HL Deb 11 June 1913 vol 14 cc583-90

*LORD SANDERSON rose to ask His Majesty's Government—

1. What is the number of Orders, Rules, Provisional Regulations, and Regulations applicable to England which have been issued by the National Health Insurance Commission and other Public Departments under the provisions of Parts I and II respectively of the National Insurance Act, 1911, since the Act was passed.

2. Whether it can be stated how many of these have been altogether superseded by those subsequently issued, and how many remain wholly or partly in operation and have statutory force as part of the Act.

3. Whether the Orders, Rules, and Regulations applicable to Scotland, Wales, and Ireland are substantially identical with those in force in England, and whether the dates assigned to them are the same as or different from the latter.

4. Whether it will shortly be possible for the Insurance Commissioners and other Departments to issue codified sets of these enactments suitable for the use of the general public, and provided with an Index similar to that which has been compiled for the Act itself.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I ask permission to detain the House for a few minutes only while I explain my reasons for putting the Questions which stand in my name on the Paper. I wish to disclaim any suggestion that blame is to be imputed to the Health Insurance Commissioners because they have issued a large number of Regulations in a somewhat unsystematic manner. The Act required a complicated code, and the Government decided to put it in force in a manner which made it necessary to issue Regulations piecemeal as occasion arose. But the Act has now been in existence for eighteen months; it has been in force for eleven months, and it seems time that we should take stock and see where we are. There is a good deal of irritation on the subject, not at all due to Party faction, which might be removed by some clear declaration of what is intended.

I may, perhaps, be allowed to relate one or two of my own personal experiences. As chairman of the council of the Charity Organisation Society I have had to preside at a number of meetings and consultations of charitable societies affected by the Act. When any question as to the provisions of the Act itself was raised it was easy to refer to them by means of the Index which has been presented to Parliament. But if there were questions as to the wording of Regulations or Circulars nobody dreamed of attempting to refer to them on the spot. It was hopeless to burrow in a pile which one of the secretaries tells me is now about ten inches thick. The matter had to be left for subsequent research and study. In February last the secretary of a suburban Charity Organisation Committee, a very hard-working young lady, wrote to me and told me that she was constantly being brought face to face with problems arising out of Parts I and II of the Act, and she asked whether I could recommend to her any book which would enable her to get a knowledge of its provisions. As regards Part II there was little difficulty. There were a single Leaflet, two Pamphlets, and two sets of Regulations issued by the Board of Trade. But as regards Part I the case was very different. There was a "Handbook to the Administration of Sickness and Maternity Benefits by Approved Societies," a volume of eighty pages with a most inadequate table of contents but with useful side headings. There was an index to this handbook and to certain Circulars; it was not for sale but could be procured from the Insurance Commissioners on application by favoured people. I thought it better to ask an expert to advise me as to the books to he supplied to this young lady, and he recommended a set of books costing in all about 15s. This seems to me an excessive price to pay in order to be able to master this measure. The Insurance Commissioners have issued a list of their official publications extending over 12½ pages and containing about 150 items. But, of course, these are not all Regulations. A good many of them are other papers. On the other hand, the list does not by any means include all the Regulations.

One of my reasons for putting down the first three Questions is that Regulations for various parts of the United Kingdom have been poured upon us in such profusion that I think a good many of your Lordships have come to believe that they are like the sands of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude. Now the case is not so bad as that, and I thought it would be useful to know exactly what are the facts and what the work of codification entails. As regards the need for it I think there can be no doubt. I will trouble the House with only a few instances. I think that the Regulation which affects most of us is that respecting payment of contributions. There were Provisional Regulations issued on May 22 of last year, and I studied them carefully. On January 20 of this year definitive Regulations came, out. They were not the same as the Provisional Regulations, but there was nothing to show how they differed, and it necessitated a process of collation to find out what changes had been made. One thing became evident when you looked at the end of the Regulations. Form 6 had entirely disappeared. It had somehow been absorbed in Form 4. There was an additional Form 7a, but Form 6 had gone out altogether. That is a detail, but it is rather confusing to find that the forms go in number from 5 to 7.

There have been a number of Regulations issued as to subsidiary employments which do not necessitate insurance. Four of those were issued at different times last year, and it seemed that the tale was told; but in February of this year a fall of snow occurred, and it was found that people employed by local authorities to remove snow were not included in the Regulations, and therefore a fresh Provisional Regulation was issued. It consisted of a page and a-half of what I may call prelude, and the final four lines were the operative part of it. It cannot be doubted that it is most desirable that these Regulations should be codified. Quite recently Provisional Regulations were issued on outworkers, and they were of such a nature that I am sure if some noble and learned Lords had perused them they would have said something about their being the worst specimen they had seen of legislation by reference. I will read one passage— For the purposes of the principal Regulations notice given under paragraph (1) of Regulation 3 of the National Health Insurance (Outworkers) Regulations (England), 1912, shall be deemed to he a notice of entry duly given under paragraph (1) of Regulation 3 of the principal Regulations, and in die case of any such notice the proviso to paragraph (4),of Regulation 3 of the principal Regulations shall have effect as though the date of the commencement of the period of currency in which the notice took effect were substituted for the 13th day of January, 1913. I think it will be evident from this that the sooner codified sets of these enactments are issued the better.

The noble Earl who represents the Board of Trade in your Lordships' House called my attention to the fact that as regards Part II the Board of Trade have already codified the Regulations. They have done it in a manner which leaves nothing to be desired. All the parts where the first Regulations have been altered by the second set of Regulations are inserted in italics, and the whole is perfectly intelligible and clear. Part II of the Act has not been indexed, nor have these Regulations been indexed. But really Part II has nothing whatever to do with Part I, and I never understood why they were put together; and if the Board of Trade, which is a most business-like Department, thinks it unnecessary that the two parts should be classed together, and that an index to Part II is not required, I should be the first to accept their opinion. But as regards Part I the matter is different, and I cannot help feeling that in this matter the Government have a duty, first of all, to the great body of insured persons. The Government have forced 15,000,000 of His Majesty's subjects to come into this insurance scheme, and it surely is incumbent on them to see that these insured people get the advantages to which they arc entitled will the least amount of difficulty and delay. On the other hand, it has entered into partnership with the friendly societies. The officers of these societies are men of very little leisure, of no great technical education, but of immense goodwill, and it really is a public duty that these men should be as little as possible embarrassed by a series of confusing and technical Regulations, and that what they have to do should be made as clear as possible to them. I beg to ask the Questions which stand in my name.

THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD STRACHIE)

My Lords, I have nothing to complain of in the way in which the noble Lord has brought this subject before your Lordships' House. He is well qualified to do so, for we are all aware of his great experience in all matters of administration. The noble Lord himself said that he is not finding fault with the Insurance Commissioners, because he quite realises that they have had very heavy work laid upon them to bring into force as quickly as possible an Act which is very far-reaching indeed and which we are all aware from the necessities of the case is highly complicated, dealing as it does with a large number of people under varying conditions. As to the Act having caused irritation, I think that was unavoidable owing to the difficulties attending the bringing of this great measure into force. The noble Lord complained of the want of codification. I can assure him that the Insurance Commissioners are at present considering whether it is possible and desirable to codify the various Regulations.

LORD SANDERSON

I did not complain. I merely said that I hoped they were thinking about it and going to do it.

LORD STRACHIE

I quite recognise that the noble Lord threw no blame upon the Commissioners, who he recognised were doing their best. I will now give the noble Lord detailed answers to the four Questions which he has placed on the Paper. As regards Part II, as the noble Lord said, he has been in communication with my noble friend the Master of the Horse, who represents the Board of Trade in your Lordships' House. Unfortunately the noble Earl was unable at the last moment to come down to the House to-day, and he has asked me to read his answer, which I will do presently, as regards the question affecting Part II.

It will be convenient to take Questions 1 and 2 together. Under the provisions of Part I of the National Insurance Act 42 Provisional Regulations applicable to England have been made by the Joint Committee and the English Commission alone or jointly. Twenty-three of these remain in force, and 19 of them have been made substantive. Twenty-six Substantive Regulations (including the 19 above referred to) have been made by the Joint Committee and the English Commission alone or jointly. Thus 49 Regulations in all are in force. Five Substantive Regulations bearing on Part I of the Act have been made by other Departments—the Treasury, Inland Revenue, Board of Trade, and Local Government Board—one of them superseding a Provisional Regulation. The English Commission have made one set of Rules as to the conduct of Special Order inquiries. Two sets of Rules have also been made as to procedure in the County Courts under Sections 66 and 68 respectively. Eighteen Provisional Special Orders have been made, two of which are amended editions of Provisional Special Orders. Two Provisional Special Orders were superseded by Substantive Special Orders, three in all having, been issued. Under Section 78 154 Orders. have been made by the Joint Committee or the English Commission, including 129 Orders and further Orders in identical form (mutatis mutandis) with reference to the constitution of Provisional Insurance Committees. The Local Government Board have issued two Orders.

Then as regards Question 3, the Regulations, Orders, etc., applicable to Scotland, Ireland, and Wales in many cases are substantially identical with those applicable to England, but in some cases they differ owing to the circumstances of the different countries. The dates in most cases are not the same as those assigned to the English Regulations, Orders, etc., but as a rule they do not differ by any considerable period.

In Question 4 the noble Lord asks whether it will shortly be possible for the Insurance Commissioners and other Departments to issue codified sets of these enactments. A volume containing the Statutory Rules and Orders issued in connection with Part I of the National Insurance Act during 1912 has already been issued. This contains all the Orders, Tables, Rules, and Substantive Regulations with a note of all the Provisional Regulations (which are not technically Statutory Rules and Orders) which were still in force on December 31,1912. The question of consolidating and publishing the Regulations together when they have all become substantive is under consideration.

The answer, so far as Part II of the Act (Unemployment Insurance) is concerned, is as follows. Six sets of Regulations and two Special Orders have been made by the Board of Trade. In addition, two sets of Regulations have been made by the Treasury and two Orders in Council have been made for adapting the Regulations to workmen in the service of the Admiralty and the Army Council respectively. The Unemployment Insurance Regulations, 1912, have been amended by the Unemployment Insurance (Supplementary) Regulations, 1913, but subject to this all the Regulations and Orders referred to remain wholly in force and have statutory effect as part of the Act. All the Regulations and Orders are applicable to the whole of the United Kingdom. A publication has been prepared by the Board of Trade containing Parts II and III of the Act, with Schedules, an Explanatory Memorandum, and Statutory Regulations, Rules, and Orders in connection with unemployment insurance. This includes all the Regulations and Orders made by the Board of Trade; it is provided with a Table of Contents and is published by His Majesty's Stationery Office at the price of threepence.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

May I venture to suggest that the statement which has just been read to the House by the noble Lord might be conveniently presented to us in the form of a Paper. It was not easy for us to follow the figures, and I for one was quite unable to gather the grand total of this immense series of documents which have been laid before the public.

LORD STRACHIE

Certainly; His Majesty's Government will be only too glad to comply with the noble Marquess's request. The figures shall be circulated as a White Paper with the Minutes.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

The Master of the Horse must be one of the most gifted members of His Majesty's Government, because not only is he responsible for the Royal stables and for answering on behalf of the Admiralty in your Lordships' House, but he is also responsible for replying to Questions concerning the complications of the Insurance Act.

THE MARQUESS OF CREWE

For replying for the Board of Trade, but not for the Insurance Commissioners.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

I do not know which member of His Majesty's Government is responsible for answering for the Insurance Commissioners. But in such a Return as we have been promised I venture to think it would be of the greatest possible use if it could be made quite plain to the secretaries of approved societies, whose characteristics have been so admirably described by my noble friend Lord Sanderson, which of these Orders, Rules, and Regulations are no longer in force, so that they may weed the file which has accumulated. I know from personal experience that these secretaries are in some cases simply dazed—that is the only word which describes their situation—by the communications they have received from the Insurance Commissioners. They have taken great pains to master the general details of the Act, but they have quite given up endeavouring to follow the Regulations issued by the Insurance Commissioners. I do not for one moment wish to imply any criticism of the Commissioners any more than my noble friend does. We all know the extreme difficulty of the task which they have to fulfil. But the condition of these secretaries, as I think the noble Lord will know from his local experience, is in some cases almost deplorable.