ARTICLES OF COMMERCE (RETURNS, &c.) BILL. (Hansard, 27 August 1914)

§ LORD WIMBORNE
My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, which is an emergency measure to give powers in connection with the present war to obtain information as to stocks of articles of commerce and for enabling possession to be taken of any such articles unreasonably withheld—

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
The noble Lord is moving the Second Reading of a Bill which has only a moment ago been brought up from the other House. I am not aware that all our Standing Orders have been suspended, and that we have arrived at the condition when any number of Bills can be brought up and passed through all their stages straight away.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE
In reply to my noble friend opposite I may say that we have, as a matter of fact, come to the condition which he mentions, of course on the understanding that only Bills would be put through which were of an urgent or what is called an emergency character. The two Standing Orders which apply have been in fact suspended for the remainder of the session.

§ LORD WIMBORNE
I hope the noble Earl will be satisfied with that explanation.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
I am not at all satisfied.

§ LORD WIMBORNE
We are living in exceptional times, and it is necessary that Bills of an emergency character should be passed through all their stages without delay. If the noble Earl will look at this Bill—

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
How can I look at it? We have no copies of the Bill. It was only a minute or two ago that the House ordered the Bill to be printed.

§ LORD WIMBORNE
I am sorry that noble Lords have not been able to see the Bill, and I will therefore explain it at length. Clause 1, subsection (1), gives the Board of Trade power to require returns for the purpose of obtaining information as to the quantity in the United Kingdom, or in transit to the United Kingdom, of any articles of commerce, and the Board are given power to serve a notice on any person supposed to be in possession of any article of commerce requiring him to state within a specified period what quantity of such article is in his possession. Subsection (2) gives the Board power, for the purpose of testing the accuracy of any return which may be made to them on this subject, to require a duly authorised officer of the Board to enter the premises of any person suspected of withholding information on the subject and verify for their own satisfaction the statements submitted as to the quantities of articles of commerce so 533 held. That is rather on the analogy of the powers which factory inspectors possess. Subsection (3) deals with penalties. They are the more or less ordinary sort of penalties which would apply to cases of this kind. Any person wilfully refusing or neglecting to give information, or making a false return, or obstructing or impeding any officer of the Board is liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £100, or, if the Court is of opinion that the offence was committed wilfully, to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a period not exceeding three months.
Clause 2 deals with quite another matter—the power of the Board to take possession of any such articles of commerce which they think are being unreasonably withheld, and to do so at such a figure as may be agreed upon between the Board and the person concerned, or as the result of the arbitration of a Judge of the High Court selected by the Lord Chief Justice of England in England and by the corresponding legal authorities in Scotland alai Ireland. Clause 3 is merely to enable the Board of Trade to make arrangements with other Departments to act for them; and Clause 4 defines what an "owner" is, and so forth. The scope of the Bill is quite clear. The discussion which we have recently had with regard to the possibility of a rise in price and its effect upon the cattle supply of this country will suggest at once to your Lordships the sort of objects for which this Bill might be used. This is an emergency measure designed to extend only to the period of the war, and it is on all fours with other emergency and preventive measures which have received the sanction of both Houses of Parliament. In these circumstances I hope that your Lordships will see your way to pass the Bill through all its stages to-day. It is, of course, important that these powers should be obtained at once, and I think the House may rest assured that they will not be harshly or unjustifiably applied, and that nothing will be done to restrict legitimate commerce. It is merely with a view to taking such precautionary measures as may be rendered necessary by the exceptional and urgent state of affairs in which we find ourselves to-day that we ask for these powers.

§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE
My Lords, we are invited to discuss this Bill and other Bills under conditions which render it absolutely impossible for us to satisfy ourselves as to their contents and as to the manner in which they will operate. I am afraid we have to accept that as a necessity arising out of the urgency of the moment; and I hope that His Majesty's Government will take note of the fact that, in our desire not to impede them in carrying legislation which they deem essential to meet the difficulties of the moment, we are not in any way standing upon our rights or insisting upon the amount of scrutiny and investigation to which we are certainly entitled. With regard to this Bill, I note one point which seems to me to require a word of explanation. Under Clause I. subsection (2), any officer of the Government Department "authorised in that behalf by the Board" may enter premises and satisfy himself with regard to the articles of commerce contained on those premises. Will the noble Lord in charge of the Bill tell us what is meant by an authorised officer? Does it mean an officer holding a formal authority from the Government Department to do these things, or may any gentleman suddenly descend upon the business premises of an unfortunate tradesman and say that he is an authorised agent and thereupon conduct an inquisitorial examination into the affairs of that trader?

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE
My Lords, with regard to what has fallen from the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition, may say that we quite appreciate the attitude which he and his friends have taken, and we are grateful to them for raising no objection to the prompt and somewhat hurried passing of these Bills. At the same time it is only right to point out that if we chose to carry on prolonged sittings for their consideration there is nothing to prevent our doing so. It would be, I think, rather a waste of your Lordships' time, but there is nothing to prevent our carrying on, perhaps at somewhat inconvenient hours, a considerable examination of these measures.
So far as this particular measure is concerned, it is, in fact, an extension of the action with regard to food stuffs which was taken, as the House will remember, quite early in the day when the crisis 535 began. There was a tendency at that time to lock up, sometimes from motives of foolish panic and sometimes, perhaps, from still more unworthy motives, supplies of food stuffs to the public disadvantage. It has been found necessary to extend that power of prohibition to a number of other articles which will be scheduled under powers given by this Bill. With regard to the particular question which the noble Marquess asked, of course it is clear that incursions on to private property for the purpose of ascertaining whether there is an undue collection of any of the articles in question could only be made by a person acting under Departmental authority, and I think the noble Marquess can be quite easy in his mind that no abuse will be allowed of the powers which are given by this, I admit, somewhat drastic provision. As I have stated, and as my noble friend made clear from his original statement, this is simply an extension of a principle which was adopted by common agreement quite early in the day. We have seen in the public Press complaints of the over solicitude of individuals, sometimes from quite honourable motives, in collecting articles of commerce which ought to be at the public disposal. We have heard the singular complaint that, owing to the operations in that direction of a number of benevolently inclined people, hospital stores of all kinds have become almost unpurchasable with the result that hospitals are unable to know where to look for such articles as, for instance, carbolic acid. Therefore a measure of this kind is absolutely necessary.

§ LORD PARMOOR
My Lords, it is impossible, of course, to discuss in detail an autocratic and drastic measure of this kind, which I understand is introduced for emergency purposes only. But the noble Lord in charge of the Bill said that the same machinery was being adopted as regards the officer of the Board authorised to enter premises as had already been adopted under the Factory Acts.

§ LORD WIMBORNE
It is on the analogy of the Factory Acts.

§ LORD PARMOOR
I would point out that there is no analogy between what is proposed in this Bill and what is carried out under the Factory Acts. The provision in the Factory Acts is that every 536 officer authorised to enter premises shall be furnished by the Board with a certificate of his authority, and in applying for entry into any premises he must, if so required, produce the said certificate to the occupier. The object of that is that no unauthorised person should enter premises alleging that he had the authority of the Board of Trade. Surely if there are to be drastic proposals of this kind some protection should be given in this Bill, as in the Factory Acts, to secure that no person should enter premises unless he has the certificate of the Board of Trade and produces it before he exercises his right of entry. I hope that on that point some satisfactory answer may be given, because it is a very drastic proposal to allow any one to enter upon premises the owner of which has no guarantee as to whether or not he is an authorised officer.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD
My Lords, thanks to the courtesy of Lord Lucas I have had a copy of this Bill, as printed for the House of Commons, put into my hands. I notice that it gives power to the Government to obtain complete trading information. That is something which traders do not like to reveal without some assurance. I would therefore ask the noble Lord in charge of the Bill for an assurance that in normal cases, where no offence is shown, the information will be treated as wholly confidential.

§ LORD WIMBORNE
That is provided for in Clause 1, subsection (4).

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD
That subsection enacts that no individual return or part of a return made under this Bill, and no information obtained under the Bill, shall be published or disclosed except for the purposes of a prosecution under the Bill. That does not meet my point. What I mean is that the information shall be kept within the Department which will have to administer this Bill. The Board of Trade are given power in the Bill to obtain information which traders will not wish to be given to other Government Departments. Therefore I ask for an assurance that the information obtained will only be used within the Government Department concerned with the administration of this Bill. I understand that the noble Lord is prepared to give that assurance.

§ LORD WIMBORNE
Yes.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD
I notice, from a hasty perusal of the Bill, that the Government may take possession of articles, but no power is conferred to sell or distribute those articles. What is it proposed to do with them? What is the agency of distribution? That is a point which will have to be put right. I suppose it will be met by an Order in Council, but no doubt the noble Lord in charge of the Bill will consider that point. The policy of fixing maximum prices has its disadvantages. The maximum price ipso facto becomes the minimum sale price, and if you make a habit of fixing maximum prices, as has practically been done to-day, you cut from beneath our feet the very pillar and foundation on which we hope to rest during this period—namely, the inducement to foreign traders to rush their exports to this country. I therefore strongly urge that that form of competition should not be discouraged.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE)
I would call your Lordships' attention to Clause 4, subsection (4), which provides that this Bill shall have effect only while a state of war exists between His Majesty and any foreign Power, and for a period of six months thereafter.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD
Under that subsection this Bill could have been in operation, with just a few years' interval, practically since the Crimean War. "A state of war between His Majesty and any foreign Power and six months thereafter," would almost cover the history of the Afghan frontier. We must be given some assurance that the Bill is to have effect only during the present war, and is not to become a permanent Act.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
It is not intended that this Bill should be operative except for the purposes of the present emergency—that is to say, during the present war. The desire of the Government is to reduce interference with the ordinary course of business as much as possible. The emergency makes it necessary that we should possess these powers. By Clause 3 the Board of Trade is empowered to make arrangements with any other Government Department for the exercise by that Department on behalf of the Board of Trade of the powers of the Board under this Bill with respect to any particular article of commerce. Lord Parmoor desires that the officer who enters upon premises should give 538 evidence of the authority which be possesses. Of course, no officer could enter premises unless he was duly authorised. That is quite clear from Clause 1, subsection (2). He must be an "officer of the Board authorised in that behalf by the Board"; otherwise he would be a trespasser and could be resisted. I quite agree that the officer should have some certificate, and my noble friend in charge of tae Bill will communicate with the Board of Trade on that point and arrange that then shall be a certificate. If Lord Parmoor will be content with that undertaking, he will have secured the object he has in view without the necessity of delaying the Bill.

§ LORD PARMOOR
I think that the noble and learned Viscount's suggestion would meet the difficulty, and that an Amendment in the circumstances would be unnecessary. But there is this further point. It is not only that a certificate should be given to the officer of the Board of Trade, but that the owner should have the right to ask that that certificate should be shown to him before a particular individual enters upon his premise. That would not preclude an authorised officer from entering, but it would prevent from doing so an unauthorised person who might take advantage of the Act and seek to enter premises.

§ LORD WIMBORNE
My Lords, I will undertake to represent to the Board of Trade the points which have been raised by the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Parmoor). I have no doubt whatever that the Board will be able to take such steps as will meet the difficulty which he contemplates, and in that way protect traders from unauthorised trespass on the part of persons who have nothing whatever to do with the Board of Trade or the carrying out of this Bill. As to the point raised by Lord Crawford, who inquired what the Board of Trade would do with the articles which they had acquired, I may say that their object, of course, would be to distribute them, to pat them on the market. They would not take action at all if they were not certain that articles were being held up, that there was a demand for them, and that they ought to be circulated in the market in the ordinary way. In my opinion the fact that the Board would possess the powers conferred in this Bill would be sufficient to stop very largely, if not wholly, the action of holding up. I think it is very unlikely that it will often come to a forced sale, for which Clause 2 provides.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD
Does the noble Lord say that Clause 2 gives the Board of Trade power to sell?

§ LORD WIMBORNE
Under Clause 2 the Board of Trade have power to purchase, either by agreement or as the result of arbitration. Their object in purchasing would be, no doubt, to sell.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD
How and to whom?

§ LORD WIMBORNE
If it is true, for instance, that, owing to mistaken zeal on the part of some voluntary hospital association, a sort of run has been made upon a commodity needed for hospitals and that in consequence there is a shortage of that article, this Bill would enable the Board of Trade to acquire, either voluntarily or by arbitration, from that mistaken voluntary association such article, and, if necessary, supply it at the same price at which they had acquired it to the hospitals which needed it. As I have said, I think that the mere fact that the Board would possess such powers would go a long way to preventing articles being unreasonably withheld.