HL Deb 29 July 1913 vol 14 cc1466-72

Amendments reported (according to Order).

EARL BATHURST

There are two or three Amendments standing in my name on the Paper which are of a purely drafting nature. The object of the first, which I now move, is to transpose Clause 4 from its present place in the Bill and to put it in as a subsection to Clause 1.

Amendment moved—

Page 2, line 12, after ("person") insert the following new subsection, viz.: (4) Where payment has been ordered td be made to the collecting officer, the person on whom the affiliation order has been made shall give to the collecting officer notice in writing immediately upon any change of his address or place of abode, and if he fails to do so without reasonable excuse he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding two pounds.—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2:

Attachment of salary or wages for purposes of affiliation orders.

2.—(1) When an affiliation order has been made, either before or after the commencement of this Act, the justices who made the order or any court of summary jurisdiction may either at the time of making the affiliation order or (after complaint made) at any subsequent time, make an order (in this Act referred to as an "affiliation attachment order") which shall have effect to charge to such an amount each week as is specified in the order any salary, wages, or other remuneration which at any time while the affiliation attachment order remains in force become due and payable by or from any employer on whom notice of such order is served to the person on whom the affiliation order is made: Provided that no such attachment order shall be made or be binding upon the employer in the case of any employee whose terms of service permit of termination upon less than one week's notice.

(2) An affiliation attachment order shall not have any effect as against an employer unless or until notice thereof is served upon him in accordance with rules of court.

(3) An employer upon whom notice of an affiliation attachment order has been served shall so often as any moneys become payable by him by way of salary or wages to the person on whom the affiliation order was made, deduct from such moneys a sum sufficient to satisfy the charge thereon, together with the cost of duly forwarding the amount by registered post, and shall forthwith pay the amount so deducted by sending it to the collecting officer or other person specified in the affiliation attachment order, and every sum so deducted and paid shall be taken to the extent thereof to have been paid by the employer in satisfaction of the wages or salary payable by him to the person on whom the affiliation order is made: Provided that the obligation of the employer hereunder shall not extend to any arrears due under the affiliation order but shall be limited to the amount falling due thereunder week by week.

(4) If, after he has been duly served with notice of an affiliation attachment order, an employer makes any payment by way of salary or wages to the person on whom the affiliation order has been made and fails to make any payment required by the affiliation attachment order, the amount in default shall be recoverable summarily by the person to whom the amount is payable under the affiliation attachment order as a civil debt due to that person from the employer.

(5) An affiliation attachment order may at any time be varied, suspended, or cancelled by a court of summary jurisdiction, and every such variation, suspension, or cancellation shall take effect on notice thereof being served upon the employer in accordance with rules of court; but an employer upon whom notice of an affiliation attachment order has been served shall not, in making any deduction or payment required by the order, be concerned to inquire whether any moneys are due under the affiliation order or the affiliation attachment order, and shall not, except as aforesaid, be affected by any notice to the contrary. The employer shall be entitled to receive reasonable notice of all proceedings hereunder, and, if he think fit, to appear thereat.

(6) The charge created by an affiliation attachment order shall have priority to any assignment made or charge created by the person on whom the affiliation order was made, whether made or created before the affiliation order, and an affiliation attachment order shall have effect as if no such assignment or charge had been made or created.

(7) This section shall have effect notwithstanding anything contained in the Wages Attachment Abolition Act, 1870, or the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, but nothing in this section shall apply to any soldier of the regular forces so long as he is subject to the provisions of section one hundred and forty-five of the Army Act, 1881.

LORD GORELL moved to omit from the earlier part of subsection (1) the words "either at the time of making the affiliation order or (after complaint made) at any subsequent time," and to insert in their place the words "after complaint made and on proof that default has been made in payment of any sum due under the affiliation order."

The noble Lord said: The Amendment standing in my name raises a question which was discussed somewhat fully in Committee, and received the support, I think the hearty support, of both the noble Earl in charge of the Bill and the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury. It was postponed for consideration to this stage on the understanding that Lord Strachie, as representing the Home Office, would further consider the desirability of insetting these words. I now venture to ask him to accept the Amendment. The Bill as it stands gives to the justices very drastic powers, and the Amendment. which I suggest would to some extent mitigate the extreme nature of the clause and remove from the justices this large discretion Under my Amendment the proposal in the clause would only operate after there had been default in payment.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 27, leave out from ("may") to ("make") in line 29, and insert ("after complaint made and on proof that default has been made in payment of any sum due under the affiliation order.").—(Lord Gorell.)

LORD STRACHIE

The noble Lord has again endeavoured to convince me of the desirability of limiting the discretion of the justices in this matter. I must plead guilt to considering that in the great majority of cases of this kind the justices are the proper people to have discretion. I cannot understand why the noble Lord is so much afraid of our country justices in this matter, and I shall be surprised if the House is of the same opinion as the noble Lord. This is not a case where you are dealing with a man who ought to have special care taken about him. I had always thought that the object of the noble Earl in introducing this Bill was to do something to secure the better protection of the woman. Lord Gorell's Amendment would have the effect of minimising that, and of giving less protection to the woman, because undoubtedly the sort of man who leaves the woman in this position is very likely to cause default. Why should not the justices have power, if they think fit, before default is made to say that an attachment order should be made to secure the woman in the matter? Personally I feel rather strongly about this question but if your Lordships think it undesirable to give the justices this discretion it is for you to say so.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

The desire of my noble friend on the Cross Benches is to make the Bill as effective as he can. The object of the Amendment is to steer the middle course between the interest of the woman in obtaining the money and the interest of the woman in not throwing the man out of work, because that is the interest of the woman too. It is that difficult line which he desires your Lordships to draw. I agree with him in thinking that this would be a sounder piece of legislation if the Amendment were inserted. At the same time I suggest to the noble Lord that he should not press the Amendment, though I think his view would probably command the support of a majority of your Lordships. But a Bill of this kind is not likely to pass—certainly it will not, pass in the present year, but it is not likely to pass even in the future—except with the co-operation of the responsible Department of Government having jurisdiction in matters of this sort. Unless, therefore, you can in matters of detail get the Home Office cordially upon your side, I do not think it is likely that the Pill will pass into law in the near future For that reason it has been my desire all through the discussions on this Bill to carry the noble Lord opposite with us in our proceedings; and it is for that reason, and for that reason alone, that I think my noble friend Lord Gorell would be wise not to press the Amendment, though I agree with him in regard to the substance of it.

On Question, Amendment negatived.

EARL BATHURST

The next Amendment is a purely drafting one.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 34, after ("due") insert ("from"), and leave out ("or from").—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD STRACHIE

I have an Amendment in subsection (3) of this clause which I promised to bring up on Report to carry out the views that I suggested when we were discussing this Bill in Committee. I then expressed the opinion that it was desirable to give a certain amount of latitude and discretion to the employer under this drastic clause, which empowers the justices, if they think fit, to make an attachment on a man's wages, and also gives the Court power to order the employer to make payments directly to the Court itself. It has been suggested to me that it is likely that in some cases an employer might object to the trouble of having to send these deducted weekly payments by registered letter to the officer of the Court. Therefore the Amendment which I have put on the Paper gives an option to the employer, if he thinks fit, not to forward the money to an officer of the Court by registered letter, but to pay it to any other authorised person. It might be more convenient for the employer to pay it to the probation officer, or to the superintendent of police, or in some cases he might prefer that a police constable should call every week and collect the money. It is not only large employers who are concerned. We have to consider small employers of labour in the country, to whom it would be a great trouble to have to send this money by registered letter weekly; while, on the other hand, the small employers might prefer that some one else, even the woman herself, might call at his place of business. I confess I do not feel very strongly on this Amendment, but I think it is desirable to give the employer the power proposed in my Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 3, lines 8 and 9, leave out ("or other person specified in the affiliation attachment order") and insert ("or, if he think fit, to the person who is entitled under the affiliation order to receive payment").—(Lord Strachie.)

EARL BATRURST

I do not care for this Amendment as it stands, and I do not quite like the words "if the employer thinks fit." I think it would he far better to leave it to the discretion of the magistrates, and not to the discretion of the employer who has to pay over the money. In my opinion the Bill reads better as it is—that the amount so deducted should be sent to the collecting officer or other person specified in the affiliation attachment order. It would be very much better if the Bill were allowed to stand as it is, or even if the noble Lord would not insert the words he proposes to insert but only strike out the words which he proposes to delete.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I do not know whether, after what the noble Earl has said, the noble Lord opposite would care to persist in his Amendment. I understood him to say that he did not attach very much importance to it. If that is the case, it would be better as my noble friend in charge of the Bill does not like the Amendment not to insert it.

LORD STRACHIE

If the noble Marquess supports the view of the noble Earl in charge of the Bill I will withdraw the Amendment. I only moved it in the interests of employers.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBLTRY

I do not wish to express ally confident opinion upon it. But at this particular stage I would be glad if the noble Lord would not persist in his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

EARL BATHURST

The next is a drafting Amendment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 11, leave out ("wages or salary") and insert ("salary, wages or other remuneration").—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL BATHURST

The next Amendment is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 18, leave out ("or"), and after ("wages") insert ("or other remuneration").—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3:

Attachment of pension or income.

3. When an affiliation order has been made, either before or after the commencement of this Act, the justices who made the order or any court of summary jurisdiction may, in any case where there is any pension or income payable to the person on whom the affiliation order has been made and capable of being attached, after giving the person to whom the pension or income is payable an opportunity of being heard, order that such an amount each week as is specified in the affiliation order or any part of such amount be attached and be paid to the person named by the court. Such order shall be an authority to the person by whom such pension or income is payable to make the payment so ordered, and the receipt of the person to whom the payment is ordered to be made shall be a good discharge to such first named person.

EARL BATHURST

The Amendment standing in my name to Clause 3 is a purely drafting one, very much like the former ones to which your Lordships have already agreed.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 10, after ("income") insert ("not being salary, wages, or other remuneration within the meaning of the immediately preceding section").—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD GORELL

The new subsection which I beg to move, provides useful machinery for working the provisions of Clause 3, and follows the lines indicated for the recovery of sums due under the affiliation attachment order.

Amendment moved—

Page 4, line 20, after ("person") insert the following new subsection, viz.: (2) If the person by whom the pension or income is payable after being duly ordered to pay the whole or any part thereof to a person named by the Court, at any time fails to pay the amount so ordered or any part thereof to the person named by the Court, the amount in default shall be recoverable summarily by the person to whom the amount is payable under the order of the Court as a civil debt from the person by whom the pension or income is payable: Provided always that the person by whom the pension or income is payable shall not be liable to pay more than the amount of the said pension or income."—(Lord Gorell.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Notice of change of address.

4. The person on whom an affiliation order has been made shall give notice of any change of address to the collecting officer, if payment has been ordered to be made by him, and, if he fads to do so without reasonable excuse, he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding two pounds.

EARL BATHURST

I move to leave out Clause 4, which is now unnecessary as it has already been inserted as a subsection in Clause 1.

Amendment moved— Page 1, lines 21 to 25, leave out Clause 4.—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Bill to be read 3a To-morrow, and to be printed as amended. (No. 142.)