§ VISCOUNT MIDLETON rose to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is intended to appoint a Committee to inquire into the allowances to dependants of soldiers; and whether, in view of the large number of members of this House experienced in this question, it would be possible to appoint a Joint Committee of both Houses so as to ensure as general support as possible to any scheme which may be recommended.
§ The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I do not propose to delay your Lordships for more than a moment, or to attempt any argument with regard to this much vexed question of allowances to the wives, widows, and dependants of soldiers. I do not know who will represent the War Office in this matter, but what I would venture to put to him very strongly is this, that there is no question that the whole consideration of this matter must be reopened. Everybody admits that the circulars that have been published up to the present have left the question in great confusion, and there is in a great many quarters a strong disposition to challenge the intermediate decision arrived at by the Government. What I would specially urge is that this House should be allowed to bear some share in the decision of the question and for this reason. The officers who are now responsible at the War Office are overburdened with work. It is quite enough for them to have to do with the carrying on of the war without being called upon to sit for hours on committees to consider what may be the exact effect of certain allowances on certain classes.
§ But this House happens to be singularly equipped with officers of superior rank who are in close touch with the soldiers and have been so all their lives. For instance, there is the noble and gallant Field-Marshal who moved the Address 102 the other night (Lord Methuen); and there would not be the slightest difficulty in naming officers from this House who would be able to give as good an opinion as to the effect of these allowances as any officer now serving in the War Office. Then, again, it happens that in the House of Commons there is not a single individual who has ever served in the War Office in any capacity except those on the Government Bench; whereas in this House we have numerous ex-officials of the War Office who have for years studied these questions and have themselves been responsible in many cases—such as the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack and my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition—whose opinions would be of value. In addition, as a very strong moral tone has been given to the discussion by the introduction for the first time of Government allowances in cases where there is no legitimate connection, I think that it would be of great value if one member of the Episcopal Bench were allowed to serve, more especially as on all sides a ad in all parties there is a disposition to deal generously with all these relationships of soldiers. At the same time it is admitted that some regard must be had to the enormous non-combatant charge which must be involved, and to the effect that over-generosity in certain directions may have on the future well-being of the Army.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYMy Lords, before the noble Lord who is going to do so replies I should like to say a few words. I have had to do with this question from the time that the war began to the present hour, in addition to having heard a great deal about it at the time of the Boer War ten or twelve years ago. Personally I have taken pains to give a great many hours and days of work to it, and I have been referred backwards and forwards from Committee to Committee, from one Government Department to another, and to the various high officials who have for the time being taken this matter in hand. The result left upon my mind, after a great deal of personal intercourse with men who have treated me in a most kindly and courteous manner, has been a feeling of pity and commiseration for overworked men who have had, erroneously as I venture to think, put upon them in connection with this matter a burden which they are incompetent to 103 carry owing to their overwork and their total lack of knowledge of the working out in detail of these things, which belong not really to war questions or directly and primarily to military questions at all, but to social and domestic work, because they relate to the home of the soldier—work such as the Local Government Board and other bodies are a great deal more competent to deal with.
Almost invariably when the question has been raised the answer has been given that another circular is coming out. Yes, they do come out. There have been about eight on this subject already, and I have three in my hand now. But those circulars are absolutely inconsistent with one another. They get out of their difficulties in part by each one having what I may call a promissory character and by studious avoidance of a date. There is no date given, but I have discovered, by a kind of cipher reading from the marks of the printers, the chronological order of the documents. This is the kind of thing which conies out—
It must be clearly understood that the orders and regulations made and to be made will alone be the documents that will be decisive in this matter as to any points which may arise in particular cases, this memorandum being no more than a presentation to Parliament of the main lines of the scheme.I think the next regulation says that before the particular allowance is made it will be necessary for the soldier to do so and so. It is added, "Fuller particulars are published separately." But there is no indication where we are to get them, and I cannot get them myself. Yesterday or to-day another circular appeared which is absolutely inconsistent with the circulars which have gone before dealing with this subject. It does not surprise me, because to my knowledge these circulars emanate from men who have obviously and necessarily very much larger questions to consider and who find it impossible to give the time to this one that they ought.I will give your Lordships a concrete example of the kind of thing that happens. It has been arranged in the circulars from the beginning—and most properly, let me say—that the wife of a man who is serving at the Front or at home shall have, not a claim to consideration, but an absolute right as a portion of the obligation which the country undertakes—a right to receive the proper and suitable aid which she requires. I endorse that with all my heart. But the circulars have gone on to say that 104 a similar allowance shall be made to unmarried mothers of a soldier's children. I am not quarrelling with the principle of an allowance being made to those who have been really dependent on the soldier even though there is no marriage tie between the man and the woman. That is a large and very complicated and delicate question. I am prepared to enter with the most entire agreement into the discussion of arrangements under which the woman thus circumstanced should have proper help. But see what happens. In the rule about the wife it is laid down that if she is to claim as a wife the marriage must have taken place before the war. A certain number of women who make the claim have been married since the war to the men with whom they had been living before. We ask, Does the allowance thereby cease? I have heard two official answers. One is, Yes. I have seen another answer stating that the War Office will take care that this apparent injustice, or irregularity, shall not follow. That is merely one example of the kind of confusion which is prevailing in regard to the whole matter and emphasises the need of its being properly gone into.
I understand that a Committee is going to be appointed by the Government to deal with this matter. It will consist, I am afraid, of very busy men who are theorists rather than men of practical experience in handling questions of relief given to poor homes. As to the manner in which relief is to be given, one of the three circulars says that dependants who are unmarried are only to receive the allowances on the recommendation of what is known as the Old-Age Pensions Committee of the neighbourhood or district. A less suitable body in some parts of England to do this particular work could hardly be imagined. That Committee exists to look into statistical points as to whether documents are right or wrong, whether an age has been fraudulently given, and so on. In most cases it is administered by min and usually by a clerk—a very competent man, no doubt, but obviously not a suitable authority to go into the question of the relationship to the soldier of the young woman who is pleading for aid as a dependant. To work it through those Committees as they exist is impracticable. It may appear all right on paper, but when put into practice it will break down. On comparatively few of those Committees are women sitting, and I claim that in this particular matter you must have women 105 to do that which the circulars say should be done if you are to have it done properly. I give those merely as examples of the confusion which is now prevailing. And I venture to say that the thought of another Committee going to consider it, composed of prominent members of the House of Commons, does not afford me very much comfort, unless that Committee is going to take counsel with, and to be guided by, some of those who are holding less official posts but who are more conversant with the workings of a matter which is primarily social and not military, and I venture to hope that this strengthening may be of a thorough and far-reaching kind.
LORD LUCASMy Lords, I think my best answer to the speech of the most rev. Primate—I do not want to go in detail into the various points which he raised—is to say that a Committee is going to be set up to deal with a certain number of the present anomalies and to work out this scheme in full. It is suggested by the noble Viscount, Lord Midleton, that that Committee might well include members of this House. It is fully recognised by the Government that there are noble Lords who have interested themselves in these matters and who have a very wide experience of them. But the question is so largely one of finance that it has to be regarded as falling within the province of the House of Commons rather than of this House, and for that reason the Committee which the Prime Minister is to-day moving to set up will be a Committee of the House of Commons. The most rev. Primate was doubtful as to whether the Committee was going to be of a practical character. The Committee, I understand, is going to be one thoroughly representative of the House of Commons, and we may be perfectly confident that the Prime Minister, who has interested himself in this question, knows fully its intricacies and difficulties and will appoint a suitable Committee.
§ VISCOUNT MIDLETONMy Lords, I am sorry to hear the decision of the Government. In the circumstances it seems that the only opportunity this House will have of making itself heard on this subject will he by a Motion of this House; and therefore I think it best to give notice that I will on some early day call attention to the whole question, and especially to the extremely unsatisfactory nature of the Resolution Put forward by the Treasury and by the War Office a few days ago.
LORD LUCASMay I, with all deference to the noble Viscount, suggest that perhaps the more practical way of doing it would be to state a case to the Committee.
§ EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTONMy Lords, my noble friend raised the question of the composition of the Committee, and that was the point, rather than the creation of the Committee, which was the subject of the speech of the most rev. Primate. This House contains a large number of men with practical experience in this matter, and also a large number of military officers and military experts who would be only too glad to place their services at the disposal of the Government; and for those reasons the Committee should be a Committee of both Houses of Parliament. The noble Lord, in reply to that, says, This is a matter of finance, and therefore the House of Commons conceive it to be within their privilege. It is rather a pitiful thing to have this old question of privilege trotted out on an occasion of this sort. This is a matter involving the social welfare of the people, and there are as many members of this House as competent to advise on the welfare of the people as there are of the House of Commons. His Majesty's Government are making a great mistake. We can give them great assistance, and, unless the decision is irrevocable, I would ask that the Leader of the House should represent the matter to the Prime Minister and say that there is a strong view upon it in this House. We shall be very sorry indeed if we are put off on the narrow technical plea that has been advanced by the noble Lord.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWEI will, of course, convey to the Prime Minister the representation which the noble Earl desires to make on behalf of himself and his noble friends. But I think it is not quite just to sit this down as a question of privilege as between the two Houses, although it wears that outward form as regards the composition of the Committee. The real fact surely is rather this, that the House of Commons has to be the guardian of the public purse. It is very easy in a matter of this kind—no amount of experience either of the Army or of affairs generally will save people from this—and very tempting to be generous at the expense of the taxpayer and thereby settle a question offhand for the time being amid any amount of applause from the Press and from the public generally. But 107 the function of the House of Commons—although probably it is not a function which it always exercises with great success —is to look after the taxpayer in a matter of this kind; and it was on that special ground, rather than on the general ground of privilege as between the two Houses, that my right hon. friend the Prime Minister reached the decision that a single Committee rather than a Joint Committee would be most appropriately set up on this occasion. But, as I have said, I will of course represent to my right hon. friend the expression of opinion which the noble Earl has made.