Lords Sitting of 6 January 1915

JUDICIAL BUSINESS.
Ordered, That all periods of time limited by Standing Orders Nos. III, IV, V, and VI be extended to the third sitting day of the House for Judicial Business.
The Marquess of HERTFORD—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.

DEFENCE OF THE REALM CONSOLIDATION ACT, 1914, AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
LORD PARMOOR: My Lords, I beg to introduce and to move the First Reading of a Bill to amend the Defence of the Realm Consolidation Act, 1914, and to restore to civilians their right to be tried in the ordinary Criminal Courts.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 1a, (Lord Parmoor.)
On Question, Bill read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 25.)

THE WAR.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (EARL KITCHENER): My Lords, when I last addressed your Lordships six weeks ago General Joffre had just sent up strong reinforcements to our fighting line, thus enabling Field-Marshal Sir John French to shorten the line of front he held and to give some relief to his hard-pressed troops who had been so continuously working in the trenches. The Germans having failed in their attempt to penetrate our line, their Staff in the last week of November was busily engaged in transferring from the Western theatre of war several Divisions which were required to meet the critical situation about Lodz in Poland which I then described to your Lordships. This movement of troops from West to East was continued through the first week of December, but the enemy in the Western theatre was left in sufficient strength to hold the elaborate system of parallel lines of entrenchments and with the support of an effective though reduced Artillery to contain the Allied troops.
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During the month of December the Allied forces have made progress at various points. Very gallant efforts have been made to take the enemy's trenches and to recapture trenches temporarily lost. The tide of battle has ebbed and flowed with varying success to either side. The French Army, in spite of the very unfavourable weather, has made noteworthy progress East of Rheims and in Southern Alsace. The operations have for some time, however, resolved themselves into a phase of siege warfare and every up-to-date invention for throwing bombs and grenades into the trenches has been constantly used. Our troops have been subjected to the hardships inseparable from a winter campaign, but, by a system of reliefs, the severe strain which the men have undergone in the trenches has been minimised. Our soldiers, needless to say, have exhibited a constant cheerfulness and resource which redound to their credit.
Although, as I said, there has been a continuous series of trench operations, the only important engagement between the British Forces and the Germans was on December 20, when the trenches held by the Indian troops were violently attacked at Givenchy. The Indians were, to a certain extent, surprised by the enemy and some of their trenches were captured, only to be retaken the following day with considerable loss to the enemy by the First Army Corps which had been in reserve. The line thus reassumed has since been entirely maintained, and the Indian units have enjoyed a period of relief from the trenches. Sir John French's force has been increased by a number of Territorial units and by another Division attached to which is a fine Canadian regiment.
In the Eastern theatre at the end of November the German Army, reinforced by troops transferred from the Western theatre, were able to extricate themselves, at great cost of life, from the critical situation in which they then were about Lodz. Assuming the offensive on the left bank of the Vistula, they succeeded in advancing by the middle of December to the line of the Rivers Bzura and Rawka, some 30 miles west of Warsaw. Despite repeated severe attacks, our gallant Russian comrades have for more than a fortnight frustrated violent German efforts to advance any nearer to Warsaw. German aspirations in Poland

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have thus suffered a severe check, and it is evident that the Germans now realise the infinite difficulty of winter operations in Russia and are specially hampered by their faulty line of communication. Their casualties, moreover, have been very numerous.
In East Prussia the situation has undergone but little change since the Russians succeeded at the end of November in driving the German Army from its prepared positions within the German frontier. On the right bank of the Vistula, in the Mlawa region, the German advance has also been arrested. In the first half of December the invading force was met by bold Russian tactics which compelled the Germans to retire behind the German frontier, and though Mlawa itself is once more temporarily in German hands, the right bank of the Vistula may be considered clear of the enemy, whose attempts to cross that river from South to North have been successfully repulsed.
In Galicia at the end of November Cracow was being bombarded, and the Russian advanced forces had penetrated nearly to the Plains of Hungary. In the middle of December the Austrians, having been reinforced, assumed the offensive and Pushed back the Russians some 35 miles. But this success was short-lived. With great gallantry the Russians have gradually forced back the Austrian right wing once more to the Carpathian passes. The Austrian retreat in the latter part of December has been marked by very severe casualties, and, in addition to vast numbers of killed and wounded, 50,000 Austrians are prisoners of war.
One of the brightest spots in the military operations during December has been the extraordinary achievement of the gallant Serbian Army. At the end of November their situation was very critical. The Serbian forces in their retreat had been obliged to evacuate a considerable portion of their territory. Belgrade was occupied on December I by the Austrians, who were then making strenuous efforts to turn the left wing of the Serbian Army. Suddenly the Serbians assumed the offensive all along the line with startling success and completely routed the Austrian forces in a way which evoked our highest admiration. Belgrade was re-occupied by this gallant
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Army exactly a fortnight after its capture by the Austrians. In these operations the Austrians suffered very heavy losses both in men and material, and the signal defeat of four or five Austrian corps by their valiant opponents cannot fail to have had a demoralising effect both throughout the military forces of the Dual Monarchy and amongst its civilian population. Meanwhile, the Montenegrin Army had advanced into Bosnia and captured important positions in the face of considerable Austrian opposition.
In the Caucasus at the end of November the Turkish Army was being pushed back towards Erzerum, and during the first ten days of December advances were made East of Lake Van. Turkish reinforcements were landed on the Black Sea coast and operated against Batum, while the left of the Turkish main Army, also reinforced, advanced from about Erzerum in a northeasterly direction and is now engaged with Russian forces about Ardahan and Sarykamish. We received news last night of a Russian victory in the Caucasus which should have far-reaching influence upon all the Turkish operations which are being conducted under German leadership in the Near East.
In Mesopotamia our Indian Expeditionary Force has continued its northern advance from Busra and attacked the enemy at Kurna on the left bank of the river Tigris, defeating the Turkish troops, inflicting heavy loss, and capturing prisoners and guns. Since then the troops have consolidated the positions taken, and have been warmly welcomed by Arabs of the surrounding districts.
The much-talked-of advance of the Turkish forces against Egypt has up to the present failed to materialise. Certain bodies of Turkish troops under German officers have been observed by our aircraft to be attempting to penetrate the country East of the Suez Canal but no large force has yet appeared, and there has been scarcely any contact with our troops guarding the Canal.
In East Africa our military forces are cooperating with the Royal Navy in carrying out certain operations against the enemy. An attack on the German position at Tanga was not successful, but we are

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now occupying certain points within German territory. Topographical difficulties, the want of water, and heavy bush form temporary obstacles to the further advance of the force which we are keeping in that field of operations.
Since I last spoke in this House the situation in South Africa has undergone a most welcome change. The sinister threat of a widespread rebellion, so cunningly planned and fostered by our enemies, has disappeared before the loyal and prompt action of General Botha and his Ministry. General Botha handled the military situation in a masterly manner which calls for unqualified praise and in a very short time stamped out the rebellion—if, indeed, it is not an exaggeration to apply such a term to the misguided action of a section of the population. This result gives us great confidence in the future success of any operations the General may undertake. In the Cameroons a mixed force under General Dobell has advanced with success and occupied several important positions.
On our own coasts, on the morning of December 16, German battle-cruisers bombarded for half an hour Hartlepool, Scarborough, and Whitby. At Hartlepool a battery replied with some effect, though it was out-classed by the heavy guns of the cruisers. No military advantage was gained, or could possibly have been gained, by wanton attacks on undefended seaside resorts, which attacks had as their chief result fatal accidents to a certain number of civilians, among whom women and children figured pathetically. The people in the three towns bore themselves in this trying experience with perfect courage and coolness, and not the least trace of panic could be observed.
These, my Lords, are the principal events which have taken place since I last had the honour of addressing your Lordships' House The great initial advantages which the Germans enjoyed by reason of the numerical superiority and extensive war preparations of their Army are certainly diminishing, while the Allies are daily increasing those resources of men and material that will enable them to prosecute the war to a triumphant end. Recruiting has proceeded on normal lines, and the anticipated decrease of numbers in Christmas week has given way to a rise
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which has almost restored the weekly return of recruits to the former satisfactory level. The Parliamentary Recruiting Committee has completed the distribution of Householders' Forms to inhabitants of country towns and districts, and, before Christmas, began to distribute to the large towns and cities. Over 218,000 names of persons willing to serve have been registered, and there is every reason to anticipate fruitful results from the valuable work which has been done by and through this Committee.
The Recruiting Department is also in close touch with Territorial Force Associations, municipal bodies, and Labour Exchanges, and everything is being done to facilitate the enlistment of those presenting themselves. It is worthy of remark that there is no better recruiting agent than the soldier himself, and in many cases a large portion of a man's leave has been spent by him in encouraging the youths in his home district to enter the service of their country. In the earlier stages of the war considerable difficulty was experienced, and anxiety felt, owing to the dearth of officers, but I am glad to say that we have now been able to fill up the officers' cadres of the Expeditionary Force, and a considerable surplus of training officers is available to draw upon. It is not amiss in this respect to recall to mind the appeal which I made in your Lordships' House and to point to the fact that, since the war began, no fewer than 29,100 officers have been appointed to the Army.
Close and vigilant attention on the part of the War Office staff has served to cope with, and gradually to overcome, the difficulties of securing supplies and equipment for those new forces to whose future activities we look forward with all confidence. The training of the Canadian Contingent and the new armies has been carried on lately under the worst weather conditions; but, in spite of this, a great deal of extremely good work has been done during the past month. The discomforts and hardships due to storm and wet and mud have been cheerfully met, and both officers and men are imbued with one common thought—that of preparing themselves as thoroughly and as rapidly as possible to take their part in the field, where I am sure they will worthily support their comrades in arms.
EARL CURZON or KEDLESTON: My Lords, before I proceed to comment upon the interesting statement to which we have just listened from the Secretary of State for War—and in passing let me say that I only wish it had been double as long and double as full—there are two preliminary observations which I would ask leave to make in the first place, my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition greatly regrets his continued absence from your Lordships' House. I am glad to say, as I had the opportunity of witnessing only a few days ago, that he is making excellent progress towards complete recovery, and that he has every hope of being back in his place here when your Lordships meet again at the beginning of February. The second observation is with reference to the circumstances under which we meet this afternoon and the scope of the discussions which will occupy the next two or three clays. When I pleaded, at the end of November last, that your Lordships' House should meet again at an earlier date than that fixed for the other House of Parliament—namely, the beginning of February—I urged that course on two grounds. In the first place, that His Majesty's Government might be disposed to make some statement to us about the progress of the war; and, secondly, that there might be questions which we on our side might feel anxious to address to the Government. I think the statement which the Secretary of State for War has just made fulfils the first condition; and as regards the second, the state of the Notice Paper will show that there are quite a number of subjects which noble Lords sitting on our side of the House desire to bring to the attention, of His Majesty's Government.
But in putting these Questions and in making speeches upon them, as many of us no doubt will do, I should like to explain what I am sure are the conditions which every one of us desires to observe. We desire to say nothing and to do nothing that shall in the smallest degree embarrass, impede, or hamper His Majesty's Government in the discharge of the overwhelming task that is laid upon them. We shall say nothing and do nothing that will interfere in any degree with the successful prosecution of this war to the only issue that is consistent both with the declarations of His Majesty's Ministers, speaking for the nation, and with the national honour itself. And, above all, we shall say nothing
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and do nothing, and, I hope, ask nothing, that is likely in the faintest degree to give information or to be of assistance to the enemy with whom we are fighting. Subject to those conditions, which I am 'sure everybody will accept, it appears to me that there is a field of action, of inquiry, and of speech which it is open to an Opposition on an occasion like this to occupy, which it is its duty to take up, and which it can cover with advantage both to the Government itself and to the nation as a whole.
We, as an Opposition, are in a rather peculiar position in this war. We have no share either in official responsibility or in executive authority in connection with the war. Many of us—myself for instance; know little more about it than the man in the street. I do not complain of that. It is an indispensable corollary of the constitutional system under which we exist in this country. But the fact that we know so little and have no authority does not deter us for one moment from giving His Majesty's Ministers, as we have done, and shall continue to do, the most unstinted support. And whilst speaking of that support I should like to say here, what I know to be true, that on many occasions we on this side, both in Parliament and in public, have refrained front making speeches and from asking questions where speech was tempting and where criticism would have been easy. In that course I can assure your Lordships that we shall continue.
But, after all, we have to remember that we of the Opposition are the representatives of a considerable portion of the nation. Six months ago I might have been discussing what proportion. I will not attempt such a task now. But as the representatives of a considerable proportion of the nation we hold, so to speak, a watching brief on their behalf. It is our duty to represent- their interests, anxieties, apprehensions—fears, if you like—with regard to this and to be the spokesmen of them in this House. It is in that light, my Lords, that we shall conduct our operations in this very short; session of this House of Parliament. And I am sure that nobody will be more willing to recognise the propriety of the canons I am laying clown than noble Lords who sit on the Bench s opposite. Governments, after all, are very human institutions, and a Government

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that is subjected to no criticism at all, even in a great national crisis like this, tends to become careless, to mistake silence for acquiescence, and very likely to develop an extravagant and almost pontifical sense of its own authority. I do not say that His Majesty's Government are likely to he thus affected. But we desire to assist them in exercising the necessary measure of self-restraint, and if we do so within the limits that I have laid down I am sure no complaints will come from the noble Marquess opposite, while if we transcend those limits I hope he will be the first to call us to order.
Now, my Lords, I turn to the statement to which we have just listened, and I hope the noble Marquess the Leader of the House and the noble and gallant Field-Marshal will excuse me if in sonic points I travel a little outside the limits which the Secretary of State for War has observed. He dealt with the question of Egypt. Meeting here on the first occasion since a great and notable change has taken place in the political status of Egypt, it is impossible for us to refrain from noticing that condition of affairs. I believe that we on this side of the House look with unmixed satisfaction upon what has taken place. It was obvious, when Turkey I entered as a combatant into the field, when she plunged into this most wanton and unprovoked and indefensible war against the Allies, and when, more than that, she endeavoured to justify an action which we know to have been the result only of personal ambition and political intrigue, as a Holy War—it was obvious from that moment that a great and an immediate change in the political status of Egypt was inevitable. The declaration of a Protectorate over Egypt, the setting up of a native Sovereign of the family of Mehemet Ali, the selection of the particular Prince who has been chosen for that office, the choice of the title which has been conferred upon him, seem, I believe, to the whole of your Lordships' House to have been prudent and wise. And I may say that it seemed to me a very dramatic and significant thing to read, as we did in the newspapers only yesterday, of this new Sovereign of Egypt being driven to the Palace where he was to be installed through streets that were lined by Egyptian troops, by Indian soldiers, by Australian and New Zealand contingents, and by English Territorials. It was an unheard-of scene,
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and set the seal of an almost world-wide approval upon the investiture of that Sovereign.
Before I pass from that question may I add that the most gratifying features of what has happened in Egypt appear to me to be these? In the first place, the change has been most warmly welcomed by the native population, who see in it a renewed security for their continued advance on the path of contentment and prosperity; and, in the second place, it has been not less warmly welcomed by those very Continental Powers in whom, only a few years ago, it would have excited grate suspicion and alarm. I do not believe that any considerable change in the political status of a country has been accomplished in modern times with greater satisfaction, both inside and outside its borders. It is, indeed, to the Egyptian people, for whom we stand as trustees, a fresh and further guarantee of our intention to discharge that trust; and to that intention I hope we shall remain true. The noble and gallant Earl said a word about the military situation in Egypt. The language he used was that the Turkish attack had "failed to materialise"—a very diplomatic way of expressing that, so far, it had been a complete fiasco. We welcome that assurance from the noble and gallant Earl. We have every reason to think that the unusually large forces that happen to be in Egypt at the present moment are thoroughly able to cope with any military danger with which the country may be confronted, and, for my own part, I have no shadow of doubt that, however Turkey may fare in any other of her ventures in this war, from the Egyptian venture she will reap no profit whatsoever.
I pass to the other parts of the world to which the noble and gallant Earl alluded. I must say that I thought he was very economical in his information. I have myself put down a Question on the Paper, addressed to the noble Marquess the Leader of the House, asking for information about the war in different parts of the East, and the noble and gallant Earl was good enough to anticipate the noble Marquess by giving a kind of general reply. May I say this about these remote scenes of fighting in Asia and in Africa? I am grateful for such information as the Government have given, but I do not think they have been altogether fair or generous

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about the matter. With the single exception of a statement on the subject made in reply to a Question by myself in November last, and of the accounts which we read in the newspapers from officers serving in those parts of the world, we have not been told anything of a war that has been going on in many parts of the world for five months. I ask the Government to remember that there are mothers with sons, wives with husbands, sisters with brothers serving in those parts of the world, and that they are just as much entitled to information as are the relatives of those who are serving almost within sight of our own shores. In these distant operations there is none of the glory or rélame of the battle-fields about which we hear so much at home. These people are left in long and agonising suspense with no news whatever, and I do ask His Majesty's Government—I ask the noble Marquess the Leader of the House, who is mainly responsible—to remember these considerations, and, if possible, to be a little more generous in the information which is given us in future.
Take, for instance, the case of the Persian Gulf, to which the noble and gallant Earl alluded. That has been in the main a river expedition, conducted under circumstances of great difficulty by Indian forces. All we know is that they have gone up and captured the important Turkish port of Busra, and the noble Earl told us just now, to our great satisfaction, that they have proceeded further up the river and taken a place named Kurna at the junction of the Tigris and the Euphrates —the traditional Garden of Eden of the Holy Scriptures. But that is all we have been told. I am not going to ask what are the future plans of His Majesty's Government in that quarter. I am not going to ask how many troops they have, or what they propose to do. But I would like to ask this, Who is responsible for this campaign?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: May I interrupt the noble Earl for one moment to remind him that, so far as this particular theatre of operations is concerned at the head of the Persian Gulf, there have been a series of communications to the newspapers containing a considerable amount of detail about the various operations that have taken place both at also and also at Basra.
EARL CURZON of KEDLESTON: I think that is quite true, and in so far as I was blaming the Government for inadequate information my remarks did not apply to this case. The question which I was putting when the noble Marquess rose was, Who is responsible for this campaign? Is it under the India Office?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: Yes.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: A further question I wish to ask is, Who is to pay for it? We had an important announcement made to us the other day as to the payment of Indian troops employed in Europe. Perhaps the noble Marquess will be able to tell us at a later date what arrangements have been made for the payment of the cost of this campaign. Before passing from that part of the world I should like to say that I am very glad that these operations are being conducted by the Government of India. I look forward with anticipation to a happy future for that part of Asia—Mesopotamia. This country once waved with corn and was occupied by a large and prosperous population, but it is now a desert with scarcely a trace of either residence or life. I hope that under the new conditions it may recover its old prosperity and that the desert may again blossom as the rose.
I pass to East Africa, the next point dealt with by the noble and gallant Earl, and here I believe that my critical observations in fairness apply. I do think that there has been undue reticence on this subject. With the exception of the statement which the noble Marquess made in reply to me in November and of a published statement in the newspapers regarding the disaster to which the noble and gallant Field-Marshal referred as having occurred on the coast in the month of November last, we have had, I think I am correct in saying, no information except that which we have obtained from the extracts from soldiers' letters which have appeared in the newspapers. From these we gather that there has been a remarkable exhibition of bravery and resource in that part of the British Dominions. It appears that at one time the Protectorate was in the gravest danger, both of attack by land and bombardment by sea. The forces on which they relied appeared to have been engaged in a distant part of the country. Nobody seems to have anticipated that

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anything was likely to happen, but the moment the danger was scented there was a rally of all the various parties concerned. Every Englishman—planter, mercantile clerk, or otherwise—appears to have at once volunteered; the whole country sprang to arms; Indian regiments and Imperial Service troops appeared on the scene; the Navy, I gather, co-operated; and I think I am justified in inferring from what the noble and gallant Field-Marshal said that the corner has been turned and that we are really now on the way to make a serious and successful advance. I think he even told us that we are occupying certain points within German territory, and only yesterday we saw in the newspapers that a successful bombardment had been effected of the German port of Dar-es-Salaam, south of Zanzibar. Perhaps the Secretary of State for India will allow me to ask a few questions before I leave this branch of the subject. What exactly has happened at Dar-es-Salaam? We read of the bombardment of the ships in the harbour and of their destruction, but I cannot gather from the newspapers whether we have seized and are in occupation of the town itself. Secondly, our anxieties were greatly relieved a little while ago by hearing that the "Königsberg," the roving comrade of the "Emden," had been shut up in a creek on the Eastern Coast of Africa, but since then we have heard nothing as to the fate of the ship itself or of its crew. If it can be given without indiscretion, I should like to ask for some information on that point.
Then, again, there have appeared in the newspapers from time to time a list of the casualties among officers, but I think I am right in saying that no lists have appeared of casualties in the rank and file. I wonder whether we might ask that that deficiency should be remedied? The last question I would like to ask on that point is, Under whom is this campaign being conducted? The British East Africa Protectorate is under the Colonial Office, but from the fact of the noble and gallant Earl replying on the point I take it that my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, who has a rooted objection to war, must have handed over his functions to the Secretary of State for War. If he has done so, I can only say that it is a source of profound relief to myself. But I am sure it would be interesting to your Lordships to know who is responsible
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for this area of fighting in British East Africa. Only one other observation on that point. I do not blame either the Government or the local officials for not having foreseen that war was going to break out. None of us, or very few of us, foresaw it in this country. But I think some blame attaches for there having been, so far as I can judge, no plan of campaign or operations at all. Indeed, one of the battalions of the King's African Rifles had been disbanded only a short time before, and had promptly been enlisted by the Germans. We should be glad of a little information on these matters.
Then a word about the Cameroons. The noble and gallant Field-Marshal told us, what I confess I did not know before, that the campaign there was being conducted under the command of General Dobell. I do not to this moment know whether this is a War Office campaign, or an India Office campaign, or by whom it is being waged. There are, I think, two expeditions going on in the country, both of which have attained a certain amount of success. They are being conducted under very difficult conditions as regards locomotion and climate. I read in the newspapers that the English and French are cooperating there. I gather from the assent of the noble Marquess that that is the case. I should be very grateful if he could give us any further information on the point. Many of your Lordships may feel inclined to say, Why take up the time of the House of Lords by talking about these distant places of which we know so little? I should like our brave countrymen who are holding up the national flag in those parts of the world to realise that our eye is just as much upon them as it is upon those who are fighting for our cause in Europe. We are just as grateful to them for the part they are playing as we are to our own comrades who have gone across the Channel. We mourn the loss of those who have perished there for our country just as much as we mourn those of our own friends and relatives who are now lying beneath the soil of Flanders.
One word only as to South Africa. The noble and gallant Field-Marshal congratulated General Botha, that singleminded and most resolute man, upon the success that has attended his suppression of the rebellion with which he was confronted in his own country. We join in

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those congratulations, and now we know that a much bigger and more serious task lies before him. He has to deal with an enemy long prepared, occupying an immense stretch of country, with great military resources organised for the purpose. It is good news to read in the papers of Boers and Britons marching side by side and commandoes meeting in order to take their part in this campaign. Every one of your Lordships feels that we may safely leave the matter in the hands of General Botha, and that he may be trusted, in the first place, to punish the gross act of treachery of which many of our fellow-subjects in that part of the world have been guilty; secondly, to defeat the plot that has no doubt been organised for years against the South African State; and, lastly, to relieve it for all time of any such menace in the future.
The noble and gallant Field-Marshal, after passing through these scenes of fighting, turned to the European field of war and gave us a succinct summary of the situation as it now exists. I will say nothing about the general situation in the centre and in the East of Europe except to join the Secretary of State for War in the congratulations which he offered, I am sure with the unanimous approval of your Lordships' House, to our various Allies—to the Serbians for the almost incomparable manner in which they have again driven the enemy out of their country and recovered their capital city; to the Russians, who seem to be achieving success in three theatres of war at the same time; to the Belgians, whom he did not happen to mention, but who are taking a gallant part in the attempt to recover their own country; to the French, who, holding a line of between 300 and 400 miles in length, are steadily pushing forward, and in the direction of Alsace appear within the last few days to have accomplished considerable success. We join with the Secretary of State in congratulations to all those combatant Allies.
Now I turn to the theatre of fighting which more immediately concerns ourselves, and I want respectfully to ask your Lordships to go a little bit beyond the Secretary of State and attempt, with a view to deciding what our future action must he, to form a true idea of what is the present position there. No doubt there is a great deal to encourage us in what has
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passed during the time even since your Lordships were last sitting in this House. Germany appears to have failed in her two Western objectives of Paris and Calais just as she seems to have failed in her Eastern objective of Warsaw. Her armies in Flanders are held up by the unbroken and unbeaten armies of ourselves and our Allies. Her great fleet has not yet dared to emerge from the safe retreat of her harbours and canals. Her troops have suffered almost incredible losses—losses proportionate to what, I am told, is the amazing bravery that her troops have displayed. And, as the noble and gallant Field-Marshal told us, our own troops, having assumed the offensive, are making a slight but still an appreciable advance. Those are the factors, as I see them, that are to the good. Now let us look to the other side. The German armies are still in occupation of the whole, except a limited corner, of Belgium. They are still in occupation of a large portion of the territory of France. There is at present no evidence, so far as I can see—I have no right to prophesy as to the future—no evidence of impending exhaustion of resources, either in men, ammunition, or guns. These tremendous forces are inspired, as I just now remarked, by a bravery equal to that of our own soldiers. And this bravery, inexplicable to us as it seems, is enhanced by a hatred against ourselves of which we, with our more phlegmatic temperament, are incapable; and this hatred appears to be fortified rather than weakened by our insensibility, by the cement of the crimes which they themselves commit, and by the moral condemnation of the whole civilised world. That is, I believe, a correct account of the situation as it exists.
If that be so, I am the last to contend that it affords any ground for despondency or alarm on our part, still less any ground —of course, the reverse—for slackening of effort or weakening in our general purpose. Rather I would say, if I am right, that never since these five months began has there been a greater call for courage, resolution, and, above all, foresight, than at the present moment. Never was there a moment when we ought to set our teeth more grimly than now. Never was there a time when the whole nation ought to bend its will with a more inflexible devotion to the object which we have in view. I ask, Are we doing it? I want in the course of this debate His Majesty's Government to

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be a little more helpful in guiding us to a reply to that question than the Secretary of State has been in the observations to which we have just listened. If the answer to the question that I have put is to be given in terms of moral qualities or of material resources, I have no doubt what the answer will be. There never was a time when the bravery or constancy of our soldiers or the leadership of our Generals was better; and there never has been a time when the productive capacity of this country as directed to the provision of the necessities of war has been more effectively utilised than at the present moment. I do not think there can he any doubt about those points.
But can we answer the question equally satisfactorily in terms of men? This war is tending to be largely a question of men. The other factors that I have mentioned being apparently more or less evenly matched between the various combatants, it is the numerical factor that will decide. Therefore I come to the question of men. There is not one of us in this House who has not got friends, relations, correspondents at the Front. We hear day by day what is going on and about the sentiments of our troops there; and I am hound to say that, from all that I have heard, there is an almost unanimous feeling among our men at the Front that what is wanted, in so far as they can be provided, of course, are men—men to relieve our wearied troops in the sodden trenches, men to fill the gaps caused by the appalling casualties going on from day to day, men to enable the Field-Marshal in command to push forward that advance to which the Secretary of State for War referred, and men to show our Allies that we are putting forward our full strength along with them in the conflict. We have been at War for five months. I am not going, to say, although I think I know, the members of men that we have at the Front. That would be an unwise and unpatriotic thing to do. I go further and say that I think the numbers which the Secretary of State for War has sent to the Front are amazing; and on August 3 last, when war commenced, if we had been told that in five months he was going to put this number at the Front, there is hardly one of us who would have believed it possible. I say that to the credit of the War Office. But that is not my point. My point is that there are those at the Front who think that the forces which are there
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in point of numbers contrast somewhat unfavourably with the strength of the armies that we are training at home; and for my own part I venture respectfully to think that the best service that the War Office could at the present moment render to those who are in the field would be to concentrate on the equipment of those soldiers in this country who are sufficiently trained to be able to go, and to send as many of them as possible to the Front with as little delay as may be.
Now may I pass to the situation in the future? I hope the Secretary of State will forgive me if I say that I listened to his observations on the subject of recruiting with sonic disappointment. I believe there is not one of us who had not hoped that he might be able to give us some definite information as to the degree of rapidity with which men are coming in in response to his call, and as to the adequacy of the arrangements which have so far been made to bring our men to the Colours. All that he told us just now was that recruiting is proceeding on normal lines. I wanted to hear that it is proceeding on abnormal lines. That is what I think is at the back of the wish and heart of every one of us. The noble and gallant Earl told us that numbers had fallen in Christmas week but were rising again since, and that the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee had obtained a register of a very large number of names of those who were willing to serve. This point is really of supreme importance. It is the whole question, and it is the question which I am bound, acting for the moment in the position which I fill, to press on your Lordships' House. What is the situation with which we are confronted, and what is the object which the noble and gallant Field-Marshal has in view? I can only take it from the indications afforded by the Government them selves. A little while back the First Lord of the Admiralty, Mr. Winston Churchill, made a speech in which he promised us an Army of twenty-five Army Corps, or a million of men, on the Continent in the spring, and only a few days ago we read in the newspapers that the new forces which are being raised are going to be organised in six Armies, the Generals of whom had already been appointed. These Armies, I observe, do not include either the Indian or the Colonial forces, and I think I am justified in assuming, therefore, that they would constitute—
EARL KITCHENER: They include the Indian Forces.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: And do they include the forces from Canada and elsewhere?
EARL. KITCHENER: No; they are not sufficiently trained yet.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: Then presumably these six Armies will be increased to a larger total when the Colonial forces have been trained. If we take the published figures of the War Establishment, according to which an Army means three Army Corps of two Divisions each—that is, six Divisions, or 120,000 men of all ranks—these Armies will represent, with Cavalry and other arms, a force of about a million men. That will be the Foreign Service Army. Then the noble and gallant Field-Marshal has also his Home Defence Army, which he is bound to keep in this country to guard the inviolability of our shores. This Army consists of Territorial Infantry, Territorial Mounted Brigades, and Fortress Defence troops. I am told that this Home Defence Army ought to consist of the best part of 500,000 men. Whether that is an exaggerated figure or not I cannot say, but about this I do feel clear— that the Home Defence Army ought to be a stable force; it ought to be under a single commander, and ought not to be a force which is continually being called upon to supply Generals, officers, and men to the Army serving abroad. There is a third Army—namely, the drafts required to fill the gaps arising from the awful loss of life at the Front. Remember that these gaps have to be filled almost the moment the troops are landed, because we know that the troops are taken direct from the landing places into the trenches, and as casualties may take place immediately the drafts have to be practically waiting. These appear to be the needs of the War Office—
EARL KITCHENER: I cannot quite accept that.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: Of course, I speak subject to correction by the great authority of the noble and gallant Field-Marshal. I am putting forward
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these views so that they may be corrected if they are wrong, as very conceivably they may be. But if I am at all approximately right in thinking that what the noble and gallant Earl wants is this Foreign Service Army at the Front, this Home Defence Army to keep our shores intact, and drafts to fill places caused by loss of life at the Front, then I imagine that the total forces he will require will be considerably over two millions, and may possibly be nearer three millions of men. What I want to ask the noble and gallant Earl is this. Will the men whom he is now seeking to obtain enable him to supply these forces? Is it really unreasonable to ask that the nation upon whom he is making this great call should have some idea of the extent of the sacrifices that they are asked to make and the number of men they are called upon to supply? Is it unreasonable to ask that we should know how many have been provided already, what are the deficiencies that remain to be filled, and, if there are deficiencies, whether the noble and gallant Earl is confident about his ability to fill them? I do not ask for one moment what use he proposes to make of these troops when he gets them, where he proposes to put them, and so on; but I think that the country would be in a better position to respond to the call which he is making upon them if they knew a little more about the extent and limits of the demand which is being made. I do not ask for a reply to a question of this sort straight away. The noble Marquess the Leader of the House, who, will perhaps speak later in the debate, may be either unable or unwilling to give a reply; but we shall be grateful, and I think the country will be grateful, for any information he can give us on the matter. Even if he cannot give us it to-day, it will be very germane to a discussion to be inaugurated by my noble friend beside me two days hence on the subject of the measures to be taken to insure a constant supply of reinforcements and of drafts, and it would help us, I think, to conduct that discussion with greater ability if we knew a little more than we at present do.
I apologise to your Lordships for having covered a very wide field of inquiry. But before I conclude, there are three questions which I can put almost in a sentence and which can be answered almost in a sentence by the noble Marquess if he is willing to do

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so. Firstly, as regards the regimental system in this country. One of the symptoms which a good many officers and other than officers have viewed with a god deal of alarm in connection with this war has been the very large number of officers who have been sent almost indiscriminately from their own regiments to others. We should be grateful for an assurance that these officers will he returned at the first opportunity. After all, the regimental system is the core and centre, almost the palladium, of our Army, and any breakdown of the regimental system would not only be profoundly unpopular with officers and men but would detrimentally affect the efficiency of the Army as a whole.
The second question concerns the Indian troops who are serving with the Army at the Front. These Indian forces have, as we know, been taking their full share in the fighting. They have been fighting under conditions without parallel in their own experience, or, I imagine, in the experience of any fighting force—conditions immensely trying to their physique, coming as they do from a dry and warm country, and conditions which expose to the severest test their qualities of courage and of endurance. Naturally, therefore, the casualties among them have been very great, and it is within my knowledge that many of these regiments have been woefully reduced in numbers. The question I ask is, Is the India Office taking steps, as far as possible, to keep up the strength of these depleted units? It is very hard upon any battalion, but it is hardest of all upon a battalion that is separated by conditions of race and religion and language from the people among whom it is fighting, to be reduced below its normal level and to find itself in circumstances in which it cannot do itself justice. Therefore I ask whether steps are being taken, as far as possible, to keep up the strength of these depleted units of the Indian Army.
EARL KITCHENER: I can answer that question in the affirmative.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: I am grateful to the noble and gallant Field-Marshal for that answer. I now come to the third question. Just before Parliament separated we had a short discussion
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in this House about the appointment of a Committee which had been instituted by the Prime Minister in the other House to deal with the question of pensions and separation allowances. We pressed unavailingly for some member of your Lordships' House to be placed upon that Committee. I do not desire to raise that question again, but as the Committee was instructed to sit almost de die in diem and was invested with powers which enabled it to act even without the sanction of Parliament, and as the matter is one of great importance especially with regard to recruiting, I hope I may be allowed to ask if we may expect to receive its Report before long.
In conclusion I have only this to say. First, I hope that my attitude of inquiry will not be held in the smallest degree to imply that we do not all of us offer our unhesitating and heartfelt congratulations to the War Office on the magnificent work it has done. It has our confidence; there is every reason for giving that confidence, and we hope to be able to continue to give it to the end. Secondly—I do not think it possible to omit this remark at the reopening of Parliament on an occasion so solemn as this in our history—I think we ought all of us here to lay, on behalf of this House, our wreath of sorrowing admiration on the graves of the thousands of men, our fellow-subjects, our fellow-countrymen, many of them our relations and friends, who have given up their lives for their country, and to vow by the simple crosses which have been erected above their graves that they shall not have died in vain. Thirdly, I do not think we ought to meet and speak here without sending, for what it is worth, our tribute of admiration for the extraordinary bravery, courage, endurance, and, to use the word of the noble and gallant Field-Marshal, cheerfulness of our men in circumstances that place an inconceivable strain upon every physical and moral faculty of man. Lastly—I do not think they have been mentioned yet, but they ought not to be forgotten in any of our discussions here—may we record our unfaltering confidence in the two commanders, Sir John French by land, and Sir John Jellicoe by sea, who retain now, as they have done from the day when they took up their joint commands, the enthusiastic devotion of their men and the entire confidence of the country.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, I have very little to add, so far as a general statement is concerned, to what fell from my noble and gallant friend behind me; but as I was appealed to more than once by the noble Earl opposite I will make a few observations dealing with the specific points which he raised. Perhaps I may be allowed to begin by saying that, like the noble Earl opposite and his friends, I regret the absence of the noble Marquess, Lord Lansdowne, who is the actual Leader of the Opposition, and on this side of the House we heard with the greatest satisfaction that there is a prospect that before long he may be once more in his place.
The noble Earl began by pointing out that the Opposition were in a somewhat special position in the discussions carried On during this war because, in the first place, although they were not engaged in the ordinary work of Opposition, yet they were not sharing the responsibility of His Majesty's Government in the actual conduct of the war, and were not in a position to obtain any great amount of daily information. It is, of course, quite true that the Government cannot, and would not if they could, shoulder off any of their responsibility either upon noble Lords opposite or upon any one else; and under our constitutional system the responsibility for everything that is done is bound to rest upon the Government and upon the Government alone. But I may remind the noble Earl that in some branches of our work we have been assisted by many of his friends. I note in particular the noble Earl opposite, Lord St. Aldwyn—who will allow me, perhaps, to express to him our congratulations upon his advancement in your Lordships' House—arid we have also had the advantage of the assistance of Mr. Austen Chamberlain, and, what is more particularly germane to this discussion so far as the Committee of Imperial Defence is concerned, of the regular co-operation of Mr. Balfour. It is, therefore, not quite a complete statement of the fact to describe the Opposition as altogether without information of what is occurring.
I will now deal with the various points on which the noble Earl touched. So far as the Persian Gulf is concerned, I pointed
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out to him that that is a campaign for which the Government of India are responsible, and it is being conducted by them so far, I am happy to think, with uniform success. I have really no information on that subject to add to what has already been given. There has been no serious fighting of any kind since the last statement was published; and although we are holding, as my noble and gallant friend pointed out, in some strength the advance post of Kurna, we are not at present making anything like a general advance into Mesopotamia. We are, I hope, strongly and safely placed, and that for the present, I think, must satisfy us.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: The cost of that campaign?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: As regards the cost of the expedition, the arrangement which has been made for all cases in which Indian troops are employed—and there, as the noble Earl knows, only troops from India are employed—is that their normal expenses should be paid by India and the remainder should be charged to the Imperial Government. Whether that arrangement will be the final one in this particular case when the whole matter comes to be considered—I make a similar reservation with regard to every case in which Indian troops may be employed—I am not in a position to state; but provisionally, at any rate, that arrangement holds good. As the noble Earl is well aware, in many matters connected with expenditure in the Persian Gulf it is the custom for the two Governments to pay half and half. How an arrangement of that kind would work out as regards the payment of troops I have not so far endeavoured to calculate; and at present the other arrangement is the one which holds good.
Then the noble Earl asked some questions and made one or two complaints, I think not on his own behalf but on behalf of others, with regard to the East African campaign. Those operations are being conducted by the War Office, not by the India or the Colonial Office. I will inquire as to the matter of the casualty lists—that is to say, the casualties of the rank and file—and will see whether they have been received in full as yet, and when they have been there can, of course, be no difficulty as to their publication here. But as regards

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the general complaint of absence of information, I thought that the comparison which the noble Earl made between the position of the relatives of those who are engaged in Europe and those who are fighting in East Africa was somewhat overstated by him. It surely is the fact—is it not?—that even those whose relatives are engaged at the Front in Europe receive—except so far as they are able to get personal letters from their friends—an exceedingly small modicum of information. Therefore it is hardly fair to assume, as the noble Earl appeared to, that there is so marked a difference between the position of the relatives of the two sets of officers or soldiers concerned. I can assure the noble Earl that, so far as those are concerned whose relations have been killed or wounded, we have endeavoured to supply them with all possible information both as to the time and place of the casualty as soon as we have received it ourselves; but it was some little time after the more formidable operations which occurred that full details were received by the War Office, or by the India Office so far as the Indian troops were concerned. The bombardment of Dar-es-Salaam, about which the noble Earl asked, was a purely naval operation and no military force was engaged or any landing made. Then as regards the West African operations—
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: I forget whether I asked the noble Marquess, but at any rate I meant to do so, if he could tell us anything as to the "Königsberg," which was shut up in a creek, and its crew. Then there was the further question about East Africa—under whom is the war being conducted?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I have informed the noble Earl that it is being conducted under the War Office. So far as the "Königsberg" is concerned, I have no immediate information; but so far as I know the ship is in the same place as when it was last heard of, and therefore is debarred from engaging upon active operations of any kind.
As regards the operations in West Africa, those are being conducted largely by the French in concert with ourselves. They are, in fact, something of a repetition on a small scale of the state of things at
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the Front in Europe. I believe that the French have placed themselves under the general orders of General Dobell as senior officer, but as a matter of fact the proportion of French troops employed is, I fancy, considerably greater than ours. Those operations are conducted, as the noble Earl may be aware, by Colonial forces so far as we are concerned in them. I need not add anything to the eloquent tribute which the noble Earl paid to General Botha and his Government in South Africa of whom the whole Empire has so much reason to be proud. Nor is it possible for me to add much to what my noble and gallant friend behind me stated upon the European situation.
The noble Earl gave an interesting and, I think I may say, a careful account of his views on the general situation as concerns the supply of men at home and their employment abroad, thereby, as he himself pointed out, almost initiating a discussion which the noble Earl, Lord Selborne, has put down for a later day. It was the noble Earl's object, I gathered, to pave the way for that discussion by some general observations of his own this afternoon. I have no criticism whatever to offer of the noble Earl's remarks so far as he desired to impress upon us all and upon the country generally the magnitude of the task in which we are now engaged and the need of a continued national effort without a moment's relaxation or pause. But as the noble Earl developed his subject I confess we felt on this side that once or twice he was beginning to get on somewhat dangerous ground—ground, at any rate, on which it is not possible for us to fellow him with anything like detailed speeches. To one observation of the noble Earl I desire to draw attention. He spoke of its being one of the tasks of the new armies to fill the gaps which are formed by these terribly heavy casualties of which we all know, and, although he may not have intended to do so, he appeared to imply that that task of filling the depleted ranks had not been in fact fully carried out hitherto. My Lords, that is not the case. As a matter of fact every casualty that has taken place in the ranks has been promptly replaced.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: I did not really suggest that. I made no such implication.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I am very glad to hear the noble Earl's contradiction, because both my noble and gallant friend and I thought,from the form in which he stated it, that it was rather a pious aspiration than a statement of fact, and I am very glad to have been able to set that matter right. Then the noble Earl made a general statement about what he conceived to be the military possibilities of the country, and spoke of our putting forward our full strength, as indeed it is clear that we must. The noble Earl did not, it is true, indulge in the kind of criticism which I have seen uttered and written, although he seemed to hint once or twice that those by whose side we are fighting might conceivably have some reasonable ground of complaint that we were not putting into the field forces at all proportionate to our general Imperial strength. It is no doubt true that, if you take the populations of the different countries engaged in the war, our original contribution to the fighting line was greatly less in proportion than that of some other countries; but in nuking that statement we have to bear various things in mind.
In the first place, we have to mention both the overwhelming strength of the Navy and the general service to the cause Of ail the Allies which the Navy is silently rendering, services which some may be tempted to overlook. In the second place it is only fair to point out that we never did profess to be a military nation in the sense that the whole manhood of the country was to be ready almost at a moment's notice to spring forward fully armed for the purposes of a Continental war. There have been some, it is quite true, who have held the view that we ought to have endeavoured to combine with our supreme Navy an Army on the Continental model. They were not very numerous, and those who hold that particular view have not, I believe, been represented in the front ranks of any political party. This is not the moment to attempt to argue at what sacrifice any attempt to institute a Continental Army of that kind ready for immediate foreign service—at what sacrifice such a national position could have been obtained. The question is a very wide one, and it opens up a field of discussion upon which I have no desire to enter. But when the noble Earl, who did not, it is true, give any direct countenance to that view, began to discuss the various
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methods in which the replenishment or the increase of the Army at the Front ought to take place, by what special methods and in what formations the Army at the Front ought to be strengthened, I thought then he was getting on to somewhat dangerous ground, upon which. I, at any rate, could not pretend to follow him.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: With all respect to the noble Marquess, I did not do anything of the kind. All that I did was to take the organisation that has been printed in the papers as being that of His Majesty's Government. I made no suggestion myself of the methods by which the Army ought to be supplied.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I understood the noble Earl to express a definite opinion as to the method in which the forces at the Front ought to be made up to strength or their strength increased. If I misunderstood him I am exceedingly sorry. As we all know, there are various methods in which that might be done, and I quite understood the noble Earl to favour one particular method.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: I should like to put it right, because it is an important point. I made no such specific or definite suggestion. The only part of my speech, I think, which could conceivably bear such an interpretation was the part where I said that the most urgent necessity was for men at the Front. I did not endeavour by any means to indicate the manner in which they should be supplied.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I am glad to hear that from the noble Earl. I do not think that the noble Earl will expect me to deal further with this subject on its technical side, because the specific questions which he desired to raise were addressed rather to my noble and gallant friend behind me than to myself. But he expressed some dread, I think, of the method in which response to the demand for men was being met, and he spoke of the sacrifices which the nation has to make. That is, of course, one way of putting it; but as a matter of fact the actual sacrifice is not made by the nation, but by this or that individual who forms part of the nation. It is the same kind of fallacy which we have been accustomed to meet with in connection with a commercial policy, where people speak of the commercial attitude of a particular country forgetting that that attitude is the sum of

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the commercial attitude of individuals. The important thing, no doubt, is to bring home to individuals in different parts of the country what the actual need is.
I think it is reasonable to say, so far as the supply of recruits is concerned, that when my noble and gallant friend used the phrase that recruiting is "normal" he was not speaking of the normal figure of peace times but of the figure during the strenuous weeks before the Christmas holidays, which fell somewhat during the days or weeks which are included in that holiday term. My noble and gallant friend is, I think, not discontented with the figures as they now exist. As many men are coming in as can be dealt with for the purposes of equipment and training. My noble and gallant friend has made no definite call for a final number of men. If such a call has to be made it will be made, and I, for one, should not doubt of the response which the country would make to it. But it is desirable that it should be realised that as a matter of fact it has not been made. I am afraid that we shall continue to find ourselves in a sharp difference of opinion with the noble Earl opposite and his friends if they expect that His Majesty's Government are going to state either the number of men which they desire to leave at home to resist a possible invasion, or the number of men which they hope to be able to equip for service on the Continent of Europe or anywhere else. As regards the latter figure it is, of course, almost a truism to state that from a military standpoint the number of men which we should desire to send to join the common cause of the Allies can only be limited by the possibility of equipping them, arming them, supplying them with the requisite drafts, and keeping going the regular supplies of ammunition and other warlike munitions. Every country, no doubt, would say the same. France, Russia, Germany, and Austria would all make precisely the same observation; and none of those countries, so far as I know, has given the smallest hint that it is at any period going to state figures of the kind which the noble Earl desires and asks us to state. Those figures certainly so far as our Allies are concerned are not known to us; and although, so far as we can, we may try to ascertain them about our enemies, I have no doubt that they adopt every possible method of concealing them from us, and, I have no doubt, also from their own friends.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: I am very loth to interrupt; it is not my practice to do so. But the Government themselves have stated the figures. I quoted Mr. Winston Churchill, the First Lord of the Admiralty. He has stated the strength of the forces which he hopes the Government will put in the field in the spring. I quoted the organisation, laid down by the Government itself, of the new armies. I was not suggesting the giving of anything improper; I was merely asking the Government to confirm their own calculations.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: If the noble Earl merely desires me to repeat the general observation made by my right hon. colleague the First Lord of the Admiralty, I am quite willing to do it. I do not, however, think that my doing so will add to the information which the noble Earl and his friends possess. But my remarks bore more particularly on the request which he made for a definite statement as to the forces requisite for home defence.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: No; I did not make such a request.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I think the noble Earl's memory is at fault if he thinks he did not. He himself named a figure of half a million, and asked what my figure was. I should have thought that that was, in fact, a definite request for what the Government considered to be the numbers which they desired to leave for home defence. I have no hesitation in saying, as regards home defence, what we have frequently argued in this House in former days, that the number which would be required to resist a possible invasion of the country must depend, in the first place, upon the number and quality of the troops conducting the invasion; and, secondly, the number of troops required to repel it must obviously depend to a great extent upon the quality of the defence force and the degree of training which it has received.
Then the noble Earl asked me about the Indian troops. My noble and gallant friend behind me told him what is the fact, that the Indian drafts have been regularly supplied. Nobody knows better than the noble Earl opposite that the

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position with regard to drafts of Indian troops is an infinitely more complicated and difficult one than that affecting our British Army. In India we have not the Reserve system which enables us to create an evergrowing Reserve for a depleted force, and the question of the particular employment of Indian troops is bound to depend, as the war goes on, to some extent upon the possibility of filling up the casualty lists, very heavy as they have been from the fine part which the Indian troops have played in the serious operations in the North of France and Belgium. I think I have now dealt with the various points that were raised.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: There were two other small points. First, the one about the regimental system—officers being taken away from their regiments.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I am afraid I am not competent to answer that.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: And there was the point of the Report of the Committee on Pensions and Separation Allowances.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I understand that the Report is still tinder consideration, and has not been issued because it is still under discussion on several points affecting particular Departments.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, I only rise to ask a question of the noble Marquess in reference to one portion of my noble friend's speech upon which I think he forgot to say anything. Questions have been raised with regard to numbers, upon which perhaps we may have something to say either to-morrow or on a later day; but there was one other very important question. My noble friend Lord Curzon had a fear lest the numbers which we are able to send to the Front should not be in proportion to the numbers who are ill training in this country. I think that my noble friend's point was really this. We are all aware that we have entered into this struggle without the same preparation on land as the foreign Powers have made and as our Allies have made. It is therefore the more essential that as troops become available the numbers sent to
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the Front should be in as large a proportion as they can possibly be to those in training. There is apprehension in many quarters that the actual equipment of troops to go to the Front is delayed in some degree by the immense preparations which the War Office has had to make to meet the very large number of men coming in, and especially during the winter, who require at home almost the same equipment as those sent abroad. Whatever course has to be adopted, even if it should lead to a temporary suspension of calling up the men who are ready to recruit or who have recruited, our desire would be to urge upon the Government that nothing should stand between the sending at the earliest possible moment to the Front, and therefore the equipment for that purpose, of all men who may be considered by the military authorities at home available. We should like to have an assurance from the noble Marquess upon that point.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I am very glad to have the matter so clearly put by the noble Viscount, and I am sorry I did not deal with it in replying to the noble Earl. I think it is quite safe to say—although I should wish that my noble and gallant friend could have been here to answer the question—that the fears which have been expressed by the noble Viscount as being prevalent are groundless. There is no ground for saying that any troops who might have gone to the Front, who are ready to go to the Front and who are wanted at the Front, are kept back because they are insufficiently equipped owing to demands which had to be satisfied in relation to any of the new forces. I think I can say quite distinctly that there is no foundation whatever for that particular charge, if charge it be.

NATURALISATION.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: My Lords, I have no desire to trespass at any length upon your Lordships' time, but I wish to put two questions to His Majesty's Government. First I desire to ask whether they will undertake to take the necessary steps, by special legislation or otherwise, to revoke certificates of naturalisation granted to aliens born of a country at war with us, who, by reason of their attitude towards the enemies of this country, are unworthy of English nationality.

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This point has been rather brought into prominence by the case of a man called Alders, who was German Consul for many years at Sunderland. Briefly the facts are these. This man was naturalised in 1905. The Home Secretary issued a circular to the effect that alien enemies could leave this country up to August 11—that is to say, nearly a clear week after the declaration of war. This man Ahlers, acting as German Consul at Sunderland—he was a naturalised Englishman—had been collecting German residents and sending them abroad. He was tried for high treason before the Durham Assizes, and was sentenced to death. Thereupon an appeal was lodged to the Court of Criminal Appeal. Now, Ahlers made no secret, in his cross- examination at the trial at the Assizes, as to his German sympathies. His defence at that time was that he was not technically aware on August 5 and 6, the dates upon which he committed these offences, that we were in a state of war with Germany. When the matter came before the Court of Criminal Appeal the conviction of the Durham Assizes was quashed, and it was quashed on account of what undoubtedly was an extraordinarily slipshod Proclamation of the Home Secretary. In that Proclamation, which allowed enemy aliens to return to Germany up to August 11, no distinction was made between belligerents and non-combatants. It would be very interesting to know how many regiments that Proclamation added to the cause of the German Fatherland and how many lives it lost to this country and to the Allies. Moreover, that Proclamation had another very bad side to it in that it allowed a large number of aliens to leave this country with a great deal of money. I am not, however, now disputing the finding of the Court of Criminal Appeal. I am advised that, as the law stands and in the circumstances, the decision at which the Court arrived was in law a proper decision. But I should like to call your Lordships' attention to this fact, that in arriving at that decision the Judges of the Court of Criminal Appeal were largely influenced by this Proclamation of the Home Secretary. The Solicitor-General, who was prosecuting Alders on the part of the Government, denied that this particular Order in Council gave any power to do an act which was unlawful in itself, or gave any power for an alien enemy to leave this country unlawfully. But that did not appear to the Judges to be accurate or
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defensible from a point of law. Mr. Justice Bankes said—
"It is abhorrent to my mind that, if the Secretary of State issued a circular after seeing it which would permit an armed enemy to leave the country, another man should be prosecuted for high treason for doing what the Order permitted."
And the Judges in their judgment said—
"It was sufficient to say that the Order in Council did lend some reasonableness to the appellant's belief."
It is perfectly clear that the state of affairs, from a practical as well as from a legal point of view, is extremely undesirable. It is indefensible that a British subject, enjoying all the liberties and privileges of a British subject should not also loyally carry out the obligations of a British subject. It is, therefore, very desirable that in a case like that of Ahlers, and in many other cases which I might mention to your Lordships, there should be power to revoke the certificate of naturalisation. I am credibly informed that the French Government are introducing a Bill for this purpose.
My second Question is to ask what are the powers in regard to high treason now possessed by the ordinary jurisdiction of the grand juries, the county constables, and so forth, and to what extent and in what particulars are these powers affected by any jurisdiction of the Home Secretary or of any Order in Council.
This is somewhat of a technical question. I put it because it is extremely difficult for us laymen to understand the present condition of things. There seems to be a sort of dual system. There are Orders in Council issued by the Home Secretary which a colleague of his in office, the Solicitor-General, considers have not the power to override and to justify anything that is illegal in itself, yet which at the same time the Judges of the Court of Criminal Appeal did consider gave this man Ahlers power to escape from a judgment which was in other respects perfectly just and equitable. I therefore ask His Majesty's Government whether they would be good enough to make a statement also in regard to this second question, so that those of us who are connected with county administration may be able to know on what lines we may proceed.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I have a Question on the Paper for tomorrow which perhaps it would be convenient for the Lord Chancellor to reply to now, as it covers the ground in the Questions put by my noble friend Lord Portsmouth. My Question is this—
To ask His Majesty's Government if they will make a statement as to the powers vested in the Home Office of cancelling the certificates of such naturalised aliens as have shown themselves hostile to this country, or whom the military and police authorities consider likely to become a source of danger; if such cancellation has been suggested to the Government by any military, police, or local authority; and, if further legislation would be required to enable the Home Office to take such action.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, this question is one of importance which has engaged the attention of the Government for some time. It is attended with difficulties, however, to which I will refer in a moment; and these difficulties have led to the matter being dealt with in a somewhat different way from what the noble Earl suggests it should be. Reference has been made to the prosecution of a man named Ahlers. I know nothing of that case except from the newspapers; I had nothing whatever to do with it. I gather that the Court of Criminal Appeal thought that the jury might have been misled on the direction the learned Judge, and on that ground plashed the conviction. As to the merits of the case, that was a matter for the Court Criminal Appeal. But I do not think that case has much bearing on the question is which is before us now, except on one point.
I am asked, first, what powers the Home Secretary possesses as regards cancellation of certificates of naturalisation, and, secondly, whether it is proposed to give him further powers. I must point out the initial difficulty which attends the whole subject—that in regard to naturalisation you are dealing with a matter which affects not only war but peace, and a matter of wide importance in International Law. What nationality a man possesses is a question of status, and when once it is conferred it is expected by other countries that the country granting it will not capriciously or arbitrarily or hastily withdraw the privileges which have been conceded, because that affects other questions. In other words, you have to consider International Law in dealing with this, because it is not a matter of licensing a person,
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nor even a matter of a contract; it is a question of the status of a person, which can only be dealt with in a very solemn manner; and the power of rendering void the status so conferred is a power which certainly ought not to be at the disposal of a Minister or of an Executive, but ought to be in the hands of a Court of Justice of a high order. The scope of legislation is of a very limited extent, limited because of those considerations to which I have referred, in considering the question of revoking certificates of naturalisation. In the Consolidation Act recently passed dealing with the question of naturalisation there is a section which expressly enables the revocation of such certificates if there has been fraud or suppression of material facts. That, of course, will not touch the point which the noble Earl has in view. It will not touch it, first of all, because the section is very limited in scope; and, secondly, because it relates to a matter which, as I have said, has to be dealt with on the footing that nationality is not a thing to be lightly changed by one country having regard to the rights of other countries.
But power was given to deal with what is material in the cases which have been put as regards this matter in another way. It is quite true that under the Aliens Restriction Order the power of requesting an alien to withdraw and not to remain in a particular part of the country, called a prohibited area, is a power which is restricted to aliens; but because of the difficulty which has arisen from the fact of aliens becoming naturalised, and for other reasons, powers have been taken of a much wider order under the Defence of the Realm Act, under which any man, whether an alien or a naturalised British subject or a British subject by birth or descent, can be called upon to comply with very stringent regulations. The case of Ahlers would not come under it, but Section 14 of the Regulations is in substance this—that where anybody, whether he is an alien or whether he is a British subject, is suspected of acting or of having acted or of being about to act in a manner prejudicial to the public safety or the defence of the Realm and it appears to the competent naval or military authority that it; is desirable that such person should be prohibited from residing in or entering any locality, the competent naval or military authority may by Order prohibit him from residing in or entering any area or

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areas which may be specified in the Order, and upon the making of such an Order the person to whom the Order relates shall, if he resides in any specified area, leave that area within such time as may be specified by the Order; and then any person with regard to whom such an Order is made may be required to report himself to the Police wherever he goes. That refers to a person who is even suspected, and it puts ample power in the hands of the naval and military authorities.
There are other powers in the Defence of the Realm Act which go very far and constitute new offences. When a naturalised person is suspected in sued a way that you would desire to deal with his certificate if you had the legal power, it is almost invariably for reasons that would be covered by the Defence of the Realm Act and the Regulations for the new class of trial made under it; and the view which has been consistently taken by the Government is that, having regard to the difficulties and restrictions which International Law imposes, the proper way of dealing with such persons is not by altering their nationality—which is the best way of putting it—but by dealing with them under the very stringent powers which now exist. The view which I have stated to your Lordships now is that which was put forward in the other House when the matter was raised some little time ago, and to that the Government have consistently adhered.
Then there is the further question put by the noble Earl who spoke first. Lord Portsmouth asks what are the powers in regard to high treason now possessed by the ordinary jurisdiction of the grand juries, the county constables, and so forth, and to what extent and in what particulars are these powers affected by any jurisdiction of the Home Secretary or of any Order in Council. The answer is that they are not affected at all. The Defence of the Realm Act and the Regulations under it preserve all other rights and powers which exist in tile law of the land; and as regards chief constables and magistrates, their capacity remains. If some one is acting in a way and under circumstances of which they are suspicious, all they have to do is to report the matter to the proper authorities. The proper persons to report it to would be the Public Prosecutor and the Attorney-General. The powers of the magistrates and the chief constables are unfettered. Further, no
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powers which grand juries had before these Acts were passed have been altered, and they are free to act as in the past.
Another suggestion has been made in the newspapers upon which the noble Earl did not touch. It has been said in certain quarters that the Home Office has to some extent interfered with the responsibility of chief constables, and it has been said, "Why should chief constables be asked to make reports when they are not appointed by the Home Office? If you are not responsible for their appointment how can you ask them to make reports? If you ask them to make reports are you not asking them to take responsibility which they are not liable to undertake?" The answer is that it is quite true that chief constables are not appointed by the Home Office, but they are and always have been ready to give valuable information to the Home Office. The chief constable directs the police and always gives any information that is required. The Home Office does not put any responsibility upon a chief constable by asking him for a report; it merely applies to him as the natural person to give such information as to suspicious circumstances coming under his notice, and then the proper prosecuting authority takes action. I simply mention that in order to clear up some obscurity which has arisen on the point.
The noble Earl, Lord Crawford, asks whether His Majesty's Government will make a statement as to the powers vested in the Home Office of cancelling the certificates of such naturalised aliens as have shown themselves hostile to this country or whom the military and police authorities consider likely to become a source of danger. That, I think, has been covered.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: Yes.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: And then in his Question the noble Earl further asks whether such cancellation has been suggested to the Government by any military, police, or local authority, and whether further legislation would be required to enable the Home Office to take such action. Yes, such cancellation has been suggested. As the noble Earl, Lord Portsmouth, has said, the French Government are at the present moment considering a like point, but so far have got no further. But the matter, as far as the Government is concerned in this country, is being carefully watched.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I gathered from the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack that the chief objection he took to the power of cancelling naturalisation certificates lay in International Law. The French Government, though they may not have passed a Bill to denaturalise hostile Frenchmen, have at any rate gone so far as to show that in principle they are confirmed in the belief that cancellation is possible. I say it with humility, but I hope that His Majesty's Government are not being too fastidious about International Law in dealing with a country which shows no regard whatever for any branch of International Law or its obligations. As this whole question of aliens is one which in my opinion carries with it the seeds of life and death for this country, I would take certain risks in connection with International Law if by so doing our hands in dealing with enemy aliens could be strengthened. I want to illustrate the case of Mr. Ahlers. I do not go into the legal point, as I do not understand it. But Mr. Ahlers, like every one else who has become naturalised, has obtained the privilege by putting three or four guineas on the counter of the Home Office. He became a British subject and was thereby entitled to all the privileges and rights of a British subject. But in becoming naturalised here he has not ceased to be a German subject, for no German subject who becomes a subject of a foreign Power ceases to be a subject of Germany unless he goes through a solemn and elaborate form of denaturalisation in Germany. Not one in ten thousand of those who naturalise themselves here care to go to the trouble and expense, and to some extent the disagreeable publicity, involved by that process. Although Mr. Ahlers had been naturalised in this country he still had German sympathies—he was perfectly frank about it.
I will give another example. The daughter of a German officer who is actually fighting against us in the field went the other day in the ordinary way to a police station to register herself as an alien. They asked her where she was born, and finding that she was born in London they wrote "British" across her papers, and she is free. She is equally free in her opinions and in her statements about this country. I should like that lady to be denaturalised—I am sure she would not mind—for we should then have a larger hold upon her
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than if she remains a British subject. It is no good saying that Section 14 of the Regulations of the Defence of the Realm Act gives all the powers that are required. That section deals with residence and residence alone; no other restriction is conferred by that section. It is not a matter of where a man resides that is at issue, but whether a man who has shown himself to be hostile to this country ought to continue, not merely now but for the rest of his life, to enjoy the privileges and the amenities which are enjoyed by a British subject.
One further point. In my Question I make a suggestion which no doubt the Lord Chancellor will consider extreme. I suggest not merely that the certificate should be cancelled of those who have done hostile acts, like Mr. Ahlers, but that the police should be able to recommend persons whom they consider likely to commit acts of hostility to Great Britain to be denaturalised. I should like that power to be given. The sensitiveness of the Home Office and the readiness with which they concede to pressure are so obvious that I am sure no hardship or injustice would be committed. The Home Office is a very softhearted Department, and no aliens need fear from it any injustice; they are perfectly safe with this very sentimental Department. The Government have shown tremendous activity with the waiters and the small fry, but the really dangerous people in this country are the paymasters, not only of the aliens who are now largely interned, but also of British subjects here upon whom our enemies are going to rely at the psychological moment to create and foster an opinion in this country in favour of an inconclusive peace. The whole organisation I believe to be prepared. Money, we know, is poured out like water to produce temperamental or psychological objects; and there are people here, one knows from one's own knowledge, who desire, at what they consider to be the right moment—through literature, possibly through the Press, through the elaborate system of publicity as now organised in the United States of America, and indeed in half-a-dozen other ways which noble Lords will suggest to themselves—to exercise pressure upon public opinion. I do not think the Home Office would be in any way weakened by having the power I suggest. Legislation may be required,

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but I do not think there will be serious opposition by either House of Parliament to the conferring of this power on the Home Office.
Those of us who have dealt with this alien question from the very start, in spite of strenuous and consistent opposition from the Government, have noticed that gradually, sometimes weeks and sometimes months after our pleas, the Government which at first was stubborn at length gave way, so that there are now not many things for which we asked at the outset that have not been conceded. I put this point of mine forward to-day in the hope that careful consideration will be given to it, and that this additional power may be vested in the Home Office.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, something has just come under my notice which shows that the Government have in one matter given attention to this subject of revoking certificates of naturalisation, or at least of removing privileges from persons who have been naturalised here but not denationalised in their own country; and I hope this may be considered with reference to other matters. As your Lordships are aware, some very stringent restrictions have recently been issued by the Treasury with reference to the reopening of the Stock Exchange. It was considered that one of the principal dangers attending that reopening might be the transaction of business injurious to this country and in the interests of the enemy by persons who had been enemy subjects and were not denationalised. The rule has been laid down that no one shall be allowed at present to act as a member of or as a clerk in the Stock Exchange who is a subject of any country with which this country is at war and who has not been denationalised. That shows that His Majesty's Government, or at any rate one Department of it, has had this question under very serious consideration and has acted in the direction which my noble friend desires. I hope that the consideration of the Lord Chancellor may be carried a little further, and that it may be possible, without any interference with International Law, at least to provide that any person who has been naturalised in England and is convicted of high treason should have his certificate of naturalisation revoked and be deprived of the privileges of a British subject.

ALIEN ENEMIES.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government what was the approximate number of alien enemies resident in this country on December 1 last other than prisoners of war and persons interned in concentration camps, and what was the approximate number of aliens then residing in prohibited areas.
LORD ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, before the noble Marquess answers the Question of the noble Earl opposite, perhaps he will allow me to put my Question which stands next, as it also refers to alien enemies. I ask whether the Government can now see their way to announce that they are ready to repatriate at the cost of this country all alien enemies not of military age and all women and children of alien enemies who may be willing to return to their own countries.
I have been emboldened to put this Question on the Paper by the fact that at one of the last sittings of the House in the Autumn a Question of mine in practically similar terms was received rather kindly by the noble Marquess, who thought that there was a little to be said for it and promised that the Government would consider it. I should like now to ask what the decision of the Government has been on the subject. I might remind the House of the advantages of our offering to pay the expenses of all alien enemies, other than men of military age, who would be willing to go back to their own countries. If all of them accepted the offer it would be an untold benefit; and if only a certain number of them went it would be an advantage well worth the money, because to that extent, whatever the extent might be, it would lessen the number of very suspicious people that the police and special constables and others are at present obliged to watch all over the country. Even supposing none went, would it not be a good thing that the Government should have made this offer publicly? In the German papers there are statements that we in this country have been treating alien enemies with harshness and unkindness. Well, as an answer to those German newspapers and in order to impress the minds of people in neutral countries surely there is nothing better than that we should say that, far from wanting to be harsh to any one, we are prepared not only to let them go without any conditions, but also to pay the expenses back to their own land. Personally, I cannot see any single disadvantage in the

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Government adopting this course, and I should like to ask what their decision is now that they have considered the matter.
VISCOUNT ALLENDALE: My Lords, I hope my noble friend Lord St. Davids will excuse me if I say that I do not quite sue how his Question, though a very interesting one no doubt, arises on the Question of the noble Earl, Lord Crawford. I propose to answer Lord Crawford's Question, and my noble friend who leads the House will deal with the one put by toy noble friend Lord St. Davids. The noble Earl opposite asks for a statement of the figures as at December 1 last, but perhaps he will allow me to give him the latest available figures and thus bring the matter more up to date.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Up to what date are the figures? The first of January?
VISCOUNT ALLENDALE: I cannot say exactly the date, but I believe it is up to the first of January—at least it is as near that as possible. The number of male Germans, Austrians, and Hungarians at large in this country is about 27,000; and the number interned or imprisoned, about 15,000. The numbers interned would be greater but for the policy of the War Office, which has resulted in the release of upwards of 2,000 in the last few weeks. The number of females is about 18,000.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: At large or interned?
VISCOUNT ALLENDALE: At large. Since the notice of Lord Crawford's Question has been handed in a report has been obtained so far as concerns the areas on the East and South Coasts, and that report gives the total number of male alien enemies in prohibited areas as 695. This figure is worked out as follows: In the prohibited areas from the North of Scotland to Berwick, 59; from Northumberland to the Wash, 437; from the Wash to the Thames, 38; from the Thames to Cornwall, 161. The figures with regard to females are—From the North of Scotland to Berwick, 315; Northumberland to the Wash, 982; front the Wash to the Thames, 214; and from the Thames to Cornwall, 791. This makes a total of 2,302 females.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: The noble Viscount is quoting the figures of aliens in prohibited areas?
VISCOUNT ALLENDALE: Yes, this last batch which I am giving.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: Why are they allowed to be there at all?
VISCOUNT ALLENDALE: The chief constables on the spot have, after full inquiry and consultation with the military authorities, discretion to say who shall be allowed to remain. The military authorities have power over and above that, under the Defence of the Realm Act, to order the removal of suspicious persons and those whose presence is considered undesirable. I understand that the persons who have been allowed to remain are those who, after very careful inquiry by the authorities, are considered to be quite harmless. They have been allowed to remain with the consent of the military authorities.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: Is it quite certain that the military authorities do not mind these people being there? Certainly there are military authorities in Scotland, at any rate, who are moving heaven and earth to get rid of aliens, as such; yet all down the coast of Scotland there are still aliens. I asked this question six or eight weeks ago, and I find that in the interval of time the number of alien males within prohibited areas has shown very small decrease indeed, and to-day there are actually 3,500 alien enemies living within prohibited areas. Again, the prohibited areas which the noble Viscount specified by no means exhaust all the prohibited areas in the country; so that the figure which he has given us is quite incomplete. No mention was made by him of the several prohibited areas in Ireland and on the West Coast.
To-day, after five months of war, there are 3,500 aliens living within prohibited areas! I consider that women alien enemies, of whom there are 2,302, are every bit as dangerous as male alien enemies. The idea that you should leave the women in a prohibited area and exclude the men is farcical. I have heard these figures from the noble Viscount with great disappointment. I had hoped that after an interval of six weeks there would have been sonic improvement, but there has been a perfectly insignificant change. However, I hope that since the raid on the East Coast the number of aliens in that particular area at any rate have been materially reduced.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH: It seems to me that the matter is in extreme confusion. Here you have an Act for the Defence of the Realm which confers certain powers on certain authorities under certain conditions to deal summarily with persons who are suspected of treasonable designs. At the same time you prohibit certain areas, but I have just heard from the noble Viscount opposite that in these prohibited areas there are still a very large number of aliens. Why should you have any alien enemies in a prohibited area at all? What is the object of having a prohibited area if alien enemies are not all cleared out?
THE EARL OF MEATH: My Lords, it appears to me that Parliament has expressed an opinion in one direction and the officials have altered it in another. Of course, His Majesty's Government have, so long as Parliament permits it, the power to do as they like, but it certainly does appear to me—and I am sure to many of your Lordships—a most extraordinary thing, that we should legislate in one direction and that the legislation should be undone, as it were, in another direction. If we prohibit areas, why are aliens to be permitted to remain there because certain chief constables think those people are harmless? Are we to be governed by the chief constables or by Parliament? Parliament has expressed a wish in one direction; the officials, apparently supported by the Government, think the other way. As a humble member of this House I protest against alien enemies being allowed to remain in areas which have been prohibited by Parliament.
LORD ST. DAVIDS: There was one point in the answer of the noble Viscount on the Front Bench winch I did not quite understand. I should like to ask whether the figures which he gave of alien enemies in this country and of alien enemies still living in the prohibited areas include naturalised aliens or not.
VISCOUNT ALLENDALE: No, they do not. With regard to what has been said by noble Lords opposite, I can only repeat that my information is that these people have been allowed to remain in certain areas only after very careful consultation between the military authorities and the police and after exhaustive inquiries have been made in regard to them.
LORD MONCREIFF: May I ask how exhaustive these inquiries are and when they are made? After the raid on the East Coast, very curiously, forty aliens were within the next day expelled from Hartlepool. It seems to me that it took a very long time to find out that they were not desirable people to have there.
LORD NUNBURNHOLME: My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Marquess who leads the House to put into force stronger orders under the Defence of the Realm Act. Exactly twenty-four hours before the bombardment of Scarborough a German lady whom the police had placed under observation left the town. That looks rather curious, and as if she knew all about it. I might add that she has never been seen since. There are on the East Coast of Yorkshire in the prohibited areas a good many naturalised Englishmen and aliens, and many of the people in my county, in the towns on the coast., think that the time has come to clear out all these people en masse. We do not see why we should take any risks considering the state of war we are in. Many of these aliens and naturalised Englishmen may have resided in this country for many years and may be perfectly respectable people, but the general view is that no risks should be taken and that they should be either deported or interned.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I think the conduct of the Government in this matter of spies is incomprehensible. Surely the whole point is that which has been made by the noble Lord who has just sat down—Why should we take any risks at all? It is not a question whether this or that naturalised person or alien satisfies the police inquiry; he or she may be a perfectly harmless individual, but we cannot afford to take any risks at all. That is why I say that the conduct of the Government in this matter is incomprehensible. Every time this subject is brought forward we are told that the naval and military authorities are satisfied, but if any of us speak to any of the naval or military authorities who have jurisdiction on the coast they never by any possible chance express themselves as satisfied. The criticism I would make is this. What we are suffering from is divided authority. Surely this matter of the spy ought to be put in the hands of one single man, and he

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should be responsible to the whole country for our safety in that respect. So long as the authority is divided—partly civilian, partly naval, and partly military—I do not believe you will ever be able to run home responsibility or make quite sure that the matter is being wisely dealt with. I am no advocate for hounding harmless aliens; personally I would treat them with every consideration; but I do say that on our coasts and where the Government themselves have established prohibited areas it is not a question of humanity between us and them but a question of trusteeship, and we cannot afford to run any risk. That is why I ask the Government to look at this matter from rather a different point of view—to look at it exclusively from the point of view of the safety of our seamen and our coastal defence and to put the whole and sole responsibility, under the ample powers which I believe they now possess, in the hands of one man selected by them and thoroughly trusted.
VISCOUNT GALWAY*VISCOUNT GALWAY had given notice to call attention to the recent bombardment of towns on the East Coast. The noble Viscount said: As the main point to which I wished to call the attention of your Lordships' House in my Question with reference to the present state of the East Coast after the recent bombardment was this matter of aliens residing in prohibited areas, perhaps your Lordships will allow me to say that there is a general feeling of insecurity on the whole of the Yorkshire coast since the bombardment owing to aliens being still left there. It is a matter of common knowledge that signalling has been going on for some months, and also that intelligence has been given to the enemy somehow or other; and there is a fear that His Majesty's Government do not quite realise how strong the feeling of in-security is. I hold that it is the duty of the Government to see that all doubts about responsibility are removed. Also I must frankly say that a great many people up North have some doubt as to whether His Majesty's Government are really as determined as they might be to enforce their powers against alien enemies in this time of war. Perhaps the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack not mind my saying that his well known admiration for Teutonic kultur does not tend to re-assure them, and they think that such strict steps are not taken against aliens as ought to be taken.
This feeling of insecurity to which I have alluded comes from the different orders given by the Home Secretary, and, if I may say so, his vacillation. There is no doubt about it that there must be some supreme power behind the military authority or the chief constable when people are arrested one day and released the next. And from what I gather in the newspapers to-day the removal of several aliens from the coast which was supposed to have been done within a week has now been suspended. That looks as if there is interference, either from the Home Office or somewhere else in London, with the local people. I fear the Government wish to have the power to make a scapegoat of someone, on the ground that authority had been given to intern these men but that they had not been interned. The Government should see to it that no alien is allowed to reside in prohibited areas after the notice of the prohibited areas had been given. If it is said that such a course would cause these "poor aliens" inconvenience, I myself hold that the life of one of our gallant sailors is worth more than any amount of inconvenience caused to any alien enemies who ever resided in this country. I hope that your Lordships' House will support the view I take that no question should be thrown on the local or the military authorities. Let an Order go forth from the Home Office to say that no alien, whether naturalised or not, shall reside within a certain distance of the coast. It ought to be a general order for the whole of England, and not for particular portions. We should then know where we are, and it would do away with spying. If this were done it would give great satisfaction. As has been said before, these aliens, whether naturalised or not, boldly declare that they do not lose their individual nationality. Under those circumstances I trust that the Government will issue an Order that no further aliens should be allowed to reside on the coast. There were one or two other questions which I was going to put. One was with regard to the compensation to be paid to the people who suffered from the recent bombardment; the other was with regard to the removal of the civil population in case of an invasion. Those points are met by Questions which have been put down in the names of Lord Southwark and the Duke of Rutland for to-morrow, and I do not propose to raise them now.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I think it would be convenient if I said something now upon what has fallen from my noble friend opposite, and with regard to the Question of my noble friend behind me (Lord St. Davids), and the points raised by the noble Earls opposite, Lord Crawford and Lord Portsmouth. The noble Earl on the Front Bench opposite (Lord Selborne) asked that the whole matter should be placed on a different footing—that instead, as is now the case, of the military and naval authorities having the responsibility under the Defence of the Realm Act and utilising for purposes of local inquiry, and where necessary for local action, the police force of the neighbourhood, the whole business should be placed under one man who would be, as I understand, supreme in the matter. But the noble Earl did not point out what the qualification or the nature of that one man should be. Presumably he would be an official in London. In that case, unless you go on the principle of interning all enemies of all ages and both sexes, which could be done without the appointment of any special official, your single official must act through some local source of information. It would be conceivable, of course, that the whole business should be undertaken by naval or military authorities under what is vaguely called Martial, Law—that is to say, that a file of soldiers, or some bluejackets, could march into any one's house and remove the alien therefrom without question. The other alternative, the one which we have adopted, is to use the local police in the different counties as possessing more intimate knowledge of the circumstances, though acting at the instance and under the authority of the military and naval authorities respectively.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I will tell the noble Marquess exactly what was in my mind. I mean a man like Major-General Baden-Powell—that kind of man. I do not necessarily say him, but he happens to be unemployed at the moment; therefore I mention him. Take such a man. You give him civil, military, and naval advisers on his staff and put the whole of the police, for this single purpose, under his authority, and he is free to move. I would not for a moment suggest that he should remain in London; as a matter of fact, he ought to travel about a great deal. But you should have one single man responsible for this particular task, and all the authorities, civilian, naval, and military, should have instructions to act under him.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I confess I am not quite clear as to how a scheme of that kind would work; nor do I feel certain that its results would be altogether more palatable to noble Lords opposite than those which obtain at present. If you are going to inquire into the merits of particular cases at all, if you are not going to make a generally clean sweep of all aliens—I will come to the question of the particular prohibited areas in a moment—some inquiry must be made into particular cases, and it is almost certain that the result would be that in some cases exceptions would be made. On a former occasion when this matter was under discussion here I pointed out a fact which I think has not been alluded to by any subsequent speaker and certainly has not received any contradiction, and it is rather a curious point. It is this, that even those who are most anxious to see drastic measures taken with regard, as they say, to all aliens, have two or three among their personal acquaintances—it may be an elderly German governess, or an Austrian biologist who has lived all his life in this country—
VISCOUNT GALWAY: Or a Privy Councillor.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: Or it may be a person of any class or of any politics. You find that everybody knows a certain number of individuals that he himself would except; and, as I pointed out when I was mentioning this matter before, in another place an hon. Member who made a very strong speech on the subject mentioned that he knew half-a-dozen who certainly ought to be excepted because they were beyond any sort of suspicion. And, as I pointed out the other day, if you multiply that small number by the number of those who possess harmless friends you soon reach the figure of hundreds or thousands on behalf of whom it is desired that an exception should be made.
The noble Viscount who spoke last, Lord Galway, brought a charge against the Home Office that there had been some vacillation in their action, and that whereas it had first been ordained that all aliens should be removed from prohibited areas, that ordinance was afterwards withdrawn in obedience, as the noble Viscount thought, to instructions from London. I am given to understand that this is not quite an accurate account

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of what occurred. The particular Orders were issued, as all those Orders are, by the military authorities on the North-East Coast. They required that not only all aliens should be removed a certain distance from the coast but also all persons of foreign origin, even though they were British subjects. The result was a vast deal of local complaint. It must not be supposed—and I think this is a point worth noticing—that the objections to summary action of this kind were appeals ad misericordiam from the people themselves. In most cases, I am given to understand, they were appeals from their employers, British subjects such as ourselves, who cannot do without the particular services rendered by these individuals, possibly skilled in certain branches of manufacture or of knowledge; and among those employers you have to include the country, because there are certain processes of the utmost importance to us all at this moment connected with keeping up various supplies which as matters now stand can only he carried out to the full extent required by the exigencies of the situation by the utilisation of the knowledge of people, in some cases of foreign birth, naturalised in some cases before the war, perhaps for many years, and against whom as individuals no suspicion is entertained by those best qualified to judge.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: I suppose that does not apply to foreign servants in Government Departments?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I should think that that applies to all persons employed in different processes of manufacture—the manufacture of goods for the use of the Government in a great many parts of England and in a great many different departments. In other matters we are always told that we ought to trust the knowledge and experience of the men on the spot, and, if you are not prepared to make an absolutely sweeping removal of everybody, the local police authorities are presumably better acquainted with the past, with the character, and with the probable actions of any one individual included in this category than anybody else can be.
Then, as I was saying, the noble Viscount (Lord Galway) accuses the Government of vacillation. He particularly mentioned the Home Office; but, as a matter of fact, both the promulgation of the general removal
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and its subsequent withdrawal were the work of the military authorities. The Home Office had no concern with it whatever; and the step was taken on the ground, I fancy, of the sort of hardship that I have mentioned. It was also, I believe, alleged, but I do not know with what foundation, that an Order of that kind was in itself ultra vires. I lay no stress on that, because I am not sufficiently acquainted with the arguments that were used. But I can assure noble Lords opposite that as the result of what they have stated we shall give further consideration to the definite demand which they have made—namely, that all prohibited areas should be swept clear of all people of alien birth, whatever their position, character, or usefulness. I am unable, however, to say that the result will be such as noble Lords hope, because a great number of considerations are involved. Although we entirely agree with what fell from the noble Viscount, that the safety of any of the defenders of the country absolutely weighs clown all considerations of the convenience of individuals or even of national profit—I would put it as high as that—yet at the same time noble Lords must see, I think, that there are two sides of the question when you come to so sweeping an action as that.
I pass to the question of the repatriation of aliens asked by my noble friend behind me (Lord St. Davids). So long ago as October last the various Governments concerned began to discuss the question of the repatriation of all male enemies not of military age and all women and children of aliens who were willing to return to their own country. The result was that when Germany and Austria agreed to extend reciprocal treatment to British subjects in those countries, we agreed to allow the return to Germany and Austria of all women and children and of all male persons either above or below the age of service. The arrangement with Austria was announced on October 10, and that with Germany early in November. Others were also included—ministers of religion, doctors, and, in the case of Austria, invalid people even though of military age. The Germans made a reservation in the case of officers or retired officers; and everybody made a reservation in the case of persons suspected of any form of espionage or definitely suspected on any other grounds, but that includes a comparatively small number in all the countries concerned. What has

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happened is that a very large number have been unwilling to go; and the House, I think, will see that in the absence of compulsion—which has not been suggested by my noble friend, although from something he said I rather gathered he would not altogether object to it—it is clear that just those of whom we should be most glad to be rid, the sinister class of persons mentioned by Lord Crawford, who are presumably well-to-do, are not in the least likely to go even though their ticket was offered them either to Germany or Austria. But, as a matter of fact, a large number have gone. The number of women and of children under 14 who have gone is between 6,000 and 7,000, and the number of males over 14 is about 2,300.
My noble friend suggests that an offer should be made to pay the cost of repatriation. So far as indigent people are concerned, it appears to be scarcely necessary to make any offer of that kind, because the American Embassy has had placed at its disposal funds, both by the Austrian and German Governments, for the repatriation of indigent subjects of those two countries; and, similarly, we have placed a fund at the disposal of the American Ambassadors for the repatriation of British subjects from Austria and Germany who cannot afford to come home themselves. The American Embassy between September 1 and the end of December repatriated 1,137 destitute German subjects, and 328 applications for free tickets to Austria-Hungary have been granted—that meaning a larger number than the number of tickets, because it includes tickets issued for whole families. I think my noble friend will perhaps be disposed to agree that in the circumstances a general offer to defray the expenses of those who wish to return would not have a very wide or a very useful effect. As I have tried to point out, it would not have the effect of getting rid of the sort of people mentioned by Lord Crawford, the people who desire to remain here for their own purposes; and the number of those who are not indigent but would be tempted by the mere cost of the railway ticket to go would, I think, be quite small. Therefore it is not proposed on behalf of the Government to make a general offer of that kind, although so far as the indigents are concerned there is no reason to suppose that any one who desires to go is prevented by want of means from making the journey.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: My Lords, on the subject of resident aliens it would be clearly undesirable at this hour to continue the debate, and I would only like to make two observations with regard to what has fallen from the noble Marquess the Leader of the House. He spoke about trusting to the view and the authority of the men on the spot, and by the men on the spot he appeared to indicate in the main the police. But unfortunately in many areas there is not complete agreement in the view of the men on the spot. Take the case which was mentioned by the noble Viscount behind me. After the bombardment took place on the East Coast the other day the police authorities of Sunderland removed a large number of resident aliens from the coastal area to the interior, but the action of the local police, who are the local men to be trusted, according to the noble Marquess, was over-ruled by the military authorities, and they were brought back. Therefore you do not get that absolute co-ordination of authority which he postulates.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: The noble Earl understands that the police have to take their instructions from the military or naval authorities.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: Yes. The noble Marquess concluded by saying that he and his colleagues would consider the matter before we meet again. It is perfectly certain that this question will be raised again in this House of Parliament and also in the other. The noble Marquess made an ingenious speech, giving us the plausible reasons that are advanced by people for the particular treatment of their friends in particular places. No such considerations, it appears to us, ought to prevail in view of a great national emergency. I often think, when I hear Ministers make these defences, that they hardly realise the depth and the seriousness of the impression that exists about these matters in the country. You have only to look at what takes place in this House; it is a reflection of that attitude. There are not more than thirty or forty noble Lords in the House at present, but from both sides the strongest possible appeals and protests have been made to His Majesty's Government. That common feeling between the two sides here is reflected outside. It exists everywhere in the country, and whatever may be the

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decision of His Majesty's Government—the noble Marquess did not hold out to us a very favourable prospect—he may be certain that when Parliament reassembles in February the matter will be raised again here, and it will certainly be raised again in the other Reuse of Parliament; and whether a total removal of aliens from the prohibited areas is possible or not, you may be certain that we shall not rest until we get the matter put upon a much safer and sounder footing than it is at the present time.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: I will not detain your Lordships many moments, but I should like to say how much I approve of the proposal made by Lord St. Davids. It seems to me a thoroughly sound, common sense, businesslike proposal. I do not think the Leader of the House quite met the noble Lord's point. The noble Marquess said the offer had been made to these people to be sent home. If it has been made, it has never been published. Individuals amongst the people may have told the individual alien, "Now, if you want to he sent home, the Government will do it"; but that is a very different thing, and would convey a different impression to the mind of the alien, from a definite statement made in Parliament that the British Government is prepared, as I gather, to send any alien home. At the end of his speech although at the beginning he said the offer had been made, the noble Marquess said that no general offer should be made. There I differ. The noble Marquess agrees the offer should be made in specific and particular cases, yet he objects to doing it in a collective and public manner. The advantage of doing it in a collective and public manner would be that every alien would know that the offer is open. I doubt whether fifty per cent. have heard yet of the offer. In the
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second place, an offer made by a great Minister of State would go all over the world. It would show that we had none of those feelings of acerbity, as illustrated by harsh treatment, alleged against us in Germany. Those who did not wish to avail themselves of the offer, as Lord St. Davids has said, would show that they did not object to remaining in this country. Those who did go I am sure would be a good riddance. As the noble Earl has said, we shall repeat this question; and I hope that the Government, who appear to be sympathetic, will give the official status to their offer which attaches to a statement emanating from a Minister. I do not think there is reciprocity from Germany in this matter. I myself do not mind that. I would get rid of these people who want to go, whatever the measure of reciprocity might be.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I cannot tell the noble Earl what the number of English people is who have come from Austria and Germany, but a great number have come, and their expenses have been paid by the Government.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: A great many aliens who are here will not go back. The noble Marquess himself knows the great, powerful, alien enemy influence there is in this country, and even at the expense of Government funds those men will not go back. It is the ordinary German or Austrian citizens who, if guaranteed a through passage home, would many of them go. If you repatriated the whole of the aliens at large in this country, it would not cost more than one and a-half hours of the present cost of the war.
House adjourned at ten minutes before Eight o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.