificant change. However, I hope that since the raid on the East Coast the number of aliens in that particular area at any rate have been materially reduced.
§ THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTHIt seems to me that the matter is in extreme confusion. Here you have an Act for the Defence of the Realm which confers certain powers on certain authorities under certain conditions to deal summarily with persons who are suspected of treasonable designs. At the same time you prohibit certain areas, but I have just heard from the noble Viscount opposite that in these prohibited areas there are still a very large number of aliens. Why should you have any alien enemies in a prohibited area at all? What is the object of having a prohibited area if alien enemies are not all cleared out?
THE EARL OF MEATHMy Lords, it appears to me that Parliament has expressed an opinion in one direction and the officials have altered it in another. Of course, His Majesty's Government have, so long as Parliament permits it, the power to do as they like, but it certainly does appear to me—and I am sure to many of your Lordships—a most extraordinary thing, that we should legislate in one direction and that the legislation should be undone, as it were, in another direction. If we prohibit areas, why are aliens to be permitted to remain there because certain chief constables think those people are harmless? Are we to be governed by the chief constables or by Parliament? Parliament has expressed a wish in one direction; the officials, apparently supported by the Government, think the other way. As a humble member of this House I protest against alien enemies being allowed to remain in areas which have been prohibited by Parliament.
§ LORD ST. DAVIDSThere was one point in the answer of the noble Viscount on the Front Bench winch I did not quite understand. I should like to ask whether the figures which he gave of alien enemies in this country and of alien enemies still living in the prohibited areas include naturalised aliens or not.
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALENo, they do not. With regard to what has been said by noble Lords opposite, I can only repeat that my information is that these people have been allowed to remain in certain areas only after very careful consultation between the military authorities and the police and after exhaustive inquiries have been made in regard to them.
LORD MONCREIFFMay I ask how exhaustive these inquiries are and when they are made? After the raid on the East Coast, very curiously, forty aliens were within the next day expelled from Hartlepool. It seems to me that it took a very long time to find out that they were not desirable people to have there.
§ LORD NUNBURNHOLMEMy Lords, I should like to ask the noble Marquess who leads the House to put into force stronger orders under the Defence of the Realm Act. Exactly twenty-four hours before the bombardment of Scarborough a German lady whom the police had placed under observation left the town. That looks rather curious, and as if she knew all about it. I might add that she has never been seen since. There are on the East Coast of Yorkshire in the prohibited areas a good many naturalised Englishmen and aliens, and many of the people in my county, in the towns on the coast., think that the time has come to clear out all these people en masse. We do not see why we should take any risks considering the state of war we are in. Many of these aliens and naturalised Englishmen may have resided in this country for many years and may be perfectly respectable people, but the general view is that no risks should be taken and that they should be either deported or interned.
§ THE EARL OF SELBORNEMy Lords, I think the conduct of the Government in this matter of spies is incomprehensible. Surely the whole point is that which has been made by the noble Lord who has just sat down—Why should we take any risks at all? It is not a question whether this or that naturalised person or alien satisfies the police inquiry; he or she may be a perfectly harmless individual, but we cannot afford to take any risks at all. That is why I say that the conduct of the Government in this matter is incomprehensible. Every time this subject is brought forward we are told that the naval and military authorities are satisfied, but if any of us speak to any of the naval or military authorities who have jurisdiction on the coast they never by any possible chance express themselves as satisfied. The criticism I would make is this. What we are suffering from is divided authority. Surely this matter of the spy ought to be put in the hands of one single man, and he 277 should be responsible to the whole country for our safety in that respect. So long as the authority is divided—partly civilian, partly naval, and partly military—I do not believe you will ever be able to run home responsibility or make quite sure that the matter is being wisely dealt with. I am no advocate for hounding harmless aliens; personally I would treat them with every consideration; but I do say that on our coasts and where the Government themselves have established prohibited areas it is not a question of humanity between us and them but a question of trusteeship, and we cannot afford to run any risk. That is why I ask the Government to look at this matter from rather a different point of view—to look at it exclusively from the point of view of the safety of our seamen and our coastal defence and to put the whole and sole responsibility, under the ample powers which I believe they now possess, in the hands of one man selected by them and thoroughly trusted.
§ *VISCOUNT GALWAY had given notice to call attention to the recent bombardment of towns on the East Coast. The noble Viscount said: As the main point to which I wished to call the attention of your Lordships' House in my Question with reference to the present state of the East Coast after the recent bombardment was this matter of aliens residing in prohibited areas, perhaps your Lordships will allow me to say that there is a general feeling of insecurity on the whole of the Yorkshire coast since the bombardment owing to aliens being still left there. It is a matter of common knowledge that signalling has been going on for some months, and also that intelligence has been given to the enemy somehow or other; and there is a fear that His Majesty's Government do not quite realise how strong the feeling of in-security is. I hold that it is the duty of the Government to see that all doubts about responsibility are removed. Also I must frankly say that a great many people up North have some doubt as to whether His Majesty's Government are really as determined as they might be to enforce their powers against alien enemies in this time of war. Perhaps the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack not mind my saying that his well known admiration for Teutonic kultur does not tend to re-assure them, and they think that such strict steps are not taken against aliens as ought to be taken.
278§ This feeling of insecurity to which I have alluded comes from the different orders given by the Home Secretary, and, if I may say so, his vacillation. There is no doubt about it that there must be some supreme power behind the military authority or the chief constable when people are arrested one day and released the next. And from what I gather in the newspapers to-day the removal of several aliens from the coast which was supposed to have been done within a week has now been suspended. That looks as if there is interference, either from the Home Office or somewhere else in London, with the local people. I fear the Government wish to have the power to make a scapegoat of someone, on the ground that authority had been given to intern these men but that they had not been interned. The Government should see to it that no alien is allowed to reside in prohibited areas after the notice of the prohibited areas had been given. If it is said that such a course would cause these "poor aliens" inconvenience, I myself hold that the life of one of our gallant sailors is worth more than any amount of inconvenience caused to any alien enemies who ever resided in this country. I hope that your Lordships' House will support the view I take that no question should be thrown on the local or the military authorities. Let an Order go forth from the Home Office to say that no alien, whether naturalised or not, shall reside within a certain distance of the coast. It ought to be a general order for the whole of England, and not for particular portions. We should then know where we are, and it would do away with spying. If this were done it would give great satisfaction. As has been said before, these aliens, whether naturalised or not, boldly declare that they do not lose their individual nationality. Under those circumstances I trust that the Government will issue an Order that no further aliens should be allowed to reside on the coast. There were one or two other questions which I was going to put. One was with regard to the compensation to be paid to the people who suffered from the recent bombardment; the other was with regard to the removal of the civil population in case of an invasion. Those points are met by Questions which have been put down in the names of Lord Southwark and the Duke of Rutland for to-morrow, and I do not propose to raise them now.
279THE MARQUESS OF CREWEMy Lords, I think it would be convenient if I said something now upon what has fallen from my noble friend opposite, and with regard to the Question of my noble friend behind me (Lord St. Davids), and the points raised by the noble Earls opposite, Lord Crawford and Lord Portsmouth. The noble Earl on the Front Bench opposite (Lord Selborne) asked that the whole matter should be placed on a different footing—that instead, as is now the case, of the military and naval authorities having the responsibility under the Defence of the Realm Act and utilising for purposes of local inquiry, and where necessary for local action, the police force of the neighbourhood, the whole business should be placed under one man who would be, as I understand, supreme in the matter. But the noble Earl did not point out what the qualification or the nature of that one man should be. Presumably he would be an official in London. In that case, unless you go on the principle of interning all enemies of all ages and both sexes, which could be done without the appointment of any special official, your single official must act through some local source of information. It would be conceivable, of course, that the whole business should be undertaken by naval or military authorities under what is vaguely called Martial, Law—that is to say, that a file of soldiers, or some bluejackets, could march into any one's house and remove the alien therefrom without question. The other alternative, the one which we have adopted, is to use the local police in the different counties as possessing more intimate knowledge of the circumstances, though acting at the instance and under the authority of the military and naval authorities respectively.
§ THE EARL OF SELBORNEI will tell the noble Marquess exactly what was in my mind. I mean a man like Major-General Baden-Powell—that kind of man. I do not necessarily say him, but he happens to be unemployed at the moment; therefore I mention him. Take such a man. You give him civil, military, and naval advisers on his staff and put the whole of the police, for this single purpose, under his authority, and he is free to move. I would not for a moment suggest that he should remain in London; as a matter of fact, he ought to travel about a great deal. But you should have one single man responsible for this particular task, and all the authorities, civilian, naval, and military, should have instructions to act under him.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEI confess I am not quite clear as to how a scheme of that kind would work; nor do I feel certain that its results would be altogether more palatable to noble Lords opposite than those which obtain at present. If you are going to inquire into the merits of particular cases at all, if you are not going to make a generally clean sweep of all aliens—I will come to the question of the particular prohibited areas in a moment—some inquiry must be made into particular cases, and it is almost certain that the result would be that in some cases exceptions would be made. On a former occasion when this matter was under discussion here I pointed out a fact which I think has not been alluded to by any subsequent speaker and certainly has not received any contradiction, and it is rather a curious point. It is this, that even those who are most anxious to see drastic measures taken with regard, as they say, to all aliens, have two or three among their personal acquaintances—it may be an elderly German governess, or an Austrian biologist who has lived all his life in this country—
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEOr it may be a person of any class or of any politics. You find that everybody knows a certain number of individuals that he himself would except; and, as I pointed out when I was mentioning this matter before, in another place an hon. Member who made a very strong speech on the subject mentioned that he knew half-a-dozen who certainly ought to be excepted because they were beyond any sort of suspicion. And, as I pointed out the other day, if you multiply that small number by the number of those who possess harmless friends you soon reach the figure of hundreds or thousands on behalf of whom it is desired that an exception should be made.
The noble Viscount who spoke last, Lord Galway, brought a charge against the Home Office that there had been some vacillation in their action, and that whereas it had first been ordained that all aliens should be removed from prohibited areas, that ordinance was afterwards withdrawn in obedience, as the noble Viscount thought, to instructions from London. I am given to understand that this is not quite an accurate account 281 of what occurred. The particular Orders were issued, as all those Orders are, by the military authorities on the North-East Coast. They required that not only all aliens should be removed a certain distance from the coast but also all persons of foreign origin, even though they were British subjects. The result was a vast deal of local complaint. It must not be supposed—and I think this is a point worth noticing—that the objections to summary action of this kind were appeals ad misericordiam from the people themselves. In most cases, I am given to understand, they were appeals from their employers, British subjects such as ourselves, who cannot do without the particular services rendered by these individuals, possibly skilled in certain branches of manufacture or of knowledge; and among those employers you have to include the country, because there are certain processes of the utmost importance to us all at this moment connected with keeping up various supplies which as matters now stand can only he carried out to the full extent required by the exigencies of the situation by the utilisation of the knowledge of people, in some cases of foreign birth, naturalised in some cases before the war, perhaps for many years, and against whom as individuals no suspicion is entertained by those best qualified to judge.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEI should think that that applies to all persons employed in different processes of manufacture—the manufacture of goods for the use of the Government in a great many parts of England and in a great many different departments. In other matters we are always told that we ought to trust the knowledge and experience of the men on the spot, and, if you are not prepared to make an absolutely sweeping removal of everybody, the local police authorities are presumably better acquainted with the past, with the character, and with the probable actions of any one individual included in this category than anybody else can be.
Then, as I was saying, the noble Viscount (Lord Galway) accuses the Government of vacillation. He particularly mentioned the Home Office; but, as a matter of fact, both the promulgation of the general removal 282 and its subsequent withdrawal were the work of the military authorities. The Home Office had no concern with it whatever; and the step was taken on the ground, I fancy, of the sort of hardship that I have mentioned. It was also, I believe, alleged, but I do not know with what foundation, that an Order of that kind was in itself ultra vires. I lay no stress on that, because I am not sufficiently acquainted with the arguments that were used. But I can assure noble Lords opposite that as the result of what they have stated we shall give further consideration to the definite demand which they have made—namely, that all prohibited areas should be swept clear of all people of alien birth, whatever their position, character, or usefulness. I am unable, however, to say that the result will be such as noble Lords hope, because a great number of considerations are involved. Although we entirely agree with what fell from the noble Viscount, that the safety of any of the defenders of the country absolutely weighs clown all considerations of the convenience of individuals or even of national profit—I would put it as high as that—yet at the same time noble Lords must see, I think, that there are two sides of the question when you come to so sweeping an action as that.
I pass to the question of the repatriation of aliens asked by my noble friend behind me (Lord St. Davids). So long ago as October last the various Governments concerned began to discuss the question of the repatriation of all male enemies not of military age and all women and children of aliens who were willing to return to their own country. The result was that when Germany and Austria agreed to extend reciprocal treatment to British subjects in those countries, we agreed to allow the return to Germany and Austria of all women and children and of all male persons either above or below the age of service. The arrangement with Austria was announced on October 10, and that with Germany early in November. Others were also included—ministers of religion, doctors, and, in the case of Austria, invalid people even though of military age. The Germans made a reservation in the case of officers or retired officers; and everybody made a reservation in the case of persons suspected of any form of espionage or definitely suspected on any other grounds, but that includes a comparatively small number in all the countries concerned. What has 283 happened is that a very large number have been unwilling to go; and the House, I think, will see that in the absence of compulsion—which has not been suggested by my noble friend, although from something he said I rather gathered he would not altogether object to it—it is clear that just those of whom we should be most glad to be rid, the sinister class of persons mentioned by Lord Crawford, who are presumably well-to-do, are not in the least likely to go even though their ticket was offered them either to Germany or Austria. But, as a matter of fact, a large number have gone. The number of women and of children under 14 who have gone is between 6,000 and 7,000, and the number of males over 14 is about 2,300.
My noble friend suggests that an offer should be made to pay the cost of repatriation. So far as indigent people are concerned, it appears to be scarcely necessary to make any offer of that kind, because the American Embassy has had placed at its disposal funds, both by the Austrian and German Governments, for the repatriation of indigent subjects of those two countries; and, similarly, we have placed a fund at the disposal of the American Ambassadors for the repatriation of British subjects from Austria and Germany who cannot afford to come home themselves. The American Embassy between September 1 and the end of December repatriated 1,137 destitute German subjects, and 328 applications for free tickets to Austria-Hungary have been granted—that meaning a larger number than the number of tickets, because it includes tickets issued for whole families. I think my noble friend will perhaps be disposed to agree that in the circumstances a general offer to defray the expenses of those who wish to return would not have a very wide or a very useful effect. As I have tried to point out, it would not have the effect of getting rid of the sort of people mentioned by Lord Crawford, the people who desire to remain here for their own purposes; and the number of those who are not indigent but would be tempted by the mere cost of the railway ticket to go would, I think, be quite small. Therefore it is not proposed on behalf of the Government to make a general offer of that kind, although so far as the indigents are concerned there is no reason to suppose that any one who desires to go is prevented by want of means from making the journey.
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONMy Lords, on the subject of resident aliens it would be clearly undesirable at this hour to continue the debate, and I would only like to make two observations with regard to what has fallen from the noble Marquess the Leader of the House. He spoke about trusting to the view and the authority of the men on the spot, and by the men on the spot he appeared to indicate in the main the police. But unfortunately in many areas there is not complete agreement in the view of the men on the spot. Take the case which was mentioned by the noble Viscount behind me. After the bombardment took place on the East Coast the other day the police authorities of Sunderland removed a large number of resident aliens from the coastal area to the interior, but the action of the local police, who are the local men to be trusted, according to the noble Marquess, was over-ruled by the military authorities, and they were brought back. Therefore you do not get that absolute co-ordination of authority which he postulates.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEThe noble Earl understands that the police have to take their instructions from the military or naval authorities.
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONYes. The noble Marquess concluded by saying that he and his colleagues would consider the matter before we meet again. It is perfectly certain that this question will be raised again in this House of Parliament and also in the other. The noble Marquess made an ingenious speech, giving us the plausible reasons that are advanced by people for the particular treatment of their friends in particular places. No such considerations, it appears to us, ought to prevail in view of a great national emergency. I often think, when I hear Ministers make these defences, that they hardly realise the depth and the seriousness of the impression that exists about these matters in the country. You have only to look at what takes place in this House; it is a reflection of that attitude. There are not more than thirty or forty noble Lords in the House at present, but from both sides the strongest possible appeals and protests have been made to His Majesty's Government. That common feeling between the two sides here is reflected outside. It exists everywhere in the country, and whatever may be the 285 decision of His Majesty's Government—the noble Marquess did not hold out to us a very favourable prospect—he may be certain that when Parliament reassembles in February the matter will be raised again here, and it will certainly be raised again in the other Reuse of Parliament; and whether a total removal of aliens from the prohibited areas is possible or not, you may be certain that we shall not rest until we get the matter put upon a much safer and sounder footing than it is at the present time.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDI will not detain your Lordships many moments, but I should like to say how much I approve of the proposal made by Lord St. Davids. It seems to me a thoroughly sound, common sense, businesslike proposal. I do not think the Leader of the House quite met the noble Lord's point. The noble Marquess said the offer had been made to these people to be sent home. If it has been made, it has never been published. Individuals amongst the people may have told the individual alien, "Now, if you want to he sent home, the Government will do it"; but that is a very different thing, and would convey a different impression to the mind of the alien, from a definite statement made in Parliament that the British Government is prepared, as I gather, to send any alien home. At the end of his speech although at the beginning he said the offer had been made, the noble Marquess said that no general offer should be made. There I differ. The noble Marquess agrees the offer should be made in specific and particular cases, yet he objects to doing it in a collective and public manner. The advantage of doing it in a collective and public manner would be that every alien would know that the offer is open. I doubt whether fifty per cent. have heard yet of the offer. In the 286 second place, an offer made by a great Minister of State would go all over the world. It would show that we had none of those feelings of acerbity, as illustrated by harsh treatment, alleged against us in Germany. Those who did not wish to avail themselves of the offer, as Lord St. Davids has said, would show that they did not object to remaining in this country. Those who did go I am sure would be a good riddance. As the noble Earl has said, we shall repeat this question; and I hope that the Government, who appear to be sympathetic, will give the official status to their offer which attaches to a statement emanating from a Minister. I do not think there is reciprocity from Germany in this matter. I myself do not mind that. I would get rid of these people who want to go, whatever the measure of reciprocity might be.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEI cannot tell the noble Earl what the number of English people is who have come from Austria and Germany, but a great number have come, and their expenses have been paid by the Government.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORDA great many aliens who are here will not go back. The noble Marquess himself knows the great, powerful, alien enemy influence there is in this country, and even at the expense of Government funds those men will not go back. It is the ordinary German or Austrian citizens who, if guaranteed a through passage home, would many of them go. If you repatriated the whole of the aliens at large in this country, it would not cost more than one and a-half hours of the present cost of the war.
§ House adjourned at ten minutes before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.