CRIMINAL JUSTICE ADMINISTRATION BILL.

HL Deb 04 August 1914 vol 17 cc327-68

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause 3:

Reduction of imprisonment on payment of installments of fine.

3.—(1) Where an offender is liable to be imprisoned in respect of the non-payment of any sum of money adjudged to be paid by a conviction or order of a court of summary jurisdiction, and the offender before the issue of a warrant of commitment pays, to any person authorised to receive the same, any sum in part payment of the suns adjudged to be paid, the period for which he is liable to be imprisoned shall thereupon be reduced by a number of days bearing, as nearly as possible, the same proportion tothe total number of days for which the offender is sentenced to be imprisoned as the sum paid bears to the sum adjudged to be paid.

(2) Where a person is sentenced to imprisonment or committed to prison in respect of the non-payment of any suns of money adjudged to be paid by a conviction or order of a court of summary jurisdiction, there shall be stated in the conviction order or warrant of commitment the amount, omitting fractions of a penny, the payment of which represents an abatement of one day's imprisonment, and no part payment shall be accepted under this section, or under section nine of the Prison Act, 1898, unless the amount of the part payment is the amount so stated in the conviction or order, or, as the case may be, in the warrant of commitment, or some multiple thereof.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I move to leave out Clause 3 and to insert the new clause standing in my name on the Paper. The new clause corrects in various drafting particulars the clause as it stands in the Bill. The points in which the new clause differs from the existing clause are minor points, and they are all in the direction of improving the working of the clause; and the improvements, I may add, are in favour of the subject.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 3 and insert the following new clause:

Reduction of imprisonment on part payment of sums adjudged to be paid.

.—(1) Where a term of imprisonment is imposed by a court of summary jurisdiction in respect of the non-payment of any sum of money adjudged to be paid by a conviction or order of that or any other court of summary jurisdiction, that term shall, on payment of a part of such sum to any person authorised to receive it, be reduced by a number of days bearing as nearly as possible the same proportion to the total number of days in the term as the sum paid bears to the sum adjudged to be paid: Provided, that in reckoning the number of days by which any terns of imprisonment would be reduced under this section, the first day of imprisonment shall not be taken into account, and that, in reckoning the suns which will secure the reduction of a term of imprisonment, fractions of a penny shall be omitted.

(2) Whenever a court of summary jurisdiction imposes a term of imprisonment in respect of such non-payment as aforesaid and allows time for payment, the court shall state the sum the payment of which will secure an abatement of one day of the imprisonment, and no part payment shall be accepted under this section unless the sum tendered is the amount so stated or some multiple thereof, and after the person has been committed to prison no part payment shall be accepted under this section until payment has been made in full of the court fee payable in respect of the warrant of commitment.

(3) Provision may be made by rules under section twenty-nine of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, as to the application of sums paid under this section and for determining the persons authorised to receive such payments and the conditions under which such payments may be made.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

LORD PARMOOR

There is one point in the alternative clause moved by the noble and learned Viscount to which I should like to call attention. The words to which I allude are at the end of subsection (2), "and after the person has been committed to prison no part payment shall be accepted under this section until payment has been made in full of the Court fee payable in respect of the warrant of commitment." There was no proposal of that kind in the original Clause 3, and my objection to it is this. I look upon this Bill as most important in drawing a proper differentiation between fines and fees, and the great value of the Bill is that, although certain punishments should be inflicted as regards fines, they should not be inflicted merely as regards the payment of fees. The wrong principle in the matter of fees has been got rid of by the front door, but it is re-introduced again in this subsection in a form which was not in the Bill as presented to the House. To my mind the provision is wrong in principle. There is no reason whatever why a person should not be allowed by proportionate payments to get a reduction in imprisonment apart from the full Court fee payable in respect of the warrant of commitment. I would ask the noble and learned Viscount whether he would not take into consideration the desirability of deleting the words that I have read, because they really re-introduce the very principle which, at any rate in my view, this Bill has been brought in to put an end to as far as possible. The reintroduction of this principle is, in my opinion, out of accord with the principle of the Bill and might work great hardship. Personally I think prisoners should not have to pay any Court fees. Supposing there was a difficulty in the case of a work- ing man paying the full Court fees he would, under subsection (2) of the Lord Chancellor's proposed new clause, be kept in prison for a longer period than he ought to be kept there. I therefore hope that the noble and learned Viscount will see that this provision is really inconsistent with the general principle of the Bill.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I am anxious to meet my noble and learned friend, and I think the most convenient way in which to do so would be to drop subsection (2) of my Amendment. The subsection would be useful in some respects but it is not vital, and the dropping of it will get rid of my noble and learned friend's objection. I quite recognise the point which he makes, and as I am anxious to get your Lordships' assent to this Bill I will meet my noble and learned friend by dropping subsection (2).

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

I understand that the Lord Chancellor moves his new clause as printed, but omitting subsection (2).

THE LORD CHANCELLOR nodded assent.

On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4:

Provisions for enforcement of payment of fines, &c.

4.—(1) Where a person has been summarily convicted of any offence and sentenced or ordered by a court of summary jurisdiction on a summons for arrears of a bastardy or maintenance order to pay a sum of money the court by which he is convicted may order him to be searched and any money found on him on apprehension or when so searched or which may be found on him when taken to prison in default of payment of the sum so adjudged to be paid shall, subject to any directions given by t he court, be applied towards the payment of the sum so adjudged to be paid, and the surplus, if any, shall be returned to him.

(2) Where a warrant of distress is issued by a court of summary jurisdiction it shall authorise the persons charged with the execution thereof to take any money as well as any goods of the person against whom the distress is levied, and any money so taken shall be treated as if it were the proceeds of sale of goods taken under the warrant, and the provisions of the Summary Jurisdiction Acts shall apply accordingly.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My first Amendment—to leave out from subsection (1) all words after "Where a person has been" down to tie word "convicted," and to insert other words—is purely drafting. Amendments were inserted in the other House which make the sentence run rather awkwardly, and I move to amend it.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 9, leave out from ("been") to the end of line 12 and insert ("adjudged to pay a sum by a conviction of a court of summary jurisdiction, or in proceedings in any such court for enforcing an order in any matter of bastardy, or an order under which weekly sums are made payable towards the maintenance of a wife, the court").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I move to leave out from the same subsection the words "shall, subject to any directions given by the Court," and to insert "may, unless the Court otherwise directs." And I further move to insert, at the end of the clause, the proviso standing in my name. This is to give more direction and more latitude, and I think it is an improvement.

Amendments moved—

Page 3, lines 16 and 17, leave out ("shall, subject to any directions given by the court") and inesrt ("may, unless the court otherwise directs")

Page 3, line 18, after ("him") insert ("Pro vided that the money shall not be so applied if the court is satisfied that the money does not belong to the person on whom it was found, or that the loss of the money will be more injurious to his family than his imprisonment").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5:

Payment and allocation of fines and tees.

5.—(1) A court of summary jurisdiction in fixing the amount of any fine to be imposed on an offender shall take into consideration, amongst other things, the means of the offender so far as they appear or are known to the court; and where a fine is imposed the payment of the court fees and police fees payable in the case up to and including conviction shall not be imposed in addition to the line, but the amount of the fine, or of such part thereof as may be paid or recovered, shall be applied as follows:—

1. (a) in the first place in the repayment to the informant or complainant of any court or police fees paid by him;
2. (b) in the second place in the payment of any court fees not already paid by the informant or complainant, which may be payable under the table of fees set out in the First Schedule to this Act;
3. (c) in the third place in the payment of any police fees not already paid by the informant or complainant; and
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4. (d) the balance (if any) remaining after the aforesaid payments have been made shall be paid to the fund or person to which the fine is directed to he paid by the enactments relating to the offence in respect of which the fine was imposed, or if there is no such fund or person, then to the fund into which the court fees are paid.

(2) Nothing in this section shall prevent the court from adjudging the offender to pay in addition to any fine imposed by the court any sum in respect of costs or expenses, other than such fees aforesaid, properly incurred by the informant or complainant or other person in respect of the proceedings.

LORD PARMOOR

I think it is extremely hard, particularly in education cases, that any sum should be paid by the parent who is summoned except the actual fine, and I want to make it quite clear that the expenses of the attendance officer, who is the officer of the local authority, shall not be charged against the parent if he is at fault in reference to sending his child to school.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 31, subsection (1), after ("conviction") insert ("or of any expenses incurred by an officer or representative of a local authority").—(Lord Parmoor.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I hope that my noble and learned friend will not press this Amendment to-day. If he thinks he must press it, I would ask him to bring it up again on Report. There is a considerable difference between the expenses of an officer of the local authority and the fees; the expenses are not a fixed amount, and it would add considerable complication to the clause if this change were made. I therefore ask my noble and learned friend not to press the Amendment unless he feels that he has strong reason for doing so, in which case I would ask him to bring it up on Report.

LORD PARMOOR

If the noble and learned Viscount wishes me to withdraw the Amendment at the present time I will do so. But I would point out that it is just these expenses which, if they are charged in addition to the fine, often bring about a hardship and result in sending a person to prison whom no one desires should go to prison.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD PARMOOR

I desire to move, in subsection (1), after the words "shall not" ["shall not be imposed in addition to the fine"], to insert "be taken into consideration in fixing the amount of fine or." I think it is important that a positive direction should be given that in fixing the amount of the fine the justices should not have regard to the Court fees at all. Although they have discretion to omit these fees, the justices very often do not do so. They invariably say that they do not desire to put the expense on the county. In my view that is a very poor answer to the real point—namely, that the fine should be the matter of punishment, and that the other expenses should be eliminated in every possible way.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 32, after ("not") insert ("be taken into consideration in fixing the amount of fine or").—(Lord Parmoor.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I think the noble and learned Lord has made a good point here, and I am glad to accept his Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD PARMOOR

I want to put myself in order by formally moving to omit subsection (2) of Clause 5. The result of this subsection is this, that you might have a fine of a shilling and yet you might have costs imposed—

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

I would point out to Lord Parmoor that there is an Amendment on the Paper in the name of the Lord Chancellor to amend subsection (2), and that Amendment, of course, ought to come first.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Amendment is to add, at the end of subsection (2), the words "or in respect of any compensation which the Court may have power to award." A doubt has been entertained as to whether the words as they stand might not take away the existing power of the Court in statutory cases to award compensation in addition to a fine, and it is desirable to make that quite clear. That is the object of this Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 12, after ("proceedings") insert ("or in respect of any compensation which the court may have power to award").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

LORD PARMOOR

What I wanted to say upon this subsection is this. You might have costs charged against a poor man which might come to as much as £2 2s. or £2 10s. That would depend on the number of witnesses who happened to be called. The present practice is to impose a fine of the whole amount. In a case where the costs came to £2 10s. that would bring the fine to £2 11s., whereas the fine as a matter of punishment would be only one shilling. I am anxious that an anomaly of that kind should not be preserved, and that there should not be the power of adding costs which might amount to £2 10s. to a fine of only one shilling. I will not ask the noble and learned Viscount for any undertaking on the matter at the moment, but I would ask him to give the point his careful consideration before the Report stage.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I will have the question of principle considered before the Report stage. Meanwhile I hope the House will add the words which I have moved.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I move to add to Clause 5 a new subsection, the object of which is simply to define what is meant by "police fees."

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 12, after subsection (2) insert as a new subsection: (3) In this section the expression "police fees" means all duly authorised fees payable to any constable in the execution of his duty.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6:

Uniform scale of court fees as respects all courts of summary jurisdiction.

6.—(1) The table of court fees set out in Part I of the First Schedule to this Act shall have effect in all courts of summary jurisdiction, and shall be substituted for any table of fees in force at the commencement of this Act in any court of summary jurisdiction, and references in any enactment to any table of fees for which the said table is so substituted shall be construed as references to the said table.

(2) Notwithstanding any provisions in ally other general or local Act enabling fees to be charged by clerks to justices the fees set out in Part I of that schedule, and no other fees, may be charged by clerks to justices: Provided that nothing in this section shall affect the fees chargeable in metropolitan police courts or the police courts of the City of London, or in respect of the matters specified in Part II of that schedule.

(3) The Secretary of State may, in the event of new or additional duties being imposed on courts of summary jurisdiction or clerks to justices, by order make such variations in the said table of fees as may seem to him to be proper, and upon such order coming into operation the table shall have effect subject to the variations made by the order: Provided that before any such order is made a draft of the proposed order shall be laid before each House of Parliament for a period of not less than thirty days during which the House is sitting, and if either of those Houses before the expiration of those thirty clays presents an address to His Majesty against the draft order or any part thereof no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, without prejudice to the making of a new draft order.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I move the drafting Amendments standing in my name.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 17, leave out ("table of")

Page 4, line 18, after ("which") insert ("fees in") and leave out ("is") and insert ("are")

Page 4, line 19, leave out ("said table") and insert ("fees so substituted")

Page 4, line 21, after ("Act") insert ("or in any rules made under any such Act")

Page 4, line 30, after ("justices") insert ("or for other sufficient reason").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.

Clause 9:

Variation of terms and conditions of probation. 7 Edw. 7, c. 17.

9. The following section shall be substituted for section five of the Probation of Offenders Act, 1907, which relates to the power of varying the conditions of recognisances:— 'The court before which any person is bound by a recognisance under this Act to appear for conviction and sentence—

1. (a) may at any time if it appears to it, upon the application of the probation officer, that it is expedient that the terms and conditions of the recognisance should he varied, summon the person bound by the recognisance to appear before it, and, if he fails to show cause why such variation should not be made, vary the terms of the recognisance by extending or diminishing the duration thereof, so, however, that it shall not exceed three years from the date of the original order, or by altering the conditions thereof, or by inserting additional conditions; or
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2. (b) may on application being made by the probation officer, and on being satisfied that the conduct of the person bound by the recognisance has been such as to make it unnecessary that he any longer be under supervision, discharge the recognisance."

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The Amendment standing in my name to Clause 9 is purely drafting. It is to provide that where a probation order is made by a Court of Summary jurisdiction the person on probation is bound on recognisance to come up for conviction or for sentence.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 5, after ("sentence") insert ("or for sentence").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10:

Committals to Borstal Institutions.

10.—(1) Where a person is summarily convicted of any offence for which the court has power to impose a sentence of imprisonment for one month or upwards without the option of a fine, and—

1. (a) it appears to the court that the offender is not less than sixteen nor more than twenty-one years of age; and
2. (b) it is proved that the offender has previously been convicted of any offence or, that having been previously discharged on probation, he failed to observe a condition of his recognisance; and
3. (c) it appears to the court that by reason of the offender's criminal habits or tendencies, or association with persons of bad character, it is expedient that he should be subject to detention for such term and under such instruction and discipline as appears most conducive to his reformation and the repression of crime,

it shall be lawful for the court, in lieu of passing sentence, to commit the offender to prison until the next quarter sessions, and the court of quarter sessions shall inquire into the circumstances of the case, and if it appears to the court that the offender is of such age as aforesaid and that for any such reason as aforesaid it is expedient that the offender should be subject to such detention as aforesaid, shall pass such sentence of detention in a Borstal institution as is authorised by Part I of the Prevention of Crime Act, 1908, as amended by this Act; otherwise the court shall deal with the case in any way in which the court of summary jurisdiction might have dealt with it.

(2) A court of summary jurisdiction or court of quarter sessions, before dealing with any case under this section, shall consider any report or representations which may be made to it by or on behalf of the Prison Commissioners as to the suitability of the offender for such detention as aforesaid, and a court of summary jurisdiction shall, where necessary, adjourn the case for the purpose of giving an opportunity for such a report or representation being made.

(3) Where a person is committed to prison under this section his treatment in prison shall, so far as practicable, be similar to that in Borstal institutions, or he may, if the Secretary of State so directs, be transferred to a Borstal institution.

(4) The Costs in Criminal Cases Act, 1908, shall apply in the case of a person committed to prison by a court of summary jurisdiction under this section as A that person were committed for trial for an indictable offence.

(5) A person sentenced by a court of quarter sessions under this section to detention in a Borstal institution may appeal against the sentence to the Court of Criminal Appeal as if he had been convicted on indictment, and the provisions of the Criminal Appeal Act, 1907, shall apply accordingly.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The new subsection which I move to add to this clause postpones for a little time the coming into operation of the clause with regard to Borstal institutions. The reason is that we have not got sufficient Borsta institutions and cannot provide them quick enough to make the machinery of the clause work unless we take a little time.

Amendment moved— Page 7, line 32, after subsection (5) insert as a new subsection: (6) This section shall come into operation on the first day of September nineteen hundred and fifteen.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I mentioned when I had the honour of addressing your Lordships on the Second Reading the point of the new clause which I propose to insert here. The drafting of the first subsection of Clause 10 is such that any offence for which less than a month's imprisonment can be awarded will not come under it. As a general rule, that appears to be a reasonable provision, because in most cases minor offences to which so small a term of imprisonment would be appropriate would not be the kind of offences for which Borstal treatment would be considered right, But there is a class of offence for which a very small term of imprisonment is awardable, and yet which would be very suitable for Borstal treatment. I refer to offences connected with prostitution and soliciting, which are mentioned in the schedule of which I have given notice. This is a matter on which there has been a considerable body of opinion in favour of a change in the law. These unfortunate children are, one would think, very suitable for Borstal treatment. They are guilty of an offence of a kind which renders it very necessary that they should be taken away from the surroundings connected with it. It follows, as a matter of course, that if they are convicted of such offences they are living amongst people and under conditions which must end in their ruin absolutely, and therefore it seems proper and reasonable, when they are convicted, that instead of being imprisoned and punished they should be sent to one of these Borstal institutions, where they not only might be restrained from further committing offences but might be cured of all propensity for doing so. The whole object and purpose of my Amendment is to make an exception in respect of this class of offence. Although the maximum punishment is very low, yet I think we should permit of Borstal treatment being awarded. I have carefully preserved the safeguard of decision by Quarter Sessions and not by a Court of Summary Jurisdiction. That, of course, is a necessary protection, because detention for so long a time as a Borstal institution implies ought not to be in the power of a Court of Summary jurisdiction alone.

Amendment moved— After Clause 10, insert the following new clause:

Power to send female offenders to Borstal institutions in certain circumstances.

.—(1) Where a female who appears to the court to be not Ices than sixteen nor more than twenty-one years of age is charged before a court of summary jurisdiction with any offence mentioned in the Fifth Schedule to this Act, and the court, being of opinion that the charge is proved, discharges the female under the powers conferred by the Probation of Offenders Act, 1907, on her entering into a recognizance to be of good behaviour and to appear for conviction and sentence when called on during the period specified in the order, that period may extend to the time when she attains the age of twenty-one, notwithstanding t hat it exceeds three years.

(2) Where any such female commits a breach of any condition of her recognizance; and

1. (a) in respect of such breach is brought or appears before the court before which she is bound by her recognisance to appear for conviction and sentence; and
2. (b) is by that court convicted for the original offence; and
3. (c) it appears to the court that she is still under the age of twenty-one;

the court, if satisfied that by reason of her criminal habits or propensities, or association with persons of bad character, it is expedient that she should be subject to detention for such term and under such instruction and discipline as appears most conducive to her reformation and the repression of crime, may, in lieu of passing such sentence as it might have passed for the original offence, commit the offender to prison till the next quarter sessions, and the court of quarter sessions after considering the circumstances of the case shall have power to pass such sentence of detention in a Borstal institution as is authorised by Part I of the Prevention of Crime Act, 1908, as amended by this Act.

(3) Before passing such sentence of detention the court shall consider any report or representations which may be made to it by, or on behalf of, the Prison Commissioners as to the suitability of the female for such detention as aforesaid, and shall when necessary adjourn the case for the purpose of giving an opportunity of such a report or recommendation being made.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I have very great sympathy with the clause which the noble Marquess has moved. My difficulty about it is not a very satisfactory difficulty. I agree with the noble Marquess's object, and the Government took that view elsewhere; but there arose such a controversy about the whole question of the treatment suitable for the reformation of young prostitutes that it was found that if the clause was pressed the Bill would he in peril. If we put it in now, we revive that controversy; and I am doubtful as to how it may affect the Bill elsewhere. But I am entirely in sympathy with the noble Marquess, and I can say to him that we shall not leave this question out of account. We have done something in Clause 8, where he will see that in probation cases we put in power to prescribe conditions and terms which will cover residence. Therefore, something is done in this Bill to meet the point of view of the noble Marquess. I entirely agree that this is a reform which I hope Parliament will see its way to agree to very soon.

LORD PARMOOR

I was going to ask the noble Marquess not to press this Amendment. This is a matter which has been fully considered by those interested in criminal procedure, and the majority of opinion is not in favour at the present time of mixing up questions of immorality with criminal questions to be dealt with under the Borstal system. There may be need of very special treatment in these cases. I should agree entirely with the noble Marquess on that. But I do not think that this is the proper way of dealing with it, and I am sure that the form in which, his clause is drafted would create difficulties.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

After what has been said by the noble and learned Viscount and by the noble and learned Lord who has just sat down, it is clear that there is an important body of opinion which is not satisfied that this clause is wise. In these circumstances I feel the full force of what the Lord Chancellor said, that the insertion of such a clause might imperil the passage of the Bill. Therefore I ask your Lordships' leave to withdraw the Amendment.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I am very thankful to the noble Marquess for taking that course.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clauses 11 and 12 agreed to.

Clause 13:

Substitution of police custody for imprisonment in case of short sentences.

13.—(1) No person shall be sentenced to imprisonment by a court of summary jurisdiction for a period of less than five days.

(2) Where a person is liable to be sentenced to imprisonment by a court of summary jurisdiction, the court may, if any suitable places provided and certified in manner hereinafter appearing are available for the purpose, order the person to be detained therein for such period not exceeding four days as the court thinks fit, and the order shall be delivered with the offender to the person in charge of the place where the offender is to be detained, and shall be a sufficient authority for his detention in that place in accordance with the tenour thereof.

(3) The expenses of the maintenance of persons detained under this section shall be defrayed in like manner as the expenses of the maintenance of prisoners in prisons to which the Prisons Act, 1877, applies.

(4) The Secretary of State may, on the application of any police authority, certify any police cells, bridewells, or other similar places provided by the authority to be suitable places for the detention of persons sentenced to detention under this section, and may make regulations for the inspection of places so provided, the treatment of persons detained therein, and generally for carrying this section into effect: Provided that no place shall be certified unless provision is made for the supervision of female prisoners by female officers.

(5) For the purposes of this section the expression "police authority," with respect to the City of London, means the Commissioner of City Police, and with respect to other places has the same meaning as in the Police Act, 1890.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

Moved to amend the proviso to subsection (4) so that it should read, "Provided that no place so certified shall be used for the detention of females unless provision is made for their supervision by female officers." The noble and learned Viscount said: My Amendments to this clause are purely formal. It was intended to put a restriction on the use of police cells where there were no female officers appointed for female prisoners. That is quite right, and we adhere to that. But there may be cases in which cells have been arranged so as to be quite suitable for that purpose but where there are no female officers. I propose to put in words the effect of which is that police cells should not be certified so long as their use for the detention of female prisoners is prohibited.

Amendments moved—

Page 9, line 10, leave out ("shall be certified") and insert ("so certified shall be used for the detention of females")

Page 9, line 11, leave out ("the supervision of female prisoners") and insert ("their supervision").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 14:

Provisions as to malicious damage to property.

14—(1) If any person wilfully or maliciously commits any damage to any real or personal property whatsoever either of a public or private nature, and the amount of the damage does not exceed twenty pounds, he shall be liable on summary conviction—

1. (a) if the amount of the damage exceeds five pounds, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or to a fine not exceeding twenty pounds; and
2. (b) if the amount of the damage is five pounds or less, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two months or to a fine not exceeding five pounds;

and in either case to the payment of such further amount as appears to the court reasonable compensation for the damage so committed which last-mentioned amount shall, if the property damaged was private property, be paid to the party aggrieved: Provided that this provision shall not apply where the alleged offender acted under a fair and reasonable supposition that he had a right to do the act complained of.

(2) So much of section fifty-one of the Malicious Damage Act, 1861, as limits the cases which may be dealt with under that section to cases where the damage injury or spoil exceeds five pounds shall be repealed but a court of summary jurisdiction shall not commit any person for trial for an offence under that section unless it is of opinion that the damage injury or spoil exceeds five pounds.

(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed as preventing a court of summary jurisdiction from committing a person for trial for an offence notwithstanding that the offence is an offence which the court has power to deal with summarily under this section.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The object of my first three Amendments is to prevent a technical point being taken which might be an awkward one. There is a danger that where a person is summarily convicted of committing wilful and malicious damage to property which appears on the face of it not to exceed £20 in value, he may appeal on the question of the value of the property. The object of these Amendments is to make that conclusive as far as appeal goes.

Amendments moved—

Page 9, line 19, after ("not") insert ("in the opinion of the court")

Page 9, line 21, after ("damage") insert ("in the opinion of the court")

Page 9, line 24, after ("is") insert ("in the opinion of the court").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My next Amendment to leave out, at the end of subsection (1), the words "if the property damaged was private property" deals with a small point. The words "private property" would exclude the case in which the property so damaged belonged to the public—for in stance, telegraph wires belonging to the Postmaster-General. There is no reason why in such cases compensation should not be paid to the Exchequer, following the precedent in other cases.

Amendment moved— Page 9, lines 29 and 30, leave out ("if the property damaged was private property").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved, Page 9, line 41, at the beginning of the line insert ("Except so far as otherwise provided in the last foregoing subsection").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15 agreed to.

Clause 16:

Hard labour and classification of prisoners.

16.—(1) Where imprisonment is imposed by any court in respect of the non-payment of any sum adjudged by that or any other court to be paid the imprisonment shall be without hard labour. Where a person convicted by or before any court of an offence is sentenced to imprisonment without the option of a line the imprisonment may, in the discretion of the court, be either with or without hard labour, notwithstanding that the offence is an offence at common law or that the statute under which the sentence is passed does not authorise the imposition of hard labour or requires the imposition of hard labour.

(2) If no direction is given by a court in pursuance of the powers conferred by section six of the Prison Act, 1898, as to the division in which an offender is to be placed, the offender shall, subject to the provisions of that section, be treated as an offender of the third division unless the visiting committee on the application of the governor of the prison consider the ease suitable for treatment in the second division, and direct that the offender be so treated. Subsection (2) of that section shall be amended by the insertion after the words "without hard labour" of the words "or committed to prison for nonpayment of a fine."

(3) A court or visiting committee shall not direct an offender to be treated as an offender of the second division if his character and antecedents are such that he is likely to exercise a bad influence on first offenders.

(4) The provisions of subsections (1) and (2) of section six of the Prison Act, 1898, as amended by this section, which relate to the classification of offenders sentenced to imprisonment for offences shall apply to cases where the person is sentenced to imprisonment for failing to do or to abstain from doing any act or thing required to be done or left undone.

(5) Subsection (3) of the same section (which requires that certain prisoners shall be placed in a separate division and treated under special rules and shall not be placed in association with criminal prisoners nor be compelled to wear prison dress unless their own clothing is unfit for use), shall extend to persons committed to prison for contempt of court, and accordingly the words "or for contempt of court" shall be inserted in that subsection after the words "hard labour."

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I move to omit from subsection (2) the words "on the application of the governor of the prison." This clause introduces a new principle in our prison system—namely, that after a Court has awarded a particular sentence some person other than the Home Secretary should have a right to modify it. Up to now the sentence of the Court has been final and conclusive, except through His Majesty's intervention by the hand of his Home Secretary. But here it is provided that if no direction is given by the Court as to the division in which an offender is to be placed, the visiting justices shall have power to modify the decision. As your Lordships are aware, if no division is mentioned the imprisonment is in the third division; but in this subsection it is proposed that the visiting justices shall be able to say that it shall be, not in the third division, but in the second division. That is an application—a small application, no doubt—of a new principle. The visiting justices have no jurisdiction whatever in respect of the sentences of prisoners. Their whole function is the good conduct and discipline of the prison. Where they punish a prisoner it is because of a breach of discipline in the prison itself. Otherwise they do not have anything to do with the punishment of the prisoner beyond seeing that it is properly carried out according to law. The provision which the Government make is that the visiting justices should have power to modify the punishment, but they insert the condition that it is to be "on the application of the governor of the prison." From the form of the wording it would seem that the person who really decides the matter is the governor of the prison, and that the visiting justices are merely the countersigning authority. The governor of the prison is a very important public servant, but he does not, of course, have anything like the status of the visiting justices; and to give the impression, which the wording of this subsection does, that the act is to be the governor's, with only, as it were, the sanction of the visiting justices, seems to me to put the whole weight upon the wrong side. I do not very much care about actually leaving out the words if the Government would modify them. But the simplest course appears to me to be to leave out the words and then the decision would be the decision of the visiting justices alone, no doubt advised by the governor and with all the necessary reports from him, but there would then be no doubt as to whose business it would be and upon whom the responsibility would really lie for the decision.

Amendment moved— Page 10, line 43, leave out ("on the application of the governor of the prison").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I am quite ready to accept the noble Marquess's Amendment. As your Lordships know, there is not very much difference so far as the treatment of a prisoner is concerned between the third division and the second division, but there is a difference in the character of those who are there. It is right, I think, to give visiting justices this discretion. Therefore I am glad to accept the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17 agreed to.

Clause 18:

Consecutive sentences of imprisonment.

18. Where a sentence of imprisonment is passed on any person by a court of summary jurisdiction, the court may order that the sentence shall commence at the expiration of any other term of imprisonment to which that person has been previously sentenced, so however that where two or more sentences passed by a court of summary jurisdiction are ordered to run consecutively the aggregate terns of imprisonment shall not exceed six months.

THE EARL OF DERBY

I have been asked to move, on behalf of the justices of the City of Liverpool, an Amendment to add at the end of Clause 18 the words— unless such sentences included at least two sentences for indictable offences dealt with summarily by consent or on a plea of guilty, in which case the aggregate term of imprisonment shall not exceed twelve months. I believe that this particular Amendment was down on the Paper in the House of Commons and was, I understand, favourably entertained by the Home Secretary, but it was not actually moved through some error. I will not detain the House upon the Amendment now, but will put it down for Report, when I hope the noble and learned Viscount will see his way to accept it.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

If the noble Earl will hand his Amendment in tonight we will consider it before the Report stage, when I shall be able to give him my answer.

Clause 18 agreed to.

Clause 19:

Continuous bail.

19. Where a person is remanded on bail the recognisance may be conditioned for his appearance at every time and place to which during the course of the proceedings the hearing may be from time to time adjourned, without prejudice, however, to the power of the court to vary its order at any subsequent hearing.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I move to substitute the word "the" for the word "its" in the last line but one of this clause,. The object of this Amendment is to make sure that a Court which did not make the order can act in the second stage of the proceedings.

Amendment moved— Page 12, line 28, leave out ("its") and insert ("the").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 20 to 23 agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

In moving to insert a new clause after Clause 23 I do not desire to detain your Lordships for more than a moment or two, because I said all I have to say on this subject on the Second Reading. I would merely repeat that my new clause seeks to remedy what I think all your Lordships will agree is a serious mischief in the present condition of our law—namely, that a man may remain in prison untried for a very long period. I gave on the Second Reading an actual case in my own experience, where a man was imprisoned for five months before being tried and was then acquitted. In such a case a most flagrant injustice is inflicted, and the law provides no compensation whatever. If the man is admitted to bail, there is no such objection. But in certain circumstances magistrates do not admit the offender to bail, and I do not criticise them for that, because they are sometimes compelled through the circumstances of the case—the offender may be a tramp—to refuse to allow bail. But however poor the offender is and however ragged, that is no reason why he should be treated abominably unjustly, and he is treated abominably unjustly if he is imprisoned for a very long time without being, tried.

Amendment moved— After Clause 23, insert the following new clause:

Speedy trial of prisoners.

.Where a court of summary jurisdiction commits a person for trial and does not admit him to bail, or where on being offered bail such person is unable to enter into the recognisance required, the court shall if in their opinion an unduly long period must lapse before the trial can take place at the next assizes or quarter sessions, and if the person committed consents, commit him for trial at the Central Criminal Court, and the trial of a person so committed shall be proceeded with at that court and with the like consequences as if a writ of certiorari had been issued under the Central Criminal Courts Act, 1856.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

With the object which the noble Marquess has in view I am in complete sympathy, and I am in consultation with the Judges as to how the matter can be best dealt with. If we get the two new Judges recommended by the Committee over which Lord St. Aldwyn presided, we shall be able to do a great deal to remedy this. Even without it, the Judges have taken such steps as they can to meet this point. We all recognise the evil, and it occurs very often from want of Judicial strength. But the remedy proposed in this particular Amendment might be worse than the disease. Suppose a prisoner at Leeds is sent for trial to the Central Criminal Court, he would in that case have to bring his witnesses up from Leeds and that might be beyond his means. I think it is much better to try these cases locally if you can. In the case of the home counties a difficulty sometimes occurs even there. As the noble Marquess knows, there is already power to extend the district of the Central Criminal Court so as to take in these counties, though the home counties do not quite agree to this course being taken. I think myself that the greatest hope of a remedy lies in the action of the Judges themselves, particularly if their number is increased. Though I cannot accept the Amendment for the reasons I have pointed out, the matter is not being lost sight of but is actually under consideration.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I recognise the difficulty which the noble and learned Viscount has explained to your Lordships, and I do not intend to press the Amendment. But may I say this by way of suggestion. The difficulty arises in a most especial degree with respect to offences which are not tryable at Quarter Sessions and which must wait for Assizes. The particular case which I quoted to your Lordships was one such. It was a case of arson, and therefore could not be tried at Quarter Sessions. I do not know whether I shall shock the noble and learned Viscount, but it has always seemed to me that the distinction which is drawn between offences which are tryable at Quarter Sessions and offences which are not is a very arbitrary distinction, with the exception of homicide. It is quite right that cases of homicide should be reserved for Assizes. But I see no reason why arson should be distinguished from burglary, for example, which was made tryable at Quarter Sessions. Neither do I see why rape should be distinguished. If, therefore, the Lord Chancellor thought it wise to introduce a Bill making all these offences, with the exception of homicide, tryable at Quarter Sessions and then arranged for adjourned Quarter Sessions to consider cases such as I have described, he would meet the difficulty.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I will consider what the noble Marquess has said, and take advice about it.

LORD PARMOOR

As the noble Viscount is going to consider this question, will he remember that since the institution of the Court of Criminal Appeal there is ample security that anything done at Quarter Sessions if it is improperly done can be set aside in the interests of the prisoner. I might mention that as regards the cases brought before the Court of Criminal Appeal, less often has an appeal been successful from a Court of Quarter Sessions than from His Majesty's Judges of Assize. That has been the practical result. I think that if the jurisdiction of Quarter Sessions was enlarged, subject as it is now to appeal to the Court of Criminal Appeal, all difficulties under this head would be met.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clauses 24 and 25 agreed to.

Clause 26:

Provisions with respect to holders of licences and persons under police supervision. 54 & 55 Vict. c. 69. 34 & 35 Vict. c. 112.

26.—(1) An order under subsection (2) of section four of the Penal Servitude Act, 1891, remitting the requirements of sections five and eight of the Prevention of Crimes Act, 1871, in the case of any holder of a licence or person subject to the supervision of the police, may be made conditional on the observance of such conditions as may be specified in the order, and if the Secretary of State is satisfied that any condition imposed by the order has been contravened he may cancel the order

(2) Where His Majesty has been pleased to revoke the licence granted to any convict under the Penal Servitude Acts, 1853, to 1891 the convict shall thereupon be liable to be arrested without warrant by any constable and brought before a court of summary jurisdiction, and the court on being satisfied that he is the convict named in the licence and that the licence has been revoked, shall commit him to prison and forthwith send notice to the Secretary of State.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

This is a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 14, line 28, subsection (1), after ("remitting") insert ("any of").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 27:

Power to issue warrants of arrest in certain cases.

27. Where under any Act, whether passed before or after the commencement of this Act, there is power to arrest a person without warrant, a court of summary jurisdiction may, if satisfied by information on oath that the arrest cannot for any reason be effected without a warrant, issue a warrant for the arrest of the person.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

These are small drafting Amendments. They simply make a declaration of what the law at present is.

Amendments moved—

Page 15, line 1, leave out ("Where") and insert ("It is hereby declared that where at common law or")

Page 15, line 3, leave out from ("warrant") to the end of the clause and insert ("a warrant for his arrest may be issued").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 27, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 28:

Provisions as to evidence. 34 & 35 Vict. c. 112.

28.—(1) The record or extract by which a conviction may be proved under section eighteen of the Prevention of Crime Act, 1871, may in the case of a summary conviction consist of a copy of the minute or memorandum of the conviction entered in the register required to be kept under section twenty-two of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, and purporting to be signed by the clerk of the court, by whom the register is kept.

(2) The provisions of section thirty of the Children Act, 1908 (which enables the evidence of a child of tender years to be received though not given on oath), shall apply to proceedings against persons for offences not mentioned in that section, in like manner as they apply in offences mentioned in that section.

(3) The wife or husband of a person charged with bigamy may be called as a witness either for the prosecution or defence and without the consent of the person charged.

(4) In any proceedings before a court of summary jurisdiction to enforce the payment of a sum of money adjudged by that or any other court of summary jurisdiction to be paid by one person to another person, then

1. (a) if the person to whom the sum is ordered to be paid was an officer of a court of summary jurisdiction, the production of a certificate purporting to be signed by that officer that the sum has not been paid to him; and
2. (b) in any other case the production of a statutory declaration to a like effect purporting to be made by the person to whom the sum is ordered to be paid;

shall be evidence of the facts therein stated unless the court requires such officer or other person to be called as a witness.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The Amendment standing in my name is purely drafting. It is to omit from subsection (1), after 1879, the word "and."

Amendment moved— Page 15, line 12, leave out ("and").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 29:

Power of justices to order production of documents.

29. The provisions of section sixteen of the Indictable Offences Act, 1848, section seven of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1848, and section thirty-six of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, enabling a justice to issue a summons to any witness to attend to give evidence before a court of summary jurisdiction, shall be deemed to include the power to summon and require a witness to produce to such court books, plans, papers, documents, articles, goods, and things likely to be material evidence on the hearing of any charge, information, or complaint, and the provisions of those sections relating to the neglect or refusal of a witness, without just excuse, to obey a summons to attend to give evidence and to the issue of a warrant to compel him to do so and of a warrant committing him for failing to do so, shall apply accordingly.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The object of the Amendments standing in my name to this clause is to make it clear that all the provisions of the cited sections apply to the new provision which we have introduced into this Bill for securing the production of documents.

Amendments moved—

Page 16, line 7, leave out ("to obey a summons")

Page 16, line 8, leave out from ("evidence") to end of line 9 and insert ("or to be sworn or to give evidence").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 30:

Periodical payments ordered by courts of summary jurisdiction.

30.—(1) Where a court of summary jurisdiction orders money to be paid periodically by one person to another, the court may if it thinks fit order that the payment shall be made through an officer of the court or any other person or officer specified in the order.

(2) Where a court of summary jurisdiction has either before or after the commencement of this Act ordered money to be paid periodically by one person to another, the court which made the order, or any other court of summary jurisdiction for the same petty sessional division, may, if it thinks fit, order that the payment shall be made through an officer of the court or any other person or officer specified in the order.

(3) Any order made either before or after the commencement of this Act by a court of summary jurisdiction for the periodical payment of money may, upon cause being shown upon fresh evidence to the satisfaction of the court, be revoked, revived, or varied by a subsequent order.

(4) Where a court of summary jurisdiction makes an order for the periodical payment of money through an officer of the court or other person or officer specified in the order, the authority having the control of the fund out of which the salary of the clerk of that court is paid may pay to that officer or person out of that fund, in manner provided by rules made by the Secretary of State, a sum not exceeding five pounds per centum on the money actually paid through him in pursuance of the order, as remuneration to him in respect of the work done and expenses incurred by him in respect of the order.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The object of the new subsection which I propose to add to this clause is to make it clear that the jurisdiction under the Affiliation Orders Act, 1914, is not interfered with.

Amendment moved.

Page 16, line 37, after subsection 4, insert as a new subsection: (5) Nothing in this section shall prejudice or affect the powers and duties of courts of summary jurisdiction under the Affiliation Orders Act, 1914.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 30, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 31 agreed to.

Clause 32:

Recovery of arrears on bastardy orders, &c. 42 & 43 Vict. c. 49. 11 & 12 Vict. c. 43.

32.—(1) It is hereby declared that, notwithstanding anything in section fifty-four of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, the provisions of section eleven of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1848 (which relate to the time within which summary proceedings are to be taken), do not apply to proceedings for enforcing the payment of sums adjudged to be paid by an order in any matter of bastardy or by an order enforceable as an order of affiliation.

(2) Proceedings for the enforcement of an order in any matter of bastardy or of an order enforceable as an order of affiliation may be taken at any time after the expiration of fourteen clear days from the making of the order, and accordingly in section four of the Bastardy Laws Amendment Act, 1872, "after the expiration of fourteen clear clays" shall be substituted for "after the expiration of one calendar month."

(3) Where in any proceedings for the enforcement of an order in any matter of bastardy or of an order enforceable as an order of affiliation the court orders the defendant to be committed to prison then, unless the court otherwise directs, no arrears shall accrue under the order during the time that the defendant is in prison.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The Amendment to subsection (3) standing in my name is drafting.

Amendment moved—

Page 17, lines 21 and 22, leave out ("orders the defendant to be committed") and insert ("commits the defendant").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 32, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 33 agreed to.

Clause 34:

Appointment and remuneration of and accounting by justices' clerks.

34.—(1) Clerks to justices shall continue to be appointed as heretofore, but no appointment made after the commencement of this Act shall be valid unless and until it is confirmed by the Secretary of State, and the Secretary of State shall, before confirming any such appointment, take into consideration any representations that may be made to him, in the case of the appointment of a clerk to borough justices by the council of the borough, and in the case of the appointment of a cleric to county justices by the standing joint committee of the county.

(2) Notwithstanding the provisions of any other general or local Act to the contrary, the salaries of clerks to justices shall be fixed and may from time to time be varied—

1. (a) in the case of a clerk to borough justices, by the justices of the borough; and
2. (b) in the ease of a clerk to county justices, by the standing joint committee of the county:

Provided that—

1. (i) in the case of the salary of a cleric to borough justices, the council of the borough or the clerk; and
2. (ii) in the case of the salary of a clerk to county justices, the county justices for whom the clerk acts or the clerk,

may appeal to the Secretary of State against the decision of the justices or standing joint com- mittee, as the case may be, and the amount of the salary shall thereupon be determined by the Secretary of State.

(3) If any county justices make representations to the standing joint committee of the county with a view to the variation of the salary of their clerk, the standing joint committee shall at a meeting of which special notice has been given take into consideration the question of varying the salary.

(4) The authority by whom the salary of a clerk is fixed may allow him such special remuneration in addition to his salary as they may, subject to the approval of the Secretary of State, determine, in respect of any duties which were not taken into account in fixing his salary.

(5) Nothing in the foregoing provisions of this section shall apply to clerks at metropolitan Mice courts nor to the clerks to the justices of the city of London nor to the clerk to any stipendiary magistrate other than a stipendiary magistrate appointed under the Municipal Corporations Act, 1832.

(6) If any clerk to justices fails without sufficient reason to account for or pay over any sum within one month from the time when he was required to account for or pay over the sum under section six of the Justices' Clerks Act, 1877, he shall be deemed to have wilfully omitted to account for or pay over that sum within the meaning of that section.

LORD PARMOOR

I desire to move to omit the proviso to subsection (2)— Provided that—

1. (i) in the case of the salary of a clerk to borough justices, the council of the borough or the clerk; and
2. (ii) in the case of the salary of a clerk to county justices, the county justices for whom the clerk acts or the clerk

may appeal to the Secretary of State against the decision of the justices or standing joint committee, as the case may be, and the amount of the salary shall thereupon be determined by the Secretary of State. This is an entirely new proposal. The result of it would be that the salaries of clerks to county justices and of clerks to borough justices would no longer be fixed as at present by the local authority, but would be fixed in future by the Home Secretary. That is an interference with our local system of administration which I think is entirely in the wrong direction. There is no reason whatever why the salaries of these clerks should not be fixed as they are at the present time by the Standing Joint Committee in the case of the clerks to county justices and by the borough justices in the case of the other clerks. I do not suggest that the Home Secretary would act unjustly in a matter of this kind but it is a question of principle, and I shall ask your Lordships to say that there is no reason whatever for taking this power out of the hands of the local administrators who are responsible for these officers. The justices have full knowledge of the local circumstances, and I have never heard of any complaint that the salaries have been fixed on an improper scale. The form in which the proviso stands is that there may be an appeal to the Secretary of State, but that means that in practically every case the Secretary of State would have the fixing of the salaries. Whenever a justices' clerk was not content with the salary which he was receiving he would, as of right, be able to go to the Secretary of State and over-rule the opinion of the local justices, and possible an enhanced salary might be given to which, in their opinion, the officer was not entitled. At the present time if the Standing Joint Committee or the borough justices think that a variation ought to be made in the sense of increasing the salary, they have power to apply to the Secretary of State for the Home Department. That is done in the ordinary course of administration, and the salary may be varied as they desire; but at the present moment the clerk cannot make the application himself. I sincerely hope that in a Bill which deals with criminal justice administration we shall not introduce a novel interference with local administration which is quite alien to the general purpose of this Bill.

Amendment moved— Page 18, line 7, leave out from ("provided that") down to ("Secretary of State") in line 16.—(Lord Parmoor.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My noble and learned friend has expressed some surprise as to how this provision came in the Bill, but it simply carries out the recommendation of the conference which took place. A Departmental Committee was appointed by the Home Office which was virtually a conference, because it consisted of some of the most experienced people in these matters. In their third recommendation the conference expressed their strong opinion that the Secretary of State should remain the ultimate authority for fixing fees and salaries, and they recommended that, whilst the justices should fix and vary the salary, the right of appeal should exist. As the noble and learned Lord knows, there have been very hard cases where the salaries were not up to the level in other counties. As this was the unanimous and strong recommendation of a body of great experience and as the proposal is backed with a very large weight of authority, I hope the noble and learned Lord will not press his Amendment.

LORD PARMOOR

I do not like to press the Amendment against the wish of the noble and learned Viscount, but in spite of what he has said I regard this as an extremely important matter of principle. I do not believe for a moment that if the general opinion of the local administrators was ascertained they would desire that this power of fixing the rate at which the justices' clerks should be paid should be taken away from the local authorities and vested in the Home Office. The change proposed is a very big one, and I object to its being made in a Bill which has to do with criminal justice administration. Perhaps the noble and learned Viscount will reconsider the matter between now and the Report stage, in which case I will withdraw the Amendment now; but I give him notice that on Report I shall be compelled to press it to a Division.

LORD MONK BRETTON

I should like to say that this matter did come before the County Councils Association, but they had not time to consider it, having regard to other important matters connected with the Finance Bill. But though the Association did not consider it, it was stated by individuals that there was a feeling among Standing Joint Committees against their powers being interfered with in the way proposed in this clause.

LORD BARNARD

As a member of a Standing Joint Committee I have had a good deal of experience in connection with this question of the salaries of justices' clerks, and I sincerely hope that the advice of Lord Parmoor will be followed, and that the noble and learned Viscount will give us an assurance that the matter will be very carefully considered before this proposal is passed into law.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

As the noble and learned Lord proposes to postpone his Amendment until Report, I will consider the point again in the meantime. But I might mention that in the other House, where representatives of the local authorities were present, this point was very much discussed and they were unanimous in supporting the recommendation of the conference.

LORD PARMOOR

I have had an opportunity of discussing the matter with some members of the other House who do not take that view. There is this further point to be remembered as regards the other House, that whenever there is a question of giving increased powers to a body such as justices' clerks there is a disposition amongst many Members to go with the justices' clerks rather than take the broad view which I hope your Lordships will take on this matter.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The Amendment in subsection (3) which stands in my name is purely drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 18, line 17, leave out ("any county justices") and insert ("the justices for any petty sessional division").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The object of the words which I now move to add at the end of subsection (6) is to prevent common informer actions. There are a considerable number of people who make a living by looking up technical breaches and acting as common informers. It may be desirable to keep that in some cases, but it is not desirable in cases like this. Therefore I propose to insert words to make it impossible to bring that kind of action except at the instance of the person or authority to whom the account or payment is required to be made.

Amendment moved— Page 18, line 37, after ("section") insert ("but no person shall sue for a sum recoverable under that section as amended by this section, except the person or authority to whom the account or payment is required to be made").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MONK BRETTON

The new subsection which I propose to add to this clause is a small administrative Amendment for the convenience of county and county borough councils. For want of time it has not been approved by a resolution of the County Councils Association, but it was left for me to move it as I thought fit. The object of the Amendment is to enable local authorities to audit fines and fees which they receive from the clerk. The clause provides that they shall receive these fines and fees promptly, and the additional subsection which I move is to enable county and county borough councils to audit these fines and fees.

Amendment moved— Page 18, line 37, after subsection (6) insert the following new subsection: (7) As soon as nosy be after the close of each quarter or any less interval fixed by the local authority for which the account is made up, a clerk to justices shall submit to the local authority for examination the account of fines, fees and other sums received by him, together with vouchers and authorities for receipts and payments, and shall produce for inspection all books and documents that may be required for such examination. If any clerk wilfully omits or refuses to submit such account or vouchers or authorities Or refuses to produce such boas or other documents, he shall forfeit for every such omission or refusal twenty pounds to be recovered by action of debt by any person who may sue for the same.—(Lord Honk Brellon.)

THE LORD CHANGELLOR

I am well aware of the point which the noble Lord raises, but it is, we think, sufficiently covered. We are particularly anxious not to carry the law too far, and my advisers think that it would be dangerous to accept the noble Lord's subsection. They mention that the point is met by two Statutes, In the Justices Clerks Act, 1877, Section 5, there is a provision for the clerk paying over all moneys to the county or borough treasurer in such manner as may be from time to time directed; and the Criminal Justice Administration Act, 1851, Section 11, pro-vides for regulations by the local authority prescribing time manner in which the clerk shall account for fees, etc. We feel that the case is sufficiently covered by those provisions, and we are averse to going further.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 35 and 36 agreed to.

Clause 37:

Right of appeal from decision of cocoa of summary jurisdiction.

37.—(1) Any person aggrieved by any conviction of a court of summary jurisdiction in respect of any offence who did not plead guilty or admit the truth of the information may appeal from the conviction in manner provided by the Summary Jurisdiction Acts to a court of quarter sessions.

(2) An appeal shall lie from any order made by a court of summary jurisdiction under the enactments relating to bastardy, or front any refusal by a court of summary jurisdiction to make such an order, or from the revocation or revival by a court of summary jurisdiction of such an order; and notice of any such appeal may be given at any time within one month from the date on which the decision appealed from was given.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The Amendments standing in my name to this clause are purely drafting, their object being to correct difficulties got into by the Amendments made in the other House.

Amendments moved—

Page 19, line 24, after ("lie") insert ("to a court of quarter sessions in manner provided by the Summary Jurisdiction Acts")

Page 19, line 27, leave out ("or revival") and insert ("revival or variation")

Page 19, line 28, leave out from ("order")to the end of the clause.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 37, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 38 agreed to.

Clause 39:

Convictions on indictments.

39.—(1) Where a prisoner is arraigned on an indictment for any offence, and can lawfully be convicted on such indictment of some other offence not charged in such indictment, he may plead not guilty of the offence charged in the indictment, but guilty of such other offence.

(2) If on the trial of any indictment for larceny it is proved that the defendant took any chattel, money, or valuable security in question in any such manner as would amount in law to obtaining it by false pretences with intent to defraud, the jury may acquit the defendant of larceny and find him guilty of obtaining the chattel, money, or valuable security by false pretences, and thereupon he shall be liable to be punished accordingly.

LORD PARMOOR

I move to omit subsection (2). The effect of this subsection, if it remains in its present form, is to put a hardship in the way of a prisoner, and I am sure your Lordships are desirous, apart, from any question of convenience, that nothing should be introduced into this Bill which should in any way imperil the fair hearing which I believe prisoners now have under our criminal system. This subsection provides that if on the trial of any indictment for larceny it is proved that the defendant took any chattel, money, or valuable security in question in any such manner as would amount in law to obtain- ing it by false pretences with intent to defraud, the jury may acquit the defendant of larceny and find him guilty of obtaining the chattel, money, or valuable security by false pretences, and thereupon he shall be liable to be punished accordingly. I should be the last person to raise any objection to an amendment of our criminal law which placed larceny and the obtaining of money by false pretences as one and the same crime under a proper definition, but it is a very different matter to say that on an indictment for one offence a prisoner may be found guilty of a charge which could only be brought against him under the other head. If this subsection is omitted matters will stand as they arc at present. I will assume the position of a prisoner who has come into the dock knowing that a charge of larceny is made against him and who is prepared to meet that charge and to show that it is in itself untrue. If this subsection is allowed to remain in the Bill, although the prisoner could prove that he had not been guilty of larceny he could be convicted for a different offence—namely, for obtaining money under false pretences; and, as the noble and learned Viscount knows, there is no more technical part of our criminal law than that which deals with the obtaining of money by false pretences. I object in principle to this subsection. I object to a prisoner being charged with one offence and convicted of a different offence. He ought to know exactly what it is he is charged with in order that he may direct his defence to that particular matter, and he should be found "not guilty" if he is not guilty of that offence. If he is found "guilty" he should be found guilty on the charge made against him in the indictment under which he is being tried. On these grounds I hope that subsection (2) will be omitted.

Amendment moved— Leave out subsection (2).—(Lord Parmoor.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I hope that my noble and learned friend will not press this Amendment. The point is a very technical one. In the first place, the principle has been applied in a great many other cases; and, in the second place, if subsection (2) is struck out there will be a very curious anomaly. Under the Larceny Act, if a person is indicted for obtaining a chattel, money, or valuable security by false pretences and it is found that he obtained the chattel, money, or valuable security in such a way as to amount to larceny, there is express provision that he can still be found guilty of false pretences although the facts prove what would amount to larceny. But, on the other hand, if he is indicted for larceny, which is the bigger thing, and it is proved that he obtained the chattel, money, or valuable security by false pretences, at the present time he cannot be convicted of larceny or false pretences and he gets off scot free. That is a scandal in the law. If there were any danger of doing harm I would pay the greatest attention to my noble and learned friend's arguments, but my advisers, who are gentlemen of great experience, say that justice is every now and then defeated for the want of this provision, and they are anxious to put the law on a proper basis.

LORD PARMOOR

it is quite true that on a charge of larceny a prisoner cannot be found guilty of false pretences. The reason for that is that the crime of false pretences is a very technical and difficult one in our law, and a prisoner who is being charged with it ought to have full notice in order that he might direct his defence to the technical matters involved in the charge. I think a prisoner ought to be discharged if he is not found guilty of the charge made against him in the indictment. He might be again charged with having obtained money by false pretences, but then he would know the nature of the charge. This subsection would create a change in the law which, in my opinion, would be highly detrimental to an undefended prisoner, of whom I am particularly thinking. I will withdraw the Amendment for the present, but I wish to make it quite clear that it is my intention, unless the Government propose other words, to take a Division upon it on the Report stage.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I have the greatest respect for my noble and learned friend's knowledge and great experience of these matters, but I cannot help thinking that in this matter he is pressing a technical principle too far. But I should be glad if he would raise the matter again upon Report, and in the meantime I can take advice about it. And possibly the noble and learned Lord will confer with some of those who are communicating with me upon the subject, and see whether he cannot conic to an agreement. I do not want to have any difference of opinion with the noble and learned Lord, but I fear that if I agree to the Amendment some very bad ruffians will escape.

LORD PARMOOR

On the understanding that I may have to divide your Lordships' House upon the Amendment on Report, I withdraw my Amendment now.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 39 agreed to.

Clause 40:

Rules 42 & 43 Vict. c. 49.

40.—(1) The power of the Lord Chancellor to make rules under section twenty-nine of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, shall extend to the making of rules for regulating the manner in which convictions and orders of courts of summary jurisdiction are to be drawn up, and in such cases as may be provided for by the rules, the transmission of such convictions and orders and any other documents therewith to the clerk of the peace and the filing of them by him, and for regulating the procedure in legal proceedings which under any Act, whether passed before or after the commencement of this Act other than the Summary Jurisdiction Acts, are to be taken before any police or stipendiary magistrate or other court of summary jurisdiction.

(2) His Majesty may, by Order in Council, make rules extending the operation of the Summary Jurisdiction (Process) Act, 1881, as amended by any subsequent, enactment (which relates to the service and execution in Scotland of process issued by courts of summary jurisdiction in England, and in England of process issued by courts of summary jurisdiction and sheriff courts in Scotland, and to the jurisdiction of courts in England and Scotland respectively in bastardy proceedings), so as to make the provisions of that Act, subject to the necessary adaptations, applicable as between any one part of the British Islands and any other part of the British Islands in like manner as it applies as between England and Scotland. This subsection slain extend to the Isle of Man.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

This Amendment in subsection (1) is not an alteration of substance; it is really drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 20, line 19, after ("him") insert. ("and for annulling, altering, or adding to the forms contained in the schedule to the Indictable Offences Act, 1848").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendment is necessary for the purpose of enabling rules to be made for regulating procedure.

Amendment moved— Page 20, line 20, after ("procedure") insert ("of courts of summary jurisdiction under this Act, and the procedure") and after ("Act") insert ("whether general or local and").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

These words were in the Amendment as it was moved in the other House by the Home Secretary, but were omitted in deference to doubts which were raised as to the propriety of legislating for the Channel Islands. I think there can be no doubt as to the propriety of so legislating. Whenever the matter is one which concerns the Empire generally it is customary to legislate in such cases, and it is all to the good that it should be done.

Amendment moved.— Page 20, line 37, after ("Man") insert ("and the Channel Islands, and the Royal Courts of the Channel Islands shall register the same accordingly").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 41:

Definitions.

41.—For the purposes of this Act—

(1) The expression "sentenced to imprisonment" shall include cases where imprisonment is imposed by a court on any person either with or without the option of a fine, or in respect of the nonpayment of any suns of money, or for failing to do or abstaining from doing any act or thing required to be done or left undone, and the expression" sentence of imprisonment" shall be construed accordingly:

(2) The expressions "fine," "stun adjudged to be paid by a conviction," and "sum adjudged to be paid by an order," have the same meanings as in the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I move, after the words "For the purposes of this Act," at the beginning of the clause, to insert "unless the context otherwise requires." This is purely drafting.

Amendment inoved— Page 20, line 38, after ("Act") insert ("unless the context otherwise requires").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 41, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 42 agreed to.

Clause 43:

Application to Ireland.

43.—(1) The provisions of sections one to four inclusive, sections seven to twelve inclusive, sections sixteen to twenty-one inclusive, section twenty-four, subsection (2) of section twenty-five, sections twenty-six and twenty-seven, subsections (2), (3), and (4) of section twenty-eight, sections thirty-five, thirty-seven, and thirty-nine, and subsection (1) of section forty-one of this Act shall apply to Ireland, subject to the following modifications, namely:—

1. (a) references to the Lord Lieutenant shall be substituted for references to the Secretary of State, and references to the General Prisons Board for Ireland shall he substituted for references to the Prison Commissioners:
2. (b) a reference to the Prisons (Ireland) Acts, 1826 to 1907, shall be substituted for any reference to the Prison Acts, 1865 to 1902, a reference to sections thirty-six, thirty-seven, thirty-eight, and thirty-nine of the General Prisons (Ireland) Act, 1877, shall be substituted for the reference to sections twenty-four, twenty-five, twenty-six, and twenty-seven of the Prison Act, 1877, and a reference to section one of the Fine or Imprisonment (Scotland and Ireland) Act, 1899, shall be substituted for the reference to section nine of the Prison Act, 1898:
3. (c) the reference to the Costs in Criminal Cases Act, 1908, and the provision of section two of this Act relative to payment by instalments, shall not apply.

(2) A court of summary jurisdiction, in fixing the amount of any fine to be imposed on an offender, shall take into consideration, amongst other things, the means of the offender so far as they appear or are known to the court.

(3) Proceedings for the recovery in a summary manner of a penalty for an offence under the Births and Deaths Registration Act (Ireland), 1880, may be commenced at any time within three years after the commission of the offence.

(4) Where upon summary conviction an offender is adjudged to pay a penalty exceeding five pounds, the offender in ease of non-payment thereof may without any warrant of distress be committed to prison for any term not exceeding the period for which he might be committed to prison in default of distress: Provided that where time is not allowed for the payment of the penalty a warrant of commitment shall not be issued in the first instance unless it appears to the court that the offender has no goods or insufficient goods to satisfy the penalty, or that the levy of distress would be more injurious to him or his family than imprisonment.

(5) Upon any information or complaint laid or made before a divisional justice of the police district of Dublin metropolis of an offence punishable on summary conviction, if the person charged resides within the limits of that district, the justice shall notwithstanding that the offence has been or is alleged to have been committed outside those limits, have all the like powers jurisdiction, and authority as he has upon an information or complaint laid or made of a similar offence committed or alleged to have been committed within those limits.

(6) So much of section twenty-two of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act, 1851, as relates to the liability of persons aiding, abetting, counselling, or procuring the commission of offences punishable on summary conviction shall, as amended by any subsequent enactment, extend to the police district of Dublin metropolis; and every person who aids, abets, counsels, or procures the commission of any such offence may be proceeded against and convicted in that district in any case where the principal offender may be convicted in that district, or where the offence of aiding, abetting, counselling, or procuring was committed in that district.

(7) Section three (which relates to boards of visitors for convict prisons), section six (which relates to divisions of prisoners), section eleven (which relates to orders for production of prisoners), and, so far as respects sentences of imprisonment passed after the commencement of this Act, section twelve (which relates to calculation of term of sentence) of the Prison Act, 1898, shall, as amended by this Act, extend to Ireland subject to the following modifications, namely:—

1. (a) references to the Lord Lieutenant shall be substituted for references to the Secretary of State;
2. (b) references to rules made by the General Prisons Board for Ireland with the approval of the Lord Lieutenant and Privy Council under the General Prisons (Ireland) Act, 1877, shall be substituted for any references to prison rules or special prison rules;
3. (c) a reference to section forty-nine of the General Prisons (Ireland) Act, 1877, shall be substituted for the reference to sections forty and forty-one of the Prison Act, 1877, and references to provisions of the Prison Act, 1865, or the Criminal Procedure Act, 1853, shall not apply.

(8) For removing doubts it is declared that in section twenty-four of the General Prisons (Ireland) Act, 1877, and section three of the Prisons (Ireland) Amendment Act, 1884 (which relate to visiting committees of prisons), the expressions "grand jury" and "grand juries" respectively, include, in the case of the county of Dublin, a grand jury of that county impanelled at a commission of oyer and terminer and general gaol delivery.

(9) The Lord Chancellor may make rules for the purposes of this Act regulating the procedure to be followed, and prescribing the forms to be used in summary proceedings and adapting to the requirements of this Act any forms relating to summary proceedings prescribed by or in pursuance of any other Act, and all rules so made shall be laid as soon as may be before both Houses of Parliament.

(10) Where a person convicted of an offence by a court of summary jurisdiction is committed to prison by the court under section ten of this Act without sentence he may appeal under the Summary Jurisdiction Acts against the conviction, and the provisions of those Acts with respect to appeals shall apply accordingly in like manner as if the conviction were an order for a term of imprisonment exceeding one month and the committal were a committal in execution of such order. Provided that the time for serving notice of appeal shall run from the date of the committal, told the appellate court, if it confirms the conviction, shall have power to pass the like sentence and to deal with the ease in the like manner in all respects as if the offender had been brought before it for sentence in pursuance of the said section. Upon any information, summons, or complaint laid or made before a court of summary jurisdiction in Ireland wherein the defendant is called upon to show cause why such defendant should not be bound over to keep the peace or be of good behaviour, the defendant shall be entitled to call witnesses and tender evidence at the hearing of the information, summons, or complaint.

(11) Save as provided in this section, the foregoing provisions of this Act shall not extend to Ireland.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I move to delete "(3)" from subsection (1) of Clause 43. There, is a difference between the law of Ireland and the law of this country. At present subsection (3) of Clause 28 enables the wife or the husband of a person charged with bigamy to be called as a witness for the prosecution or defence without the consent of the person charged. The application of this to Ireland is objected to owing to an understanding which was come to on the passing of the Criminal Law Amendment Act. Therefore as the provision in its present form would give rise to controversy we propose to exclude its application to Ireland.

Amendment moved— Page 24, line 17, leave out ("(3)").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I move the next Amendment upon the same ground.

Amendment moved— Page 24, line 18, leave out ("thirty-seven") and insert ("thirty-six").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The object of the next Amendment is to make the matter quite clear.

Amendment moved— Page 24, line 38, leave out ("the reference to") and insert ("references to the Court of Criminal Appeal, the Criminal Appeal Act, 1907, and").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I move to insert the words which stand in my name. They relate to subsection (2) of Clause 20, which removes the eight days' limitation. There is no such limitation in Ireland except in the Dublin police district. The object of the Amendment is to put this right.

Amendment moved— Page 24, line 40, after ("apply") insert: ("and (d)subsection (2) of section twenty of this Act shall apply as respects the police district of Dublin metropolis only, and a reference to section twenty-one of the Indictable offences (Ireland) Act, 1849, shall be substituted for the reference therein to section twenty-one of the indictable Offences Act, 1848").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

This, again, is an Amendment of the same kind, to put the Bill as it applies to Ireland on the footing of the existing Irish legislation.

Amendment moved— Page 25, line 19, after subsection (4) insert: (5) So much of section three of the Fines Act (Ireland), 1851, as requires that a warrant for the execution of an Omer of a divisional justice of the police district of Dublin metropolis for the imposition or levy of a penal sum shall be issued within one week from the making of the order shall cease to have effect.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next is a drafting Amendment for the same purpose.

Amendment moved— Page 26, line 34, after subsection (9) insert: (10) An appeal under section twenty-seven of the Dublin Police Act, 1837, section twenty-three of the Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland) Act, 1851, or section twenty-four of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act, 1851, against a conviction of a court of summary jurisdiction in respect of an offence shall lie whatever may be the amount of the fine or the term of the imprisonment imposed.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendment is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 26, line 40, leave out from ("accordingly") to ("upon") in page 27, line 7.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 44:

Short title, commencement, and repeal.

44.—(1) This Act may be cited as the Criminal Justice Administration Act, 1914, and shall come into operation on the first day of January nineteen hundred and fifteen.

(2) The enactments mentioned in the Fourth Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that schedule.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The first of the Amendments refers back to the Amendment which we have already made in Clause 10. The second and third Amendments bring forward the date of the commencement of the rest of the Bill from the 1st of January, 1915, to the 1st of December 1914.

Amendments moved—

Page 27, line 17, after ("shall") insert ("save as otherwise expressly provided")

Page 27, line 18, leave out ("January") and inserted ("December" and leave out ("fifteen") and insert ("fourteen").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 44, as amended, agreed to.

First Schedule:

LORD PARMOOR

The noble Viscount, Lord St. Aldwyn, has asked me to move the Amendment standing in his name. I do not think it necessary to say anything about it. The question is whether it ought to be included in order that proper charges can be made under the First Schedule.

Amendment moved— Part I, page 28, after line 22 insert: Summary Adjudications: For the performance of all the several duties in respect of any charge for an offence (other than an indictable offence) punishable on summary conviction 4s. 0d.

—(Lord Parmoor.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I think this is a very good Amendment, and I gladly accept it. The alteration which I made in the wording of Clause 6 enables us to make rules which will modify the form sufficiently to cover this Amendment and make it work.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

This is a purely drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 32, line 18, after the first ("any") insert ("fee for").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Second and Third Schedules agreed to.

Fourth Schedule:

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

This Amendment is merely to repeal an Act which is dead.

Amendment moved— Page 33, line 31, third column, leave out ("Section one") and insert ("The Whole Act").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendments are merely consequential on the application of Clause 36 to Ireland.

Amendments moved—

Page 34, line 12, at end insert:
1 & 2 Will. 4, c. 44.	The Tumultuous Risings (Ireland) Act, 1831	In sections two, three, four, five and six, the words "twice or thrice."

line 14,at end insert:
5 & 6 Vict. c. 28.	The Capital Punishment (Ireland) Act, 1842.	In section eight, the words "twice or thrice."

—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The Amendment which I now move is purely drafting. The word "same," as my noble and learned friends know, is a very ambiguous term.

Amendment moved— Page 34, line 45, leave out ("the same") and insert ("those words and sections").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The next Amendment is purely consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 35, line 33, third column, after ("six") insert ("and section nine").—(The Lord Chancellor.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Fourth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

The Report of Amendments to be received on Monday next, and Bill to be printed as amended.