Lords Sitting of 9 February 1915

Preamble
ABERDARE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL (TRAMWAYS, &c.) BILL. [H.L.]
ASHINGTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
DEAF AND DUMB POOR ASYLUM BILL. [H.L.]
EASTERN VALLEYS (MONMOUTHSHIRE) JOINT SEWERAGE BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
HALIFAX CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
PLYMOUTH CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
ROTHERHAM CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
SALOP COUNTY COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
SHEFFIELD CORPORATION (TRAMWAYS) BILL.[H.L.]
SOUTH SHIELDS CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
SUNDERLAND CORPORATION(WEAR-MOUTH BRIDGE) BILL. [H.L.]
WOLVERHAMPTON CORPORATION WATER BILL,[H.L.]
Presented, and read 1a.
ALTRINCHAM GAS BILL,[H.L.]
BRIGHTON AND HOVE GAS BILL. [H.L.]
BRISTOL TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
FALMOUTH DOCKS BILL. [H.L.]
FRIMLEY AND FARNBOROUGH DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
ILFRACOMBE GAS BILL. [H.L.]
MERSEY RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
NEATH CANAL NAVIGATION BILL.[H.L.]
NORTHWICH GAS BILL,[H.L.]
ORMSKIRK GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
FRESCOT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
SPENNYMOOR AND TUDHOE GAS BILL. [H.L.]
SUTTON DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
WARWICK GAS BILL. [H.L.]
WEST GLOUCESTERSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
YORKSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
Presented; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 23) BILL.
To be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Strachie).
ABERDEEN CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899), deemed to have been read 2a (The Lord Emmott), and reported from the Committee. (No. 31.)

THE LATE MARQUESS OF LONDON DERRY.
*THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, I am certain that the House would not desire altogether to pass over in silence the heavy and sudden loss which the Front Bench opposite has sustained by the death of Lord Londonderry. It is now some thirty years since Lord Londonderry went to Ireland as Viceroy, and since that time he has filled various high offices under the Crown and been a prominent and energetic member of the Unionist Party. Lord Londonderry was one of those men of whom examples can be found in many Administrations, so far as our memory can carry us back, who would be the first themselves to disclaim the possession of commanding talents or the application of profound study to public affairs, but who, actuated by a sense of duty and by a feeling of the responsibility imposed on them by the position in which they were born, have devoted themselves to public life, have lived laborious days, and have deserved well of their fellow-countrymen. I think myself that all Lord Londonderry's friends would say that he never did a wiser thing than when, in the years 1895 and 1896, he undertook the chairmanship of the London School Board. There, with great industry and devotion, he obtained an invaluable apprenticeship to the high administrative offices which he was afterwards called upon to fill. In his personal capacity Lord Londonderry was intimately known to many of your Lordships' House. He was a man of the greatest personal geniality and charm, and few have left or could leave more friends behind to mourn their memory. Lord Londonderry was the representative of two great families, one English, the other Irish. In the North of England he occupied a great industrial

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position and fulfilled in that part of the country the duties belonging to such a position and all the functions appertaining to a large landowner. But I think all who knew him would agree that his heart was most of all in the country of his paternal descent, the North of Ireland, with which he was in many ways so closely associated. Of late years, as we all know, Lord Londonderry had been much mixed up with the more combative character of Irish politics. He held strong—some might even be tempted to call them violent—views on certain subjects. But I venture to think that in him there was perhaps less essential bitterness of spirit than in some politicians of more careful speech and more subdued expression than his. I believe that his experiences in the Irish Viceroyalty had, while in no way diminishing the intensity with which he held what I may describe as the Ulster view, given him a more large and generous outlook towards the other parts of Ireland than his position of Ulster leadership altogether permitted him to indicate. I am certain, my Lords, that the House, without exception, would desire to express to his family our profound condolence with the loss of their head, so distinguished and so beloved by many.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, we who sit on this Bench are very grateful to the noble Marquess for the manner in which he has spoken of our old colleague. It has become the custom of your Lordships' House when a conspicuous member of it is taken from our midst by death to say a few words of appreciation and farewell, and I think your Lordships will agree with me that those words could not have been spoken more appropriately or with kinder feeling than they have been spoken by the noble Marquess who leads the House. I venture to agree with what the noble Marquess said when he told your Lordships that there was probably no man who would have less wished that anything like an extravagant panegyric should be spoken of him. We who knew him well are aware that he himself would have been the last person to claim for himself a place in the rank of our foremost British statesmen. But for all that his friends have a right to remember at a moment like this that for between thirty and forty years Lord Londonderry served in one or other House of Parliament, and that during the whole of that long period he gave an unremitting attention to the
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duties which fell upon him. Outside the House he never shirked the responsibilities which his high station entailed or those responsibilities which the opportunities of public life from time to time brought within his reach. Lord Londonderry held high office, both political and municipal, and acquired a very considerable knowledge of our public affairs. But it was to Irish affairs and Irish affairs in all their momentous and dramatic interest, that he gave most of his attention. The cause which was nearest to his heart was the cause of the Union, and I do not think I am using exaggerated language when I say that for the sake of that cause Lord Londonderry would have risked his life or sacrificed the greater part of his worldly possessions. The keenness of his feelings naturally brought him into sharp antagonism with those from whom he differed. But although he was a keen fighter, I think it will be admitted that there never was a fairer or more honourable antagonist, and in that way it came to pass that he earned the respect both of friend and foe. We who knew him in private life knew him as a courteous English gentleman, as an admirable host, as an exemplary landlord, and, above all, as a very true and faithful friend. In and out of Parliament he will be missed by those who were his associates, and he will be remembered with no unkindly feelings by those to whom he was politically opposed. We take leave of him with regret. Upon this occasion we do not think it necessary to move any formal Resolution, but we do nevertheless offer to his family and to all who are mourning him a sympathy which is both profound and sincere.

THE IMPORTATION OF LIVE CATTLE.
*THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK*THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK rose to ask His Majesty's Government—

1. Whether, by special permission of the Board of Agriculture, Friesland cattle for breeding purposes were imported from Holland on 4th August, 1914.

2. Whether the Board of Agriculture had any communication with the Board of Trade as to the inclusion of this importation in the Trade and Navigation Accounts.

3. Why the said importation was not included in the August Accounts, and its inclusion delayed until December.

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4. Why, and upon whose authority, the said cattle were returned in the December Accounts as "Animals, living (for food)," thereby incorrectly increasing the quantity of food imported during the month, and rendering incorrect the declared value of the food imported during that month and during the year 1914.

The noble Earl said: My Lords, the Questions that I have placed on the Paper refer to a matter which is of much interest to the owners of live stock in this country. I may remind your Lordships that the Diseases of Animals Act, 1896, which amended the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, prescribed that all foreign animals should be slaughtered at the port of landing—other than, firstly, foreign animals the landing of which was for the time being prohibited by an Order of the Board of Agriculture; and, secondly, foreign animals intended for exhibition or other exceptional purpose, the landing of which was allowed for the time being by the Board of Agriculture subject to the regulations of the Board as to quarantine. Your Lordships will observe that while prohibition as to the landing of foreign animals must be enforced by an Order of the Board, the exemption of foreign animals for certain purposes from slaughter at the port of landing may be "allowed" by the Board—and I understand that to mean allowed at the discretion of the President of the Board of Agriculture for the time being.
Last year the British Holstein Cattle Society, believing that it was desirable in the interests of the breed to introduce new blood, applied to the Board of Agriculture to be allowed to import a certain number of Friesland or Holstein cattle from Holland for breeding purposes, and the Board gave special permission to the society to import sixty of these cattle. Accordingly a consignment consisting of forty bulls and twenty heifers were shipped at Harlingen, in Holland, in the steamship "Falcon," and arrived at Tilbury Docks on August 4, and in compliance with the regulations of the Board of Agriculture they were subjected to quarantine for three months. At the expiration of the period of quarantine—namely, on November 6—these cattle were sold by auction at Byfleet. Fifty-nine were catalogued in the sale, and as the number imported in August was sixty there is one animal unaccounted for. No
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information, as far as I am aware, has been publicly given as to what became of that animal. I think we are entitled to ask whether it died from an accident or was slaughtered, or whether it died from disease, and, in the latter event, what was the disease with which the animal was infected. The fifty-nine animals that were sold on November 6 realised £14,936; and as the cost price was £4,268, the transaction gave a handsome profit of over £10,000 to the British Holstein Cattle Society.
I believe I am correct in saying that never since the Diseases of Animals Act, 1896, came into force have the Board of Agriculture previously allowed so large a number of foreign cattle for breeding purposes to be imported at one time into this country. I do not wish now to raise the question as to whether or not the Board of Agriculture were right in interpreting the words allowing the landing of "foreign cattle intended for exhibition or other exceptional purposes" in the Act of 1896 as giving them power to permit such a large consignment as sixty foreign cattle to come into this country for breeding purposes. Nor do I desire to discuss whether it was prudent on the part of the Board to allow such a large number of animals to be imported from a country in parts of which certainly disease had been very recently prevalent, and the distribution of which cattle throughout the United Kingdom might seriously affect the export trade in the pure-bred stock of this country and also subject our herds and flocks to the risk of infection.
But what stock owners have to complain of is the remarkable secrecy that was maintained by the Board as to this importation. I am informed that a notice as to the importation of these cattle did appear at some time in the London Gazette. Well, my Lords, the London Gazette is a publication which is not read by a very large number of the public, and I think it is unreasonable to expect that the stock owners of this country should peruse every issue of the London Gazette in order to have information on a subject which is of such great concern to them as the importation, under the special permission of the Board, of a large number of foreign animals. As a matter of fact few persons, except those in the confidence of the Board and the members of the Holstein Society—who kept their secret, I may say, very well—were aware that these animals had been imported until

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they read in the newspapers the account of the sale by auction in November, three months after the cattle had actually arrived in this country. If these cattle had not been publicly sold by auction—though, no doubt, the facts would have eventually leaked out—it is possible that the public might have remained in ignorance of their importation for a very much longer period.
A general impression prevails amongst agriculturists that the Board desired to keep this matter dark, and this, I regret to say, has to a considerable extent shaken confidence in the Board's administration of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1896, which they look upon as the greatest protection they possess against the introduction of disease from abroad. And this impression has been recently rather strengthened by the manner in which these cattle, imported in August, have been dealt with in the Trade and Navigation Accounts. As your Lordships are aware, monthly Returns are published by the Board of Trade which give information not only as to the quantity and the value of goods imported and exported during the month but also as to articles of food, and under "Imports and Consumption," Head No. 1. B, in the Return there appears "Meat, including animals living (for food)." I should like specially to point out that in these Accounts, under Head IV, "Miscellaneous and Unclassified," a Return is given of the number and value of living animals, other than animals for food, which are imported and exported during the month. For example, under "Imports" you find in the Return the number and the value of horses imported into this country during the month. Under the head of "Exports" you find, besides horses, the number of living animals exported for breeding purposes—cattle, sheep, and pigs. One would naturally think that the Holstein cattle that were imported very early in the month of August for breeding purposes would have been included under this head in the Return for August, or at any rate in the Return for September; but on looking through the Returns for those months and for October and November, I find no reference whatever to these cattle.
LORD LUCAS: Is the date of the Return from which the noble Earl has been quoting January?
THE EARL or NORTHBROOK: No; December last.
LORD LUCAS: Are they exports or imports?
TRH EARL OF NORTHBROOK: Both. If the noble Lord will refer to page 128 of this Return [December, 1914] he will find the heading "IV.—Miscellaneous and Unclassified," and under that heading are given the number and value of horses imported into this country. Then if he turns to page 250 he will find the number of living animals—horses, cattle, sheep, and pigs—exported from this country for breeding purposes. One would naturally have expected that the Friesland cattle which were imported for breeding purposes early in the month of August would have been included in the Return for that month, but no mention of them is made until we come to the month of December. In the Return for December, under the head of "Imports of Meat and Cattle Living (for food)," after setting forth the number and value of the cattle imported from the United States of America and from the Channel Islands, it is stated—"Cattle from other countries, sixty; value £4,260." That is an average value of £71 per head, which is certainly an extraordinary price to put upon animals imported for slaughter at the port of landing for the purpose of food. In fact, it is so extraordinary a figure that I should have thought it must necessarily give rise to suspicion and inquiry on the part of any person who studied this Return. As the number and value of the cattle here given correspond exactly with the number and value of the Friesland cattle that were imported in the month of August, I think there can be no doubt as to their identity.
The information that I would ask the noble Lord to give me is, first, why foreign animals imported early in the month of August were not included in the Board of Trade Returns until the month of December? Next, why animals imported for breeding purposes were returned as animals for food. As I have pointed out in my Notice on the Paper, this Return renders incorrect the record as to the quantity and the value of food imported during the month of August and during the year 1914. I should like to know whether the Return was made on information supplied to the Board of Trade by the Board of Agriculture, and also who is responsible for the delay in mentioning the matter in the Return and for the misdescription of the animals.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD LUCAS): My Lords, I am very glad that the noble Earl has given me an opportunity of dealing with this matter, because I admit that the case against us, as stated by him, is very black indeed. I will deal first of all with the noble Earl's second, third, and fourth questions. We had no correspondence with the Board of Trade over this because, as a matter of fact, it was not the Board of Trade but the Board of Customs and Excise with whom we had to deal. The Board of Agriculture wrote to the Board of Customs and Excise on July 29 last about the landing of these cattle; they were duly landed a few days later, but the relative documents, although they appear to have been sent up by the Customs officer at the port, never reached headquarters. Nothing was known about it, and no record appears in the Monthly Account for August. I admit that on the face of it that is not a very satisfactory explanation. The only reason I can offer is that this happened during the opening days of the war, when the whole question of prohibition was being dealt with by the Government, and the Customs had to face a situation such as they had never had to face before. I think that is probably the true explanation why this regrettable loss of the documents occurred. My own Office is, I admit, also to blame in the matter, because the oversight was not noticed by us until December, when the Meat Trades Journal wrote to the Board of Agriculture about the omission. We then referred to the Board of Customs and Excise, who explained the matter to us, and having then obtained a copy of the missing entry they included the transaction in the Monthly Account for December, the other Accounts having, of course, been already published, and we were informed accordingly.
Then comes the other point to which the noble Earl referred, which also is rather difficult to explain—namely, why these animals were included under the heading of animals for the purposes of food. It is true, as the noble Earl points out, that animals for breeding purposes exported from this country are entered specifically under that heading, but for some reason best known to the Customs—I take it that the reason is that there have been so few animals imported into this country for breeding purposes—it has not been their practice to have a separate entry of cattle
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for breeding purposes; and we found, I admit to our astonishment, that these animals had been included under the heading of animals for the purposes of food.
THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: Do I understand that none of the horses that appear as imported were imported for breeding purposes?
LORD LUCAS: Yes, the horses are. There is a regular import of horses, chiefly pit ponies, and therefore they come under a specific entry in the Customs Returns. The reason apparently why the Customs authorities have not up to the present time given the same treatment to cattle is that the number imported is extremely few. We have drawn their attention to the matter, and the Board of Customs and Excise are in future going to tabulate their Returns so that animals of all kinds imported for breeding purposes will be entered as such. I can only express my great regret that this should have happened, because the last thing in the world that we wanted to do was in any way to conceal this importation. We knew that it was a question on which people in this country hold strong views, and we certainly had no intention whatever to try to conceal what we were doing.
As the noble Earl pointed out, under the Diseases of Animals Act an Order had to be made to permit this importation. That Order was presented to Parliament in the beginning of August and appeared in the London Gazette on August 4. It is true, as he said, that the London Gazette as such does not have a very wide circulation among the kind of people who are interested in these subjects. But what usually happens is this. The London Gazette is a publication which exists chiefly for public official notices, and these are republished, whenever they are of any interest whatsoever, by most if not all of the newspapers. It is one of the commonest ways of publishing an ordinary official notice, and I am quite certain of this, that had it not been that the newspapers were at the time entirely occupied with the subject of the war, the publication of this notice in the Gazette would have been commented upon by a large number of newspapers and would have received the necessary amount of publicity. The noble Earl referred to a missing animal—it was a young bull, which died in quarantine. During the whole time

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that the animals were in quarantine they were, of course, under the most careful veterinary supervision, and the post-mortem examination which was held on the animal in question showed that it died from heart disease, and there was no suspicion of anything like infectious disease.
Perhaps I may state, quite briefly, the reasons which led us to permit this importation. The breed of Holstein cattle in this country, though there are considerable numbers of them, is a breed that undoubtedly has suffered by the prohibition of importation laid down by the Diseases of Animals Acts; the breed as a whole was suffering considerably from the evils of inbreeding, and was very badly in need of new blood. The Holstein cattle that are bred in Holland are a dairy breed which no authority on cattle can afford to disregard. They are rapidly coining to be looked upon in a great many foreign countries as one of the leading dairy breeds, if not actually the leading dairy breed, in the world. As heavy milkers their records, authenticated under Government supervision in Holland, have never been surpassed. We find that there is a growing demand for these cattle in foreign countries. Even in the case of Holstein cattle bred in this country there is a growing export. But there is no doubt about it that in quality they do not compare with the Holstein cattle that belong to their native country. There is an additional argument, I think, in their favour, and that is that they are very much a working farmers' breed. The British Holstein Society consists very largely of dairy farmers, who find these cattle a very useful utility breed; and when they came to us and asked whether they could not be allowed to import a certain amount of new blood for the purpose of grading up their herds in this country, it seemed to us a very reasonable request and one which it would be difficult to refuse, provided that we could be satisfied that no danger and no evil effects would result.
Fortunately, in the case of Holland we are dealing with a country in which the Government supervision of contagious diseases is extremely efficient and strict, and we are therefore in a much better position than in dealing with countries where they are not so thorough in their administration. The position was this. In the provinces from which these cattle were imported there had been no foot-and-
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mouth disease for five months, no pleuropneumonia since the year 1887, and no cattle plague since the year 1867; so that after satisfying ourselves as to that we permitted this importation under very strict conditions of quarantine at Tilbury, at which every possible care and precaution was taken. The need for this new blood on the part of the members of the Holstein Society and the breeders of Holstein cattle generally is, I think, demonstrated by the extraordinarily high prices which these cattle fetched at the sale, which shows that the demand was a real one; and as it had been arranged that no one purchaser was to be allowed to buy more than two or three cattle, the success of the sale proved that a large number of members attached great importance to having these cattle.
I am bound to say that I think it is one of our obligations at the Board of Agriculture to do what we can, when opportunity occurs, to improve the breeds of live stock in this country; and if we can satisfy ourselves, as we did in this case, that the risks are not too great my interpretation of our duty is that we should be ready to do all we can in this direction. There is only one other point— the question of the effect upon the export trade. I admit that you would be paying much too dear a price if you shook the faith of foreign countries in the state of health of the animals in this country. That was a thing which we had not by any means left out of account. We did take steps to satisfy ourselves, in the case of certainly our most important client abroad, that this action on our part would not have a prejudicial effect.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, I think your Lordships will agree that we are under a genuine debt of gratitude to the noble Earl for having brought this question to the notice of the House. It is one which has engaged the attention of agriculturists throughout the country, and, as the noble Lord the President of the Board of Agriculture is well aware, a considerable number of recommendations have been addressed to the Board of Agriculture upon it. The chapter of misfortunes which the noble Lord had to relate is certainly an unhappy one. The mishaps which occurred, together with the delay of the entry of these cattle in the Accounts and their classification as for food instead of for breeding purposes, show a condition of affairs which is not at all

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satisfactory; but, in view of what the noble Lord has said, we must accept the facts as they are. I would press upon the noble Lord that this has been a serious departure from a well-established practice which has obtained for a good number of years, and which ought never to have been departed from except for some grave reason. Personally I am a little inclined to doubt the wisdom or the propriety of the steps which have been taken; but, as the noble Lord says, that is a matter for argument and one which ought no doubt to be the subject of a further discussion.
I would like, as the subject has been raised, to take this opportunity of saying that every precaution ought to be taken in the future, if ever such a large importation is contemplated again, to enable those most interested to have the fullest opportunity of considering the matter in all its bearings. This was a large importation, and possibly it is the magnitude of the number of cattle and the peculiar misfortunes that have happened which have caused a most unsatisfactory feeling of suspicion in the minds of a great number of people intimately connected with cattle-breeding and stock-rearing. I hope that as the outcome of this discussion the noble Lord will, before any further departure from the principle which has been universally accepted is contemplated, give the fullest possible notice, and that, even if the technical conditions are being complied with by the insertion of a notice in the London Gazette, the fuller opportunities which are at the disposal of the Board of Agriculture will be made use of in making known as widely as possible any such contemplated importation in the future.
LORD BARNARD: My Lords, before the debate closes I should like to ask the noble Lord the President of the Board of Agriculture whether it is contemplated that there shall be any further importation of Friesland cattle, or whether the case which has been alluded to is an entirely exceptional one.
LORD LUCAS: Every case of this kind must be considered on its merits. I should not like to give a definite undertaking that we will never permit a repetition of this. At the same time, I realise very clearly indeed that there is, or at any rate may be, a good deal of risk—which I admit it is my first duty to guard against—connected with any operation of the kind.

THE BEET-SUGAR INDUSTRY.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are taking, or propose to take, any steps for encouraging or assisting the establishment of a British beet-sugar industry as a matter of national importance, and so taking advantage of the present exceptionally favourable opportunity of making ourselves less dependent on German and Austrian supplies.
I do not think I need make any apology for bringing this subject again before the House, because it is one that is exciting a great amount of interest in the country at the present moment. While I entirely disclaim any desire to raise anything in the shape of what might be called Party controversies, we cannot get rid of the fact that unless something is done by His Majesty's Government in the way of helping or encouraging the establishment of the sugar industry in this country we shall have to wait many years before anything practical can come about. I raise the question at this particular moment because, as your Lordships are aware, this is a season subject and plans must be made beforehand; and although I am afraid that matters have been allowed to drift too long and that nothing can be done this year, still it is very unfortunate to realise that a great deal of valuable time has been wasted and nothing can be done towards tackling this subject and producing sugar in this country until the autumn of next year.
It is now some seven years since I first brought this subject before your Lordships' House. I then pointed out how the passing of the Sugar Convention in the year 1902 brought this matter within the range of practical politics and made the sugar industry in this country a commercial possibility, and I asked for the support and sympathy of His Majesty's Government. We got a certain amount of sympathy in the way of words, but we never got anything more substantial for some considerable period, until about two or three years ago the Government, realising the great progress which had been made in the experiments and in the campaign of education which we conducted in the country, agreed not to place an Excise on the sugar which was being made at the one solitary factory at Cantley, in Norfolk. The situation practically is this. The result of the work which we have done in the last six or seven years has been such as to prove that the sugar

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industry, which is one of such magnitude and importance upon the Continent and also in the United States of America, can be most certainly established in the British Isles if it is handled properly and taken up by the Government of the day as a serious and national question. It has only been by considering the matter in that way that it has been made a success in those countries where it now flourishes.
This industry is one of great complexity and of many ramifications, and it cannot be started in the way that an ordinary industry can be, simply by providing capital and building a factory. There are so many interests involved, and agriculture comes so largely into it that there is no gainsaying the fact that it is a national question and ought to be treated as such. It resolves itself into the provision of capital for the building of the necessary factories, and it also depends upon what price the factories can afford to pay the farmers for the raw material. You have these two interests involved. You cannot get the farmers to contract largely for the provision of the raw material unless they can be absolutely certain that a factory will be built in their neighbourhood and will be managed and financed in such a way that they can be safe to regard it as a more or less permanent institution and one in which they can have absolute faith. On the other hand, it is extremely difficult to get the necessary capital for building large factories, which cost a considerable sum of money—and, mind you, it is only the large factories which are a real success upon the Continent. Indeed, it is almost impossible to obtain the capital necessary for building these large factories unless the capitalists who are asked to provide the money can be absolutely certain about a continued supply of the necessary raw material. And so we have been going round and round in a sort of circle, not getting any more forward than we were before.
I have several times addressed your Lordships on this subject and I have no doubt been regarded more or less as a public nuisance by my friends, which I am afraid is very often the case with those who bring forward a new idea that is not very clearly understood. I may say this, too, that in more speeches, letters to the Press, and articles than I care now to think of, those who have been associated with my-sell have tried to hammer into the British public the extent to which we were depen-
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dent upon the supplies which came from the countries with which we are now at war. In the year 1913 no less than 1,200,000 tons of sugar came from Germany and Austria alone. That is a very large item, and it is rather curious to look hack now and realise that when we began this campaign of education there were very large numbers of people in this country who did not realise that anything in the shape of beet-sugar was consumed, or even that sugar could be made from beet at all. However, that is all ancient history. What we have to do now is to consider the present situation.
I said just now that one of the great difficulties with which we have to contend is the price which the factory can afford to pay the farmer. The farmer, as your Lordships know, is a most conservative person, and it is extremely difficult to get him to undertake new methods and practices to which he is not accustomed. Therefore it is necessary to be able to assure him that if he undertakes what to a certain extent is a new system of farming and embarks largely upon a new crop, which he has got to learn and which involves a considerable amount of trouble in looking after, the profits which he is going to reap will make it worth his while. The price which the factory can afford to pay the fanner depends entirely on the working cost of the factory and on the price which the factory can get for the finished article, the sugar; it is well known that in recent years there has been so much competition in the world of sugar that at times there has been considerable over-production and the price has dropped really below the cost of production. The capitalists on the Continent, well acquainted with all the ramifications and difficulties of the industry, were prepared to face the situation; but when it came to getting capital over here it has proved impossible on a large scale unless it could be shown that the price of sugar would be such as to enable the factory to make a decent profit for itself after paying such a price to the farmers as to ensure the necessary raw material.
The present situation is that, owing to our dependence upon the Continent, everything which we said would happen in the event of a European war has most unfortunately come true, and we find ourselves faced with a cutting off of large supplies of what is a most necessary and important article of food, with the result, as your Lordships know, that the price has risen

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to a very high figure. If there were at the present moment factories in this country, they would probably make a very large sum of money and it would be a very flourishing industry. The one factory which does exist—I do not think I am divulging any secret—is probably being saved from disaster by the fact of these high prices having come about. But what people are asking now is, Supposing we put up money to build factories and to try and spread this industry in the country, what is going to happen at the end of the war? Is everything to be resumed in the matter of importation of sugar as if nothing had happened? Is German and Austrian sugar going to be admitted free as it was in years gone by? It is, I admit, a very difficult question; but still there it is, and it is a question that has to be faced. I am very sorry, my Lords, if it raises a difficult and controversial question, but I do not see how it can be avoided. There is another matter which is being considered by His Majesty's Government—namely, the establishment of an industry for providing aniline dyes—and it has been strongly urged there, I believe, that unless the Government can harden their hearts either to take some steps themselves in the way of providing the money or else of securing the country against the unlimited dumping of aniline dyes at the close of the war, it is very difficult to start that industry.
There is no doubt that a considerable change of opinion is taking place in the country at this moment on this subject. I noticed the other day a striking letter in the public Press from Lord Cromer, who said he thought that it would be necessary, as the result of this war, to depart very considerably from what had been up till now regarded as strict ethics by the supporters of Free Trade. And I noticed the other day a speech by Lord Rosebery, in which he said very much the same thing but in considerably stronger terms. Therefore I urge upon your Lordships that there is a considerable change of opinion taking place with regard to this matter, and it would be very satisfactory if we could know what the intentions of His Majesty's Government are on the subject. Personally I do not care what is done so long as something is done.
There are different ways of helping the industry. I believe there have been suggestions that the Government should build factories themselves and find the
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money. It would be very difficult, I think, to find the money under existing circumstances unless the Government assist in that sort of way. But I should be sorry to see the Government embarking as the managers and owners of large factories of this description. Government institutions have not hitherto been highly successful in the management of concerns of that description, and it would be far better that the management should be by private individuals and in the ordinary commercial way. If the Government do undertake anything of that sort, then they ought to take the earliest possible opportunity of parting with the factories to commercial companies and letting them carry them on in the ordinary way. Something might be done perhaps in the way of guaranteeing the interest on the necessary capital. And then you come back again to the one question to which everybody wants an answer. What is going to happen at the close of the war? Will German and Austrian sugar be again admitted in the way it has been in years gone by? If I have raised an inconvenient question I hope noble Lords opposite will forgive me. I have not brought the matter forward for the purpose of causing any difficulties but simply for the sake of asking for information, because unless we can get some sort of assurance of what the Government attitude is upon this subject it is extremely difficult to make any progress whatever. The matter is now generally regarded as one of considerable importance, and therefore I beg to ask the Government the Question which stands in my name.
LORD LUCAS: My Lords, I am sure that all agriculturists in this country are under a debt of gratitude to the noble Earl for having made the subject of sugar-beet growing a practical question and one to which anybody having anything to do with agriculture has to give a great deal of consideration. If sugar-beet growing in this country becomes an established part of our agricultural system it will be in large measure due to his unremitting efforts. But I am bound to say that it is not a very hopeful sign after all the years he has been advocating this and after he has acquired so much knowledge on this particular subject, that he should hold the view which I think he expressed to-night—that it is an industry which will not succeed in this country unless there is some form of State assistance behind it.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: I beg the noble Lord's pardon, but I should like to correct that impression. If I conveyed that idea it was not what I meant. I did not mean to say that it is not an industry that can succeed. My point is that it is one which it is very difficult to start. Anybody who knows anything about the industry will concede the fact that after it has been going for a certain number of years the cost will certainly largely diminish. There is the question of the organisation of the labour and the acquiring of knowledge and the gaining of confidence by the farmers. Therefore the question of starting the industry and putting it well on its legs is the chief difficulty.
LORD LUCAS: I withdraw what I said. I did not understand that. I fully realise the difficulties to which Lord Denbigh calls attention. In starting things of this sort you are bound to be faced with enormous difficulties; and especially in a case of this kind you cannot make a start without a great deal of capital. As the noble Earl said, people's attention was very much drawn to this question by the situation in which we found ourselves at the beginning of the war and the sudden cutting off of the greater part of our European supply; the thing came up then in a form much more urgent than that in which it had ever presented itself before. I have always felt that this is a subject which requires the most detailed investigation. We are greatly indebted to the National Sugar Beet Association, of which the noble Earl is president, for the information that they have given us on this subject, but a great deal more information is still required. The question as to the suitability of our system of agriculture to growing sugar-beet on a large scale has to be gone into and examined with the greatest care. Fortunately we have now a certain amount of data—not as complete as one could wish, but still a good deal to go on with. I felt that it would be our duty at the Board of Agriculture to make ourselves thoroughly acquainted with the matter, and to be able to publish to the country what our view was with regard to sugar-beet growing as a desirable form of industry. I realised that we could not do that without collecting a great deal more knowledge than we possess at the present time, and I have therefore taken steps for the most thorough and searching inquiry possible to be made into the whole question. I have asked
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Mr. Orwin, of Oxford University, the Director of the Institute for Research in Agricultural Economics, to undertake this inquiry on our behalf, and the inquiry is at the present moment proceeding. I am sure that we could not have an abler man than Mr. Orwin, and that the results which we shall eventually get from him will be of a kind On which we shall be able to base a definite opinion.
I have never regarded this matter from the point of view of whether the industry could or could not be fostered by State aid. I have always thought that the crux of the question is whether sugar-beet is a crop which will ever commend itself to the farmers of this country. In drawing comparisons between this country and other countries for this particular purpose one has to remember that there are certain features about British agriculture which do not apply elsewhere. There is, first of all, the feeding industry, which to a more or less extent the growing of sugar-beet is bound to replace. The feeding industry is a much larger and more important thing here than it is on the Continent. The second point is that almost all, if not all, of the countries which go in for sugar-beet growing on a large scale have at their disposal what is an essential thing—namely, an easily available supply of usually cheap, in some cases very cheap, labour. The country which of all the European countries is coming to the fore in this respect and increasing its sugar output most rapidly is Russia, and that is a country which has a large supply of cheap labour. That is one of the things which the farmer has to take into consideration. I am only putting some of the difficulties which present themselves to us.
There is no doubt that the sugar-beet crop requires a good deal more labour expended upon it and much more supervision by the farmer than is the case with root crops. We have to find out whether the return that the sugar-beet crop would give the farmer would be sufficiently larger than the return that he now gets for his root crops to make it worth his while to under take the greater amount of trouble which he would be occasioned. It is on those lines that we shall be able to see whether or not sugar-beet is a crop which British farmers will take up. Therefore what I am aiming at is to get definite data which will show the comparative values of the two crops. The

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actual value of the root crop, of course, depends chiefly on the price of meat. When meat is dear the root crop is more valuable, and vice versa. The value of the beet crop to the farmer will be the price that he will get from the factory. If you can have two tables prepared showing the comparative value of these two crops to the farmer—showing what the beet crop is worth to him under the scale of prices that a factory might be expected to give, and the value to him of the root crop at the prices between which beef ranges—then you will be able to see to what extent it is worth the farmer's while embarking on the cultivation of this new form of crop. Until we have that, I do not think that very much progress can be made. The first thing that you have to do in this country—and it is the difficulty which has been faced in the attempts that have gone on so far—is to make it perfectly plain to the farmer exactly what he is going to get from the crop. Similarly, you also want to show to the man who is proposing to set up his factory the sort of price that he will have to pay to the farmer to make sure of getting a steady supply of sugar-beet. Until we have those things clear, I do not think you will get either the farmers to come forward and undertake to grow sugar-beet in considerable quantities or the necessary capitalist to put up the factory.
Let us assume for the sake of example that the data show that unless 25 s. a ton is paid for sugar-beet the value of sugar-beet is not very much greater than the value of a crop of mangolds. Then the problem before the man who is going to put up the factory is whether, in view of this price, it is worth his while to put up a factory. If he says that he can undertake to give that price to the farmer, then he is at once in a position to be able to ensure his supply. The difficulty up to now is that there has not been any sufficiently definite arrangement made to make the farmers feel that it is worth their while to grow any more beet than they grew the year before. That is the difficulty which has occurred in Norfolk and Suffolk, the chief counties concerned. I think the Board of Agriculture should supply the necessary data on which the farmers and the people who are considering the provision of a factory may be able to work, so that they may, using these figures, arrive at a price which suits both parties. If we get that, I think that is going to be the best prospect
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of advancing the industry. As I have said, Mr. Orwin is at work. He has completed part of his Report. I am asking him to continue his investigations, and I hope we shall be able before many months to publish something pretty conclusive. Even if we were to start at once with the construction of a factory I am given to understand that it would not be possible under existing circumstances to complete it in time to deal with the crop that would be sown during these next few weeks or months.
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: I am afraid not.
LORD LUCAS: That being so, I am inclined to think that we shall not be really losing time if we spend a little longer on the detailed investigations of the problem.
*THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, my noble friend (Lord Denbigh), at the outset of his remarks, told the House that he had on previous occasions brought this matter before us but had never succeeded in extracting from the Front Bench opposite anything more than a sympathetic reception for his observations. I am afraid that he has not got very far beyond that point this evening, because with the exception of some well-deserved compliments which the noble Lord opposite paid him he has not yet obtained any encouragement worth naming from His Majesty's Government. The noble Lord the President of the Board of Agriculture told us that this question needed detailed investigation, and that his Department required a great deal more information than they at present possessed. There are, as the noble Lord truly said, a number of points which have to be considered attentively before we can recommend our agriculturists to embark upon a system of farming which certainly does involve a very wide departure from anything to which they are used at present. The question of soil and climate has to be considered. And there is another point which I think should not be lost sight of—namely, whether it is not the case that the cultivation of beet greatly benefits the subsequent crops which are taken from the same area. I am told that Continental experience and such experience as we have been able to collect in this country go to show that that is the case, and I am quite sure that the noble Lord will not allow that point to be lost sight of. But I venture to make this

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observation. The noble Lord takes a certain amount of credit to himself for having set on foot this inquiry by Mr. Orwin. But my noble friend brought this subject forward in 1910, and again in 1911—
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: In 1907.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: And, I rather think, on other occasions. What has the Board of Agriculture been doing all this time? Why did not they then start this investigation? There was an immense amount of material available had they chosen to take advantage of it, and I think we have a right to complain that, after having again and again had this subject urged upon them with great force and with great moderation by my noble friend, they should only now be beginning to make an inquiry which obviously is so desirable. The only other observation I should like to make is this. I feel convinced that whatever the result of the inquiry is, even if it should be to show that this beet industry can be profitably introduced into this country, some encouragement will have to be given in the initial stages in order to induce the capitalist and the farmer to embark upon the experiment. My noble friend made it quite clear that he has not in view a permanently State-aided industry; that is not what he and his friends are asking for. But in no industry will a capitalist put down the necessary plant and embark the necessary capital unless he has some reasonable security for obtaining a return for the money which he invests. It was suggested when this matter was last before your Lordships that a grant from the Development Fund was a not unreasonable way of giving the necessary assistance, and I hope that that will be borne in mind by His Majesty's Government. All I will add is that I trust that the noble Lord will see to it that there is no delay, and that this inquiry, which might have been begun long ago, shall be prosecuted with all possible expedition.
*THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD ISLINGTON): My Lords, perhaps I may be permitted to intervene for a few moments in order to bring before the House another aspect, by no means the least important, in regard to this question of assistance to the introduction and establishment of a beet-sugar industry in this country. I gathered from
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what has been said by the noble Earl and the noble Marquess that the main object in bringing this subject before the House was to elicit, if possible, some sympathetic reply in regard to financial assistance, at any rate in the early stages, for the establishment of factories in connection with the beet industry; and it was shown quite clearly by the noble Earl that the establishment on an economic and practical basis of the industry in this country could hardly be expected without some such financial assistance during the early years. Apart from the difficulties referred to by my noble friend the President of the Board of Agriculture and apart from the complexities which were dwelt upon by the noble Earl as surrounding this question, I desire to bring to the mind of the House the practical difficulties which at present stand in way of any Government in this country affording financial assistance in the direction indicated this afternoon. When Great Britain withdrew from the Sugar Convention in September of 1913, an undertaking was made by the Convention Powers that sugar and sugar-manufactured articles exported from this country to any of those countries would be admitted on the lowest rung of the tariff—in other words, under most-favoured-nation treatment. But that privilege wan granted to Great Britain on the understanding that Great Britain in her turn would by no direct or indirect means undertake bounties or subsidies for the establishment of a sugar industry in this country. It was laid down, I think, that if such were done a declaration at any rate should be made by Great Britain to all the Convention Powers, a declaration which would embody any departure in the direction of preference to sugar produced within the United Kingdom—
THE EARL OF DENBIGH: May I ask whether His Majesty's Government are of opinion that the situation as regards all such Conventions is in no way changed by the present state of war, and that things are going on afterwards as they did before?
LORD ISLINGTON: I was coming to that. Six months notice must be given by His Majesty's Government to any of those Convention Powers before any departure is made from the present arrangement. The noble Earl asks whether the present situation will make no difference. Of course it will make a difference to the extent of tearing up any agreement or treaty with

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the Powers with which we are now at war. But the other Powers included in the Sugar Convention are our Allies and neutral Powers, and with those countries, both collectively and severally, it will be found that we are doing a very large business in regard to manufactures based upon the sugar industry. Therefore whilst I, like my noble friend Lord Lucas, fully sympathise with the position indicated by the noble Earl in regard to emergencies of the war and the shortage that must ensue from the withdrawal of supplies from Austria and Germany, I think the noble Earl will admit, even in face of that, that any departure from the undertakings laid down with the Convention Powers would run the risk, possibly the serious risk, of any of those Powers making arrangements less favourable to us in regard to their tariff system. My intervention in this debate has been solely to place this aspect of the question
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before the House, because it is one that should not be lost sight of. It is one which must be the basis of very serious consideration by any Government who undertook to establish a sugar industry in this country based upon financial assistance. I would repeat what my noble friend said, that in view of all the difficulties it is much better for us to find out first to what extent the establishment of this industry will be of advantage to the farmers in this country. Until we have that necessary data before us it would be premature to enter actively upon any undertakings which, before they could be carried out, would have to be considered from the agricultural and also from the commercial point of view which I have ventured to point out.
House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.