Lords Sitting of 18 November 1914

The KING'S Answer to the Address of Wednesday last reported by the Lord Chamberlain (L. Sandhurst).
PACK-BERESFORD'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons for Copy of the Minutes of Evidence taken before this House; together with the proceedings and the documents deposited in the case: Ordered to be communicated with a request that they may be returned.

THE SPY PERIL.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY THE EARL OF HALSBURY rose to call attention to the various acts of high treason alleged to have been committed in this country, and to ask whether His Majesty's Government have investigated the facts alleged, and, if they have been accurately alleged, why no indictment for high treason has been preferred.
The noble and learned Earl said: My Lords, I hope that neither the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack nor the noble Marquess who leads the House will misunderstand the object of my Question. The very last thing that I should desire to do would be in any way to embarrass His Majesty's Government. I say most sincerely that I wish to help them in every way in my power, and I regard that as the duty of all in the present emergency. My Question, therefore, has no reference to any criticism of His Majesty's Government. It is put with a wish to get rid of what I think is a great delusion, which is, I believe, leading to very great mischief. We have been so long away from the region of the administration of the law of high treason that nobody seems to think of it. Unfortunately I was not in the House at the time it was made, but I read with something like amazement the speech of the noble Lord Crawford, last Wednesday, and the instances to which he referred, including a case where certainly there was evidence of high treason, if it was not actually proved, which was punished by a £5 fine. The result of such a punish-
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ment is to make people misunderstand the exact position of the law.
We all know that the "chivalrous" and "courageous" mode of making war—that of spending enormous sums of money to induce people to betray their country—is going on. A man may think very lightly of the possibility of being fined £5, or, indeed, of being sent to prison for six months; but if everybody was made to, understand that the sending of letters, signalling, or any act by which the enemy could be assisted in what they were doing or in defending themselves was presumably an act of high treason for which the offenders might be hanged, people would: probably think a little more of the risk: they were incurring. I know nothing: about the facts to which my noble friend Lord Crawford referred, but he professed to know them of his own knowledge. The question which I venture to ask is this. If these facts are known and if they are capable of being proved, what is the reason why the course of procedure has not been taken which I suggest should be taken, and which is the natural and proper and ordinary course in cases of the kind when one country is at war with another?
I am afraid that a great deal of mischief may be done by the manner in which the Criminal Law is approached. We have got so much out of the habit of placing responsibility in the hands of the local magistrates and chief constables that everybody seems to think that the Home Office is the only authority who can authorise or begin a prosecution. I need not tell your Lordships that every grand jury in the country may find a bill for high treason to-morrow if they have evidence upon it; indeed, it has been held that they are entitled to do so upon hearsay. But be that as it may, what seems to me to be the very serious error which is pervading the whole country is that minor offences invented in time of peace in order to avoid the necessity of prosecuting in every case for high treason are taking the place of prosecutions for high treason when we are at war, and when very serious injury indeed may be done by signalling and epistolary correspondence. What my noble friend said the other day was that a regular code had been discovered by which information; of every sort and kind might be conveyed to the enemy. A conspiracy of that

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kind for the purpose of communicating with the enemy is in itself high treason, and has been so held. If the offence is treated as lightly as it has been, the fear is that people will not consider the risk they are running when they enter into a conspiracy of that sort. Should the facts that have been stated be capable of being proved, then the persons concerned ought to be prosecuted for high treason, so that those who are guilty of these offences should learn the serious risk they run in conspiring with the enemy with whom His Majesty is at war.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, so far from complaining of the speech which the noble and learned Earl has just made I think it is very useful that attention should be called to these matters, as it enables us to have the opportunity of sifting them and knowing where truth is and where fiction is, for I need not say that at a time of public excitement like the present fiction and truth are very liberally intermixed. I have no doubt of the bona fides of the impressions which people form about these cases. Last week the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, who is not here today, referred to certain cases in Scotland. I have had an opportunity since then of conferring with both the military and the civil authorities in Scotland about those cases. I find that the authorities were cognisant of all of these rumours and investigated them, and wherever they found a case where there was the least hope of success they took action. The cases in which they did not take action were based on hearsay—cases in which A had repeated information to B and B had passed it on to C, with the result that one could not get back to the original facts or obtain any evidence to establish the charge. I quite agree that in a case where anything approaching to high treason has been committed a £5 fine is ludicrous, and that the serious proceedings of which the noble and learned Earl spoke ought to be taken.
I am able to state to your Lordships that vigorous action is being taken not only by the military but by the civil authorities. There are three modes of dealing with treasonable acts. First the ordinary, Common Law prosecution for high treason, which is done here almost invariably at
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the instance of the Attorney-General, and in Scotland invariably at the instance of the Lord Advocate. Secondly, when an alien enemy commits an offence of this kind he can be tried before a Court-Martial for a war crime; a man was so tried the other day, and convicted. The third course is a prosecution before a Court-Martial under the Defence of the Realm Act which was passed the other day and under which certain statutory regulations were made to cover offences of almost every kind, extending to what, if tried civilly, would be high treason, the only difference being that although a Court-Martial can give penal servitude for life—at any rate for twenty years; I think for life—it cannot decree the capital sentence. Consequently in all cases in which the offence is one which seems likely to lead to a capital sentence, proceedings have been taken outside the Defence of the Realm Act. The other day, as I have said, an alien enemy was tried before a Court-Martial for a war crime and convicted; at this moment there is a prosecution for high treason pending, and there are others under investigation.
I can assure my noble and learned friend that it is not through want of attention on the part of the authorities that any of these cases escape. So far from its being in contemplation that these matters should be tried before magistrates or by inferior criminal tribunals, the desire is that they should be tried with the supreme majesty of the law. Investigations take place into every case to see whether it is one in which there is a reasonable hope of conviction. There is, of course, a class of offence—a serious class of offence—in which it is not necessary or desirable to proceed for high treason; but in some of these cases very heavy sentences have been given for crimes such as trading with the enemy, which either by Statute or Common Law are taken cognisance of by the Jurisprudence of this realm. Since I had notice of this Question I have had an opportunity of conferring with the Attorney-General, and I can only repeat to your Lordships what I have already said —that all cases that promise to be of the least importance conic before him for investigation, and he unhesitatingly directs prosecution when they present a chance of success. A large number of other cases have been inquired into by the military

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authorities, and I do not think your Lordships need be under any apprehension that any offence of a serious nature will escape punishment. There are other offences of a quite minor character which ought to be dealt with at a time like this, and which are being dealt with, by the inferior tribunals.
At this moment, however, I am talking of cases which amount to high treason. Fortunately there are not a large number of cases of that kind. But whether there are or are not, the authorities are taking the view which the noble and learned Earl has expressed— namely, that these are matters which, at a juncture like this, are of serious moment and should be so dealt with. They are being dealt with, as I have said, wherever there is a fair chance of success—the difficulty of evidence is one which must not be overlooked—and I can assure the House that the authorities are alive to their duties in connection with these cases.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I have listened with interest to the remarks of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, but I regret to say that they have given me no confidence whatever. I live on the North-East coast of England, where the position is most precarious. We have reason to believe, as mines have been washed ashore on that coast, that assistance has been given to the enemy by people living on our own shores or by neutral ships. The Home Secretary made a speech the other day in which, as far as I could gather, he placed the responsibility on every single Department except his own. "Please, Sir, it was the other boy, not me." That was his cry—a contemptible cry. He stated that he thought chief constables ought to be in a position to arrest and bring before the authorities those who were suspected of assisting the enemy. I ask, What are the powers of a chief constable? According to the Home Secretary the whole responsibility has been placed on the chief constable. Is he to arrest people at once; is he to have them tried at once; and what is to be done with them? The German Consul at Sunderland has been arrested on account of seditious papers and plans found in his possession, and he has been in Durham Gaol since August. What is
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going to be done to him? Is he going to be let out on a £5 penalty?
I have not hesitated to write to my noble friend the Lord Lieutenant of my county, Lord Durham—grieved as he is at the moment by a bereavement to which I need not further allude—suggesting that he and the chairman of the county council should call a meeting of the magistrates of the county, at which the chief constable should be requested to attend. I ask, Shall we be justified in giving instructions to the chief constable? If that meeting is called I shall suggest that the chief constable be instructed to order the arrest of any man whom he considers to be a spy and have him tried before a proper tribunal, and that if the man is found guilty of spying and assisting the enemy, we, the magistrates, should take the law into our own hands and have him shot on the spot. That is the only way in which you will stop this; and although we may afterwards be arrested for murder, I doubt whether any jury would not say that in the action we had taken we were doing what the Government ought to have done in defence Of the country.
THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I regret to say that the country in which I live is riddled with seditious literature. An enormous quantity of anti-recruiting pamphlets is being issued in Ireland. A great many Irishmen have joined the Colours, but these pamphlets are distributed in out-of-the-way parts of Ireland and are doing considerable harm. There is no printer's name upon them and it is quite impossible to find out by whom they are printed. Then, again, several newspapers in Dublin consistently preach sedition. In old days a newspaper of that sort was easily stopped. A four-wheeled cab drove to the office in the early morning and the occupants broke open the premises, smashed up the type, and took the copies of the newspaper away. I wish the authorities would now follow that example of the Fenian days. This literature is distributed broadcast throughout the country, and that fact is not only exceedingly trying to the Loyalist population but also to the Nationalist Party, who, I am glad to say, have done their best of late to encourage recruiting in Ireland. I venture to urge that steps should be taken to put a stop to these proceedings.
THE EARL OF DESART: My Lords, in reference to what has just been said by my noble friend Lord Mayo, I should like to state that I was informed in September last that in a part of Ireland which I know well a large motor-car had travelled through three counties distributing at every cottage leaflets of the character mentioned. The responsible police officer in the neighbourhood said that he knew the owner of the car and where it was hired, and that he had reported the matter to Dublin Castle. Nothing, however, came of it, and it seemed to me at the time a matter of some surprise that no notice should have been taken of so serious an offence.
In my part of the country we are all a little disappointed at the results of the recruiting campaign that was undertaken by Mr. Redmond and others of his supporters. We know how loyally and earnestly Mr. Redmond has pursued that campaign. But it is interfered with by the fact that there is published week by week in Irish newspapers literature which, whether it constitutes high treason or not, is seditious in character and certainly disloyal to the interests of the Empire at this juncture. It is quite true that the pamphlets that are distributed do not make the recipients of them Sinn Feiners, but we know that there have been in the last fifty years a number of leagues in Ireland which have influenced the population very largely and have almost exercised judicial functions. Though they may not endorse the views set forth in these pamphlets, the recipients of them think that it is better not to offend these people, and to that extent the distribution of this literature does have an influence upon recruiting.
We who live in the South of Ireland have supported Mr. Redmond as loyally as we could in his campaign. We feel that the insufficiency of the response to his appeal is a reproach to us, and we earnestly desire, whatever other causes there may be for it, that this cause to which attention has been called, which is capable of being removed, as I submit, should be removed by the Government. I think I speak for everybody in Ireland who wants to see the Empire supported at this juncture when I say that we have viewed with apprehension and surprise the inaction of the authorities in connection
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with this particular kind of literature. In Cork, I think it was, a man was tried by Court-Martial for having one of these papers in his possession, but he was acquitted on the ground that there was nothing to show that he had incited or done anything with it; he simply possessed a copy. It was rightly held that it was rather absurd to prosecute a man for having a paper in his possession when the person who published it was left unscathed. I hope that action will be taken in cases where the evidence is sufficient to put a stop to this form of propaganda.
THE EARL OF MEATH: My Lords, I can corroborate so far as Dublin is concerned what has been said by my noble friends from Ireland. Dublin at this moment is being swamped by literature which I should think came within the category of high treason. A good portion of this literature is issued from America, and is distributed in the poorer parts of the City of Dublin. I know this to be the case, because these leaflets have been distributed over my property in one of the poorest parts of Dublin. It has been done openly, so much so that people are stopped on the road and requested not to do anything which would assist the British Government in any way, whether by recruiting or anything else. Even the children have taken it up. Like children, they play at war; but they all want to be Germans.
The truth is that there is a large amount of German money in Ireland. How it comes there is not known. I am not speaking from a Party point of view. The Lord Mayor of Dublin said openly in the Corporation that he knew there was "a good deal of German money going." We know this is so, because there are a great many people who have not much money of their own and yet are spending a lot. How did those mines get laid off the coast of Ireland? I should like to ask. I do not want any secrets told, but I think the man in the street could say pretty nearly how. I do not suppose that it was done by German men-of-war; that would not be suggested for one moment. The fact of the matter, I suppose, is that it was done by German agents or by disguised German officers in Irish fishing boats. I want to know, Have we a Government in Ireland or have we not? For the last few years

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I have come to the conclusion that there is nobody at all responsible in Ireland. I have hesitated to approach the Chief Secretary, because I know that I should get the answer which always has been given—namely, that nothing can be done. As a matter of fact, we do not know who governs us in Ireland. When we had the lamentable collision in the streets of Dublin it made one unhappy to feel that everybody threw the blame upon everybody else, and whether the people who eventually got punished were the real offenders nobody knows. But the point is that we are at war now. We are fighting for our very existence, and we must not be mealy-mouthed. We have to tackle this question of spies. It must be tackled somehow or other, and it should be done by noble and learned Lords.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: My Lords, as Lord Desart said, not one of us wishes in the smallest degree to attack the Government; on the contrary, we want to render their action more prompt and more effective for the purposes that we have in view. But in my opinion noble Lords like the three noble Lords from Ireland who have addressed us are rendering a public service, not merely to this House but to the Government and to the country, by bringing before us their individual experience in these debates. I venture to say that this discussion will be by no means the last, any more than it is the first, that will take place in this House on the question of spies.
Noble Lords must be already thoroughly familiar with the fact that there is great and widespread uneasiness throughout the country on this matter—an uneasiness which the speeches that have so far been made from the Ministerial Benches either in this House or in the other have done nothing whatever to allay. One noble Lord comes here and speaks as to the scattering of mines on our coasts; another speaks of the circulation of seditious literature; another speaks—and we know how true it is—as to the large extent to which German money is employed in our midst. These are only slight evidences among many of a scheme of spy-mongering in this country conceived with consummate ability and secrecy, carried out with a lavish expenditure of money, and at this moment in operation on a scale which would startle every one of us if we knew its internal ramifications.
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The noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, was dissatisfied with the speech of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack. I must confess that I thought it a better speech than the one he made the other evening, though perhaps that is not giving him the praise to which he thinks he is entitled. I own, after hearing the damaging case that was made the other evening by Lord Crawford, that I was both astonished and pained to hear the noble and learned Viscount get up and argue that the test to be applied in these cases was the comfort and convenience of the enemy aliens in our midst rather than the safety of this realm. I heard that doctrine forcibly repudiated by a noble Lord sitting opposite, and I was delighted that, after that unexpected castigation, the argument was not again used by the noble and learned Viscount to-night.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I never said that. What I said was that to arrest aliens wholesale, irrespective of their guilt or innocence, irrespective of whether or not they had wives and families dependent upon them, in such a way that you might be subjecting absolutely innocent people to the greatest hardship, was a policy as inhuman as it was inefficacious.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: I do not think that was the language used by the noble and learned Viscount on the former occasion, otherwise the speech of Lord St. Davids would not have been delivered. From what he then said, the noble and learned Viscount appeared to be more concerned with considering the degree of discomfort of aliens which might be caused in these operations, and which in my view is no matter for alarm or regret, and to bestow insufficient attention on the much greater necessity of the State. My noble friend behind me called attention to the speech of the Home Secretary in the House of Commons. The general apprehension that prevails, so far from being stilled, was rather enhanced by that speech. There appeared to be an effort made by the Home Secretary to throw off the responsibility from his own shoulders on to the shoulders of the War Office. The War Office surely has enough to do at this juncture of our affairs with organising and equipping the Army, with sending it out to the field, with supplying it with

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drafts and guns and ammunition, not to be charged with the additional labour of rounding up spies on our East coast and elsewhere. And in this respect I was pleased to hear the remarks of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack just now, because they did seem to me to mark an advance from the position taken up by the Home Secretary. He talked about "vigorous co-operation between the civil and the military authorities." I heard that statement with pleasure. I only wish that the noble and learned Viscount had carried the matter a little further, and that we had heard something about a suggestion which, if I remember rightly, was made in the House of Commons and received a good deal of support the other day—namely, that a special Board should be constituted of all the various Departments and authorities concerned, to deal with this spy question; in other words, that there should be created a Spy Bureau in this country for the purposes of the war. Unless you have some new machinery to relieve the War Office of a burden which it is not able to bear, you will have these discussions from time to time, you will have these cases of discontent and alarm arising, and we shall not satisfactorily deal with the problem with which we are now confronted. Personally, therefore, I am grateful to the noble and learned Viscount for having gone further than he did the other evening, but I should have been much more grateful had he gone still further than he has now done.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, I venture to think that in some of its parts this debate serves as an illustration of the inconvenience which from time to time attaches to our procedure. A considerable and important part of this discussion has been taken up by reference to the particular case of sedition in Ireland and kindred subjects connected with that country. I quite understand that the House might well wish to discuss that subject, but my noble friend who represents the Irish Office is not in his place. He had no notice that any such discussion was likely to be brought forward, and we are therefore not prepared, on behalf of the Irish Office, to state the particular case in the form in which they might—
THE EARL OF DESART: I was at great pains to say that I was making no attack. The whole of my speech constituted an expression of opinion that these matters required consideration. I do not think I suggested that I expected a categorical answer to-day.
THE MARQUESS OP CREWE: I never supposed that the noble Earl was making an attack; in fact, all noble Lords who have spoken have expressly disavowed their intention of doing anything of the kind, and we fully accept their statement. But since this question of Ireland has been raised and has been the subject of three important speeches, it would have been an advantage for us to be able to reply with the knowledge which can only be obtained from the particular Department. I shall not, therefore, attempt to pursue the particular question as it concerns Ireland, because I am not prepared to do so. But on the one particular point which the noble Earl, Lord Meath, raised, he stated that it was a presumption, which he appeared to share, that the sowing of mines not far from the Irish coast was in some way the result of Irish sedition, the result of some combined action between the enemy and Irish spies, with the implication, as I gathered, that the mines themselves came from the Irish coast in boats of some kind belonging to Ireland. That is a suggestion which I am sure will interest the Admiralty, but it is one which I confess we have not heard made before. So far as that particular sowing of mines was concerned, our belief has been that they were sown—altogether improperly, as we think, by the obligation of the laws of war—under a neutral flag, but the particular association of them with Irish sedition is, I confess, entirely new to me.
So far as regards the general question of espionage and the punishment to be inflicted upon it, I am quite aware that no little excitement has been caused throughout the country at what has been conceived, as I think not quite fairly, as the failure of the Government to deal with sufficient energy or in a sufficiently drastic manner with cases of espionage. I may say at once—and I believe that in saying so I speak for all my colleagues—that we are not troubled by any kind of sentimentality or with a desire even to exercise mercy in cases in which action of this kind is proved either against alien

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enemies or against others in this country who may be guilty of such practices; because it is always important to bear in mind, in considering this question of espionage, that you cannot rely upon action of that sort being simply confined to alien enemies belonging to the nations with whom we are at war. It is, unfortunately, not safe to attempt so to limit the possibilities of the case, and therefore we have to include the possibility of other persons being involved. But when we speak of the punishment of these war crimes, sometimes amounting even to the crime which is the special subject of the noble and learned Earl's Question—the actual crime of high treason—we always have to remember that, even though you put the country under what is called martial law, you still demand, if not the full amount of evidence which satisfies a British jury in ordinary cases, something in the nature of positive evidence before you can convict people, even more before you can think of putting them to death. The noble Marquess, Lord Londonderry, spoke of the North-East coast with which he is so well acquainted, and foretold the possibility that the resentment against the absence of convictions might become so serious in that part of England that the ordinary processes of law might be exchanged for a system of something approaching lynch law, carried on even by the magistrates themselves.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDON DERRY: I merely said that if the Lord Lieutenant and the chairman of the county council called the meeting to which I referred, I should advocate that course.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I quite understand, and in a matter of this sort one is particularly anxious in no way to misrepresent what the noble Marquess said. Where a system of the wild justice of revenge has been instituted in other countries—for instance, in the Southern States of America., where, as we know, for many vents lynch law was of frequent occurrence—it has almost always been because juries or courts have refused to convict in the face of reasonable evidence, or where for one reason or another criminals have not been put on their trial; such wild action has been brought about; by what the people of a neighbourhood have believed to be a distinct failure of justice.
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I pass for a moment to the cases which were named the other day by the noble Earl, Lord Crawford, who is not now in his place. He mentioned cases in which, according to his statement, a serious public offence had been committed and was punished by a penalty which, as he described the case, appeared to be almost derisory. But, of course, before forming an opinion on the action which the magistrates took in that case one would have to be acquainted with all the circumstances and know what the charge really was, what the evidence was that was brought in support of it, and also what the plea advanced by the defendant was; and I have no doubt that those cases have received, since the noble Earl spoke, the careful attention of the authorities. I repeat once more, these are, and are bound to be, matters of evidence; and I cannot help thinking that at the back of the minds of some of those who criticise the Government so freely there exists the thought that, after all, in these cases, where there is great public danger, evidence does not so very much matter, and that even if you are unfortunately wrong and hang or shoot two or three people against whom nothing is really proved—well, you are sorry; it is their bad luck; but in a great public crisis you cannot afford to be quite so particular as all that. That is not an attitude which it is possible for the Government or for the legal advisers of the Government, as I venture to think, to take up.
In the first place, the existence of so great a public danger from information given to the enemy from this country—so great a public danger as to justify a regular departure from what we conceive to be the ordinary course of justice—is not sufficiently proved. People may have their own opinion as to the amount and the value of the information which is conveyed to the enemy from this country. Some people believe that an enormous quantity of information of cardinal importance is somehow or other conveyed to Germany from this country. At the other end of the scale, you will find people who believe that scarcely anything of serious importance from the point of view of our success in the war or of the loss of life of men in our Services can by any means be so conveyed. It is not easy to strike the correct balance between those extreme views, and the positive suggestion

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that has been made—it was mentioned by the noble Earl who is leading the Opposition—that a special Committee representing various Departments should be formed for the particular purpose of dealing with this spy question, is one of which I do not deny the attraction in some respects, but there are, if the noble Earl will consider, certain difficulties connected with it. At present these matters are in the hands of the naval and military authorities respectively. If you are to have a system which is approaching martial law, it is not 'easy to place it in any hands except those of the fighting Departments, and I should expect that an attempt to divide up responsibility by creating such a Committee might be somewhat resented by them.
But surely there is a further practical difficulty. Among all these aliens, of whom, by general admission, a large number are quite harmless, you would have to inquire into the circumstances of each particular case before you could decide whether such a person ought to be interned, or possibly deported, or conceivably put on his trial with the possibility of his incurring in the last resort the death penalty. My Lords, can you devise a Committee representing the different Departments which, in the space of three months, six months, or a year, could make an investigation into the case of each one of those aliens? I am arguing on the supposition that you should do what is proposed as the remedy—that every person of German or Austrian birth should be treated as a prisoner and as a more or less guilty person until the contrary is proved. Those investigations would occupy a vast amount of time, and in a great number of cases they certainly would not be worth the trouble which it would take to undertake them.
I can say, on behalf of the Government, that we do not resent, but on the contrary we welcome, any criticism that can be made of what has been done, and we also welcome any suggestions that can be made for improvement; in the method of dealing with this alien question. This question takes a somewhat different, form here from that which it takes in any of the countries on the Continent of Europe. Our insular position introduces somewhat new factors into the situation which you would not find, for instance, in France, in Germany, or in any of the belligerent countries on the Continent. So far as we can, we shall endeavour to improve
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the methods by which we are working. We do not desire to encourage what I may call a spy panic in the country, to which some organs of the Press, as I venture to think, give a quite unrestrained vent; but we do not in the least deny the gravity or the difficulty of the problem, and I myself am glad that this discussion has taken place.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I do not understand that either the noble Marquess or the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has answered my specific question. Has a system of correspondence, a very ingenious and extensive system, been discovered? Has that matter been investigated by any of the authorities, and, if so, have the allegations turned out to be accurate?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Every case in which there have been traces of anything of the kind has been investigated, with the result that the civil and military authorities have got to the bottom of everything that they can.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I would point out that there are no accessaries in treason. That which makes a person an accessary in ordinary crime makes him a principal in treason.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There is a case in which a true bill has been found.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: The noble and learned Viscount has not answered the question which I put. The Home Secretary has thrown the responsibility of the Home Office on to the shoulders of the chief constables. I ask, What are the powers of chief constables, and what are they to do?
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: A chief constable has the power which arises in a case of serious crime of arresting without warrant. But the proper person to refer these things to is the Public Prosecutor, who gives directions as to what is to be done. The chief constable has all the powers that are wielded by the constabulary in a county, and the magistrates have the power of issuing warrants. Really those things should be dealt with locally—they can be so dealt with much better; and if the noble Marquess would take vigorous action and send up the details to the Public Prosecutor these cases would be attended to.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: But that all takes times.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The noble Marquess has his police officers on the spot, and there is the bench of magistrates.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: In the meantime we have these mines being washed ashore.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Does the noble Marquess think that the Public Prosecutor or the Lord Chancellor will catch the mines more quickly than will the military and civil authorities on the spot?
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I think the reason why the Home Secretary referred to the chief constables was this. The Home Secretary is the superior of the Metropolitan Police, and therefore there is sometimes a disposition to regard him as being the head of the police all over England. That is not the case. As the noble Marquess knows very well, the police in counties are under the statutory joint committee, and their active officer is the chief constable. That, I think, was the reason why the Home Secretary, as the noble Marquess put it, placed the burden on the shoulders of tire chief constables. He merely wished to make it clear that he had nothing to do with the country police.
LORD ST. DAVIDS: My Lords, I am sorry to find myself not quite satisfied with the vigour of the Government on this particular matter. I hold very strongly the view that in most Departments of Government no war has ever been waged with greater vigour than the war which is being waged by the present Government; but as regards the danger of information going out of this country, I do not think the Government quite appreciate the public view. The noble Marquess the Leader of the House said just now that he did not think that sufficient public danger was vet proved for the Government to go out of their usual course as regards trials in these cases. I know nothing of this matter except what I see in the newspapers, but there was one item in the newspapers the other day which surely showed that information of enormous value had gone out of this country—I refer to the attempted raid on Yarmouth. We saw it stated that large enemy ships went at full
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speed through the passages of a mine field. A passage through a mine field is a crooked passage, and no enemy ship could possibly have gone at a fast speed through that crooked passage without most valuable information having left this country. It is possible, if that kind of information does go out of the country, that one item of information might lead in some case to a great national disaster. Surely this is a matter which requires exceptional treatment. With the attitude of the noble Marquess the Leader of the House I do not at all agree. He laid down the fine old English maxim that you must not punish anybody who by any conceivable chance may be innocent—
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I must protest against what my noble friend says. What I said was that a great number of persons were apparently desirous, upon this particular subject and at this particular time, to convict people without any positive evidence. I do not know whether my noble friend is one of them.
LORD ST. DAVIDS: I am certainly not one of them, and I am very glad indeed if I misunderstood the noble Marquess. But the position, it seems to me, is this. You want to see that justice is done, that you do not hang an innocent man, and that the man is given the benefit of every possible doubt. In fact, I should say that in England it is almost impossible, under ordinary circumstances, for a man to be put to death who is innocent. But in the case of spies, what you have to do is to stop information going out of this country; and surely in an emergency like this you have to lean the other way. If there is any doubt as to whether a man is innocent or guilty, that man ought not to be let go You are not trying to punish a man or wishing to be vindictive because he is a foreigner; what you are trying to do is to keep your information in your own country. That is the point of view upon which we should act. I am bound to say that that point of view was not laid down with any distinctness by the noble Marquess. Although on most things the 'Government are strong enough, on this question of aliens they are not hard enough.
I do not want in the least to make any alien suffer unnecessarily. If you put aliens into concentration camps, I hold that they should be fed as well as our

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soldiers. I would not have any unnecessary hardship inflicted upon them. But the country must not run any unnecessary risk even if these aliens do suffer hardships. All countries in time of war have to be hard. Take any successful Government, say the Government of Cromwell; that was a hard Government. Take the Government which acted under the greatest possible difficulties which any Government in the world hard to face, the Government under the Revolution in France; that Government won by reason of being a hard Government; it won by stamping out everything that was opposed to it. The Government of this country to-day has this advantage, that no class is opposed to it; we are all doing everything we can to assist it. I do think, my Lords, that His Majesty's Ministers should harden their hearts, and that on this particular matter they should adopt a much more drastic point of view.

WARM COATS FOR THE TROOPS.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether any, and if so what, steps are being taken to provide the British troops on the Continent with warm coats for the winter in excess of the warm clothing that is ordinarily supplied.
The noble Duke said: My Lords, I placed this Question on the Paper at the request of my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition, who has taken a great personal interest in matter and would have addressed the Question to the Government himself had he been able to be present. Since I placed the Question on the Paper my attention has been drawn to the fact that a considerable number of articles of various descriptions have been sent out and there is a belief that a large quantity of those articles has not yet been delivered to the troops. We are given to understand, and I believe it to be perfectly correct, that as far as food and general supplies to our troops in the field are, concerned the arrangements have been admirable, and every supply has been sent out that was necessary. I understand, however, that in connection with the additional supplies there is au impression that there has been some delay at various points en route; and if the Government could give us any information on that subject it would be welcomed.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (LORD LUCAS): My Lords, a number of what are described as fur-sleeved undercoats, which are worn underneath the service great coat, has been issued; also a large number of fur-lined great coats, and a large number of specially lined great coats of the British war type. These are being sent out at a very rapid rate. As to what occurs when they arrive there, I do not think any one is exactly in a position to say. It depends entirely upon the condition of things on the lines of communication — transport, and things of that kind. But everything that can possibly be done is being done on this side, and large supplies are going out. I may, perhaps, express on behalf of the Secretary of State for War his regret that he is not able to be here in person to answer the noble Duke's Question.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: A suggestion has been made ill many quarters —I do not know whether it has been acted upon by the Government—that goat skins and sheep skins should be used for this material.
LORD LUCAS: Yes; some of the great coats are made with sheep skins.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I should like to ask whether there is any special department under the Quartermaster-General which attends to the distribution in France. From information which reaches us it would seem that a large number of garments have been sent out, but the distribution has not been hitherto equal to the efforts that have been made to supply them. I do not know whether the noble Lord could impress on the War Office the necessity of special authorities being entrusted with the task of distribution.
LORD LUCAS: I take it that that matter is dealt with by the Quartermaster-General on the Headquarters Staff acting in conjunction with the Inspector-General on the lines of communication, and their method of dealing with it is, I suppose, to a certain extent regulated by the military exigencies.

BRITISH EAST AFRICA AND THE PERSEAN GULF
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: Lords, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he can, consistently with the public interest, give any information regarding the military operations that are proceeding in British East Africa and neighbouring parts, and I may, perhaps, be allowed to say a few words as to my reason for putting this Question. One of the features of the war in which we are engaged is that it is almost a world-wide war. Wherever the German flag is planted in different parts of the world we and our Allies have been engaged in endeavouring to pull it down. That is a necessary and a proper feature of the campaign, and the operation has been conducted with success, we are glad to say, in many parts of the world. The German flag has been hauled down, as we know, in Samoa, in Kiaochau, in German New Guinea, in some of the Islands of the Pacific, and we have every reason to believe and hope that it will not be flying very much longer in German South-West Africa.
But as regards British East Africa, where there are very extensive German possessions, extending for many hundreds of miles and covering many millions of acres co-terminous with our own, although military operations have been proceeding, scarcely a word—I think I may say not one word—of information has been vouchsafed to the British public. It was only by accident that I myself was aware that a considerable number of Indian troops were operating in that part of the world; and the nature of the fighting, which must have been severe, was really brought home to the British public for the first time only a few days ago by the publication in the newspapers of an extensive list of casualties. I am aware of a case where a parent heard for the first time of the part of the world in which his son was being engaged by reading the news of the death of the officer on this distant field of battle. The full extent of those casualties I do not for the moment bear in mind, but I think I aril not wrong in saving that the number of killed and wounded has been considerable.
In this position of affairs I was somewhat startled to read only yesterday in The Times newspaper the letter of an officer serving at the front in British East
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Africa, which, as it may have escaped the attention of some of your Lordships, you will perhaps permit me to read. This letter was written on October 11—that is to say, five weeks ago; and the writer expressed himself as follows—
"I have been away at the front for six weeks, fighting—
In other words, the war was already in existence six weeks before that date—
"I volunteered in the East Africa Rifles as a trooper. They then said that they wanted to form a Somali troop to go to the Front at once, so — applied for me. So I went with him down to the Tsavo as a corporal acting as an officer. We had one quite big fight, when we were attached to one company of the Kings African Rifles. The Germans, about 150 of them, very nearly surrounded us at dawn. —, who was in command of the king's African Rifles, got killed in the first ten minutes, but we drove the Germans back and made them absolutely run. We got fifteen made them absolutely run. We got fifteen of them and wounded eight, and Germans got six of our soldiers, seven of out mules, and wounded four. We then had to hold the place for two days until we were relieved by No. 2 Company of the K.A.R. People don't seem to realise at home what a big thing this is our here. The Germans have got anything from 6,000 to 12,000 troops and lots of guns."
My Lords, we have had no opportunity of realising whether it is a big thing or a small thing over here, because we Know nothing at all about it. I, of course, have not the slightest desire to press the Secretary of State to give us any information which he considers it necessary in the interests of the Government or military operations to withhold; but I submit that if large forces are engaged in that part of the world, if the danger that is being met is a considerable one, as appears to be the case, and if the number of casualties is large, it would relieve a great deal of legitimate anxiety at home if we could hear something about the operations. The fighting, as I understand, is not merely in British East Africa or on the borders of British East Africa. I believe it extends to the British territory lying to the south of the Province which we call British East Africa—that is to say, the neighbourhood of Lake Tanganyika and on the frontiers of Nyassaland. Where exactly fighting is taking place I do not know, because nothing has appeared about it in the papers; but there, again, I fun under the impression that I have seen a list of casualties recorded in the Press.
Although the part of rite world to which I am next about to refer is not contiguous to British East Africa, and

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therefore is not, perhaps, fairly covered by my Question on the Paper, yet I should be grateful if the Secretary of State could also tell us something about the fighting that is also proceeding in another and a very important area of conflict,—I mean the Persian Gulf. Here the only information that we have we owe to the Government themselves. About a week ago, I think it was, they published the important and, to me, joyful tidings that they had taken the Turkish fort and port of Fao at the mouth of the Slat-el-Arab, which is the estuary of the Tigris and the Euphrates. But yesterday I read in the Press that the Secretary of State for India, the noble Marquess, had himself authorised the communication of tine following announcement regarding military operations now in progress at the head of the Persian Gulf:—
"On the 11th inst., at 5.30 a.m., the Turks made a determined attack on our outposts, but were held in check by the 117th Mahrattas and finally routed by a counter-attack made by the 20th Infantry, supported by fire from a mountain battery. Our casualties were few; those of the enemy at least 80. On the 14th further troops arrived from India under the command of Lieutenant-General Sir A. Barrett—
The large scale of the operations is sufficiently indicated by the fact that you take one of the most capable Indian officers and place him in command of what is obviously a military expedition of some size. The official statement goes on to say—
"On the 15th the latter(Sir A. Barrett), hearing that a strong force of the enemy with mountain artillery were occupying a post about four miles distant, sent General Delamain with three battalions and two mountain batteries to eviet them. After a sharp action in which his Majesty's ships 'Espiegle' and 'Odin' co-operated, this was successfully accomplished. The enemy's entrenched camp was captured and his losses were very heavy. Several prisoners, including a Turkish major, were captured and two of the enemy's machine guns were destroyed. Our casualties were two officers wounded; rank and file, eight killed and 51 wounded".
It is obvious that military operations of a rather important and serious nature have been going on there. There is not the slightest indication where they are taking place, except that it is in the area of he Persian Gulf. I assume that it must be somewhere at the upper end of the Gulf Again I do not want to press the noble Marquess to give information upon this which should be withheld, but if with regard to the operations either in British East Africa or the Persian Gulf he can give us any information I am sure we shall be grateful to receive it.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, it is evident, from what the noble Earl has said, that he fully understands the nature of the limitations that have to be set upon the giving of information in respect of military operations in different parts of the world. It is, of course, clear, if one reflects, that those limitations do not apply with absolute equality in all areas; but, on the other hand, it is probably safer and wiser to lay down the general rule and to say that speaking broadly the sort of information which is given with regard to operations in Europe must remain as the only kind of information which can be given about operations in other parts of the world. Therefore the noble Earl and his friends will, I am sure, understand that the account which I am about to give of what generally has occurred in East Africa is as far as the Government are able to go at the moment.
As the noble Earl pointed out, German East Africa is a large and important Colony. It covers, I think, some 350,000 square miles. It has, of course, a large native population, and it has a white, German, population of between 5,000 and 6,000; and in that connection it is important to note, although I do not know what the proportion of the sexes may be, that in a planter's country of that kind the proportion of males, and probably of males of fighting age, must be infinitely larger than such a population would indicate in a European country. Those forces there, those white inhabitants of German East Africa, a large proportion of whom it must be remembered must have served in the German Army, have been reinforced from different sources; we are told, to some extent, by Reservists from other parts of the world who were brought there because, I suppose, there was doubt or difficulty about bringing them to Europe. There may have been some despatch of Regular troops even from the East, but of that I am not quite certain; but I believe that some naval forces were landed also from the Far East. The Germans in East Africa are well provided with guns in the ordinary sense and also with a number of machine guns; and therefore, as the House will see, they constitute what in America I believe is called a formidable proposition.
British East Africa is not quite so large. It covers, I think, about 250,000 square miles. The white population is somewhere

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about the same, rather less I imagine, and, of course, it does not contain the military element which the German Colony must contain. In both countries there is a native force. In German East Africa there is a force of native infantry and of native police numbering altogether several thousands. In British East Africa there is a considerable force of similar police, and also a body, though not so large, of the force which the noble Earl mentioned—a quite efficient force, well officered, and by no means badly manned, the King's African Rifles. It was clear, therefore, that as matters stood at the beginning of the war our position in East Africa could not be an altogether secure one. The initial position of the Germans was stronger than ours. We also had to remember that German East Africa borders both on Nyassaland, as the noble Earl has pointed out, and also on Uganda, in each of which there is a force—in Uganda some King's African Rifles, and in Nyassaland a small force and also a small proportion of white men who act as volunteers. But those colonies also constituted relatively a source rather of weakness than of strength as compared with German East Africa. It was therefore necessary to reinforce the colony from India, and at an early date a small force was sent that was afterwards considerably increased. Fighting, I think, actually began up on the Western side before any of the fresh Indian troops had arrived there, and it has been continuing at a great number of different points since, with various forces engaged and with somewhat varying results. And as we learned more of the German preparations it became necessary further to reinforce from India. Of the different actions that have taken place, no less than seven—small actions of different kinds—have taken place within the confines of British East Africa. There was one, to which I think the noble Earl alluded, in Nyassaland, and there have been others on the borders.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: That was on the Tsavo in British East Africa.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: Yes; but I think the noble Earl also alluded to some fighting having taken place in Nyassaland about which he said casualty lists had appeared, which was, I think, the case.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: Yes.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: Those different operations have not taken place without considerable losses to ourselves. In one particular case, I am sorry to say, an attack was made in the South on a very strong position which was powerfully held by the enemy with a number of guns and machine guns. Very heavy casualties were suffered by our troops there without their achieving the object for which they were immediately striving. The total casualties in all the operations in East Africa during the two months amount to something over 900.
At an early stage I noticed that some of the German publicists, speaking of the fighting that was likely or sure to take place in or in the neighbourhood of their colonies, pointed out that the result of those actions, which they seemed to assume would in all eases be unfavourable to themselves, could not affect the ultimate result of the war. That, of course, is quite true; the fate of all the different German possessions in different parts of the world must depend upon the ultimate settlement at the close of the war. But it is necessary for us to preserve the position of Great Britain as the paramount country in Central and Southern Africa. Therefore the Union of South Africa has undertaken a task of its own; and in East Africa we are bound to maintain our position there and to repel with all the forces we can muster any attacks which are made by our German neighbours, and, where occasions are favourable and the forces available make it possible, to attack in our turn. That is all the information which I am able to give the noble Earl. He will understand that I do not mention the names of the particular places at which various actions have occurred or the particular troops which have been employed, although I here is no harm in mentioning some of the particular Indian regiments engaged, and I can do so if it is desired.
The noble Earl passed on to a different part of the world and asked me some questions about the Persian Gulf, as to which we have been rather more handsome, as he admitted, in the information we have given. So much so that, owing to the difficulty of communication with those parts of the world where the telegraph service is not very easily conducted, that which we have put in the newspapers

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and which the noble Earl read out about he operations at the head of the Persian Gull— the noble Earl is right in thinking that the operations that have taken place are in the immediate neighbourhood of the Shat-el-Arab—practically covers all that we know ourselves; and I fear, therefore, that I have very little more information that I can give the noble Earl. But, may I say this much, that when Turkey went to war with us one of her first steps, carrying out, indeed, what had been her apparent policy some little time previously, was to assert herself at the head of the Persian Gulf in a part of the world where we, as is known, have a yen, special interest, and where also our Ally, the Sheikh of Mohammerah, who is, as we know, under Persian suzerainty but who is on special terms of intimacy with the British Government, was severely threatened by the Turks. They destroyed the telegraph station at Fao, and announced their intention of stopping the navigation of the Shat-el-Arab. It was clearly impossible for us, not merely in view of our positive and actual interests in that region but also in view of the necessity of keeping up our clue name in the minds of the Arab world, to tolerate such violent proceedings as those. Therefore we thought it right to send an expedition of considerable strength under a distinguished General—one of our best Indian officers, as the noble Earl has pointed out—in order to make it clear to the Turks that they cannot venture to assert themselves in that region in the manner in which they have been attempting to do. And I say with the utmost confidence that a step of that kind receives as much approval, if not more, in the Moslem world in India as it, does in any other part of the British Empire.
THE EARL OF MAYO: Might I ask the noble Marquess whether there will be published a list of the casualties in the operations in British East Africa. He mentioned 900.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I think that most of the British officers' casualties have already appeared in the newspapers.
THE EARL OF MAYO: I mean not only officers but white settlers who have enlisted as privates. I have a relation out there.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I have no doubt that their names will appear in due course. As a matter of fact, I think the nines of some of the volunteers have appeared already.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: I should like to thank the noble Marquess for the information he has given me in reply to my Question, and to say that we on this side of the House earnestly wish success to His Majesty's arms in the two theatres of conflict to which reference has been made.

INDIA AND HER TROOPS.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: My Lords, the further Question which stands in my name on the Paper is to ask the Secretary of State for India whether any attempt is made, by daily telegrams to the Viceroy or otherwise, to supply the public of India with information concerning the progress of the war, and particularly the doings of Indian troops; and if this has not been done, whether steps can he taken to that effect.
The reasons for putting this Question and commending it to your Lordships' attention are, I think, obvious. Since the war began we have in this country been strongly pressing upon the Government the publication of more information with regard to the achievements, though not, of course, the dispositions, of the troops; and there are many in this House and elsewhere who have thought that the reticence which has been observed by the Government in this respect has been both excessive and unwise. But any one who has served in India—and there are some noble Lords in this House who have—will agree that those remarks apply to India with an even more exaggerated force than they do to this country. Remember that in the first place India, by sending this huge force to Europe, has taken an entirely novel and striking departure. The despatch of this immense number of Indian troops produced a thrill throughout the world greater than anything of a similar nature that I can remember in 111V tine. You may be certain that a similar excitement was manifested in India; and the movements of this large force—larger, I think, than Many of your Lordships have an idea—drawn as it is from the country villages

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of the whole of the Northern parts of India at any rate, excite an interest there quite as great as the interest which the movements of our own troops arouse in the various country districts in England.
These troops in coming to Europe have rendered and are rendering a very substantial service to the national cause, and I submit to your Lordships that they are entitled to the simple and obvious reward of having their achievements narrated to their fellow-countrymen whom they have left at home. I saw a letter from India only yesterday, written by a resident in one of the great towns, and he said that the newspapers there, in so far as they contain news from the field of war in Europe, were filled with stories of German atrocities and German brutalities. There was nothing whatever about the achievements of the Indian troops. Now any one acquainted with the East knows that the last thing you want to do is to terrorise the public by narrating the misdeeds of the enemy. What you want to do is to encourage them by the record of the brave deeds of their own people. I submit that the more you satisfy them in that respect the better it will be for their own spirit and endurance in the conflict.
There is another reason why we should be particularly careful about this. All of as who have been in India or who have served in that Dependency know that India, in common with most of the countries of the East, is susceptible to false rumour to a degree that is scarcely credible to a European who has never left this Continent. The' slightest stories are believed, the most ridiculous impressions created, and the most absurd panics arise almost out of nothing. The proceedings of the "Emden" in the Bay of Bengal were the source of not merely idle rumours but absolute panic in some of the cities in the neighbourhood of that coast. A bazaar story in the East is really a byword for the extreme of imagination and falsehood that the brain of man can conceive; and therefore, as I argue, you ought to be particularly solicitous about giving information to a country where those panics are likely to occur.
One other reason I would urge for giving information to India—and again it arises oat of the psychology of the people. The
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Indian of all creeds, and I think of all classes, is extraordinarily mercurial in temperament; the barometer of his feelings goes up and down with startling rapidity; he is either at a pitch of elation over good news, or of depression over bad news. What you want to do throughout this war, particularly if it is going to be long as many of us think, is to maintain a steady level of Indian interest and Indian enthusiasm. The excitement of sending away troops will soon subside; stories of deaths and woundings will come home; there will not be the glare and glitter and sound of warfare, and the spirits of the people will fall to a low ebb. On the other hand, if you keep them supplied with news, particularly if you send encouraging news from the Front, you will do a great deal to keep up their spirits throughout the struggle. My suggestion is, if it has not already been done, that an official telegram of what is going on on the battlefields in Europe, particularly of the doings of the Indian troops, should be sent to the Viceroy as oft en as von can, and the Viceroy should be asked, with the large administrative machinery at his disposal, to communicate it to the provincial districts where the information might be put up at, say, the police stations or wherever it is thought best., in order that the country people in the districts and the towns may know day by day what their comrades are doing in the field.
LORD SYDENHAM: My Lords, may I say a few words in support of what has been said by the noble Earl. There are two lines of Virgil which seem to me particularly applicable to the present situation—
Fama, malum quo non aliud velocius ullum,
Mobilitate viget, viresque acquirit eundo.
Those lines might, I think, be well studied by the members of the Press Bureau at the present time. It must not be forgotten that the "Emden" stories and such rumours pass through India like lightning. As the noble Earl has said, those of you who have not lived in India can form no idea, not only of their strangeness, but of their apparent incredibility. A story goes like a flash through the bazaars, and then spreads far and wide. We do not know who starts it, and we do not know how far it goes and what harm it may do. That process is going on even in normal times, and of course it is going on to a

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very much greater extent at the present moment.
The noble Earl alluded to the story of the "Emden," but only a few weeks ago a much stranger story of the "Emden" passed through India. It was said, after the "Emden" had accomplished an abortive bombardment of Madras, that she was passing up the river Jumna and would shortly reach Allahahad. Another story was that the whole Royal Family had passed through Bombay to seek refuge in Delhi from the war because the Germans had already got into England. Such stories can only he met in one way, and that is by the furnishing, I hope at least every week, of an official bulletin to be published in every large town and every district and taluka town, and also translated in all the vernaculars and distributed throughout the bazaars. In that way we may stop a very great and real danger in India, because we cannot here realise what extraordinary things the Indian will believe, how quickly he yields to depression, and how very liable he is to panic.
It has been said in this House this evening that German gold had been spent in Ireland. I am quite certain that German gold for some years has been spent in India. And I think I can understand now some facts which puzzled me very greatly while I was in India. Among the stories that have been circulated there are some of a distinctly sinister aspect, and I trace those to the German agents who have been spending their money throughout India. Therefore I hope that the noble Marquess will tell us that some arrangement of the sort suggested has already been made, or, if not, that it will soon be made and continued with out intermission through out the war.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, before the noble Marquess answers, may I press one point beyond that of publishing real news in India. I refer to the absolute necessity of giving more mention to individual acts of gallantry and to the actions of particular regiments. It is almost impossible to understand why the system which has obtained in all previous wars has been omitted in the present war. It was the custom of the Duke of Wellington in the Peninsula to make these mentions; it was constantly done in the Crimean War; it was done by Lord Wolseley, and published constantly during the Egyptian War;
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and it was the practice both of Lord Roberts and of Lord Kitchener during the South African War. Yet although we know that certain Indian regiments have distinguished themselves in two or three important actions recently, not one single word has, so far as we know, been allowed officially to transpire of the actions in which they have borne so distinguished a part. I myself happened, in talking to some of the wounded soldiers, to hear from them of the magnificent charge made by a particular Indian regiment who came up and rescued them at a critical moment and drove the Germans back a considerable distance.
I am quite certain that those who know India a great deal better than I do would bear me out in saving that nothing could so stimulate the spirit of the people as the knowledge of the distinction won by a particular Indian regiment and by the Indian Forces generally. Since we discussed the matter before, attention has been called to the fact that perhaps the most brilliant action by our troops in the war, the repulse of the Prussian Guard last week, has been allowed to go with the scanty chronicle that—
"A General ordered his Division to fix bayonets and succeeded in restoring the line."
We have a right to know who the General was. And why should the honour won by that Division be concealed? I do not know whether there were Indian regiments in it or not; but I think it is due to the Army, and it is due to the taxpayer, and, above all, it is due to those who have near relatives and friends at the Front and who are mourning the loss of others, that they should be at least allowed to know the acts of heroism and gallantry that have distinguished their friends and the regiments of which we are proud.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I can assure the noble Earl who asked this Question and the other two noble Lords who have spoken that, from the first when the Indian troops were ordered to Europe, it was in the minds of all those who have Indian experience that some special steps should be taken for the purpose of supplying authentic information in India itself. All that has been said by the various noble Lords who have spoken as to the Indian character and the flight of rumour in India is no doubt true. But one is tempted, after what we have recently known during the

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last few months, to wonder whether this country may not claim an almost equal fame in the dissemination and the acceptance of bazaar rumour. But be that as it may, the importance of supplying authentic information to India cannot possibly be disputed. I may, in passing, say that I was told from India at quite an early stage the story of the doings of a German battleship even more remarkable than those mentioned by my noble friend on the Cross Benches [Lord Sydenham]. This story was that a German battleship of the largest size had proceeded up the Indus a great distance and had finally gone aground and been captured by an Indian Cavalry regiment—a particular touch which, I consider, added to the charm of the story. That was believed, I think, in many quarters.
As a matter of fact, all the British official announcements about the war from the very first, regarding both naval and military operations, have been sent by telegram to the Viceroy for insertion in the Indian Press —both the English-owned and Indian-owned Press. Since the beginning of this month a News Bulletin has been telegraphed every day, which is compiled under the supervision of a distinguished Indian ex-official from our own official statements, from the French Government's statements, from the Russian statements as they appear, and from any other sources which are considered to be trustworthy. The Viceroy has made special arrangements for the dissemination of news in various ways, including some of those which have been mentioned in the course of the debate. In addition to that, three officers have been deputed to serve with the staff of the Indian Expeditionary Force. Their sole duty is to supply accounts of the doings of the Indian troops. These accounts as they are received at somewhat uncertain intervals, are telegraphed to the Viceroy for him to disseminate in India in the same way.
The noble Viscount who spoke last touched on the more general subject of the supply of information concerning particular regiments and even particular individuals, and he stated that a departure had been made from all previous precedents in that respect in the course of the present war. That I have no reason to dispute. But it is important to note that the departure is being made by all countries engaged in this war. I was told the other day by a Frenchman that the French Government viewed with some amazement the freedom with
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which we allowed news to be published in our Press as compared with the reticence which they exercised themselves. I did not hear it from a Government source, and therefore I have no reason to quote it as being authoritative. Neither the German nor the Russian authorities name in their public Press any one of the units engaged in ally part of the theatre of war, or the names of the commanding officers. It is undoubtedly considered that information of that kind is of value to the enemy in this particular war, and that therefore it ought to be concealed. In one of the previous conversations we have had this evening great stress has been laid upon the importance of keeping all information away from the enemy; and it is understood, I take it, that in this particular matter if correspondents, or official scribes, note the names of the particular units engaged in particular operations at all near the time at which the operations have taken place, thereby the enemy is able to piece together a puzzle and learn the composition of the whole force which it is the object on each side to conceal from the opponent.
All this seems a little obscure to a civilian, but it is a view which is held by the military authorities in all the countries, and they-are the responsible people to whom we have to bow. I do not think myself that it can possibly be the case that the mention of a particular Indian unit in India could be held to have any deleterious effect upon the course of the campaign; and I have understood—but I will make myself still more sure on the point—that in the communications that are sent to India no direct embargo is placed upon the naming of some particular regiment which has distinguished itself on a particular occasion. Names of places, no doubt, would still have often to be carefully omitted in order that news might not be telegraphed back 'from India which by any possibility could be of service to the enemy. I can assure the House that we are doing the best we can to keep India informed, being entirely convinced, as noble Lords opposite are, of the importance from all points of view—from the point of view of allaying the anxiety of those who have relations in the field and also from the public point of view—of keeping Indian opinion on the line on which it is now, I hope, steadily set; and therefore we shall continue to do our best to send, and see to the distribution of, all the information that can possibly be sent.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Marquess for his reply, but I hope he will not think me unduly persistent if I venture to suggest that the preparations which he describes are really not adequate to the case. How does he propose to meet the case we put before the House? in the first place, he tells us that in the India Office there is a competent staff which, from the composite information that comes in from Russia, from France, and from our own forces, makes an abstract of the general movements of the combatant forces on the field of war, and that is sent out to India. Believe me, that is not in the least what India wants. India does not want the kind of report of which we are ourselves complaining in this country. The only good news that we have here are in the despatches of Sir John French, which are usually and necessarily about a month behindhand. From the carefully guarded military reports from day to day of the position of affairs on the field of battle we can gather very little. A condensed or combined account from all these European sources will not interest India in the slightest degree. What they want is something personal to India.
I pass to the method which the noble Marquess suggests for meeting that need. He told us, I think, that two or three officers have been sent to the Front whose special duty it is to note the operations and the exploits of Indian regiments. The probability is that they will only report at somewhat rare intervals, and I imagine that their reports have to come here and be edited or at any rate supervised in the India Office or in the War Office, and that only after those operations have been performed is the information to be sent out to India. Now, cannot we accelerate that process a little? Is not what is wanted the very thing which the noble Marquess admitted in his concluding sentences to be legitimate and to be attended with no danger—namely, the mention without place and without date of particular regiments, their services, and their deeds? Why could not these three officers at the Front have the authority to telegraph any exploit of this description home, and why should it not be known in India within a week or even three days of the day on which the gallant deed was performed?
I have only one remark to make about the general position taken up by the
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noble Marquess in the concluding parts of his speech. Is it really the case that, because it appears to be the custom or the tradition of the Russian, French, or German or other Continental Armies, we are therefore to be precluded from following the invariable practice of our Armies in bygone days and drawing attention to the achievements of our men? The rule which the noble Marquess has laid down is one that has been violated by the General commanding in the field himself. One of the first incidents of this campaign was some peculiarly gallant exploit performed, I think, by the Suffolks. Field-Marshal Sir John French made some sort of public announcement, or speech, congratulating them on their valour, which he said would be known within a few days throughout England. It was not known, because his despatch did not come for some weeks afterwards, and when it came their name was not mentioned. Take the case of the London Scottish. By an exception the extraordinary valour of the London Scottish was known at once; but on the tenet of the noble Marquess, that was giving information to the enemy because the enemy would have been able to locate the position of this particular regiment upon the battlefield. I do not want to press the matter unduly or to be unfair to the Government, but it seems to me that the principle which is laid down here, and which was also laid down by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons the other day, is not one to which they consistently adhere; and even if there is anything to be said for it in the case of troops from England, it certainly does not apply to the case of the troops from India. I hope the noble Marquess will not think we are unduly persistent if we ask for a more rapid and accelerated despatch of news to India.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I will certainly see what acceleration is possible in regard to this particular Indian news. In cases where news can be telegraphed out and it is important that it should be telegraphed, I certainly think that it ought to go as soon as possible. But in many cases, particularly if it is a long descriptive account, it can go by post, because news of that kind is acceptable and read with almost as great eagerness if it is received some weeks after the event. As regards the general question, what the noble Earl opposite calls "my rule" is not my rule

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at all, or indeed the rule of the Government. As the Prime Minister pointed out in another place the other day, we with the smaller Army are fighting in France by the side of a much greater French Army, and it is considered right, and I think the country here would so consider it, that we should conform precisely to the rule which the French lay down in this particular respect; and that is what we are doing, with possibly occasional exceptions.

SOLDIERS' DEPENDANTS.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON VISCOUNT MIDLETON rose to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is intended to appoint a Committee to inquire into the allowances to dependants of soldiers; and whether, in view of the large number of members of this House experienced in this question, it would be possible to appoint a Joint Committee of both Houses so as to ensure as general support as possible to any scheme which may be recommended.
The noble Viscount said: My Lords, I do not propose to delay your Lordships for more than a moment, or to attempt any argument with regard to this much vexed question of allowances to the wives, widows, and dependants of soldiers. I do not know who will represent the War Office in this matter, but what I would venture to put to him very strongly is this, that there is no question that the whole consideration of this matter must be reopened. Everybody admits that the circulars that have been published up to the present have left the question in great confusion, and there is in a great many quarters a strong disposition to challenge the intermediate decision arrived at by the Government. What I would specially urge is that this House should be allowed to bear some share in the decision of the question and for this reason. The officers who are now responsible at the War Office are overburdened with work. It is quite enough for them to have to do with the carrying on of the war without being called upon to sit for hours on committees to consider what may be the exact effect of certain allowances on certain classes.
But this House happens to be singularly equipped with officers of superior rank who are in close touch with the soldiers and have been so all their lives. For instance, there is the noble and gallant Field-Marshal who moved the Address
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the other night (Lord Methuen); and there would not be the slightest difficulty in naming officers from this House who would be able to give as good an opinion as to the effect of these allowances as any officer now serving in the War Office. Then, again, it happens that in the House of Commons there is not a single individual who has ever served in the War Office in any capacity except those on the Government Bench; whereas in this House we have numerous ex-officials of the War Office who have for years studied these questions and have themselves been responsible in many cases—such as the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack and my noble friend the Leader of the Opposition—whose opinions would be of value. In addition, as a very strong moral tone has been given to the discussion by the introduction for the first time of Government allowances in cases where there is no legitimate connection, I think that it would be of great value if one member of the Episcopal Bench were allowed to serve, more especially as on all sides a ad in all parties there is a disposition to deal generously with all these relationships of soldiers. At the same time it is admitted that some regard must be had to the enormous non-combatant charge which must be involved, and to the effect that over-generosity in certain directions may have on the future well-being of the Army.
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, before the noble Lord who is going to do so replies I should like to say a few words. I have had to do with this question from the time that the war began to the present hour, in addition to having heard a great deal about it at the time of the Boer War ten or twelve years ago. Personally I have taken pains to give a great many hours and days of work to it, and I have been referred backwards and forwards from Committee to Committee, from one Government Department to another, and to the various high officials who have for the time being taken this matter in hand. The result left upon my mind, after a great deal of personal intercourse with men who have treated me in a most kindly and courteous manner, has been a feeling of pity and commiseration for overworked men who have had, erroneously as I venture to think, put upon them in connection with this matter a burden which they are incompetent to

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carry owing to their overwork and their total lack of knowledge of the working out in detail of these things, which belong not really to war questions or directly and primarily to military questions at all, but to social and domestic work, because they relate to the home of the soldier—work such as the Local Government Board and other bodies are a great deal more competent to deal with.
Almost invariably when the question has been raised the answer has been given that another circular is coming out. Yes, they do come out. There have been about eight on this subject already, and I have three in my hand now. But those circulars are absolutely inconsistent with one another. They get out of their difficulties in part by each one having what I may call a promissory character and by studious avoidance of a date. There is no date given, but I have discovered, by a kind of cipher reading from the marks of the printers, the chronological order of the documents. This is the kind of thing which conies out—
"It must be clearly understood that the orders and regulations made and to be made will alone be the documents that will be decisive in this matter as to any points which may arise in particular cases, this memorandum being no more than a presentation to Parliament of the main lines of the scheme."
I think the next regulation says that before the particular allowance is made it will be necessary for the soldier to do so and so. It is added, "Fuller particulars are published separately." But there is no indication where we are to get them, and I cannot get them myself. Yesterday or to-day another circular appeared which is absolutely inconsistent with the circulars which have gone before dealing with this subject. It does not surprise me, because to my knowledge these circulars emanate from men who have obviously and necessarily very much larger questions to consider and who find it impossible to give the time to this one that they ought.
I will give your Lordships a concrete example of the kind of thing that happens. It has been arranged in the circulars from the beginning—and most properly, let me say—that the wife of a man who is serving at the Front or at home shall have, not a claim to consideration, but an absolute right as a portion of the obligation which the country undertakes—a right to receive the proper and suitable aid which she requires. I endorse that with all my heart. But the circulars have gone on to say that
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a similar allowance shall be made to unmarried mothers of a soldier's children. I am not quarrelling with the principle of an allowance being made to those who have been really dependent on the soldier even though there is no marriage tie between the man and the woman. That is a large and very complicated and delicate question. I am prepared to enter with the most entire agreement into the discussion of arrangements under which the woman thus circumstanced should have proper help. But see what happens. In the rule about the wife it is laid down that if she is to claim as a wife the marriage must have taken place before the war. A certain number of women who make the claim have been married since the war to the men with whom they had been living before. We ask, Does the allowance thereby cease? I have heard two official answers. One is, Yes. I have seen another answer stating that the War Office will take care that this apparent injustice, or irregularity, shall not follow. That is merely one example of the kind of confusion which is prevailing in regard to the whole matter and emphasises the need of its being properly gone into.
I understand that a Committee is going to be appointed by the Government to deal with this matter. It will consist, I am afraid, of very busy men who are theorists rather than men of practical experience in handling questions of relief given to poor homes. As to the manner in which relief is to be given, one of the three circulars says that dependants who are unmarried are only to receive the allowances on the recommendation of what is known as the Old-Age Pensions Committee of the neighbourhood or district. A less suitable body in some parts of England to do this particular work could hardly be imagined. That Committee exists to look into statistical points as to whether documents are right or wrong, whether an age has been fraudulently given, and so on. In most cases it is administered by min and usually by a clerk—a very competent man, no doubt, but obviously not a suitable authority to go into the question of the relationship to the soldier of the young woman who is pleading for aid as a dependant. To work it through those Committees as they exist is impracticable. It may appear all right on paper, but when put into practice it will break down. On comparatively few of those Committees are women sitting, and I claim that in this particular matter you must have women

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to do that which the circulars say should be done if you are to have it done properly. I give those merely as examples of the confusion which is now prevailing. And I venture to say that the thought of another Committee going to consider it, composed of prominent members of the House of Commons, does not afford me very much comfort, unless that Committee is going to take counsel with, and to be guided by, some of those who are holding less official posts but who are more conversant with the workings of a matter which is primarily social and not military, and I venture to hope that this strengthening may be of a thorough and far-reaching kind.
LORD LUCAS: My Lords, I think my best answer to the speech of the most rev. Primate—I do not want to go in detail into the various points which he raised—is to say that a Committee is going to be set up to deal with a certain number of the present anomalies and to work out this scheme in full. It is suggested by the noble Viscount, Lord Midleton, that that Committee might well include members of this House. It is fully recognised by the Government that there are noble Lords who have interested themselves in these matters and who have a very wide experience of them. But the question is so largely one of finance that it has to be regarded as falling within the province of the House of Commons rather than of this House, and for that reason the Committee which the Prime Minister is to-day moving to set up will be a Committee of the House of Commons. The most rev. Primate was doubtful as to whether the Committee was going to be of a practical character. The Committee, I understand, is going to be one thoroughly representative of the House of Commons, and we may be perfectly confident that the Prime Minister, who has interested himself in this question, knows fully its intricacies and difficulties and will appoint a suitable Committee.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, I am sorry to hear the decision of the Government. In the circumstances it seems that the only opportunity this House will have of making itself heard on this subject will he by a Motion of this House; and therefore I think it best to give notice that I will on some early day call attention to the whole question, and especially to the extremely unsatisfactory nature of the Resolution Put forward by the Treasury and by the War Office a few days ago.
LORD LUCAS: May I, with all deference to the noble Viscount, suggest that perhaps the more practical way of doing it would be to state a case to the Committee.
EARL CURZON OF KEDLESTON: My Lords, my noble friend raised the question of the composition of the Committee, and that was the point, rather than the creation of the Committee, which was the subject of the speech of the most rev. Primate. This House contains a large number of men with practical experience in this matter, and also a large number of military officers and military experts who would be only too glad to place their services at the disposal of the Government; and for those reasons the Committee should be a Committee of both Houses of Parliament. The noble Lord, in reply to that, says, This is a matter of finance, and therefore the House of Commons conceive it to be within their privilege. It is rather a pitiful thing to have this old question of privilege trotted out on an occasion of this sort. This is a matter involving the social welfare of the people, and there are as many members of this House as competent to advise on the welfare of the people as there are of the House of Commons. His Majesty's Government are making a great mistake. We can give them great assistance, and, unless the decision is irrevocable, I would ask that the Leader of the House should represent the matter to the Prime Minister and say that there is a strong view upon it in this House. We shall be very sorry indeed if we are put off on the narrow technical plea that has been advanced by the noble Lord.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I will, of course, convey to the Prime Minister the representation which the noble Earl desires to make on behalf of himself and his noble friends. But I think it is not quite just to sit this down as a question of privilege as between the two Houses, although it wears that outward form as regards the composition of the Committee. The real fact surely is rather this, that the House of Commons has to be the guardian of the public purse. It is very easy in a matter of this kind—no amount of experience either of the Army or of affairs generally will save people from this—and very tempting to be generous at the expense of the taxpayer and thereby settle a question offhand for the time being amid any amount of applause from the Press and from the public generally. But

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the function of the House of Commons—although probably it is not a function which it always exercises with great success —is to look after the taxpayer in a matter of this kind; and it was on that special ground, rather than on the general ground of privilege as between the two Houses, that my right hon. friend the Prime Minister reached the decision that a single Committee rather than a Joint Committee would be most appropriately set up on this occasion. But, as I have said, I will of course represent to my right hon. friend the expression of opinion which the noble Earl has made.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Select Committee appointed: The Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord President, the Lord Privy Seal and the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

D. Devonshire.

D. Rutland.

D. Northumberland.

M. Lansdowne.

M. Bath.

M. Cholmondeley.

M. Lincolnshire.

E. Chesterfield. (L. Steward.)

E. Essex.

E. Stanhope.

E. Waldegrave.

E. Onslow.

E. Camperdown.

E. Halsbury.

E. Plymouth.

V. Gordon. (E. Aberdeen.)

V. Churchill.

L. Barnard.

L. Balfour.

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L. Ribblesdale.

L. Colchester.

L. Roseberay. (E. Rosebery.)

L. Poltimore.

L. Kintore (E. Kintore.)

L. Monk Bretton.

L. Welby.

L. Burghclere.

L. Atkinson.

L. Sanderson.

L. Colebrooke.

L. Desart. (E. Desart.)

L. Emmott.

The Committee to meet on Tuesday next, at a quarter before Four o'clock.

PACK-BERESFORD'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons for Copy of the Minutes of Evidence taken before this House; together with the proceedings and the documents deposited in the case: Ordered to be communicated with a request that they may be returned.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I understand that there is no business on the Paper until Tuesday next. Therefore, if it is agreeable to noble Lords opposite, I will move the adjournment of the House until that day.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, motion agreed to.
House adjourned at five minutes before Seven o'clock, till Tomorrow, Two o'clock.