§ *LORD LATYMER rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will appoint a Committee to inquire into the status of the Royal Marines in His Majesty's Forces and to make such recommendations as may appear necessary.
§ The noble Lord said: I must apologise as a civilian for addressing your Lordships upon a naval or military matter—I am not quite sure in which category this question comes—but I am representing those who are not able to speak for themselves. I may be told that perhaps this is not an opportune moment at which to bring forward such a subject. With that suggestion I could not agree, because I think it is only at such times as these that the country takes an adequate interest in naval and military affairs. I venture to say that the position of the Royal Marines is almost an intolerable one. Many examples could be given of their subjection to rules and customs to which no other part of His Majesty's Service is subjected. As I am anxious not to detain the House unduly, I will bring forward only two examples, but they are typical ones. It may seem almost incredible but it is the fact that Royal Marine officers were once deprived of their right of discipline over their own men. This took place when they were fighting in Egypt, and all punishments were given by captains in the Navy who had to come all the way from Alexandria. It is equally incredible but also a fact that the Marines were, during the same period, deprived of their artillery. Their field guns and their mules were taken away from them and given to the Bluejackets, with the result that at General McNeil's Zareeba, at the most critical moment, the guns jammed, because the Bluejackets had not been used to working them. Surely a force that is liable to such indignities must suffer both in spirit and in efficiency. However, I do not wish to labour details.
§ I pass on to two great grievances which depress both the officers and men of the Marines. The first, relates to command over the men, and the second to rewards for good service. When in war time the Marines are landed they are liable to have a commodore or some such naval officer put over the heads of their own officers. This occurred also in Egypt. It will, I am sure, surprise many in this House to hear 111 that; and I am sure it will surprise a great many more outside. Then it is notorious that Royal Marine officers scarcely ever receive the highest rewards for good service, even those for which they have been recommended. I have been told on very good authority that there is a rule of the Admiralty that no Marine officer shall ever get the G.C.B. Whether that is correct or not, I do not venture to say; I was informed so. These matters ought not to be called stale history. Liability to be treated in this manner exists now exactly as before, and quite recently the Marines were subjected to what I may almost call an insult by having a naval officer put over them as their honorary colonel.
§ The Marines seem to be not only an amphibious body but also an amorphous body; you really cannot make out exactly what their shape is. When they are on board ship they are under the paramount control of the captain; when they are on land they are in connection with the Army without forming part of it. Their position is an exceedingly anomalous one. I cannot conceive any better means of interfering with their efficiency as a force than putting over them commanders who have had no opportunity of commanding them before. It is like changing the conductor of an orchestra at the last moment—always a disastrous matter. Has not the time come when the position of the Royal Marines should be readjusted? The days have gone by when they were required to keep discipline on board ship over unruly men impressed by the Press Gangs. Is it not possible for the Admiralty to find some other means of policing their forces and allow the Marines to take up a better position, either by entirely amalgamating them with the Army or in some other way? I have said all that I intend to say on the subject, although there is far more to be said. I beg to put the Question standing in my name.
§ LORD WIMBORNEMy Lords, I do not complain at all of the action of the noble Lord in raising the question of the status of the Royal Marines, more especially as I think, from what I shall be able to tell him and the House, there is really very little in the case which he laid before the House as far as I was able to understand it. But I am of opinion that it would be inopportune now to discuss the question of the appointment of a Committee such 112 as the noble Lord suggests. The present time seems to me—I think it will so appear to your Lordships—to be very unsuitable for going into what, after all, is a Departmental question; for it is not a question of the fighting efficiency of the Marines that the noble Lord has in view, but their position in relation to the Army and to the Navy. Therefore I hope the noble Lord will not press, at present, for the appointment of a Committee.
If I may say so with respect, the noble Lord's knowledge of the status of the Marines goes back rather far. He talked about their position in the Egyptian campaign, and alluded, I think, to art incident which occurred in the year 1882 with reference to their status on land. Since that date material changes have been introduced into the status which the Marines occupy, and I do not think it would be the least bit informing for us to go back all that time, for the position has altered very much to the good since those days. I understand that the noble Lord is mainly concerned with the question of discipline. I suppose what he really has in mind is the question of Marine officers serving afloat sitting on Courts-Martial when a Marine is under trial. I am aware of that point. Prima facie there might appear to be something in it, but the whole question of naval discipline is involved, and if you were to make Marine officers responsible for naval discipline when Marines were on trial before a Court-Martial it would be difficult to refuse that right to other subordinate services in the Navy, such as the engineering service. I think the noble Lord will see that a much bigger question is raised by that point than appears at first sight.
Perhaps the House will allow me to specify briefly some of the changes that have been introduced, I think to the advantage of the Marine service, in recent years, and to state generally how the situation stands. The House is aware that the Corps of Royal Marines is in fact a military body; it is a branch of the Army, but is specially organised and trained for service in the Fleet as well as ashore. When a force of Marines is landed from ships for military operations, they may be under the Naval Discipline Act or under the Army Act, that will depend upon the discretion of the senior naval officer on the station. If a Marine force were landed to act for a 113 considerable time with the Army, the probability is that they would be put under the Army Act, but when they are employed in conjunction with a naval party it is generally considered better to keep them under the Naval Discipline Act. That is the principle which governs them in that respect, and I do not think it is inconvenient. With regard to the question of pay, a considerable increase in the then existing rates of pay of Royal Marine officers was authorised in 1903, more especially in the cam of the senior ranks. Since then from time to time various additions have been made to their pay in consequence of the increased scope of employment afloat which they now fulfil. For instance, they now carry out certain duties in connection with wireless and the Intelligence Department. Only last year increased rates afloat were authorised, and this year a general increase has been sanctioned to approximate more closely to the rates authorised for Army officers. So that the position of Royal Marine officers has been taken into consideration and improved on several occasions in recent years.
With regard to non-commissioned officers and men, there has been since 1902 a steady improvement in their conditions—first, in connection with increased pay; secondly, awards for efficiency; and, indirectly, by the award of free rations of bread and meat. An additional grade of warrant officers was created in 1912, principally in connection with service afloat, and last year a higher rate was introduced for men serving afloat. Then as to relative rank. In 1913 Marine officers when embarking on His Majesty's ships were given a higher relative rank with respect to naval officers to make their seniority more closely allied to that of naval officers of corresponding age in the Service. That, I understand, has been much appreciated in the Royal Marines. Again, this year the Commandants of Royal Marine Divisions were granted the rank of Brigadier-Generals. With regard to the general scope of the employment of Royal Marine officers, of late years a great deal has been done to improve their position in this respect. Ashore every encouragement is given to Marine officers to qualify at the Staff College, the Royal Naval War College, and the Ordnance College, and other instructional courses are organised both for the Navy and the Army; and many Marine 114 officers are now employed on the staff of the Army in the Ordnance Department and the War College and on the War Staff at the Admiralty. So that whatever grievance there may have been in the past with regard to the appointment of Marine officers on the same level as other officers of the Army and Navy, that grievance has to a great extent disappeared.
Then, with regard to their work afloat, the duties of Marine officers have been increasingly assimilated to those of executive officers on board ship; they are more and more taking their place in carrying out naval duties afloat, such as being on the bridge and so forth, and the whole tendency is to assimilate the two services to equal position when they are serving afloat. Marine officers are employed as Intelligence officers on various foreign stations and in wireless telegraphy duties in the Fleet itself. They are also employed as physical training officers in ships in conjunction with naval officers, and as musketry instructors. As regards the position of General officers in the Royal Marines, it was, I believe, felt to be somewhat of a grievance that General officers were not employed on Staff work, and last year the Admiralty approached the War Office on the subject with a view to concerting with them some scheme for the employment of Marine General officers in Staff appointments. The Army Council agreed to consider Marine officers for such appointments, and only recently one General officer of Marines was selected for, and is now in command at, Sierra Leone, and I understand that the claims of other officers will be considered as vacancies occur. Therefore there is every indication that the policy concerted between the Admiralty and the War Office on this subject has not only attained already a definite result in the appointment of this particular officer, but that other appointments will be considered as vacancies arise.
I hope I have said enough to show that the Corps of Royal Marines, of which, as the House will remember, His Majesty the King is Colonel-in-Chief, is not by any means, as perhaps the noble Lord would have led your Lordships to believe, left out in the cold or not considered. On the contrary, the Admiralty and the War Office are fully conscious of the great and valuable services which this distinguished corps has performed, and they are prepared, as they 115 always have been, to consider any point of grievance which might arise with a view to remedying it. I really do not think the noble Lord has made out any case for the inquiry for which he asks, and I hope, especially in the present circumstances, he will see his way to withdraw his request.
§ LORD WIMBORNEI was not aware that the noble Lord was going to raise those points. I will consider them and communicate with him.
LORD LATYMERI gladly accede to the noble Lord's request not to press for the appointment of a Committee.