Lords Sitting of 24 November 1914

ANGLO-PORTUGUESE COMMERCIAL TREATY BILL. (No. 3.)
EXPORTATION OF ARMS ACT (1900) AMENDMENT BILL. (No. 4.)
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Islington).

HOUSE OF COMMONS (COMMISSIONS IN HIS MAJESTY'S FORCES) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a Tomorrow (The Lord Chancellor). (No. 5.)
LAND DRAINAGE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a Tomorrow (The Lord Lucas). (No. 6.)
SHERIFF COURTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a Tomorrow (The Lord Emmott). (No. 7.)

PACK-BERESEFORD DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings before this House on the Second Reading, together with the documents deposited in the case, returned from the Commons.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Order No. XXXIX to be considered To-morrow in order to its being suspended for the remainder of the week.
HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
First Report of the Select Committee to be printed, and to be considered on Thursday next. (No. 8.)

THE STATUS OF THE ROYAL MARINES.
LORD LATYMER*LORD LATYMER rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether they will appoint a Committee to inquire into the status of the Royal Marines in His Majesty's Forces and to make such recommendations as may appear necessary.
The noble Lord said: I must apologise as a civilian for addressing your Lordships upon a naval or military matter—I am not quite sure in which category this question comes—but I am representing those who are not able to speak for themselves. I may be told that perhaps this is not an opportune moment at which to bring forward such a subject. With that suggestion I could not agree, because I think it is only at such times as these that the country takes an adequate interest in naval and military affairs. I venture to say that the position of the Royal Marines is almost an intolerable one. Many examples could be given of their subjection to rules and customs to which no other part of His Majesty's Service is subjected. As I am anxious not to detain the House unduly, I will bring forward only two examples, but they are typical ones. It may seem almost incredible but it is the fact that Royal Marine officers were once deprived of their right of discipline over their own men. This took place when they were fighting in Egypt, and all punishments were given by captains in the Navy who had to come all the way from Alexandria. It is equally incredible but also a fact that the Marines were, during the same period, deprived of their artillery. Their field guns and their mules were taken away from them and given to the Bluejackets, with the result that at General McNeil's Zareeba, at the most critical moment, the guns jammed, because the Bluejackets had not been used to working them. Surely a force that is liable to such indignities must suffer both in spirit and in efficiency. However, I do not wish to labour details.
I pass on to two great grievances which depress both the officers and men of the Marines. The first, relates to command over the men, and the second to rewards for good service. When in war time the Marines are landed they are liable to have a commodore or some such naval officer put over the heads of their own officers. This occurred also in Egypt. It will, I am sure, surprise many in this House to hear

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that; and I am sure it will surprise a great many more outside. Then it is notorious that Royal Marine officers scarcely ever receive the highest rewards for good service, even those for which they have been recommended. I have been told on very good authority that there is a rule of the Admiralty that no Marine officer shall ever get the G.C.B. Whether that is correct or not, I do not venture to say; I was informed so. These matters ought not to be called stale history. Liability to be treated in this manner exists now exactly as before, and quite recently the Marines were subjected to what I may almost call an insult by having a naval officer put over them as their honorary colonel.
The Marines seem to be not only an amphibious body but also an amorphous body; you really cannot make out exactly what their shape is. When they are on board ship they are under the paramount control of the captain; when they are on land they are in connection with the Army without forming part of it. Their position is an exceedingly anomalous one. I cannot conceive any better means of interfering with their efficiency as a force than putting over them commanders who have had no opportunity of commanding them before. It is like changing the conductor of an orchestra at the last moment—always a disastrous matter. Has not the time come when the position of the Royal Marines should be readjusted? The days have gone by when they were required to keep discipline on board ship over unruly men impressed by the Press Gangs. Is it not possible for the Admiralty to find some other means of policing their forces and allow the Marines to take up a better position, either by entirely amalgamating them with the Army or in some other way? I have said all that I intend to say on the subject, although there is far more to be said. I beg to put the Question standing in my name.
LORD WIMBORNE: My Lords, I do not complain at all of the action of the noble Lord in raising the question of the status of the Royal Marines, more especially as I think, from what I shall be able to tell him and the House, there is really very little in the case which he laid before the House as far as I was able to understand it. But I am of opinion that it would be inopportune now to discuss the question of the appointment of a Committee such
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as the noble Lord suggests. The present time seems to me—I think it will so appear to your Lordships—to be very unsuitable for going into what, after all, is a Departmental question; for it is not a question of the fighting efficiency of the Marines that the noble Lord has in view, but their position in relation to the Army and to the Navy. Therefore I hope the noble Lord will not press, at present, for the appointment of a Committee.
If I may say so with respect, the noble Lord's knowledge of the status of the Marines goes back rather far. He talked about their position in the Egyptian campaign, and alluded, I think, to art incident which occurred in the year 1882 with reference to their status on land. Since that date material changes have been introduced into the status which the Marines occupy, and I do not think it would be the least bit informing for us to go back all that time, for the position has altered very much to the good since those days. I understand that the noble Lord is mainly concerned with the question of discipline. I suppose what he really has in mind is the question of Marine officers serving afloat sitting on Courts-Martial when a Marine is under trial. I am aware of that point. Prima facie there might appear to be something in it, but the whole question of naval discipline is involved, and if you were to make Marine officers responsible for naval discipline when Marines were on trial before a Court-Martial it would be difficult to refuse that right to other subordinate services in the Navy, such as the engineering service. I think the noble Lord will see that a much bigger question is raised by that point than appears at first sight.
Perhaps the House will allow me to specify briefly some of the changes that have been introduced, I think to the advantage of the Marine service, in recent years, and to state generally how the situation stands. The House is aware that the Corps of Royal Marines is in fact a military body; it is a branch of the Army, but is specially organised and trained for service in the Fleet as well as ashore. When a force of Marines is landed from ships for military operations, they may be under the Naval Discipline Act or under the Army Act, that will depend upon the discretion of the senior naval officer on the station. If a Marine force were landed to act for a

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considerable time with the Army, the probability is that they would be put under the Army Act, but when they are employed in conjunction with a naval party it is generally considered better to keep them under the Naval Discipline Act. That is the principle which governs them in that respect, and I do not think it is inconvenient. With regard to the question of pay, a considerable increase in the then existing rates of pay of Royal Marine officers was authorised in 1903, more especially in the cam of the senior ranks. Since then from time to time various additions have been made to their pay in consequence of the increased scope of employment afloat which they now fulfil. For instance, they now carry out certain duties in connection with wireless and the Intelligence Department. Only last year increased rates afloat were authorised, and this year a general increase has been sanctioned to approximate more closely to the rates authorised for Army officers. So that the position of Royal Marine officers has been taken into consideration and improved on several occasions in recent years.
With regard to non-commissioned officers and men, there has been since 1902 a steady improvement in their conditions—first, in connection with increased pay; secondly, awards for efficiency; and, indirectly, by the award of free rations of bread and meat. An additional grade of warrant officers was created in 1912, principally in connection with service afloat, and last year a higher rate was introduced for men serving afloat. Then as to relative rank. In 1913 Marine officers when embarking on His Majesty's ships were given a higher relative rank with respect to naval officers to make their seniority more closely allied to that of naval officers of corresponding age in the Service. That, I understand, has been much appreciated in the Royal Marines. Again, this year the Commandants of Royal Marine Divisions were granted the rank of Brigadier-Generals. With regard to the general scope of the employment of Royal Marine officers, of late years a great deal has been done to improve their position in this respect. Ashore every encouragement is given to Marine officers to qualify at the Staff College, the Royal Naval War College, and the Ordnance College, and other instructional courses are organised both for the Navy and the Army; and many Marine
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officers are now employed on the staff of the Army in the Ordnance Department and the War College and on the War Staff at the Admiralty. So that whatever grievance there may have been in the past with regard to the appointment of Marine officers on the same level as other officers of the Army and Navy, that grievance has to a great extent disappeared.
Then, with regard to their work afloat, the duties of Marine officers have been increasingly assimilated to those of executive officers on board ship; they are more and more taking their place in carrying out naval duties afloat, such as being on the bridge and so forth, and the whole tendency is to assimilate the two services to equal position when they are serving afloat. Marine officers are employed as Intelligence officers on various foreign stations and in wireless telegraphy duties in the Fleet itself. They are also employed as physical training officers in ships in conjunction with naval officers, and as musketry instructors. As regards the position of General officers in the Royal Marines, it was, I believe, felt to be somewhat of a grievance that General officers were not employed on Staff work, and last year the Admiralty approached the War Office on the subject with a view to concerting with them some scheme for the employment of Marine General officers in Staff appointments. The Army Council agreed to consider Marine officers for such appointments, and only recently one General officer of Marines was selected for, and is now in command at, Sierra Leone, and I understand that the claims of other officers will be considered as vacancies occur. Therefore there is every indication that the policy concerted between the Admiralty and the War Office on this subject has not only attained already a definite result in the appointment of this particular officer, but that other appointments will be considered as vacancies arise.
I hope I have said enough to show that the Corps of Royal Marines, of which, as the House will remember, His Majesty the King is Colonel-in-Chief, is not by any means, as perhaps the noble Lord would have led your Lordships to believe, left out in the cold or not considered. On the contrary, the Admiralty and the War Office are fully conscious of the great and valuable services which this distinguished corps has performed, and they are prepared, as they

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always have been, to consider any point of grievance which might arise with a view to remedying it. I really do not think the noble Lord has made out any case for the inquiry for which he asks, and I hope, especially in the present circumstances, he will see his way to withdraw his request.
LORD LATYMER: The noble Lord has not said anything about the question of honours or that of awards.
LORD WIMBORNE: I was not aware that the noble Lord was going to raise those points. I will consider them and communicate with him.
LORD LATYMER: I gladly accede to the noble Lord's request not to press for the appointment of a Committee.

RECRUITING IN IRELAND.
THE EARL OF DESART*THE EARL OF DESART rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether the Householders Return as to enlistment, which is being circulated in England with a letter signed by the Prime Minister, Mr. Bonar Law, and Mr. Henderson, will also be sent to householders in Ireland.
The noble and learned Earl said: My Lords, in putting the Question that stands in my name I hope I may be allowed to make a few observations to indicate the reasons why I have placed it on the Paper. I received last week the Householders Return which has been circulated in England. The recipient is asked to fill in the names of any members of his household who are between certain ages and eligible for military service. The filling up of the return is not obligatory, but the householder is invited to give the desired information. I think the idea an excellent one. With the Return was enclosed a circular-letter drawn up in the happiest terms and signed by the Prime Minister, by Mr. Bonar Law, and by Mr. Henderson, the leaders of three recognised Parties in the House of Commons, whose names, of course, would carry the greatest possible weight with the recipients of these papers. I noticed that the Irish Parties were excluded, in the sense that neither the name of Sir Edward Carson nor that of Mr. Redmond appeared at the foot of the circular-letter. I do not know whether that indicates that a Return and letter of a similar character
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are not going to be sent to householders in Ireland. I hope very Much that that is not the case, because it appears to me that the form of appeal signed by the Prime Minister and the other leaders to whom I have referred is one which is extremely likely to be effective. It has just the personal touch which calls people's attention to their position.
The head of a household having this Return in front of him would hesitate before consigning it to the waste paper basket. The accompanying appeal brings home to him personally the duty of himself and any members of his family eligible for service; and I think the wording of the circular-letter would tend to make parents, who, for reasons of affection one can understand, would perhaps dissuade their sons from offering their services, feel that they ought not to so advise them, and tend also to make sons who are eligible for service feel ashamed that the Return should be sent in without an indication that they are willing to volunteer. The document is a valuable incentive to recruiting, and every one who knows Ireland is aware that there is no country where that incentive is at present more required. Mr. Redmond and some of his lieutenants have carried on an active campaign very loyally and ably in support of recruiting, and I think we Unionists may all claim that we have given those efforts the most loyal and earnest support and done all we could in that direction; but the result in the South of Ireland has been somewhat disappointing and disheartening to us all. I understand that lately there has been a considerable improvement in Dublin. If that be so, I rejoice most heartily. But where incentive is most lacking is in the rural districts.
There are a great number of reasons, some acting indirectly and some directly, why more recruits have not been forthcoming. A man living in a peaceful rural district, seeing everything going on the same as usual, does not get his imagination stirred, and he cannot believe that he or his country or anything else is in peril. The newspapers do not take a pessimistic view of the proceedings abroad, and the people in the rural districts in Ireland do not grasp the urgency of the situation. They think that it is not much use joining a force for home defence. It is said, "Oh, the enemy will never come here; the British

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Navy will prevent them." It is necessary to get behind that lack of imagination and lack of appreciation of the situation. Then, of course, the remarkable prosperity of certain parts of Ireland has its effect upon recruiting. Things are not only going well but exceptionally well, and there is no lack of employment. Moreover, it is only fair to say that there are not in the rural districts of Ireland a large number of men capable of enlisting. Again, of men serving in the Army and in the Reserve, Ireland provides a proportion larger than that which comes from any other part of the United Kingdom. All these causes operate indirectly.
But there are causes which operate directly—I referred to them in the few words which I addressed to your Lordships last week—and one is the activity of disloyal people in Ireland. Many of these people are Sinn Feiners, but there are others. I quite believe, as Mr. Redmond has said over and over again, that the persons at the head of the Sinn Fein movement are not numerous and not personally important, and that ordinarily the society is small in resources; but I do not remember a time when the forces of disloyalty in Ireland were so active and so aggressive as they are at the present moment. And it does set one to think how, they come to be, or have the means of being, so active. There are two or three Irish newspapers whose weekly issues contain articles which are of the most violent character against England. A good many quotations from them were given in The Times this morning. These articles are not only circulated in the newspapers; similar literature is left at cottages everywhere, and the effect is considerable. You must remember that a great many of my countrymen from their youth tip have been told that England is the common enemy, and they begin to think that, whether that is so or not, they had better not get into trouble with the people who disseminate this doctrine. I am sure that this is an agency of considerable importance against recruiting.
In peace I can understand the argument that you ought not to advertise these people, but peace is peace and war is war. There was a case the other day where it was found necessary to execute a German spy. Surely, if you do that, and do it most properly,
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in a case of that kind, measures should be taken to suppress sedition in your midst by your own subjects. It is most important that something should be done, though I do not want to go into it now. My excuse for introducing the subject at all is that it has a direct bearing on the question of recruiting, and therefore I hope very earnestly that the circular-letter signed by the Prime Minister and any other method for recruiting which is adopted and thought effective in England should be extended also to Ireland. You do not get any better soldiers than the Irish; and I am anxious that at the end of the war it shall be impossible to say that in the hour of Britain's need Ireland did not play her part and make her proper contribution to the Empire's fighting Forces. I hope that the answer which I shall receive from His Majesty's Government will be that this circular-letter or something of a similar kind, containing names which will carry weight in Ireland, will be circulated there, and that anything that is done here which is likely to promote recruiting will also be done in Ireland. I beg to ask the Question standing in my name.
LORD WIMBORNE: My Lords, the noble Earl who has just addressed the House has spoken in a spirit which clearly indicates that his main concern is that the contribution of Ireland towards the defence of the Empire should not fall below the figure which he thinks, speaking as an Irishman, she ought to contribute. Speaking from this side of the House we cordially welcome the spirit which the noble Earl has evinced, and we wish to thank him and other Unionists for the support they have given to the Government in this national crisis in the task of bringing home to the people of the country the necessities of the Empire. I was glad to hear the noble Earl state some of the facts with regard to the problem of recruiting in Ireland. I do not think they are always quite appreciated, and Ireland is sometimes unfairly criticised for want of that appreciation.
Ireland occupies an exceptional position from a recruiting point of view in comparison with other parts of the United Kingdom. The number of men of military age in Ireland—men, that is to say, who are not in the Army—is for one reason or another very much smaller than is the case in any other part of the United Kingdom.

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In the first place there is the fact, to which the noble Earl alluded, that Ireland has always contributed to the Regular Army, and even now contributes, very much more than her share in comparison with population. Then there is the fact that many able-bodied men have left Ireland. Emigration has drained the country to a great extent of the young men who otherwise one might expect would join either the Army or in the special effort we are making now; and of those who remain in Ireland of military age a large percentage are engaged in agricultural pursuits. I refer to the small farmer—the man who depends upon his own efforts and those, perhaps, of his son or two sons. These people find it exceedingly difficult, without jeopardising the whole of the occupation in which they are engaged, to leave for the purpose of joining the Army. When you have deducted these three classes you find that the class from which you may hope to get recruits is really confined to those men of military age who reside in urban areas in Ireland. The largest urban area in Ireland for this purpose is Belfast, where certainly they have less difficulty to contend with than is the case in other parts. Then there is Dublin. Dublin, however, is not so favourably situated. But when you have done with Belfast and Dublin you have to fall hack on the small towns, where the number of males of military age is very limited.
THE EARL OF DESART: Does the noble Lord suggest that there are no men in the rural districts who are capable of serving? I think that is putting it too high.
LORD WIMBORNE: I did not say there were none. I say that of those of military age in rural districts a very large number, for the reasons I have given, find it impossible to join. Having stated that fact, I do not mean to infer that Ireland is incapable of giving us any recruits at this moment. That is not the view of the noble Earl or of his Party, or of the Nationalist Party in Ireland. It is quite clear, from the observations which have been made from time to time by my hon. friend Mr. Redmond, that he at any rate does not think that the possibilities of Irish recruiting have been exhausted; and I was glad to hear the noble Earl pay a tribute to Mr. Redmond and admit that he has done everything in his power to urge upon the Irish people their interest in our success
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and their duty to come forward in sufficient numbers.
Ireland has suffered in the matter of recruiting also, I think I may say, from another difficulty. There was a delay, as the House remembers, in putting the Home Rule Bill upon the Statute Book. I do not say that that delay was avoidable, but it a little damped the ardour of the Nationalists; they were kept in some uncertainty for several weeks, and the favourable moment for recruiting did, no doubt, to some extent slip away. Then there was another difficulty. I dare say your Lordships will remember that the Irish Nationalist Party expressed a desire that those Irishmen who joined at the present crisis should be known as the Irish Brigade or the Irish Corps. That appealed to national sentiment and would in everybody's opinion have been of very valuable assistance. That view was taken by the Government, and a promise was made that an Irish Corps should be created. But there again there was unavoidable delay, which has also been something in the nature of a difficulty towards recruiting. But at the present moment those hindrances have been removed, and I am given to understand—the noble Earl will correct me if I am wrong—that there has been a marked improvement in recruiting in Ireland in the course of the last two weeks.
THE EARL OF DESART: I stated that I had heard that it was so in Dublin. That was all that I committed myself to.
LORD WIMBORNE: I have heard the same, and I was further told that amongst the Nationalists in Belfast there has been a marked improvement too. There is no doubt whatever that there has been something in the nature of an improvement in recruiting in Ireland in the last two weeks. Anyhow I know this, that the leaders of the Nationalist Party in Ireland are doing their best to bring it about. Nobody can read the speeches that have been delivered by Mr. Redmond, Mr. Dillon, and Mr. Devlin during the course of the last month or two without appreciating that it is their sincere desire, both for Ireland and for England, to bring recruiting up to the highest possible standard.
The noble Earl alluded to the attitude which the Sinn Feiners are taking with regard to recruiting. We must all agree

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with him that the course which they have adopted recently is deplorable from every point of view. I do not wish to palliate for a moment the attitude they have taken up or the expression of opinion to which they have given utterance in the newspapers which represent their views. I understand that what the noble Earl asks us to do with regard to circularising householders in Ireland is something in the nature of a counterblast to the publications now being so freely circulated throughout rural Ireland. If that is his view, I think there is a great deal in it. Advantage might be gained by such a circular being distributed throughout Ireland putting to householders directly the position and the need for recruits.
THE EARL OF DESART: I said that it was desirable that the circular-letter should be distributed for other reasons than as a counterblast. The course to be taken with regard to the action of the Shin Feiners should be of a very different character in my view.
LORD WIMBORNE: I understood the noble Earl to infer that he would regard the distribution of a circular-letter of this kind as valuable—
THE EARL OF DESART: Yes, for recruiting purposes.
LORD WIMBORNE: Valuable as a counteraction to the attitude which he and I join in deploring. I presume that he refers to the attempt on the part of the Sinn Fein Press to discourage recruiting. A Government statement of the position might serve to counteract the result of any such literature, and I agree that there is a good deal in what the noble Earl says. But in England our action, in which the Opposition have joined, is still in the nature of an experiment. We have not yet been able to estimate what results we shall obtain from it. I think it would be wise to get a little more experience from the way in which it acts in England before we extend it to Ireland, where the circumstances are so very different. I welcome the noble Earl's suggestion and will convey it to those who are in a position to come to a decision on the point. I thank the noble Earl for the spirit in which he has drawn your Lordships' attention to this matter, and I can assure him that this and any
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other method of assisting recruiting in Ireland will always receive our best and most careful consideration.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: Has this appeal to householders, to which Lord Desart has referred, been sent round to householders in Scotland as well as in England?
LORD WIMBORNE: I understand that it is being worked by Commands. The Southern Command, I believe, was the first to start. I do not think all householders in England have yet received the form. I have not yet seen it myself.
THE EARL OF RANFURLY: My Lords, with regard to the suggested distribution of a circular throughout Ireland, I wish to point out that such cannot possibly have any great use as long as the Government allow the present pernicious publications—copies of which I have in my hand and shall be glad to hand to the noble Lord—to be circulated, and take no action against the persons who publish them. I have not the least doubt that the cost of these anti, recruiting publications is paid for with German gold, and the Irish Government should direct attention to the matter. The documents are being spread broadcast throughout the North of Ireland as well as the South, East, and West. Their object is to stop recruiting; they successfully do so in many places, because the people who read them are told not to believe what they see in the English-paid Press—that it is all lies, and that Germany is their friend. They believe this, with the result that they do not come forward. I ask, Why cannot the Irish Government do their duty and stop treason and spying?
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, I think that the noble Lord opposite [Lord Wimborne], in the course of his interesting apology for the present position of recruiting in Ireland, must have realised that he had not really dealt with the kernel of the impeachment. None of us on this side of the House desire to magnify the difficulty; on the contrary, we want to remove the present impediment. When time noble Lord set up as a defence the fact that a larger number of Irishmen are in the ranks of the Regular Army as compared to the numbers who enlist ordinarily in England and Scotland he must have known that

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his parallel was not quite complete, for there has been in England and Scotland a Territorial Force of 300.000 men. That force has not existed in Ireland, and that fact makes a very great difference in any comparison. But what we are dealing with now is not the past but the present. Without trespassing beyond the boundaries which one likes to set up of non-Party argument on these occasions, I do not think I could very well deal with the noble Lord's apology for the state of recruiting in the month of November being due to the fact that a particular Act was not placed on the Statute Book before the month of September. Nor could I very well touch with any advantage upon what seemed to me to be the rather flimsy pretext that an Irish Brigade, which I think was intended to be an Irish Army Corps, had not been conceded before the speech of the Prime Minister in Dublin. The present stagnation of recruiting in Ireland is not due to any matters of that kind, but to the entirely different cause referred to by the noble Earl on the Cross Benches [Lord Desart] and by Lord Ranfurly. How can you expect the poorer classes in the South and West of Ireland to have any patriotic feelings when you allow, not one newspaper, but a series of newspapers to circulate the most pernicious libels with regard to the British Army and the British cause? I do not wish to make this debate a bitter one by citing any of the quotations from the four Irish newspapers whose seditious articles were brought to the notice of English readers by The Times this morning. Those of us who are connected with Ireland have been reading such articles for the past three months. I do not think anything could give greater offence both to our Army at the front and to the loyal men who are giving up good appointments in England to join the Colours than the fact that these gross libels are left untouched by His Majesty's Government. The noble Lord who replied for the Government said that the noble Earl on the Cross Benches wanted a counterblast to these seditious prints. That is not what we ask for. What we want to know is, Are the Government going to prosecute these seditious newspapers?
LORD WIMBORNE: The noble Earl on the Cross Benches did not ask that. The Question which he put concerned the circulation in Ireland of the document to which he referred.
THE EARL OF DESART: I had put on the Paper a Question about the Householders Return circulated in England, and therefore I limited my observations to the question as to how its distribution in Ireland would affect recruiting. But I incidentally referred to these vile publications by Sinn Feiners, and indicated as strongly as I could that I thought the matter ought to be dealt with by the Government in the most drastic manner.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: What I want the noble Lord opposite to grapple with is the fact that the returns for the last three months show the effect of this anti-recruiting propaganda. Could there be a greater farce than that the Prime Minister should go to Dublin—supported by the leader of the Nationalist Party and with Unionists on the platform—and address an impassioned appeal to the Irish people, and then that the Government should allow the whole effect of that unequalled effort to be done away with by the promulgation every week of these outrageous and libellous statements with regard to the Army and the country? I hardly think the Government are fully aware of what the effect has been of the violent articles in these anti-British newspapers, or of the attempts that have been made to arouse the worst passions which could be aroused in a nationality—such, for instance, as the deliberate statement that Irish regiments had been placed in the forefront of the battle and left there in order that they should suffer greater loss as compared with English regiments. I will not make any allegation as to how these seditious newspapers in Ireland are kept up. There is, of course, a shrewd suspicion, which has been actually asserted, that the money is not found in this country or in Ireland. That being so, on what principle can His Majesty's Government shut their eyes to what is palpably ruining the position of Ireland in the recruiting world? When the war is over nothing, I believe, will be felt so acutely by all friends of Ireland, whatever their politics, as the fact that when the crisis came Ireland was not given the scope that she would have had to respond to the call of the Empire because she was subjected to an evil influence which it was in the power of His Majesty's Government, had they chosen to do so, to remove.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, the noble Viscount opposite is entirely within his right in raising this subject, but I would venture to ask him why he did not give us some notice that he was about to call attention to the particular question of seditious publications in Ireland and their possible suppression. The noble Viscount knows as well as we do that there is only one Irish Minister at this moment, and he sits in another place. For a long time when we sat opposite we had the pleasure of the presence in this House of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, but now the only Irish Minister is my right hon. friend in another place. Therefore when the noble Viscount asks us a series of questions as to why certain action has not been taken in particular cases, he must know that it is not possible for us to answer offhand. The noble Earl on the Cross Benches put a specific question in extremely clear terms, if he will allow me to say so, and he touched quite incidentally on this further factor in the matter of Irish recruiting—that of the efforts which are being made by the Sinn Feiners to interfere with it; he mentioned this as one of the reasons which may have, and probably has, interfered with the flow of recruiting in the country. Then the noble Viscount opposite gets up and makes it the sole subject, of observations which I am far from saying are not absolutely pertinent to a discussion of the whole subject but which were not mentioned in the noble Earl's Question. It would have been so simple for the noble Viscount also to put down a Question on the Paper dealing with this side of the subject, and we then would have replied to the best of our ability. But as it is we are not furnished with the specific facts necessary for answering the noble Viscount's question, and consequently I do not think it would be profitable if I were to attempt to suggest possible reasons for the action that the Irish Government have or have not taken. Therefore if the noble Viscount wishes to pursue the subject I have no doubt he will take an opportunity of doing so on a future occasion.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: I only rise to say, without accepting the rebuke of the noble Marquess as quite fair, that we will follow his advice by putting down a Question on the Paper which will enable noble Lords opposite to give us the information for which we ask.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: May I ask the noble Marquess whether he has any idea of the Bills that are likely to come up to us from another place either to-morrow or the next day.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I have not a list of the Bills, but there are some the progress of which in the House of Commons I dare say the noble Earl has noted, including the Defence of the Realm Consolidation Bill which I think does not come up to us until Thursday. To-morrow (Wednesday), in addition to a Motion in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, dealing with the position of aliens, the following Bills which have reached this House will appear on the Paper for Second Reading—namely, Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Bill, Land Drainage Bill, House of Commons (Commissions in His Majesty's Forces) Bill, Exportation of Arms Act, (1900) Amendment Bill, and Anglo-Portuguese Commercial Treaty Bill. There will be others to come up from the other House, including, of course, the Finance Bill, which will arrive here, I think, on Thursday. On that day also I understand that my noble and gallant friend the Secretary of State for War will be able to make a general statement on matters concerning his Office. A number of Bills will pass the House of Commons on. Thursday, and as it is desirable that some of theta should become law before the end of the week I propose to ask your Lordships to sit on Friday afternoon in order to deal with those measures. The alternative, of course, would be to let them stand over until Monday, but I am informed that it would be undesirable to postpone the Royal Commission so long.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: In those circumstances, when would Parliament adjourn?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I imagine that we should adjourn on Friday.
THE EARL OF CRAWFORD: I have a Question on the Paper for to-morrow to elicit information from the Lord Chancellor about aliens. Would it be more convenient to him and to the noble Marquess and the House generally if I were to put off my Question until Thursday. The Defence of the Realm Consolidation Bill largely covers

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ground on which I desire to offer your Lordships some observations, and if the noble Marquess thinks it desirable I will postpone my Notice and say what I have to say on the Defence of the Realm Consolidation Bill when it comes up, so that the discussion should not be duplicated.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: As there is no other business on the Paper for tomorrow except the few Bills which I have already announced, it probably would make a greater economy of time if the noble
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Earl would take his Question to-morrow and not wait for the Defence of the Realm Consolidation Bill. When that Bill comes up there may be something of a plethora of other business, and as the discussion on the noble Earl's Question may occupy sonic time I think it would be for the general convenience if he were willing to take it to-morrow.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.