Lords Sitting of 15 December 1915

BARONY OF WHARTON.
The speeches delivered by Counsel, the evidence taken before the Committee for Privileges, and the Minutes of Proceedings to be printed.
BARONIES OF FERRERS, BOURCHIER AND COMPTON.
Committee for Privileges met: Counsel further heard on behalf of the Claimant Henry Ferrers-Ferrers: The Attorney-General heard: Counsel heard on behalf of the Claimant Mr. Charles Vere Townshend Mainwaring-Elleker-Onslow: The Attorney-General heard: Witnesses examined: Evidence put in: Committee adjourned sine die.

RETURNS, REPORTS, &c.
Clyde Munition Workers—Report by the Right Honourable the Lord Balfour of Burleigh, K.T., G.C.M.G., and Mr. Lynden Macassey, K.C., to the Minister of Munitions, upon the apprehended differences affecting munition workers in the Clyde District: Presented (by command) and ordered to lie on the Table.
India (Loans raised in India)—Return of all Loans raised in India, chargeable on the revenues of India, outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ended 30th September 1915, &c.: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie on the Table.

EDUCATION (SMALL POPULATION GRANTS) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday next (The Earl of Selborne). (No.187.)

RECRUITING.
LORD STRACHIEhad the following Questions on the Paper—
To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can give under the Earl of Derby's recruiting scheme—

1. The total number of unstarred and starred men;

2. The number canvassed;

3. The number of men enlisted;

4. The number willing to enlist;

5. The number willing to be grouped;

6. The number who refused to enlist or be grouped;

7. The number rejected;

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and whether he will state the total number in each of the above classes who are married or who are single men.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I understand that my Questions will be answered by the noble Earl who was responsible for the initiation of this great scheme, which I am sure your Lordships hope and believe will have proved the great success that it deserved to be as a result of all the energy and ability which the noble Earl put into it. Since placing my Notice on the Paper I saw a statement in the Westminster Gazette, which to a larger extent than any other newspaper is the organ of the Government, to the effect that the Prime Minister would make a statement in the House of Commons to-morrow (Thursday) with regard to the recruiting campaign; and that it had been unanimously agreed at the Recruiting Conference over which Lord Derby presided that nothing should be said to anticipate that statement of the Prime Minister. But from what the Prime Minister said in the House of Commons last night it appears to be thought undesirable that any statement should be made this week, and Mr. Asquith's statement will be made, I understand, next week on the Vote for an increase in the Army. At the same time it appears from what was said at the conference over which the noble Earl presided that the round figures submitted by the noble Earl showing the result of the scheme were regarded as very satisfactory indeed. Although the noble Earl may not be prepared—and I should be the last to press him to do so—to anticipate the statement which the Prime Minister wishes to make first in the House of Commons, still it would not be out of place, perhaps, to ask him, seeing that the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee met in the House of Commons yesterday and had Lord Derby's Report submitted to them and that the Labour representatives expressed themselves generally satisfied with the gross returns of the campaign, whether he can go so far as to inform us whether or not the statements that have appeared in the Press are correct. Even if we may not have the actual details, perhaps we may be given an assurance that the scheme has proved satisfactory and that the difficulties which sonic feared might come to the country if the scheme was not a success have been got rid of. Perhaps the noble Earl will also be able to assure the House and the country that the vast majority of the single men have

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enlisted. I understand that at the same time that the Prime Minister makes his statement in another place next week a Memorandum will be issued to members of the House of Commons setting forth, but in greater detail, the answers to the questions which I have placed on the Paper; and I would ask the noble Earl whether a similar Memorandum might not be issued to members of this House. I hope the noble Earl will understand that I am not desiring to press him in any way; but the House and the country are anxious to have some official assurance that things are as satisfactory in regard to the noble Earl's scheme as the newspapers would lead us to believe.
THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I would ask leave, in replying to the noble Lord, to go perhaps beyond the ordinary limit of an answer. The noble Lord has asked for information under seven different headings. In the Report which will be furnished to the Prime Minister and to the Secretary of State for War practically everything that the noble Lord asks for under these seven headings will be given. There is, however, one error, or one alteration necessary, in the Questions on the Paper. The noble Lord asks for the number of men willing to enlist and the number of men willing to be grouped. Those will not be included. We have not taken into consideration in computing our numbers anything except those men who have actually enlisted, or actually been attested in their groups. Willingness to join has not been counted at all. The noble Lord says that yesterday the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee had before them my Report. I think that must be a mistake. I am perfectly certain that my Report was not before them. The Report was submitted on Sunday last to the Secretary of State for War and in duplicate to the Prime Minister. What I think was probably before the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee yesterday was the general statement of the result of discussion which has been a weekly occurrence at 12, Downing-street, between myself and the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee and the Joint Labour Recruiting Committee, who have assisted and, indeed, done the work of canvassing under the present scheme.
I can give no figures whatsoever. The Prime Minister will give those, I understand, next Tuesday; and I want to explain to
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the House the reasons why it is impossible to give figures before date. When the scheme for recruiting men into groups was first put forward it was determined that it should cease on November 30. Circumstances afterwards arose which made us extend it to December 4, the end of the week, and it was understood that recruiting should go on during the following week up to December 11 while I was drawing up my Report. I mention this because the Report which I said I would draw up of the figures to November 30 was drawn up, and is the only Report at the present moment. I could not carry it beyond that date because gross figures are really of no importance whatsoever, unless you are able to give an analysis and show how many married men and how many single men there are in each group. The Report that I based on the figures to November 30, I do not hesitate to say, is absolutely worthless for the purpose of consideration by the country. The number then taken into the groups was very small. It is now very large.
We had hoped for a steady flow of recruits during the progress of the canvass in the country, instead of which, for the first few weeks it was small, though gradually growing in volume, and it was left to the last week to really show the spirit of the country. I can use no other expression for the recruiting of the last week except to say that we were completely snowed under. With the rush we had to extend recruiting to Sunday, and we had moreover to say on Sunday that any men who gave in their names and could not be attested on Sunday could have their final attestation carried out on the Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday; and the figures, great on Sunday, were nearly as great on both Monday and Tuesday. The Recruiting Committee had it in their minds as far as possible to create during their canvass an election atmosphere, and thanks to the Press we succeeded to an almost too realistic extent. Some of your Lordships who have had to undergo a General Election know what difficulty there is in getting voters to the poll, and how they invariably leave it until the last hour. It was exactly the same in this recruiting campaign, and when the numbers are given, as I hope they will be by the Prime Minister next week, I think you will see that it would have been quite impossible for the Prime Minister to have submitted my first Report

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and to have asked the country to come to any conclusion on that Report.
Statistics are being got out as rapidly as possible, and I hope that enough will be forthcoming to give at all events an approximate estimate, perhaps in some cases an exact statement, of the number of men whom we have enlisted in each group, in order that the proper conclusions may be arrived at by the Government. The noble Lord has asked me to say whether or not I consider the result satisfactory. I must decline to answer that question. The gross total is very large, but until the analysis is prepared which will show how many of the men attested are what is known as "starred" men, what are known as men in reserved occupations, it will be impossible to say how many of the gross total are really available for service, and even from that number deductions must be made under two headings. First of all—and these must be only an estimate—there must be a deduction on account of men who are medically unfit, because in the last stages of the recruiting campaign it was quite impossible to do more than make a most cursory medical examination. Then there is another reduction which must be made in the gross total, and that is the number of men who are likely to he considered indispensable. That must be pure guesswork. There is nothing whatever to go on, and I shall state in my Report that it is guess-work.
But there is another fact which must also be considered before the country comes to a conclusion with regard to future policy, and that is how far the single man has responded to the country's call. We hope to be able to give these figures in detail. But I venture to ask your Lordships to support me in saying that it will be absolutely impossible for any action to be taken which will necessitate the calling up of married men until the country is absolutely convinced that the single man has come forward to such an extent as to leave only a negligible quantity unaccounted for. We must of all things keep faith with the pledge that the Prime Minister gave to the married men. It is on these grounds that I would beg the country as a whole not to pay the slightest attention to the various figures that are put before them now as being the result of the canvass. It must be purely guess-work as to what the value of those figures is. I see that
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estimates are given by this individual and that individual that the single man has come forward in sufficient numbers or has not come forward in sufficient numbers. I would like to state very definitely that nobody at the present moment can know whether he has come forward in sufficient numbers or not, but that it will be known, I hope, by Tuesday next.
I have little else to say to your Lordships; but I would ask permission to take the only public opportunity I may have of tendering my most sincere thanks to three bodies who have assisted me in doing what they could to make this recruiting campaign a success. I want to thank the Parliamentary Recruiting Committee and the Joint Labour Recruiting Committee, which have sat together as one Committee. We have met every week. Theirs has been the work, through their various Parliamentary agencies and recruiting committees, of carrying out the canvass. We have discussed matters every week. We have never had one word of discoid or dissent front the beginning of the campaign to the present day, and I am deeply grateful for the assistance they have given me.
Next I would ask to be allowed to tender my most sincere thanks to the recruiting staff, not only at the War Office but throughout the country. Few people can have any idea of the work they have had to do during the past six or seven weeks. It has been of a new kind; it has been of a very exacting kind; and in every instance we have always been met by a cheerful willingness to do what they possibly could to make the scheme a success. Of course, there have been complaints that during the inrush of recruits in the last few days there were occasionally some things done which ought not to have been done and some not done which ought to have been done. That was not their fault. That was the fault of the public who waited till the last moment. I think the position is most aptly described in this week's Punch, where a young man abusing the recruiting officer for keeping him waiting for five hours receives the answer, "Yes; but you have been keeping us waiting for fifteen months." That describes the position, I think, very accurately. I would like to anticipate a criticism that may, perhaps, be made if there is no recruiting in the Christmas holidays by saying that I think it is only fair that the recruiting staff,

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which has worked so energetically, practically day and night, should have their Christmas holidays just as Mitch as anybody else in this country. Therefore there will be no recruiting between the evening of December 23 and the morning of December 28.
The other body to which I wish to tender my most sincere thanks is the Press, who have given every possible facility to our Committee to put their views before the country. By the aid the Press have given to us they have indeed made possible what I hope will prove a successful campaign. I do not think I have anything else to lay before your Lordships except to say that, even if to some people the Report next Tuesday may not be considered satisfactory, there is one thing that to my mind is absolutely satisfactorY, and that is—and this I have the authority of my colleagues on the recruiting committees to state—that there is an evidence, an overwhelming evidence, that the country is absolutely determined to do all in its power to bring the present war to a successful conclusion.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords,. we have all listened with close attention and deep interest to the statement made by my noble friend, and I have no doubt that the House will agree—I am confident also that the noble Lord on the Front Bench opposite (Lord Strachie) will himself agree—that the answer which the noble Earl has given to the series of Questions on the Paper is as full and as complete as could possibly be expected in the circumstances. It is quite evident—I think the noble Lord himself in his remarks foresaw that such would be the case—that a categorical answer to most of the Questions was not possible at this moment, and I feel sure, therefore, that the House will fall in with the suggestion of the noble Earl that we should reserve our general judgment until we are acquainted, not merely with the figures which will soon be forthcoming, but with the analysis and explanation of those figures. I therefore will not attempt to enter into any of the questions which were barely indicated by Inv noble friend in his reply as to the circumstances in which the results may be considered satisfactory or the contrary. I will entirely confine myself, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, to a few words of congratulation to my noble friend Lord
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Derby on the completion of the heavy task which he has undertaken.
We greatly appreciate the noble Earl's ungrudging but by no means thankless Labours. I am certain that the country will fully recognise the great service which he has rendered. In these days it has sometimes been a difficult question as to whether it is possible to apply the right man to a particular work or to find precisely the right work for a particular man, but in this case I feel confident that all the noble Earl's friends and acquaintances here and all those outside who do not know him as well as we do will agree that the best possible choice was made. The noble Earl and I are too old friends for him to suspect me of desiring to pay him compliments but I cannot refrain from saving this much, that not only my noble friend's personal qualities or his past experience, both military and civil, but in particular the agreeable relations in winch he stands to so many classes of persons throughout the country, not least the representatives of the Labour Party—all these things have fitted him for the task which he has been good enough to undertake beyond all other men who could have been selected for the purpose. I do not desire. as I said, to enter into any kind of forecast of the information which the next few days will make public. I therefore confine myself solely to this public recognition of the work which my noble friend has so generously performed.
THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I thank the noble Marquess for what he has so kindly said. There was one question which the noble Lord asked to which I did not give an answer—namely, whether a Memorandum could be prepared before next Tuesday and circulated. I do not think it will be possible to get the figures and the Report ready before Monday next. I will inform the Prime Minister of the noble Lord's wish, and it will be for him to say whether or not he can circulate a Memorandum. But at the present moment my impression is that it will not be possible to prepare any Memorandum before that date.
LORD STRACHIE: What I asked was that the noble Earl should give an assurance that if a Memorandum is circulated to members of the other House a similar Memorandum will be circulated to members of your Lordships' House.

RECRUTTING FOR YEOMANRY REGIMENTS.
LORD SYDENHAM: My Lords, my noble friend LORD LAMINGTON is prevented by his military duties from being in his place this evening, and he has asked me to the Paymaster-General the question standing in his name—viz., Why Yeomanry regiments whose 1st Line are serving abroad dismounted, and whose 2nd or 3rd Lines are not up to strength, should be prohibited from taking recruits over 5ft. 6ins in height." The point that my noble friend particularly wishes to bring out is this. The position of a Yeomanry regiment which has one of its units serving abroad is special and peculiar, and if such a omanry regiment is restricted in its recruiting operations it may find not only that it cannot supply the drafts required for the unit abroad, but hat it is not able to make itself an efficient unit for service at home. That, I believe, is the present position of the Lanaikshire Yeomanry with which my noble friend is connected. Such a position, if it exists, must necessarily be both discouraging alike to the officers and the men. It has been announced publicly that the men who have been grouped under Lord Derby's scheme are still to be permitted to recruit whenever they choose into particular units, but I understand that cases arise in which nits which could recruit men are forbidden fit do so. I do not know whether that is the case. I hope it is not; for it seems to me that the willing man, if he desires to go into a particular unit, should be encouraged to do so.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD NEWTON): My Lords, the steps of which the noble Lord complains have been dictated by the necessity of diverting the flow of recruits as much as possible into the Territorial Infantry and into Yeomanry regiments which have a 1st Line unit serving dismounted abroad. On October 6 a general minimum height of 5ft. 3in. and a maximum height of 5ft. 6in. for all Yeomanry regiments was prescribed. A month following recruiting for all Yeomanry regiments whose 1st Line units were not being employed dismounted on active service was stopped altogether. At the beginning of the present month units whose 1st Line were employed dismounted on active service were allowed to abandon the height standard altogether. Therefore I think my noble friend in putting this Question must have been under some misapprehension. The statement I have
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given is corroborated by private information which I happened to obtain this afternoon before coming down to the House.

DEFENCE OF LONDON AGAINST AIRCRAFT.
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, I rise to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether Sir Percy Scott has ceased to be responsible for the anti-aircraft defence of London; and, if so, for what reason. The other day it was stated in the House of Commons that the Admiralty were going to give up control of the protection of London against hostile aircraft, but it was not made clear in the answers of the Under-Secretary of State for War whether or not Sir Percy Scott was to remain in supreme command. We all remember that Mr. Balfour, after a hostile aircraft raid, announced with a great flourish of trumpets and to the satisfact on of the country that Sir Percy Scott, the great expert in all these matters of gunnery, was going to take supreme command of the anti-aircraft defence of London. It would he interesting to know whether he will be retained in that position, or whetlar, for some reason or another, he has been superseded or has resigned. if so, I think it is desirable that we should know tie reason; because so far as the country is concerned there is a general feeling that we have profited very much by his being in sole command. Moreover, it does not seem obvious why the War Office should take over the antiaircraft defence of London, especially as we are told that the War Office at present has a great deal more work than it can do.
THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE): My Lords, it has been decided that the War Office should take over the defence of London against hostile aircraft, and it is anticipated that the transfer will take place shortly. Sir Percy Scott is at present in charge of the gunnery defence of London, and, pending the transfer, he remains in his present position. The question of his continuance in the work will be one for consideration when the transfer takes place. The details of the transfer have not yet been concluded, and I am afraid I ant not able to give the noble Lord any further information at the present moment.

MIDWIVES(SCOTLAND) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
House adjourned at minutes past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.