Lords Sitting of 11 March 1913

Preamble
The Lord ARUNDELL of WARDOUR—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his kinsman.
The Lord WIGAN (E. Crawford)—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—

Dundee Boundaries.

Dundee Corporation (Improvements and Tramways).

Edinburgh Corporation.

Greenock Harbour (Constitution, &c.).

Greenock Port and Harbours.

Leith Harbour and Docks.

Lothian Railways.

North British Railway.

Also the Certificates that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have not been complied with:—

London County Council (Tramways and Trolley Vehicles and Improvements).

Galway (Barna) Railways and Harbour.

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

MIDLAND RAILWAY (SUPERANNUATION FUND).
Petition of the Midland Railway Company under their Common Seal praying for leave to bring in a Bill to enable the Midland Railway Company to make further contributions to the Superannuation Fund, established under the Midland Railway (Additional Powers) Act, 1867, and for other purposes, together with a copy of the proposed Bill annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.
ABERYSTWYTH CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
ARUNDELL ESTATE (CLOSING OF ARUNDELL STREET AND PANTON SQUARE) BILL. [H.L.]
BRADFORD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
BRIGHTON CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
BROADSTAIRS AND ST. PETER'S URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
COLNE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
COLONIAL AND FOREIGN BANKS GUARANTEE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
EBBW VALE WATER BILL [H.L.]
ELY VALLEY GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
GOVERNESSES BENEVOLENT INSTITUTION BILL. [H.L.]
HOVE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
IPSWICH DOCK BILL. [H.L.]
LEEDS CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
LEICESTER CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
LIMERICK HARBOUR COMMISSIONERS BILL. [H.L.]
METROPOLITAN WATER BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
MORLEY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
NORTHAMPTON CORPORATION WATER BILL. [H.L.]
OXFORD UNIVERSITY (ST. EDMUND HALL AND GATCOMBE RECTORY) BILL. [H.L.]
PAGE ESTATES BILL. [H.L.]
READING CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
ROCHFORD RURAL DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
SOUTHEND-ON-SEA CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
SWANSEA HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
EDINBURGH CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
GREENOCK HARBOUR (CONSTITUTION, &c.) BILL. [H.L.]
GREENOCK PORT AND HARBOURS BILL. [H.L.]
LEITH HARBOUR AND DOCKS BILL. [H.L.]
LOTHIAN RAILWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
Presented, and read 1a.
BARRY RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
CAMBRIAN RAILWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
CARDIFF RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
CENTRAL LONDON RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
CITY AND SOUTH LONDON RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
GRAYS AND TILBURY GAS BILL. [H.L.]
GREAT EASTERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
HALKYN DISTRICT MINES DRAINAGE BILL. [H.L.]
HASTINGS TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
ISLE OF WIGHT CENTRAL RAILWAY (GODSHILL TRANSFER) BILL. [H.L.]
LLANTRISANT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
LONDON AND SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
LONDON ELECTRIC RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
METROPOLITAN DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
METROPOLITAN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
PORT TALBOT RAILWAY AND DOCKS BILL. [H.L.]
PORTHCAWL AND DISTRICT GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
REDCAR, COATHAM, MARSKE AND SALTBURN GAS BILL. [H.L]
SLOUGH GAS BILL. [H.L.]
SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE MOND GAS BILL. [H.L.]
SOUTH STAFFORDSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
TYNEMOUTH GAS BILL. [H.L.]
UNITED DISTRICT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
WEST HAMPSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
WIMBLEDON AND SUTTON RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
WORTHING GAS BILL. [H.L.]
NORTH BRITISH RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Presented, read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

BETTING INDUCEMENTS BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to prevent the writing, printing, publishing, or circulating in the United Kingdom of advertisements of any betting or tipsters business—Was presented by the Lord Newton; read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 2.)

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Appointed: The Lords following, with the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

M. Crewe (L. Privy Seal).

D. Bedford.

D. Marlborough.

D. Northumberland.

M. Lansdowne.

M. Salisbury.

M. Bath.

M. Lincolnshire.

E. Chesterfield (L. Steward).

E. Derby.

E. Denbigh.

E. Jersey.

E. Lauderdale.

E. Waldegrave.

E. Cadogan.

E. Howe.

E. Camperdown.

E. Dartrey.

E. Lytton.

E. Cromer.

V. Knutsford.

V. Churchill.

L. Zouche of Haryngworth.

L. Barnard.

L. Balfour.

L. Ribblesdale.

L. Colchester.

L. Kintore (E. Kintore).

L. Belper.

L. Brougham and Vaux.

L. Kinnaird.

L. Hylton.

L. Fermanagh (E. Erne).

L. Reay.

L. Newton.

L. Welby.

L. Ludlow.

L. Ritchie.

L. Ashton of Hyde.

L. Emmott.

All petitions relating to the Standing Orders which shall be presented during the present Session referred to the Committee unless otherwise ordered.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
The Lords following, viz.:

M. Crewe (L. Privy Seal).

D. Bedford.

D. Devonshire.

D. Northumberland.

M. Lansdowne.

E. Lauderdale.

E. Waldegrave.

E. Camperdown.

V. Churchill.

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L. Balfour.

L. Ribblesdale.

L. Granard (E. Granard).

L. Kintore (E. Kintore).

L. Belper.

L. Brougham and Vaux.

L. Herschell.

L. Hindlip.

L. Newton.

L. Colebrooke.

with the Chairman of Committees, were appointed a Committee to select and propose to the House the names of the Five Lords to form a Select Committee for the consideration of each opposed Private Bill.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Select Committee appointed: The Lords following with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord President, the Lord Privy Seal and the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

D. Devonshire.

D. Northumberland.

M. Lansdowne.

M. Bath.

M. Cholmondeley.

M. Lincolnshire.

E. Chesterfield (L. Steward).

E. Clarendon.

E. Essex.

E. Stanhope.

E. Waldegrave.

E. Beauchamp.

E. Camperdown.

E. Halsbury.

E. Plymouth.

V. Gordon (E. Aberdeen).

V. Cross.

V. Knutsford.

V. Churchill.

L. Balfour.

L. Ribblesdale.

L. Colchester.

L. Rosebery (E. Rosebery).

L. Poltimore.

L. Kintore (E. Kintore).

L. Belper.

L. Monk Bretton.

L. Welby.

L. Burghclere.

L. Atkinson.

L. Sanderson.

L. Colebrooke.

PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
Report from the Committee of Selection that the Lords following be proposed to
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the House as the panel of Lords to act as Commissioners under the Act, viz.:

E. Mansfield.

L. Bowes (L. Strathmore and Kinghorn);

agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly.

THE CHURCH IN WALES.
*THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, the request which I make is that His Majesty's Government will grant a Return of the correspondence which followed upon the presentation to this House and the circulation in the country of a Memorandum upon the finances of the Church in Wales. That Memorandum was prepared under the direction of his Majesty's Government with a view, as we were told, to making the position quite clear. It seemed to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners that it was desirable to send a letter in reply to the document that was published, inasmuch as the information therein contained claimed to be mainly based upon facts which were furnished by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. It seemed to the Commissioners on reading the Memorandum that the facts had either been inaccurately understood or had had strange conclusions drawn from them. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners, therefore, wrote to the Minister responsible for the Established Church (Wales) Bill, and we are anxious that this explanatory letter of the Commissioner should be before the public together with the reply which we received from the Home Secretary. I hope that His Majesty's Government will see no difficulty in allowing these letters to receive the same publication as the document to which I have referred.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty for a Return of the correspondence between the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and the Home Secretary with reference to the "Memorandum of Property of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire" presented to this House before the Motion for the Second Reading of the Established Church (Wales) Bill in the last Session of Parliament.—(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.)
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, His Majesty's Government have no opposition to offer to the granting of this Return, and will be glad to give the correspondence for which the most rev. Primate has asked.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

LIFE-SAVING APPLIANCES.
LORD INVERCLYDE LORD INVERCLYDE rose to ask whether the Rules for Life-Saving Appliances made under Section 427 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, were duly made in pursuance of the provisions of that section, having regard to the fact that they were expressed to come into operation on March 1, 1913, and purport to have been brought into operation on that day, and that they were only laid before the House of Lords on January 21, 1913, a date less than forty days before the date of coming into operation; and whether, in view of the uncertainty as to the validity of the Rules under these circumstances and of the difficulty experienced by shipowners and others, specially in the Home Trade, in complying with the requirements owing to insufficiency of time between the publication of the Rules in final form and their purported enforcement, His Majesty's Government will have the Rules withdrawn and further Rules laid before both Houses of Parliament in compliance with the above-mentioned section; and to move for Papers.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I wish to say at once that in raising this matter I do not desire for a moment to criticise or comment upon the Rules which have been made by the Board of Trade for life-saving at sea and which have been accepted by shipowners for good or for worse, because the shipowners, as soon as they are able to do so, are quite prepared to carry them out. The reason I raise the question is that it has been found impossible, especially in the Home Trade, to comply with the Regulations by the 1st of this month, as it was a practical impossibility to get these life-saving appliances delivered in time. It was not possible for shipowners to order them earlier, because, although the Board of Trade were good enough to consult all those interested, until the Rules were finally published it was not possible for us to know what appliances would be required. On representations being made to them the Board of Trade recognised this, and temporarily modified the Rules by allowing shipowners, instead of fitting their vessels with life-saving appliances, to supply them with life-belts and life-buoys. But even there it has been a most difficult matter to get delivery of these articles and also to find a place on board ship where they could be put.
My attention, therefore, was drawn to the matter, and I found that under the Merchant Shipping Act of 1894 it was necessary that such Rules as these should lie on the Table of both Houses of Parliament for forty days before coming into force. On the face of the Rules, above the signature of the President of the Board of Trade, is a statement that they are to come into force on March 1, 1913. The Rules were laid on the Table of the House of Commons on January l7, but were not laid on the Table of this House until January 21. Therefore by no manner of means could they be held as approved by this House before March 2; but by that date they had been removed from this House and were no longer on the Table because the Board of Trade enforced them on March 1. If I am to be told that it is admitted that the forty days had not expired on March 1 but that the Rules came into force on March 2, that will not answer me, nor is it the point.
The point is that the Rules had only lain on the Table here for thirty-nine days, and were then removed and put in force by the Board of Trade. It cannot be argued that the Rules were both lying on the Table here and in force at the same time. I therefore venture to say that the Rules are invalid, and must be laid afresh before the Houses of Parliament. I believe that their postponement would be a great advantage to their being satisfactorily carried out, because neither the shipowners nor the Board of Trade officials yet thoroughly understand what the Rules mean, and the greatest difficulty has been experienced in carrying them out. I do not profess to any special knowledge of the procedure of this House and I have no legal knowledge whatever; but whatever answer the Government may give, at all events it must be agreed that it is not treating this House with proper respect to put forward Rules to come into force on a day before they had lain for the prescribed period on the Table of the House, and I consider that this is a dangerous precedent if it is adopted. I beg to ask the Question standing in my name, and to move for Papers.
*THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, as regards the first part of what the noble Lord has said, the provisions in these Rules are, of course, provisions which the Board of Trade desire

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to have carried out conformably with the wishes of the shipowners and in accordance with the good feeling that exists between the shipowners and the Board of Trade. The shipowners have co-operated very loyally in this matter, and no serious differences of opinion have arisen. Considerable discretion is vested in the Board of Trade, and I have to say to the noble Lord that this discretion will be exercised in such a fashion as to make things easy.
I now come to the legal question which the noble Lord has raised. I do not think it is so formidable as it looks. Under Section 427 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, the Rules have to be laid on the Table of both Houses of Parliament and do not come into operation until they have so lain for forty days. On the face of the Rules was a direction by the President of the Board of Trade that they were to come into operation on March 1, and as the Rules were dated January 17 that would have been all right assuming that they had been laid on the Table of your Lordships' House on that date. Unfortunately, they were not laid on the Table of this House until January 21, the reason being, not that there was any negligence on the part of the officials of the Board of Trade, but that your Lordships had adjourned. The result was that the direction on the outside docket which was printed upon the Rules that they should come into operation on March 1 could not become operative until March 2. All that the section requires is that the Rules should lie on the Table for forty days before becoming operative. The only effect of the House not sitting was that the Rules did not become operative until March 2, notwithstanding the direction on the docket that they should become operative on March 1.
The noble Lord stated that the rules were removed from the Table of your Lordships' House on the thirty-ninth day. That is not so. Not only have the Rules lain on the Table for forty days, but they are lying there now, and the noble Lord can see them if he desires. It is a most uninviting document to any but experts. These Rules were printed in the other House and are available, but in your Lordships' House they have remained on the Table in the packet which was deposited here on January 21, the first day on which
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your Lordships were sitting. I think I have now disposed of the two technical questions, and I simply again say, in conclusion, that as regards the real substance of the noble Lord's point the Board of Trade are anxious to meet the shipowners in the same spirit in which the shipowners have met them.
LORD INVERCLYDE: I beg to withdraw my Motion for Papers.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I wish to ask the noble Marquess who leads the House whether he is in a position to make any statement as to the course of public business in this House during the next few weeks.
*THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, I understand that there is no business on the Paper, and so far as we are able to ascertain the desire of the House it would meet the general convenience if we adjourned to-day until the end of the month. It will be necessary for the House to meet for the purpose of passing the ordinary Appropriation measure before the end of the financial year—namely, on March 28. I therefore propose, with your Lordships' leave, to move the adjournment of the House till that day, when the Consolidated Fund Bill, which is of a purely formal character, can be passed through all its stages with a view to a Royal Commission being held on the same day. It probably may be for the convenience of your Lordships to meet soon after that, quite at the beginning of April, for the transaction of any business that may be before us. So far as Government business is concerned, I do not anticipate that at any rate in the early part of April there is likely to be any to occupy our attention, but I assume that after the formal meeting of the House on the 28th, the further adjournment will be quite a short one, and that we shall meet perhaps on April 1 or at any rate in the course of that week to see what business we may have before us.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to say that there is one very important portion of business which must be carried through before Easter. I refer to the Second Reading of Private Bills, numbering about fifty, many of which will be considered by Committees upstairs early in April. I understand that your Lordships will be sitting judicially next week, and I propose with your permission, to take the Second Reading of these Private Bills on one day then when the House is so sitting. I understand that that has been done before, and I hope the Leader of the House will have no objection to this course being adopted on this occasion.
*THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: In these circumstances the day should be named in the Motion for adjournment on which the business which has just been mentioned by the Lord Chairman is to be taken.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: I understand that the House will be sitting judicially on Monday next. That would be a convenient day for my purpose.
*THE MARQUESS or CREWE: Then I beg to move that the House do adjourn, except for Judicial business, until Monday next.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.