§ LORD PARKERMy Lords, I desire to call attention to the problems which will arise after the war in relation to the o return of our citizen soldiers to industrial pursuits and the reorganisation of our industries on a peace footing. I desire to do this, not because these problems are not patent even to the most casual observer, but because we have learnt, or ought to have learnt, from the crisis through which we are now passing how heavily a nation may be handicapped if no one has taken the trouble to think out on its behalf beforehand the measures which ought to be taken to meet some particular emergency which may arise, or to mature the plans and organisation necessary for carrying those measures into effect.
I myself confidently anticipate that 610 history will acquit the generation to which I belong of having desired the war or having taken any active share in bringing it about; but so far as regards our want of preparedness for the war, whether from a military or financial or industrial standpoint, I am not sure of an equally favourable verdict. The truth is that as a nation we considered war on the present scale an impossibility or so remotely probable that its occurrence need not be considered at all Sincere lovers of peace ourselves, we attributed to other nations a love of peace equally sincere. Moreover, I think we have all lived in an era in which it has been assumed that the clash of private and Party interests is likely to produce national efficiency; we have talked largely of rights and very little of duties, and the need of organisation for national ends has been most imperfectly realised. But, my Lords, whatever excuse we may have for our unpreparedness for war, we shall surely have no excuse if we are similarly unprepared for peace. The war may have been improbable but peace is certain, however long delayed; and when peace conies we shall have to face a situation which, unless it be wisely and prudently handled, may entail on our posterity evils equal to, or even greater than, those entailed by the war itself.
Let us for a moment consider the several factors which determine the situation. First of all, we shall find that fully one quarter, possibly considerably more, of the industrial workers of this country have been withdrawn from industrial life or military purposes, and possibly that three quarters of a million more have been diverted from their ordinary pursuits to the production of munitions or other articles the demand for which will cease when the war is over. Most of the men so withdrawn will desire to return to industrial life, and many of them will find their places occupied by others, and, in large part I think, by women. Meanwhile large sections of our working classes have been earning wages on a scale unprecedented in their history, and the families of those who are serving at the Front. have been, by reason of liberal separation allowances, enjoying an affluence to which they had hitherto been strangers. But, my Lords, this scale of wages and these separation allowances will cease when the war is over. Moreover, the war has occasioned an unparalleled dislocation 611 of the industries of the country. Many of these industries have been brought to a standstill, and many have had to be converted for war purposes. If after the war these industries are to be reorganised time and capital will be required for the purpose. But, by reason of the great expenditure the war has entailed, capital is likely to be scarce, and, if obtainable at all, probably will only be obtained on onerous terms. Lastly, we shall have to face when the war is over a competition for the markets of the world keener than anything we have yet known in our history, and I am not sure that for the purposes of this competition we shall not in some respects be in a worse position even than Germany herself. It may probably be taken that we have during the war been exporting everything we could possibly export. Germany, on the other hand, has during the war had no export trade; and even if she has experienced a dislocation of industry similar to our own it is not improbable that she has been able to accumulate stores of merchandise wherewith to commence the new industrial campaign. These being some of the chief factors in the situation, I think it must be admitted that after the war we shall have to face dangers which, if met only by impromptu or opportunist measures, may lead to results disastrous to the country. It will be of ill augury for our future history if the war comes to be looked upon as a time of general prosperity, and peace as the beginning of our troubles.
Having enumerated the several factors which determine the situation, I desire to mention some of the problems which arise out of them. First of all we shall have, in order to avoid friction in the return of so large a body of men to their ordinary industrial pursuits, to constitute some Executive body in close touch with the men who require work on the one hand and with their possible employers on the other. Such a body will probably act most usefully through local committees, but before it can act to any useful purpose at all it is obvious that it will have to make itself acquainted with the relevant facts; and for that purpose it must ascertain and classify all who when the war is over will require industrial work, discover their qualifications, and also ascertain the districts in which work will be required; and, on the other hand, it will have to ascertain and classify the various industries 612 throughout the country which will require labour, and the extent to which that labour is likely to be required. Such a body will have at its disposal a great deal of useful information contained in the National Register, but this Register was compiled at so late a stage in the war that it will have to be supplemented at any rate as to the men who joined the Colours before August of this year from other sources. I do not know whether the War Office keeps a register of those who enlist in the Army. If so, this register may contain the information required. But at any rate with regard to ascertaining the industries throughout the country which may require labour after the war, it will be necessary to make extensive local inquiries. I believe the Garton Foundation has kept elaborate statistics of the effect of the war on industrial life and those statistics also will be useful.
Again, it will have to be remembered that, as happened after the Boer War, many of our soldiers may prefer to seek employment elsewhere than in the Mother Country. I myself hope that the number of these will not be large. The nation will have suffered sufficient loss in its manhood by the war itself and can ill afford further loss by emigration. But however this may be, I think it is our bounden duty to see that those who desire to emigrate shall do so of their own free will and not be compelled by the belief that their country, though willing to utilise their services to the full in war time, has no use at all for them in times of peace. I think also that we should, if possible, endeavour to secure that the services of those who emigrate, though lost to the Mother Country, are not lost to the Empire at large, and for that purpose should enter into communication with the Colonial Governments to see what opportunities may offer for employment in His Majesty's Dominions beyond the seas. Again, my Lords, with regard to the period which will be required for the re-organisation of our industries, it is not unlikely that during that period there will be considerable scarcity of employment, and we ought to take time by the forelock in devising methods of alleviating the distress, whether temporary or permanent, that is likely to arise from that cause.
But perhaps the most difficult of the problems which we shall have to face when the war is over is in relation to the 613 position of those women who have during the war been doing work which before the war was done by men. I myself do not think it likely that women, after having so clearly demonstrated their capacity to take part in industrial life, can be expected to return to the conditions which prevailed before the war. Nor do I think it would be really for the advantage of the nation that they should do so. It may be that in its women a nation has an asset of enormous industrial and economic value. But if women are to compete more than they have done heretofore with men various consequential difficulties are sure to arise. An increase of competition in the labour market must tend to reduce wages, and is almost sure to do so unless it be accompanied by a corresponding expansion in industries; and for this expansion, again, capital will be required. Moreover, men are not unlikely to resent the increased competition by women, more especially if, as appears to be now the case, employers are able by reason of the fact that women's labour is unorganised to impose on them a scale of wages lower than that enjoyed by men doing similar work. It appears to me that if women are to compete with men it must almost necessarily follow that women as well as men must be organised. And then the question will arise—and I think it a very important question—whether it is better policy to aim at giving them an organisation of their own, or whether we should aim at procuring their admission to existing trade unions. Possibly the latter might be the easier course; bat, as I shall presently suggest, existing labour organisations contain elements which may be extremely inimical to our success in the competition for the markets of the world which is sure to follow the war; and if it, were possible to organise women on slightly different lines avoiding those elements, and at the same time to secure to them equal advantages with men as to the rates of wages and otherwise, the experiment might be well worth while.
If we pass from these problems to those more directly connected with industrial reorganisation large questions of general policy at once arise—questions which it may be undesirable to discuss in public, at any rate at present. I should, however, like to refer your Lordships to two subjects which appear to me to be of considerable importance. The first arises in this way. 614 We have learned during the war that even if we retain complete control of the seas dependence on foreign sources for such things as munitions or the necessaries of life is not without its danger. In this country it is obvious that all imports must be paid for in exports or services, and while the war has largely increased a demand for imports it has seriously diminished our, power either of producing goods for export or rendering the services to which I have alluded. Our financial weakness at the present moment depends on this cause, just as in Germany her financial strength consists in her independence, if indeed she be independent, of outside forces for munitions and the necessaries of life. Are we or are we not, in reorganising our industries, to take these matters into account? And if we are to remain so largely dependent on outside sources for munitions and the needs of war, for many of the things indispensable to our industries, and for the necessaries of life, would it or would it not be wiser to be dependent on His Majesty's Overseas Dominions rather than on foreign nations? In considering questions such as these we should remember that it is useless to desire a particular end unless we are prepared to adopt the necessary means. If we are to start in this country industries which do not exist or keep alive here industries which probably would perish under a system of complete Free Trade, it is obvious that we must be prepared to sacrifice some of the advantages which Free Trade brings. If this, however, be our policy, we shall have further to consider how we may avoid in this country the political difficulties and abuses which are so often incident to a financial system in which a tariff plays a large part.
The second point that I desire to mention is this. We are about to embark, as I said before, on strenuous competition for the markets of the world. We ought to set our house in order and prepare for the campaign. In considering what particularly we ought to do we have to remember, in the first place, certain quite elementary principles. Suppose that we have competing goods on a market, goods of equal quality and equally suitable for the market in which they are offered. What is it which determines success in the competition? It must necessarily be the price at which they can be sold, and price in the long run must depend upon cost of 615 production. Cost of production, so far as it relates to the cost of labour which is one of the largest items in the cost of production, can only be reduced in two ways. It may be reduced by a reduction of wages, and it may be reduced by an increase in the efficiency of work I do not think that anybody in this country would desire to reduce wages below the scale which prevailed at the commencement of the war. It is obvious that the welfare of the nation largely depends upon the wage-earning classes receiving a wage as high as possible. Not only is this the only way in which we can secure a contented and healthy people, but it is really for the advantage of our industries. Every rise in wages increases the spending power of the nation, and it creates an increased demand for the goods by the production and sale of which our industries thrive.
We come then to this, that the only method of decreasing the cost of production in this respect is by increasing the efficiency of labour, and I think the efficiency of labour can only be increased in three possible ways. In the first place, it can be increased by the introduction of new and more adequate machinery, of new and more perfect industrial processes, and for this purpose we ought as far as possible to encourage invention, and not only to encourage invention but to take the necessary means to bring inventions into use at the earliest possible moment. I believe that historically and also judicially the encouragement of industries lies at the root of our Patent Law, but I am not at all sure that our Patent Law as at present constituted does either encourage the inventor or secure that inventions may be brought into use at the earliest possible moment. It appears to me that a wise thing to do at present during the dislocation which the war is occasioning would be to make a thorough investigation into the working of our Patent. Laws and devise means of so revising them that they may effect the purpose for which alone there is any justification for them.
The second way in which we might increase the efficiency of labour appears to me to be a more perfect technical training for our workmen. I do not intend to enlarge on this point, for I think that everybody will admit that in the matter of technical instruction this nation is behind the times. The third way of 616 increasing the efficiency of labour appears to me to be in the removal of all artificial restrictions on output. There is no doubt that the trade unions have adopted a contrary policy. Their rules and regulations contain many provisions which tend to decrease output. These rules and regulations have, it is true, been suspended for the period of the war, but only on the understanding that they shall revive and remain in full force when the war is over, and this understanding must, of course, be scrupulously observed. At the same time it appears to me to be apparent that rules and regulations which are disastrous in time of war must in the long run be equally disastrous in time of peace. There can be no doubt that they will seriously handicap this nation in its competition for world markets. I think that probably the Labour leaders in this country are fully aware of the truth of what. I say. Why is it, then, that among trade unionists such great store is set on these restrictions? It is, I think, because they have the firmrooted and in many cases well-founded conviction that their removal might lead to increased profit on the part of their employers but certainly would not benefit themselves. It ought not to be beyond the wit of man to devise some scheme—whether it be founded upon profit-sharing or some other principle; a scheme acceptable to employers and workmen alike—whereby every increase in the efficiency of labour would be accompanied by a corresponding increase in wages, and would not inure solely for the benefit of employers. When the war is over we shall be entering a new stage in our history. Most things will, I think, be changed. If the beginning of this new period in our history be coincident with a permanent peace between Capital and Labour even the war itself may have been worth while.
I hope I have made out a prima facie case for inquiry into these important matters. It only remains to ask His Majesty's Government as to what course had better be pursued. I have suggested in the Notice which appears on the Paper that a Joint Committee of the two Houses should be appointed to consider and report. I was led to this suggestion from the following considerations. The war has no doubt entailed upon every Government Department an enormous amount of extra work. Every Minister and every Departmental Head is probably now doing the 617 work of more than two men. At the same time the war has brought to your Lordships and to members of the other House an excess of leisure. Leisure in times like these is a doubtful blessing. Every one wants to do useful work, and if he cannot find it to do is apt to become over-anxious and perhaps over-critical. Surely there are in both Houses men of whose energy and ability the Government might avail themselves. But a Joint Committee of the two Houses is not the only possible course. It would be possible as an alternative to appoint a Departmental Committee of, say, the Board of Trade, with a considerable number of non-official members; or, still better, to appoint a Committee of Imperial Reorganisation framed on the lines of the Committe of Imperial Defence. Either such body could map out the various subjects requiring inquiry, and could refer them singly or in groups to sub-committees appointed for the purpose. But whatever body be appointed to deal with the matters to which I have referred, I am not without hope that if all prejudices and Party affections be laid aside it may arrive at results and devise measures which shall secure to our children's children benefits which may in some degree compensate them for the burdens which the war will entail upon them.
THE MARQUEES OF CREWEMy Lords, I am unwilling to intervene so early in the debate because I hope that other noble Lords will state their views on this supremely important subject, but I am unfortunately called away on an important engagement in a comparatively short time and I shall therefore venture to say a word at once upon the noble and learned Lord's speech. I am certain that we all listened with deep interest to his wide and at the same time closely-reasoned review of the conditions which will be brought about in our industrial affairs, and, indeed, in the life of the whole nation, by the conclusion of the war and the demobilisation of the forces. The noble and learned Lord began by drawing a somewhat melancholy picture of the "fool's paradise" in which we had all been living before the outbreak of the war. I will not attempt to dispute, at any rate in many respects, the accuracy of his criticism. But he is, I am sure, in conformity with the feeling of the whole House when he added that at any rate we must not be caught napping by peace, and that so far as possible we must, make 618 all possible preparations for the social changes which are bound to follow the conclusion of the war.
The first point that comes to mind in this matter is, of course, the actual demobilisation of the forces and the measures which will have to be taken in view of the return to civil life of such an enormous number of men in a proportion altogether foreign to anything which has happened before in the history of this country. So far as the particular question of the demobilisation of the forces is concerned, for inure than a year now that matter has been closely inquired into by competent members of the Civil Service; and without attempting to describe in any detail the course of their deliberation or its results, I may say that the general lines of what will have to be done in the direction of making it easy for men either to go back to employment or to find fresh employment have been the subject of close examination by those of whom I have spoken. One branch of this question is, of course, connected with the possible return to or arrival on the land of a certain number of those who have been serving. There has been a Special Committee dealing with this subject under the ægis of the Board of Agriculture, and I am informed that it is likely to issue a Report.—I do not know whether it will be a Final Report—before Christmas. At any rate that Report will, I am certain, contain some information of great value to us all. Then there is the further and most important question from the national point of view of the care of disabled soldiers. Of that we heard much in this House recently in connection with the Naval and Military Pensions Bill and I hope a scheme has been framed, or soon will be framed, to meet that particular side of the subject, in which, of course, the whole country takes a peculiarly sympathetic interest.
Then the noble and learned Lord dealt with that exceedingly difficult branch of the subject which is concerned with the labour problems that will have to be faced in connection with demobilisation. He touched on one or two specific points of great interest. He said—and I agree with him—that in the particular circumstances which we have to face the remedy of emigration, if it be a remedy, must be regarded as at best a doubtful boon. We do not wish to see more of our manhood leaving the country after the terrible 619 depletion that it has sustained than is absolutely necessary. At the same time I entirely agree that there may be, and indeed almost must be, some cases where men will wish to emigrate, all the more after the close personal connection into which some of them will have been brought with their fellow-soldiers from the Overseas Dominions. I am in full accord with the noble and learned Lord when he says that we ought to act in concert with the Governments of the various Dominions in this matter, in order to see that a close relation still continues to exist between these men and ourselves, and that even if some of them go they do not altogether cut themselves oft from the old country.
The noble and learned Lord indicated other matters which in his opinion would have to be inquired into. One subject that he mentioned was the dependence in which we have found ourselves upon other countries for the supply of munitions for the war and also in the general supplies for the support of our people; and he indicated very truly the particular financial difficulty which has arisen and which is so well known to us all, due to the unusual but necessarily vast excess of imports under existing conditions. I think it is clear that with these islands populated as they are it is altogether impossible to suppose that we can ever be a self-supporting country. Nor do I think it would meet the wishes of our fellow-citizens if we were to aim at the establishment of works parallel in character to those of Messrs. Krupp, which would conceivably render us self-supporting in the matter of military munitions. But I am far from disagreeing with the noble and learned. Lord when he says that these matters will have to be carefully looked into and considered, and whenever they become the subject of more than Departmental examination that is no doubt one side of the question which will have to be borne in mind. I leave it now because I do not wish to get upon any delicate or difficult ground which is obviously near at hand when one begins to discuss these particular questions, closely connected as they are with the controversy between Free Trade and Protection, which has been before the country for so long.
The increased efficiency of labour, of which the noble and learned Lord spoke, is also, of course, a subject of the very first magnitude. Speaking generally and apart 620 from the special aspects to which he alluded, I think we may say that this country is coming to the conviction that the general efficiency of labour is promoted in all industries by the payment of good wages and that it is assisted by the use of moderate hours. The noble and learned Lord mentioned one or two specific matters in this connection.I was impressed—although I am not entitled to express an opinion on the subject—with his observations upon a matter in which he is an expert, namely, the need for the revision of our Patent Laws; and I am quite certain that my learned friends here and the Government will pay due attention to what fell from the noble and learned Lord in that connection. He also spoke in very moderate and, if he will allow me to say so, wise terms upon the difficult question of trade union restrictions. Those restrictions, as he truly pointed out, do in many instances interfere with the efficiency of labour; and it has been shown during the progress of the war that when men feel that they are labouring for the country they are willing to reduce and in some cases to abandon altogether those restrictions. They have been jealously adhered to, as we know, on the ground that they are necessary for the self-protection of the workers, and, as the noble and learned Lord pointed out, that instinct of self-protection has been mainly founded on the belief that if more is produced it only goes into the pockets of somebody else who does not appear specially to deserve that extra bonus on his capital, whereas the worker may not necessarily derive any advantage from it whatever. The problem—the intense difficulty of it we all admit—is one which I fully agree is worthy of close and continued examination.
Besides the question of the demobilisation of the forces there is, of course, the kindred though different question of the demobilisation of the war industries which will very soon after the conclusion of the war throw upon the labour market a great mass of labour, some of it skilled, but a considerable part of it very partially skilled or unskilled, for which openings will have to be found. The noble and learned Lord also stated with truth that there is then the whole question of women's employment, what are the proper industries in which women may engage—not under the stress of war, when such questions as possible injury to health and possible damage to child-bearing may be passed 621 over for the time being, but as a regular permanent practice of the nation—what are the limitations which ought to be set upon women's employment. That is a branch of the subject which is of extreme complexity and difficulty, made more complex, as the noble and learned Lord pointed out, by certain difficulties in the relations between male and female labour, and it will require handling not only with the greatest sympathy but also with knowledge and the utmost care.
It is obvious that all these matters open up a vista of possible controversy. Hardly one of the questions upon which the noble and learned Lord touched is free from the possibility either of reviving ancient controversies in an acute form or of exciting new ones hardly less violent. It is quite evident, knowing as we do that people hold such diverse opinions on the proper road of social progress, that at a public inquiry they would be unable altogether to resist the charm of advocating their general opinions, whether they be Collectivists or Individualists, in relation to these particular problems. There will always be some, people of both knowledge and ability, who will come forward with a particular social panacea to be applied to all these separate problems. That is just as true of trade questions as it is of labour questions. Consequently so far it has been desired to avoid public discussion of these matters. I have already stated that much has been done in the preparation of materials for facilitating the return of soldiers to civil life. That has been done departmentally, and the results, although ready for submission, have not yet been submitted to any body.
As regards the labour side of the question, a great deal of work has already been done by the Board of Trade in the collection of material to be put to a similar purpose when the time comes. There are somewhere about three million men and women now engaged upon war work, and it is therefore easy to see what the magnitude of the problem is and the multiplicity of the questions which have to be faced. The Board of Trade have also with the help of skilled financial advice from outside been endeavouring to put together the necessary material for considering commercial and financial problems of the character of which the noble and learned Lord spoke. Obviously questions of policy are so much involved in the consideration 622 of these matters that it is impossible for a Government Department to do anything more than the mere collection of material, and the question now arises, as a good deal of material is already prepared, what further steps ought to be taken for the purpose of getting that material into some kind of shape. We entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord that this consideration ought not to be postponed. Although few of us, I imagine, suppose that the conclusion of the war will be speedy or that it be sudden, yet at the same time it is impossible to be too well prepared for the conditions which will begin to arise whenever it comes.
The original proposition of the noble and learned Lord was the appointment of a Joint Committee of both Houses, and I have no doubt that there is much to be said for such a form of inquiry. Greatly occupied though members of both Houses are in one form or another on work connected with the war, I should hesitate to say that it was not possible, though I do not believe it would be easy, to collect a Joint Committee of sufficient status and experience to satisfy public opinion in this matter. But we confess that as matters now stand we are not prepared to institute a public discussion of all these questions, mainly on the ground which I have stated—that almost all of them are closely concerned with different matters of controversy, and it would be impossible to suppose that in the great bulk of evidence which would be given before such a Committee a large part would not be given rather with the idea of airing the general views of the witnesses in various social directions than with the hope of assisting the actual deliberations of the Committee. I confess therefore that I for one, and I think my colleagues so far as I know would all take the same view, rather shudder at the idea of the submission of these subjects to a discussion of a public body at this moment.
I think the other suggestion of my noble and learned friend is of a more hopeful character—that of the appointment of a body to examine the question of Imperial reorganisation as a whole and working largely through sub-committees with the ultimate view, no doubt, of conducting many of the necessary operations through local committees or bodies all over the country. I am not in a position at this moment to speak with any certainty, but 623 what I hope is that before long something of this kind will be instituted. I can assure the noble and learned Lord that we are every whit as convinced as he is of the necessity in this matter of action as prompt as is compatible with the examination of a vast amount of material relating to a large number of subjects; and I need hardly say, in conclusion, that I am able that the noble and learned Lord has brought the matter before the House in the way that he has, because there is nothing, as I believe, which is more deserving of the careful consideration of men holding whatever views they may on political or social subjects.
§ VISCOUNT HALDANEMy Lords, I think that my noble and learned friend is to be congratulated not only on having brought this matter forward but on the fashion in which he has laid it before the House. He spoke with moderation and with knowledge, both of them valuable and co-ordinate qualities in speech, and he elicited from my noble friend who leads the House a speech the conclusion of which was very interesting. During the delivery of both speeches I was struck with one defect, a defect which was remedied to some extent in the speech of my noble friend who has just sat down, Lord Parker brought forward a tremendous case. He covered the ground of national education, technical education anyhow; the Patent Laws; Imperial preference; large questions connected with our military organisation, and other industrial topics connected with trade unions of the most extensive and also controversial type. And his suggestion at the end was that there should be a reference to a Joint Committee of the two Houses—that was one of his alternatives—to consider these matters.
My first observation is that these matters are of a magnitude far beyond the scope of any Committee, whether of the two Houses or drawn from whatever source. My second observation is that, after thirty years spent in the service of Parliament, I can conceive no body from which one could expect less than a Joint Committee of the two Houses, consisting, be it observed, of the residual members not occupied in other things. You would branch out into enormously controversial subjects, and you would get no further forward. Then my noble and learned friend made another 624 suggestion which I think is much more hopeful. He said "Let us have a body of a more specialised kind, something akin to the Committee of Imperial Defence, which should examine these things and report on them"; and in the conclusion of his speech the Leader of the House said something which at any rate encourages one to hope that this is an idea which commends itself to the Government. Speaking for myself, I think that is a much more hopeful way of approaching this problem. There is no denying its magnitude. Peace will come and with it a set of problems which, I venture to prophesy, will find us still less prepared—and I say it deliberately—than we were for the war which came upon us. After all, the Committee of Imperial Defence of which my noble friend spoke had been doing years of work preparing us for war, and had produced as the result of its labours a War-Book which was of the utmost value in telling every Department of State what it had to do when war broke out. Even the telegrams were ready; all the details were prepared, and the Committee of Imperial Defence furnished an example which we may well bear in mind in view of the problems which are confronting us.
What I should like to see is a Peace-Book of the same kind, and I should like to see it prepared in much the same way. I should like to see the best Committee or Royal Commission that could be got together set to work to consider the problems which will be on us when peace comes—I will allude to them in a moment—and to work out something like a Peace-Book which would tell each Department of the State, each body of employers of labour, and the municipalities just what they may expect to have to do when peace comes and how to set about it. I say that that is just as important as it was to have a War-Book at the beginning of the war. I want to see a Peace-Book, and there is only one way of preparing it and that is in the same way as the War-Book was prepared. Let a Committee of experts be set to work, and do not be afraid of choosing people who are interested in the special subjects with which we have to deal. I know it is the fashion to say, "We cannot have So-and-So and So-and-So because they are interested in the Exchanges with America," or some other subject which it is suggested may make 625 their duty and interests clash. In days like these people are only too able to give their utmost exertions and their best abilities to the service of the State regardless of whether their interests suffer or not, and we should not pass over the most competent men because it is supposed they have interests in the subject which may deflect their judgment. It is only from such people that you will get the guidance you want.
I quite agree with my noble friend that if we have a Committee of this kind it must be a Committee for distributing the inquiry and setting up sub-committees to carry it out. You want General Staff work in peace just as in war when you have to confront an emergency of this kind, and you will have to pick the best experts to guide you. Having said that, it is obvious to my mind that the scope of the inquiry and the field it covers must be much narrower than that contemplated by my noble and learned friend who opened this discussion. He seemed to think that you could settle a vast number of controversial questions by keeping them away from Parliament and referring them to a body of this kind. I can assure him that, at any rate for another hundred years, it is useless to expect the British nation to cease to be a political nation. Parliament will go on discussing all these matters and resorting to those things which my noble friend deprecates as interfering with the scientific consideration of great subjects. That is a fact you have to accept, and it is no use looking away from it. Those who have the most experience attach not the least importance to that, because they know it is there, and they know it is a thing which, after all, is only carried to a limited extent. You have always the opportunity of making efficient inquiry provided you do not allow the field of inquiry to be spoiled by dragging in controversial topics. I should deprecate very much referring to any Committee or Commission the question of our trade with the Dominions. Such trade is the subject of an inquiry by a Royal Commission which is now sitting and which has produced many volumes of evidence, and I doubt if at the end we shall do more than bring a certain amount of material to bear on the consideration of the subject by the processes of Parliament. I am certain of this, that the only people who will settle the question of Dominion trade 626 are the Colonial Governments in consultation with the Imperial Government in the Imperial Conferences and the Imperial Parliament following on the top of it. I am sure that you will get very little guidance by referring it to a Select Committee.
But when you come to such a question as demobilisation, there you get to something of a very different kind. The noble Marquess who leads the House told us that this was being inquired into departmentally. It is very valuable that the War Office or the Board of Trade should inquire into these things, but I am certain that the topic is far too big a one for any merely departmental inquiry. You have to call to your assistance the employers of labour, and you have to deal with a variety of matters which go beyond the scope of any particular Department. I feel that the question of the re-employment of the mass of men coming back from the war is one of the most thorny and perplexing subjects with which we have to deal, and I should be sorry to gather from the noble Marquess that it is left merely to departmental consideration. I think that here you want to bring the best inquiry to bear that you can and the most expert knowledge drawn from all sorts of sources.
The noble Marquess spoke of two or three other things which he said were being investigated. The question of the land, he said, was being inquired into by the Board of Agriculture. Well, that is all to the good. But you cannot inquire into the question of the land in isolation from the other subjects. The noble Marquess spoke of the case of disabled soldiers as another subject which is engaging the attention of the Government. I think it is vital, if any good is to be done by the Government plan, that all these things should be considered together and with some sense of unity. I do not believe any method will be satisfactory unless it is one which does something towards appointing a single body, and a body of picked experts, who shall consider the lines of the inquiry together and select the sub-committees and the sub-inquiries which are to be made for the purpose of working out the details. It is not one subject; it is twenty subjects. I do not think such an inquiry can throw very much light upon the general question of women employment, for instance, but it can throw light on the problem of giving guidance to employers as to how to deal with 627 the women who are in their employment when those who are serving in the field come back after the war. I do not believe much will be done by such a Committee in regard to the Patent Law; that is too large and too separate a subject.
Nor in regard to technical education. What we have to contend against in this matter is not only the indifference, but, I will add, the stupidity of our nation. We are a nation which has not been neglectful so far as individuals have been concerned; the difficulty has been that at the back we have had a stupid nation on this subject of education. The public and Parliament are indifferent to it. No one is more indifferent than your Lordships' House, unless, if it be possible, it is the other House of Parliament. It is almost impossible to awaken any real interest upon this great question, which I entirely agree—I am not saying it here for the first time—is going to lie at the very root of our survival as an Empire when the time comes. No Royal Commission will give you that; it turns upon the national state itself, and the national mind. But if it is possible to take up an inquiry which will give us a Peace-Book parallel to the War-Book which we had at the commencement of the war, a volume which will instruct all those concerned as to how to face the problems which will confront them when the war comes to an end, then I think something valuable will have been accomplished. I think it is all to the good that my noble and learned friend raised this debate, and I welcome the hint given by the noble Marquess.
One appeal I will make to the Government in conclusion. It is that they should take this discussion seriously. It is not enough to talk about this matter. It has to be tackled; it has to be done pretty thoroughly, and it will require a good deal of courage and energy. The Departments will say each of them, "We can do the work admirably." They cannot do the work admirably. It is too big for them. Just as the War Book came about by calling all the bodies together, so with this campaign the Government will have to call all sorts of experts into conference and adjust a variety of points of view without which you will not have success. Therefore if it be possible for the Government to afford us any more definite assurance than the noble Marquess gave us about the creation of some body which will work 628 on those lines, I, for one, should welcome the assurance, and it would give me considerable relief as to the prospect for the future.
THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTERMy Lords, I should like to add a word of congratulation and thanks to the noble and learned Lord for having brought this subject before the House. The words "after the war" are sometimes used to introduce matters about which it is far better that we should at present hold our tongues, but that is very far from being the case with regard to the subjects upon which the noble and learned Lord has touched. Here it is plain that we need to review beforehand our resources, to bring into the consideration of the problem, if I may use the term, our munitions of thought. A great deal, as the noble and learned Viscount said, may be done by what has been adumbrated by the Government, and, no doubt, behind the scenes by smaller works of preparation such as the noble Marquess has told us are going on. I cannot help thinking that though these things may have limited effect, yet anything which gives a little push to public opinion in the country to recognise that with the relief which the end of the war will bring there will be the opening of questions, and possibly controversies, which will carry in them as much anxiety as the war—anything which gives a push to the opinion of different classes in that direction seems to me to be altogether to the good.
I suppose there must be in many of our minds a parallelism between what has happened and what might happen. I mean that we have felt that we drifted through a period of unacknowledged or partly unacknowledged controversy between nations towards the abyss into which at last we plunged. In different ways we anticipated or feared that plunge, but we felt powerless to resist it. And I suppose the reason why it was not resisted and the terrible consequence was not averted was that among the nations concerned there was not such a moral force of determination that the thing should not occur as would have made it impossible. It must have occurred to many who think about our home concerns that in more than one direction—there was the famous case of almost Civil War, and the case as to the relation between those who are engaged in different ways in industry—there may be a danger of the same kind; 629 that is to say, there is a difference of view, a contention of interests, in which both sides go on repeating their claims and taking up their positions, and it would sometimes appear that it is probable that something in the nature of a collision, a catastrophe, must occur, that we are in fact adrift in that direction.
Now what is there to avert this? The noble Viscount who has just sat down has, after his manner, for which we all owe him much, laid great stress on the educational factor. He has said to us, as he has said before to our advantage, You must think, and "you must get the nation to think." I am not sure whether he will quarrel with me, or think that I am doing more than speaking of another factor equally important, when I say that you must address yourselves also to the moral sense of the nation. We hope that out of the losses and the chivalry alike of the time through which we are passing there will come a great quickening of the sense of moral responsibility through all classes and determination to apply to the solution of difficult questions that kind of force which alone can avert the fatal collision that may occur. I do not suppose that any of us are doubtful that a real explosion, a controversy and collision, between different classes of this nation, if it came to pass, would be a greater evil to us even than that through which we are now passing of international war. Therefore I cannot help thinking that if the nation is moved to think, to consider really the bearings of things, it will take-to heart something like that parallelism between the two cases which I have ventured to indicate and get into itself that feeling that the better life of the nation must gain strength to be master of itself. And then when, either by the opposition of logic or by the opposition of the interests of classes and so on, there appears to be nothing but a kind of drift towards calamity, the nation will have gained something new in its body from the terrible influence of the war if it is able to say "This shall not be, because we will meet each other with something of a higher spirit, a spirit of greater devotion to the common weal and a determination that our time shall mark the improvement upon the time which went before." Thus the nation may by the application of its own conscience, its own determination, and its own unity solve these great problems.
§ VISCOUNT BRYCEMy Lords, I should like to join with the right rev. Prelate in expressing cordial thanks to the noble and learned Lord for calling the attention of the House and the country to the gravity and the multiplicity of the problems which will come upon us as soon as the war reaches its end. If that is generally admitted, I think we must admit also the singularly fair and thoughtful spirit in which the noble and learned Lord raised these different questions.
The point upon which discussion seems to have turned is what is the best method of giving effect to the suggestion for an inquiry into these subjects. There were really so many matters touched upon by the noble and learned Lord that I find it hard to think that we could get any Committee or any Commission which would be competent to deal with special knowledge and wide outlook with them all. I agree with what was said by the noble Viscount (Lord Haldane) that a Joint Committee of the two Houses would seem to be in some ways specially disqualified, because many of the questions are controversial. It is a habit at any rate in another place to import the spirit of political controversy into economic questions. Whether this House would rise above an atmosphere of that kind it is not for me to say, but certainly in the other House it is very seldom that Members who are serving upon a Committee in which controversial questions arise are able entirely to divest themselves of the political results of the inquiry on which they are engaged.
It must be observed also that some of the questions suggested by the noble and learned Lord cannot really be approached until we know what the end of the war may be. The war may end in more than one way, and it is very largely upon the end of the war and the treaties which will be made then that some of the questions will depend. Take the question of armaments. We do not know whether at the end of the war it will be necessary for the country to maintain such enormous armaments as are being maintained and as will have to be maintained if the end of the war is not conclusive. There are various other questions as to which the end of the war will affect the course which any inquiry of the kind would take. Again, at this stage to bring in such questions as those 631 of tariffs would tend rather to deflect the inquiry from those uncontroversial lines upon which it ought to proceed if it is going to be profitable.
But there is one topic winch is uncontroversial and must arise as a practical issue and which is of the utmost gravity, and that is the question of the restoration of industrial conditions on what may be called the demobilisation of those who are now engaged in war, and the new conditions due, among other things, to the much larger employment of women. We have that question to face, and it is, and I hope will remain, in the main an uncontroversial question, which can be approached without the bringing in of actual political issues. And, moreover, it is a question which lies pretty compact. It is primarily an economic question. It is a question on which the opinions of employers of labour and of the representatives of labour are of the first importance; it is also a question upon which skilled economists who have observed similar phenomena in other countries, although never upon any scale so large as that which we may expect now, would be able to offer an opinion. Perhaps what the noble Marquess told us is being done by the Board of Trade would go very far towards the conduct of such an inquiry. They are accumulating materials, and those materials will no doubt. include not only figures as to industries and as to the amount of labour likely to be liberated but also the opinions of those who have thought, upon the subject and possibly in that way know what to provide.
If there are to be Committees the smaller those Committees are the better. It is far more easy to have a practical and useful discussion if the Committee does not exceed seven or nine persons than if an attempt is made to represent every possible point, of view. If a small Trade Committee of that kind could take up the material which the Board of Trade is collecting and work it out in such a way as to show what, are the points that are fairly well-established, what are the points which are more doubtful, and then help the country to think about the matter by giving it the outlines along which its thought ought to proceed and suggesting beforehand the difficulties chiefly likely to arise and chiefly to be met, then I think a very considerable service might be rendered. What we really want is to 632 address our thoughts by anticipation to these questions. It was truly said by the noble Viscount that our fault has been not to think enough, and I think we shall all agree with what was put with so much force and emotional power by the right rev. Prelate when he said that we ought to look upon this question as one which appeals to our moral sense and in the attempt to solve which moral feeling must be called into play. That is quite true. That is to supply the motive force.
But we also want steady hard thinking. We want to apply our minds beforehand constantly and steadily to these questions, and not let them come upon us, as questions generally come upon us, unprepared. It was well said of Napoleon Bonaparte that the thing which distinguished him most from other men was his power of concentrating his mind beforehand upon the questions that would arise and so thinking them out that when the emergency arrived it found him ready to meet it. That, of course, is true also of nations, and if we are to learn a lesson from this war it is the necessity of thinking beforehand and not being taken by surprise and obliged to extemporise on imperfect thinking. I think the noble and learned Lord has rendered a service in helping us and the country to see the gravity of the crisis that is coming and endeavouring to get us to prepare to meet that crisis.
§ THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD NEWTON)My Lords, perhaps it will be thought advisable that I should say a word or two with regard to the proposals which the War Office have in mind with regard to the difficulties that will be created when demobilisation takes place. As I think was indicated by my noble friend the Leader of the House, this is a question which has been under consideration for a long time; and unless my memory has betrayed me I rather think that a long time ago, long before the present Government was formed, an undertaking was given that the Army should not be suddenly disbanded and a vast mass of men thrown upon the labour market, but that the process would be of a gradual nature. The War Office, I understand, has been in close consultation with the Board of Trade with regard to this particular question for a long time, and I believe I am correct in stating that whatever proposals are arrived at it has always been in view that they 633 should be submitted to a Committee or tribunal of some kind. Among the provisions which it is proposed to make for soldiers relieved from service with the Colours at the termination of the war are the following. These, I should like to point out, are only some of the provisions winch are in contemplation. Those which am authorised to state to-day- are—A working, furlough on the usual conditions as to full pay and allowances for a period of four weeks, during which separation allowances would continue to be paid; travelling warrants from the place of disbandment to the home district; money gratuities for services on scales hereafter to be fixed. It is to be presumed that this scale will be determined by Parliament. Then there will be an insurance Policy against unemployment valid for one year, finally, assistance in finding employment. I only desire to add that there are three agencies in existence which may materially assist with regard to the last point—namely, the machinery of Unemployment Insurance, the existence of the Territorial Force Associations, and, more important than all, the Labour Exchanges. None of these agencies was in operation at the conclusion of the south African campaign, and it is to be hoped that they will prove of great value in the future. That, my Lords, is all that I am authorised to state at the present moment, but I trust that these assurances will satisfy the noble and learned Lord to a certain extent.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, my noble friend (Lord Newton) has said enough in regard to what is being done by the Department which he represents in this House to show that, so far as the more restricted aspects of the case are concerned, the War Office is not losing sight of the important questions with which it will have to deal when this war comes to an end. I desire to say a word with regard to the much wider problem with which the noble and learned Lord dealt in a speech which arrested the attention of the House and which has been referred to by subsequent speakers in language which I am sure must have been agreeable to him. Nobody will deny that these immense problems will await solution, and it will be the duty of the Government of the day to deal with them. My noble friend Lord Crewe alluded to the steps which are already being taken 634 in the different Departments concerned to deal with particular branches of this manifold question, and he also, I think, gave to your Lordships a sufficient indication as to the kind of lines upon which His Majesty's Government are disposed to work in dealing with the wider aspects of the case.
I am bound to say that I agreed with what was said by the noble and learned Viscount (Lord Haldane) as to the form which an inquiry of this sort might take. I am not attracted by the proposal that it should be referred to a Joint Committee of the two Houses of Parliament. I am never quite inclined to repose absolute confidence in the manner in which these Parliamentary Committees are composed. The business generally is regarded as one which concerns the Whips a good deal, and I am not at all sure that investigations carried on by composite bodies of this kind are always of the nature which would be best fitted to ensure the general confidence of the country. I believe that the kind of investigation which the noble and learned Lord (Lord Parker) has in mind would go far beyond the scope of any Parliamentary Committee and any one body however composed. I think, therefore, that my noble friend Lord Crewe was upon sound ground when he suggested that the proper mode of carrying out an investigation of this kind was to appoint a small central body, and then in connection with that to have subordinate inquiries which might indeed be multiplied in number as events developed.
There are, of course, some branches of the problem which obviously would require to be dealt with in some such manner as this. There is the problem of demobilisation. That will be an enormous problem, and we have to remember that it concerns not only the vast number of men, now counted by millions, who are serving with the Colours, but it concerns all the great industries which are now employed in connection with the war and which, when the war is over, will require to have their activity diverted into other channels. Apart from those, there will be the question of woman labour. I have had in the course of an inquiry with which I am connected some opportunity of considering this question of the substitution of the labour of women for the labour of men, and I believe that a great deal can be done 635 in that direction. We are only at the beginning, but so far the indications are hopeful, and I feel little doubt that if the war is prolonged we shall find a very large number of women occupied in various industries. But I should be rather sorry to contemplate the possibility of these women at the end of the war having to be provided with other industrial work in lieu of that which they are now doing in different departments. In time of war it is quite right that every one, man or woman, who can do something for the State should be called upon to do it, however hard and laborious the work may be; but I own that in time of peace I should be very sorry to contemplate the possibility of a great number of women who are now taken away from their home duties and their home life being retained permanently as workers in different industries. The place of the English woman, particularly if she is a wife and mother, is in her own home, and I should be sorry to see any change in our social arrangements which would put an end to that state of things. As to disabled men, my noble friend who leads the House was able to say that a scheme was already under consideration for dealing with that subject, and I think he said the same in regard to the question of finding employment for soldiers on the land and also in regard to emigration—a problem, by the way, which requires extremely careful handling, for it by no means follows that because a man is a good soldier lie is therefore likely to make a good emigrant.
I will only say one word in conclusion, and that is in reference to the striking remarks which were made by the right 636 rev. Prelate. He said something as to the spirit in which these social problems might be approached at the end of the war. I share with him the hope that when that time comes we may find that one effect of the war has been a great bringing together of classes and a burying of some of the old antagonisms by which they have been divided. But, my Lords, I feel sure that if that result is to happen it will not be brought about by Parliamentary Committees or Royal Commissions or investigations of any kind. It will rather result from the better feeling which I, for one, look forward confidently to seeing established, the better feeling which will be the result of common sacrifices, the kind of Freemasonry that unites people who are bound together by the recollection of common losses; and I do not believe that any-thing will produce that better feeling except the spontaneous movement of thought which will arise from those causes and not from any external pressure that can be applied.
§ LORD PARKERMy Lords, I desire to thank the House for the way in which they have received the Motion standing in my name, and also to say, with regard to the suggestions and hopes which His Majesty's Government held out of the appointment of some body to see to these matters, that I am for the present quite content. I cannot, having had no experience of them, undertake to defend Joint Committees of the two Houses from the imputations which have been made against them.
§ House adjourned at Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, Eleven o'clock