Lords Sitting of 10 February 1915

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Skegness Urban District Gas.
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

BEAMISH'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Second Reading (which stands appointed for Tuesday next) put off to Tuesday the 2nd of March next.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 23) BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Select Committee to meet on Wednesday next, at a quarter before Four o'clock: Leave given to the Select Committee to report from time to time.

ALIEN ENEMIES.
VISCOUNT GALWAY: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government under what authority have the Police made inquiries of employers whether they would be prepared again to employ certain alien enemies; and to move for a Return of the number of alien enemies, not including prisoners of war, who were still interned on November 1, 1914, and the numbers released during the months of November, December, and January respectively. Your Lordships will remember that on Wednesday last, when I initiated a debate on the subject of alien enemies, I was asked by the noble Lord the President of the Board of Agriculture to postpone this question. I am glad that he made this request, because matters have so developed since that the case which I then endeavoured to make out has been strengthened. On the last occasion the noble Lord, in his reply, went elaborately into the various duties of the War Office and the Home Office, and there
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is no question that his explanation pointed to dual control, and, as my noble friend Lord Crawford submitted, dual responsibility.
Since I raised the subject last week the Home Secretary, in reply to various Questions in another place, has taken the line that the matter has been much exaggerated, and he stated that only three waiters had gone back to employment in London. I did not refer to the question of waiters only, nor did I confine my remarks to London; but if the number is only three, it is three too many. And if there were not more than three, I do not think the credit is due to the Home Secretary but to those patriotic employers who refused to take the aliens back into their service. It may be, of course, that some of these employers realised that there exists such a thing as a patriotic public; and I sincerely hope that the patriotic public will refuse to patronise establishments at which alien enemies have been taken back. I noticed the other day in the Daily Mail a letter written from the Isle of Man by an interned alien enemy to the manager of the Welbeck Palace Hotel, London, asking to be taken back. The letter contained this remarkable sentence—
"I can get released immediately I can satisfy the authorities that I have secured employment."
That statement has not been contradicted, so there seems to be some foundation for it.
It is to my mind extraordinary that the Government should go out of their way to announce that they will release at once alien enemies who can get work, because the re-employment of these men at the present moment must mean the displacement of British labour. There is further confirmation of this practice in a letter, also dated from the Aliens' Camp at Douglas, Isle of Man, which has been placed in my hand. It is directed to the manager of an hotel belonging to one of our large railway companies. It runs—
"Sir,—According to the new Regulations of the Home Office I have the opportunity to be released if I am able to prove that I have a position to go into and can earn my living. If you are kind enough to re-instate me in your hotel, please send me a confirmatory letter to that effect and I will then be able to take the necessary steps."
I ask His Majesty's Government why there is this great anxiety to find employment

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for alien enemies. I should like to know whether the Government are equally prepared to say that when the war is over they will take care that all alien enemies are deported and that their places are offered to our gallant soldiers when they come back from the front. If there is to be anxiety in obtaining employment for people it seems to me that the proper persons who should have first claim are our British people.
Then I come to the question, Under what authority have the Police made inquiries of employers whether they would be prepared again to employ certain alien enemies? I see that it was carefully stated by the Home Secretary and also by the Prime Minister that the Home Office was acting under the War Office, but I have had placed in my hand particulars of the interrogations that were put to the heads of the Police all over England. The first question was, Is this man suspected of espionage, or otherwise dangerous? The second was, Is he likely to be able, if released, to support himself outside the prohibited area? When a police official receives inquiries of that kind, how is he to ascertain whether the alien can support himself except by going to his late employer? And if his late employer is the owner of an hotel, a restaurant, or a place of entertainment, is it not putting pressure upon him when this question is asked by the Police? Is it not a strong hint that the alien should be taken back, the employer thus keeping on good terms with the Police? In the circumstances I think it has required great courage to say No, and I honour all those employers who have answered in the negative. I shall be curious to find out the opinion of working men all over the country when they become aware of the great anxiety displayed by His Majesty's Government to procure the re-employment of alien enemies. In addition to this notice to the Police there is the fact that the aliens in the concentration camps recognise that the Home Office is prepared to release them if they can get employment. So that some responsibility must rest on the Home Office.
It is all very well for the Government to say that the absolute responsibility for release rests upon the War Office, but the War Office can act only on the responsible evidence given to them through the Home Office. Surely it is time that something was done to define administrative responsibility
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in this matter, instead of its being evaded by reference from one Office to the other. A large portion of this country is what is called "prohibited areas." Why should it not be at once settled that alien enemies are not to reside in the prohibited areas? Personally I do not see the use of calling certain areas "prohibited" when, according to the statement of the Home Secretary himself, there are at the present moment 695 alien enemies residing in them. Would it not be very much simpler to exclude all alien enemies from the prohibited areas? After the experience we have had of submarines in the Irish Channel I suggest that it would be wise to extend the prohibited areas to, and exclude all alien enemies from, the whole of the West Coast of Scotland, where there are plenty of places at which German submarines could obtain petrol. And one individual should be made answerable for the return of enemy aliens to other parts of England. This would do away with a great deal of the dual responsibility which we all now regret to see.
With regard to the Return for which ask, I have worded the Motion somewhat differently from the form in which it appeared on the Paper on Wednesday last. And for this reason. Lord Lucas then informed me that the number of alien enemies released between November 27, 1914, and January 1 this year was 1,916. In the other House the Home Secretary gave that figure as the number released during the two months from November 27 to February 1 this year. Obviously there is a discrepancy, and therefore I thought it would be simpler if we were informed as to the numbers released during November, December, and January respectively.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty for a Return of the number of alien enemies, not including prisoners of war, who were still interned on 1st November, 1914, and the numbers released a during the months of November, December, and January respectively.—(Viscount Galway.)
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD LUCAS): My Lords, I must apologise to the noble Viscount and to the House for the mistake which I made last week in giving the figures in answer to his Question. The mistake was due to a typing error in the document with which I was supplied.

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The numbers which I gave were up to February 1, and not up to January 1, as I stated. Therefore the figures subsequently given by the Home Secretary in the House of Commons and referred to by the noble Viscount were correct. In reply to the Questions asked to-day by the noble Viscount, I have to state that the number of alien enemies released during November, 1914, was 850; the number released during December, 1,113; and the number released in January this year, 717—making a total of 2,680.
VISCOUNT GALWAY: Can the noble Lord state how many alien enemies were interned on November 1?
LORD LUCAS: The total number interned at that date was 17,283. The noble Viscount said that he had read a statement made by the Home Secretary in the House of Commons to the effect that the Police had not taken the steps which it was alleged they had taken in trying to obtain employment for released aliens. The Police have never been employed in doing that. To explain what I dare say has given rise to the suggestion, I will state exactly what the policy of the War Office is in regard to the release of interned aliens. The War Office decided that if it could be clearly shown that an alien who had been interned was not suspicious or in any way dangerous, it should be possible to release him, provided that he did not after his release become destitute and a charge upon the country. It was held very strongly by the War Office that a large body of destitute aliens might become a danger to law and order, and that at any rate it would be very undesirable to have them in the country at the present time. They therefore decided to lay down two conditions before an interned alien was released—namely, that it should be proved to their satisfaction, first, that the alien in question was not in any way a dangerous person, and, secondly, that he was not likely to become destitute; in other words, that he should be able to satisfy them that on his release he was able to obtain employment. The aliens were in a great many cases asked to state whether or not, if released, they could obtain employment, and those statements have been checked in a great many cases on behalf of the War Office by the Police in order to ascertain whether they were accurate. In the cases where the statement made by the alien to the effect
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that he could obtain employment has proved to be correct, the man has been released; and it was simply for the purpose of ascertaining the accuracy of the aliens' statements that such inquiries as have been carried out by the Police were made.
The noble Viscount expressed the opinion that the fact that an alien after his release was able to obtain employment meant depriving some Englishman of work. As far as we have been able to discover, that has not proved to be the case. He also suggested that the positions held by the aliens who are at present interned in this country should be kept open for British soldiers on their return at the end of the war. That, of course, is a question of policy on which I cannot give an answer now; but in my opinion a very large number, I should think the greater proportion, of the positions that were held by enemy aliens are not jobs which returned soldiers would thank anybody for, if offered to them.
I now come to the point of alien enemies still inhabiting prohibited areas. Aliens in these districts are dealt with by the military authorities, and there are the same arrangements in the prohibited areas as obtain for the general treatment of alien enemies as a whole. The Military Commander of the District is the authority who decides as to how the aliens in his district shall be treated. The services of the Police are placed at his disposal, should he want them, for making the necessary inquiries as to whether particular aliens are dangerous, and on the information collected for him by the Police he is in a position to decide whether or not the aliens should be removed from the area over which he has command. That is the position at the present moment. Just as over the general question the War Office is the authority which decides, so in each one of the prohibited areas it is for the General Officer Commanding the District to say whether he does or does not wish to have aliens removed from his district.
LORD NEWTON: Would the noble Lord state whether there is any objection to publishing in this Return the number of military and naval prisoners now interned in this country? I make this suggestion because the figures have been published in Germany, in Russia, and, I think, in Austria, and I have never been able to see why no such steps have been taken here.
LORD LUCAS: I do not think that any country has published the total number of prisoners of war actually taken.
LORD NEWTON: The Germans have.
LORD LUCAS: If I remember right, they include among them men of military age whom they have taken prisoners in the occupied districts. I will, however, place the noble Lord's request before the Secretary of State for War. I should not like to answer it definitely now.
*VISCOUNT BRYCE: My Lords, I should like to be allowed to supplement what has been said from the Government Bench with regard to these aliens, as I happen to have received some information regarding them and to know something about the conditions of the case. We are all, of course, agreed that every possible strictness should be observed with regard to any one who can be a danger to the country. There is no difference of opinion anywhere as to the need for the utmost stringency in laying hold of and putting out of the power of doing mischief anybody who is reasonably suspected. But, on the other hand, I am sure we are all equally agreed that we do not want to inflict unnecessary suffering on people who are innocent, and it does so happen that a large number of those who have been interned as enemy aliens have lived in this country for a long time, have married English wives, have been doing useful work, and have earned the respect of their neighbours. We may, perhaps, take some credit to ourselves that so large a proportion of those who come to us from other countries greatly prefer our life and our institutions to their own, and have become practically English. I know a good number of cases of that kind, of people brought over here perhaps at the age of four or five years, who have become for all practical purposes English but who have never become naturalised. They are entirely in sympathy with us in this war. I have also heard of cases in which the children of persons who are technically alien enemies are serving in His Majesty's Army. Many of these people have done their best to get their children to fight for us, and yet at the same time they find themselves huddled into a concentration camp. In these circumstances it does not seem unreasonable that the War Office should have considered in a spirit of humanity that it is not necessary to keep in detention per-
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sons against whom there is no shadow of suspicion whatever. Therefore I think, if one bears the facts in mind, it will not appear unwise that the number which the noble Lord has mentioned should have been released within the past three months. I have reason to know that the distinguished General who is at the head of this department of War Office work is taking the greatest pains in the matter, and I believe that those who are acting with him are doing everything possible to secure, on the one hand, that no one is confined against whom no kind of suspicion exists, and, on the other hand, that every one against whom there is any real ground of suspicion should be detained.
Then there is the case—it is a very difficult one—of those aliens who, if released, are without any visible means of subsistence. In many cases they kept a shop or were engaged in some trade, and, of course, by their being thrown into these camps the business of their shop has gone or they have lost their employment. They have no chance of getting work for themselves, and in many cases, as has been observed, their former employers have refused to take them back. If this is a difficulty which the Government feel, one would have thought that it might be worth while to try and get local committees of responsible and charitable citizens formed in the large towns where a considerable number of these aliens have resided, and ask the committees to obtain information which would be satisfactory regarding the character of the aliens, to give security for their good behaviour if any question of that kind should arise, and to try and make some provision for them if released. I have reason to believe that there are plenty of charitable people in our cities who would be willing to undertake work of this kind, and it would facilitate the labours of the War Office if they were recognised in that capacity. It would, of course, be necessary that the War Office or the local Military Commander should be satisfied that such committees were composed of the right kind of persons, but I do not think that any difficulty would be experienced in that direction.
Another point occurs to one which seems to have been rather forgotten in some of the newspaper discussions—namely, that the really dangerous spy is not always the alien enemy. It is not the man with a German accent, a German name, and a blonde

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beard who is the most dangerous spy. It is the man who poses as an Englishman or as a citizen of some neutral country and who is undiscoverable by external signs to be anything but an Englishman—perhaps who is an Englishman!—who is the most dangerous. I venture to express the hope, therefore, that there will not be anywhere a disposition to rest satisfied with fixing attention upon people with German names and of German nationality, but that those who are responsible shall keep an even stricter lookout on persons posing as Englishmen or as natives of neutral countries who may be really endeavouring to compass our destruction.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

SIR JOHN FRENCH'S DESPATCHES.
THE EARL OF DERBY: May I ask the noble Lord who represents the War Office whether he can tell us when we may expect the publication of Sir John French's Despatches? It is common knowledge that they have been for some considerable time in this country, and I do not think the delay in publishing them is quite understood. I should also like to know whether there is to be an Honours List published simultaneously with the Despatches.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (EARL BEAUCHAMP): The noble Earl will be the first to realise that, not having had notice of this Question, I am unable to commit my noble and gallant friend the Secretary of State for War by giving an answer. I understand, however, that there is reason to believe that a Despatch will very soon be published. Beyond that I am afraid I cannot give the noble Earl any assurance.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, there is no business down for to-morrow, so that if it is your Lordships' wish the House might adjourn, except for Judicial business, until Tuesday next, the first day on which there is any business on the Paper. I move accordingly.
Moved, That the House do adjourn, except for Judicial business, until Tuesday, February 16.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow half-past Ten o'clock.