HL Deb 16 July 1913 vol 14 cc1037-54

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Appointment and duties of collecting officer in respect of affiliation orders.

1.—(1) There shall be appointed to each petty sessional Court for the purposes of this Act an officer of the Court who shall carry out the duties of the collecting officer under this Act.

(2) Where the justices make an affiliation order all payments thereunder shall be made to the collecting officer of the Court, and it shall be the duty of the collecting officer to receive all such payments as may be directed to be made to him under this Act and to pay forthwith to the mother of the bastard child, or to such other person as is named in the affiliation order, the sum directed to be paid under the order, or such part thereof as he receives, without making any deduction therefrom, and, where any such payment or any part thereof is in arrear for seven days, the collecting officer shall give notice in writing to the person who is entitled under the affiliation order to receive that payment, stating the particulars of the arrears. Nothing in this Act shall affect the right of the mother or other person entitled to recover payments under the affiliation order to proceed against the putative father of the child to enforce payment of any sum due to such person, but, on the request in writing of the mother or other person entitled to recover payments under the affiliation order, it shall be lawful for the collecting officer to proceed in the name and on behalf of the mother or such other person against the putative father for the recovery of payments under the affiliation order, and in any such ease the liability of the person in whose name the proceedings are taken for all costs properly incurred in or about the proceedings shall be the same as if the proceedings had been taken by that person.

THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD STRACHIE)

moved to omit from the beginning of subsection (2) the words "the justices make an affiliation order all payments thereunder," and to insert the words in his Amendment. The noble Lord said: The object of the Amendment which I now move is to snake this Bill retrospective, so that the justices may, if they think fit, give the benefits of this provision to the woman although the order has been made before this Bill actually became law. I think that to a very large extent this meets the Amendment which appears later on the Paper in the name of Lord Gorell, as it gives discretionary power to the magistrates. I would also suggest to the noble Earl in charge of the Bill that my Amendment carries out what he apparently desires to do at the end of Clause 1, where he wishes to insert a new subsection.

Amendment moved—— Page 1, line 9, leave out from ("Where") to ("shall") in line 10, and insert ("an affiliation order has been made either before or after the commencement of this Act, the Court which made the order, or any other Court of summary jurisdiction acting for the same place, may, if it thinks fit, direct that all payments becoming due under the affiliation order").—(Lord Strachie.)

EARL BATHURST

As far as the retrospective part of the Amendment is concerned, I fully approve of it, but so far as the rest of the Amendment goes I am afraid I cannot agree with Lord Strachie, for reasons which I will explain. In the first place, the Bill as it stands requires that all payments under affiliation orders shall be made through the collecting officer. Under this Amendment the payments would be made to the mother direct unless the justices thought fit to order otherwise. The promoters of this Bill take the other line, and say that all payments under affiliation orders should be made through a third person. They have very good reasons for taking that view. Their experience tells them that it is right, and they would much prefer that the Bill should stand as it is without amendment on that point. But I have taken a different view, and with your Lordships' permission I will explain the Amendment which stands next on the Paper in my name, and to which Lord Strachie referred. It directs that all payments under affiliation orders shall be made to the collecting officer "unless upon representations expressly made by the applicant." I further strengthen that by saying later on that, supposing representation is made that the woman would like the money paid direct to her, the magistrates shall have the option of saying No, and of ordering that the money must be paid through the collecting officer. I have several instances which prove that that would be a very good thing. A lady who has taken an active part in the drawing up of this Bill thinks that if an option were given to women of saying whether the money should be paid direct to them or through a third person, they would very likely be rushed into saying that they would have the money paid to them direct, and the real good of the Bill would be done away with. I do not know whether the noble Lord opposite takes a very strict view of this, or whether he will give way to my Amendment. I hope he will, as it gives latitude both to the magistrates and to the mothers.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I venture to hope that the noble Lord who represents the Home Office will consider my noble friend's suggestion. He will see that my noble friend has not shown himself at all insensible to the kind of considerations which governed the noble Lord the Paymaster-General in the observations which he made. My noble friend recognises that the clause as it is drawn is a little over-rigid, because no discretion whatever is allowed. The magistrates are directed in the clause to order payment, through the collecting officer or other person appointed, but in every case other than to the woman herself. My noble friend recognises that, that is going a little too far, although it is the form in which the Bill has been drafted by those interested in this subject who have made a special study of the way in which the law works in this difficult matter. Lord Bathurst is willing, however, to make a concession, and I think a considerable concession, because he allows representations on behalf of the woman to be made to the magistrates, and if the magistrates are satisfied that on the whole it is better that the payment should be made to the woman direct, the Court may make an award accordingly. That appears to be a very fair compromise between two positions, and I hope the noble Lord opposite will consent to it.

I am very nervous, indeed, of allowing complete discretion to the Court. This, after all, is a new procedure and magistrates are not really acquainted with the intention of Parliament in this matter. They probably have not realised the enormous importance of relieving the woman of the necessity of appearing time after time before the Court to enforce the payment of the money. That is the policy of the Bill. The thing is to make it as easy as possible for the woman as against the man, and to secure that the woman should not be placed at a disadvantage in the matter. Therefore we say that it is better that the payments should be made through an officer of the Court than that the woman should be forced to come to the Court to claim the money. Experience has shown this to be ineffective. She very often refrains from going to the Court partly through shame, partly through the difficulties put in her way, partly through the question of expense and the terrors which beset the ordinary lay person at approaching a Court of justice. For all these reasons we think that Parliament should give a direction that in the ordinary case the money should be paid through an officer of the Court, although an exception should be permitted when it can be shown that it would be better that the money should be paid to the woman direct. My noble friend Lord Bathurst thinks he has gone a good way towards meeting the argument of the noble Lord the Paymaster-General, and we hope that the Government will not insist on their Amendment, at any rate that they will not insist upon it at this stage, but allow my noble friend to amend the Bill as he wishes and reconsider the matter on Report.

LORD STRACHIE

The noble Earl's Amendment only appeared on the Paper this morning, and up till now I have not had an opportunity of consulting the Home Office with regard to it, nor have I had any communication from them. Therefore I do not like to pledge myself as to any revision of the Amendment standing in my name. I admit, however, that there is great force in what the noble Marquess and Lord Bathurst have said, and that Lord Bathurst has accepted in his Amendment a good deal of what I propose. I think it will be best for me to assent to the noble Earl's Amendment on the distinct understanding that if I am advised that it is undesirable or requires further amendment, we shall deal with it on Report.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

EARL BATHURST then formally moved the Amendment standing in his name, to which reference had been made in the discussion of Lord Strachie's Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 9, after ("order") insert ("they shall, unless upon representations expressly made in that behalf by the applicant for the affiliation order they are satisfied it is undesirable so to do, provide in the order that").—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL BATHURST

The next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 10, after ("Court") insert ("and if the Justices so provide all payments under the order shall be made to the collecting officer and not otherwise").—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 11, leave out ("and") and insert ("(3)").—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL BATHURST

I move the next Amendment standing in my name.

Amendment moved—

Page 2, line 8, after ("person") insert the following new subsections: (4) Where an affiliation order has been made before the commencement of this Act, a court of summary jurisdiction may, if it thinks fit, direct that all payments becoming due under such order shall be made to the collecting officer and where the Court directs the payment to be so made, the provisions of this section shall apply as if the affiliation order had been made after the commencement of this Act. (5) A provision in an affiliation order under this section with respect to the person to whom the payments tinder the affiliation order are to be made may at any time be varied by a Court of summary jurisdiction if good cause is shown by the person on whose application the affiliation order was made."—(Earl Bathurst.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

The first subsection of this Amendment carries out the other half of Lord Strachie's Amendment which he agreed to withdraw. The second subsection is rather a different point. It is to give power to the Court to vary the order hereafter.

LORD STRACHIE

I have no objection to this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2:

Attachment of salary or wages for purposes of affiliation orders.

2.—(1) When an affiliation order has been made, either before or after the commencement of this Act, the justices who made the order or any Court of summary jurisdiction may either, at the time of making the affiliation order or (after complaint made) at any subsequent time, make an order (in this Act referred to as an "affiliation attachment order") which shall have effect to charge to such an amount each week as is specified in the order any salary, wages, or other remuneration which at any time while the affiliation attachment order remains in force become due and payable by or front any employer on whom notice of such order is served to the person on whom the affiliation order is made: Provided that no such attachment order shall be made or be binding upon the employer in the case of any employee whose terms of service permit of termination upon less than one week's notice.

(2) An affiliation attachment order shall not have any effect as against an employer unless or until notice thereof is served upon him in accordance with rules of Court.

(3) An employer upon whom notice of an affiliation attachment order has been served shall, so often as any moneys become payable by him by way of salary or wages to the person on whom the affiliation order was made, deduct from such moneys a sum sufficient to satisfy the charge thereon, together with the cost of duly forwarding the amount by registered post, and shall forthwith pay the amount so deducted by sending it to the collecting officer or other person specified in the affiliation attachment order, and every sum so deducted and paid shall be taken to the extent thereof to have been paid by the employer in satisfaction of the wages or salary payable by him to the person on whom the affiliation order is made: Provided that the obligation of the employer hereunder shall not extend to any arrears due under the affiliation order but shall be limited to the amount falling due thereunder week by week.

(4) If, after he has been duly served with notice of an affiliation attachment order, an employer makes any payment by way of salary or wages to the person on whom the affiliation order has been made and fails to make any payment required by the affiliation attachment order, the amount in default shall be recoverable summarily by the person to whom the amount is payable under the affiliation attachment order as a civil debt due to that person from the employer.

(5) An affiliation attachment order may at any time be varied, suspended, or cancelled by a court of summary jurisdiction, and every such variation, suspension, or cancellation shall take effect on notice thereof being served upon the employer in accordance with rules of court; but an employer upon whom notice of an affiliation attachment order has been served shall not, in making any deduction or payment required by the order, be concerned to inquire whether any moneys are due under the affiliation order or the affiliation attachment order, and shall not, except as aforesaid, be affected by any notice to the contrary. The employer shall be entitled to receive reasonable notice of all proceedings hereunder, and, if he thinks fit, to appear thereat.

(6) The charge created by an affiliation attachment order shall have priority to any assignment made or charge created by the person on whom the affiliation order was made, whether made or created before the affiliation order, and an affiliation attachment order shall have effect as if no such assignment or charge had been made or created.

(7) This section shall have effect notwithstanding anything contained in the Wages Attachment Abolition Act, 1870, or the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, but nothing in this section shall apply to any soldier of the regular forces so long as he is subject to the provisions of section one hundred and forty-five of the Army Act, 1881.

(8) The power given to the Lord Chancellor to make rules of Court under the Summary Jurisdiction Acts shall include a power to make rules for the purpose of carrying this section into effect amt for dealing with costs.

LORD GORELL

I understand that the noble Earl who has introduced this Bill is prepared to accept this Amendment. It is to omit front the earlier part of subsection (1) the words "either at the time of making the affiliation order or," my object being to provide that the procedure under Clause 2 shall only take effect after there has been default in payment. I beg to move.

Amendment moved— Page 2, lines 11 and 12, leave out ("either at the time of making the affiliation order or").—(Lord Gorll.)

EARL BATHURST

I gladly accept the Amendment.

LORD STRACHIE

I must say that I look with doubt upon this Amendment. It seems to me very undesirable to put this restriction on the Court. It would be very much better to leave a discretionary power, as in the Bill.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

It is proposed in this clause to attach the wages of the father in payment of the sum due, but it is contended that if an application is made to the employer direct the first result will be that the man will lose his employment. I am not sure that that is necessarily a conclusive objection, because the man has had full notice and ought not to have forced the necessity upon the parties to approach the employer. But still it is so necessary and so important to avoid the man losing his employment that it is thought that we might give him one opportunity more. In the first case let the order be made against him only, and then if he makes default let us go to the employer and ask that the sum should be sent out of the wages direct. In that way the man would be given one more chance, and it would be necessary for him to make one default before it was essential to seize the employer of the situation. It is thought that that would mitigate the severity of the Bill and make it work all the better. I think the Amendment is a wise one and ought to be inserted.

LORD STRACHIE

I am surprised that the noble Marquess takes this view. I should have thought that in the opinion of the noble Marquess the man ought to be treated severely. What we have to consider is what is best for the woman in the circumstances. The justices are very particular, and although they have not power to make attachment orders in these particular cases at present, they have power to make them in cases of separation orders. They exercise their discretion in those cases, often very usefully. In nine cases tout of tell the locality knows all about the making of an affiliation order. Through the mere fact of its being discussed in (Ten Court and reported in the local newspapers the employer would be perfectly aware that the man had rendered himself liable, and the man would not be prejudiced by the provision in the clause as it stands. The only objection that I can see is that it might have the effect of his losing his employment, because the employer was not willing to assist the girl and the Court by deducting the sum from the wages. I should object, as the noble Marquess objects, to the attachment order being made compulsory, but it is not compulsory. It is entirely in the discretion of the magistrates, who would know all about the matter and whether the case was one in which an order for attachment should be made. I am very much surprised at the noble Marquess not being willing to trust the magistrates. They know all the circumstances and are the best judges in the matter. I certainly must resist the Amendment as far as I can.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I do not know what my noble friend Lord Gorell feels inclined to do, but I certainly should not suggest to him to press the Amendment in the face of the opposition of His Majesty's Government. At the same time I think it would have been better for them to have accepted the Amendment. Perhaps the noble Lord the Paymaster-General will consider between this and the next stage whether some modification ought not to be made.

LORD GORELL

I accept the advice which the noble Marquess gives me, and will not press the Amendment in face of the attitude adopted by the noble Lord who represents the Home Office. But I venture to him, before I withdraw the Amendment, whether he will not allow the Amendment to be inserted now and be reconsidered at a later stage. It is, I think, desirable, particularly if the clause stands as it is at present drafted, that the employee should be given a chance of duly discharging his obligations under the affiliation order before the woman can go to the Court with the very strong power provided in the latter part of the clause.

LORD STRACHIE

I hope the noble Lord will be inclined to accept the advice of the noble Marquess and withdraw the Amendment. On my part I will undertake to carefully reconsider this question.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD STRACHIE moved to deletes from subsection (3) the words "or other person specified in the affiliation attachment order." The noble Lord said: By the striking out of these words the employer will have to pay the amount only to the collecting officer. It seems to me that this is only fair, and it relieves the employer from finding out the whereabouts of the other person entitled to payment and gets rid of the difficulty which the employer might experience in getting a receipt from such person. We ought to do everything to make it as easy as possible for the employer. Very naturally he would say he could not pay the money to Tom, Dick, or Harry, but only to an officer of the Court who would give him an official receipt.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 34, leave out from ("officer") to ("and") in line 35.—(Lord Strachie.)

EARL BATHURST

I hope the noble Lord will not press this Amendment. Clause 1 indicates that certain payments under affiliation orders should be made to some person other than the collecting officer—either to the mother of the child or the guardians of the union.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I quite appreciate the noble Lord's point, that the employer might experience some difficulty in knowing where to send the money if some person other than the collecting officer were named. But under the Amendment we have inserted it is possible that the money may be ordered to be paid to the woman herself or to the guardians. It is necessary to provide, if the wages are attached, that they should also be paid to the woman herself.

LORD STRACHIE

That is a different point.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

No. The words are "pay the amount so deducted by sending it to the collecting officer or other person specified in the affiliation attachment order." If the money is due to the woman herself or to the board of guardians, the amount deducted from the wages must also be due to those same persons and some such words are necessary. If the noble Lord thinks that some provision is required in the Bill in order that the employer may know exactly to whom to send the money—something prescribing that a proper name and address should be sent to the employer—perhaps he will consider that and bring up words to meet the point. Otherwise I think we must leave the words as they are here, for the clause would not make sense without them.

LORD STRACHIE

When I expressed dissent, it was because this is a new provision here. Of course, under the present law the Court has power to make an order that the money shall be paid to some other person having the custody of the child, and not be paid to the woman. This is an alteration of the law completely, giving the justices the power of attachment of the wages. What we were dealing with before was regards giving them a discretion as to whether it should be paid to the collecting officer; and it seems to me you must be more particular when you are making an order on an employer than in the other case that has just been dealt with. However, if the noble Marquess presses it I shall be willing to withdraw the Amendment on the understanding that I shall bring up words later to make it quite clear that the employer shall not be compelled to pay the money, unless he assents to do so, to any one except to an officer of the Court. I do not think it would be fair to put upon the employer an obligation to pay to any other person unless he is willing that the money should be paid in that way.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I think the point is perfectly simple. The Court orders the money to be paid, and according to the circumstances of the case it orders it to be paid to the woman herself. That happens under Clause 1 as amended. Then assume that the man becomes a defaulter and pays nothing. The Court proceeds then to say "We will attach his wages." An officer of the Court is not appointed in this case to collect the money, because it is to be sent to the woman herself. How can you possibly say that the wages shall be attached and the money sent to the collecting officer? He would not have anything to do with it, because the money is ordered to be paid to the woman direct. Therefore the attached wages must be sent to her direct. I think the noble Lord will agree that some such words are required.

LORD STRACHIE

I do not agree with the noble Marquess, but I think it would be best for me not to press my Amendment now but to reserve my right to bring up other words at a later stage to make it clear.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

LORD GORELL

I move to leave out subsection (2), and to insert as a separate subsection: "An affiliation attachment order shall only operate in the case of such employer as comes within the provisions of rules of Court (hereinafter called a responsible employer) and upon whom notice of the said affiliation attachment order shall have been duly served."

On Second Reading I think I satisfied both the noble Marquess and the noble Lord who was then representing the Home Office that the effect of this clause, as drafted, would undoubtedly be to jeopardise very seriously the employment of the workmen, but whilst both noble Lords accepted that position it seemed that they were pre- pared, nevertheless, to proceed with the provisions of the clause. But I venture to suggest that the effect of this clause, if the man does lose his employment, will defeat its own object, because at the present time it is extremely easy for a workman who has a payment such as this to make, particularly if he loses his employment, to go off to Canada or some other of our Dominions, or to the United States. I think that the analogy given by the noble Marquess of the person in the Army is not really a good one, because the soldier cannot get away; he is under military law; nor do I expect that a commanding officer would wish to get rid of him. Would a clause such as that in the Bill really be compulsory? Would it not be optional, as much as under the provision which I venture to suggest could be drawn up under the power to make rules of Court? The effect of the clause, as it stands at present, will be that the employer, although you say you are going to compel him, will really have the option of deciding whether he is going to assist you or not. No one can say to an employer, "You shall not get rid of your workman." Therefore what it really comes to is that the employer, if you approach him properly, may help you, but if you compel him he probably will not and I urge your Lordships very seriously to consider whether the clause as it stands at present will not defeat its own objects, because—as the noble Marquess said on the Second Reading of this Bill—upon the continuity of employment depends the possibility of the workman paying the sum due. I suggest that it would be better to face the tree facts, that the power really rests with the employer. I hope your Lordships will not misunderstand me. My sympathies are not for the man. I am quite in accord with the objects of the noble Earl who introduced this Bill and of the noble Marquess, but I am merely differing from them as to the means, and I suggest for your Lordships' consideration whether the means I propose will not prove more effective than those of the noble Earl.

Amendment moved—

Page 2, lines 24 to 26, leave out subsection (2) and insert as a separate subsection: ( ) An affiliation attachment order shall only operate in the case of such employer as comes within the provisions of rules of Court (hereinafter called a responsible employer) and upon whom notice of the said affiliation attachment order shall have been duly served."—(Lord Gorell.)

EARL BATHURST

I am afraid I cannot quite agree with the Amendment which has just been moved. It appears rather that its object is to prevent an attachment order being made effective. Under it an attachment order would be practically useless. The real object of the clause is to make men feel that if they do not make the payments under the affiliation orders their employer will have to do so for them out of their wages. I hope the noble Lord will not insist on his Amendment.

LORD STRACHIE

I entirely agree with the noble Earl. It would not be an advantage to the woman if your Lordships were to adopt the Amendment.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

Both the noble Earl in charge of the Bill and the noble Lord who represents the Home Office agree that this Amendment should not be inserted, and I confess I am of the same opinion. I think it would make it too easy for the man to get out of his liability. The employer would, in an enormous number of cases, probably decline to have anything to do with it, and we should defeat the objects of the Bill. I also think that the extraordinary vagueness of the noble Lord's Amendment is a great objection to it. We practically hand over all the conditions under which this very important matter has to be carried out to rules. There is no indication, on the face of the Amendment, what the rules are to be, and what sort of considerations are to be had regard to by those responsible for making the rules. I think on all these grounds the Amendment ought not to be accepted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment moved—

Page 3, lines 33 to 36, leave out subsection (8).—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

LORD GORELL

I beg to move the first of the proposed two new clauses standing in my name. It fills up, if I may say so, a gap in the provisions of the Bill by enabling pensions to be attachable. I think this is a useful provision, and it is substantially the same as the provision in the Children's Act.

Amendment moved— After Clause 2, to insert the following new clause, viz.: .When an affiliation order has been made, either before or after the commencement of this Act, the justices who made the order or any Court of summary jurisdiction may, in any case where there is any pension or income payable to the person on whom the affiliation order has been made and capable of being attached, after giving the person to whom the pension or income is payable an opportunity of being heard, order that such an amount each week as is specified in the affiliation order or any part of such amount be attached and be paid to the person named by the Court. Such order shall be an authority to the person by whom such pension or income is payable to make the payment so ordered, and the receipt of the person to whom the payment is ordered to be made shall be a good discharge to such first named person."—(Lord Gorell.)

EARL BATHURST

I shall be glad to accept this Amendment. I think the clause will require a little alteration in the expression of the income which is capable of being attached, but otherwise I accept it.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD GORELL

I now move the insertion of the second new clause standing in my name. This clause is also similar to one contained in the Children's Act, and I venture to think that it will prove a useful clause in dealing with what is frequently found to be a matter of great difficulty—the tracing of the movements of persons on whom orders have been made in their change of address from one part of the Kingdom to another.

Amendment moved— Insert the following new clause, viz.: ".The person on whom an affiliation order has been made shall give notice of any change of address to the collecting officer, if payment has been ordered to be made to him, and if he fails to do so without reasonable excuse he shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding two pounds."—(Lord Gorell.) *EARL BATHURST: I accept this Amendment also. I should like to say, with regard to this clause, that it would be much better to put it as a new subsection to Clause 1. If that is acceptable to the Committee, that may perhaps be proposed at another stage.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3 agreed to.

Clause 4:

New or altered form of proceedings.

4. The Local Government Board may issue such new or altered forms of proceedings in matters of bastardy as they shall deem necessary or expedient for giving effect to the existing Acts relating to such proceedings as amended by this Act.

Amendment moved—

Page 4, line 8, after ("Act") insert the following new subsection: (2) The power given to the Lord Chancellor to make rules of Court under the Summary Jurisdiction Acts shall include a power to make rules for the purpose of carrying this Act into effect and for dealing with costs, fees, and expenses."—(Earl Bathurst.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5:

Definitions.

5. In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires, the expression "affiliation order" means an order made under the Bastardy Laws Amendment Act, 1872, or any Act amending the same, adjudging a man to be the putative father of a bastard child and ordering him to pay a sum of money weekly or otherwise to the mother of the bastard child or to any other person who is named in the circler.

LORD GORELL

The object of my Amendment to this clause is to provide for a definition of the person who will have to work the machinery, to a large extent, of this Bill. It is really a matter on which one would feel disposed to accept the advice of the noble Lord who represents the Home Office; but I venture to suggest that the persons I have indicated in my Amendment would be extremely useful persons. Probation officers have done very valuable work of this kind, and have been entrusted with extremely important duties. There is this great advantage, that women can be appointed probation officers, and I venture to think they would be extremely useful persons in this capacity. The Police Court missionaries are in daily attendance at the Courts, and are constantly following up this class of person in other ways, and I venture to suggest that their inclusion would be a wise provision.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 13, after ("order") insert ("and the expression 'officer of the Court' shall mean a superintendent or inspector of police or other officer of police of equal or superior rank, or in charge of any police station, or a probation officer or police court missionary").—(Lord Gorell.)

LORD STRACHIE

The view of the Home Office is that it is very much better to leave this matter entirely in the discretion of the magistrates, because they themselves will be able to say whether it is desirable that the Police Court missionary, or the probation officer, or a constable, or the superintendent. should be appointed. They are the best judges. In some cases it might be better to have the superintendent or the probation officer. I sympathise with the noble Lord when he says that it is desirable that women should act sometimes in particular cases, but my feeling is—and I know it is the feeling of the Home Office—that we should not interfere with the discretion of the magistrates in this matter. I hope the noble Earl in charge of the Bill will have the same feeling and resist the Amendment, which rather goes against the principle of the Bill.

EARL BATHURST

Personally I should rather have welcomed this Amendment, because I think it gives the justices great latitude; but after what the noble Lord who represents the Home Office has said, if it is really quite clear that the magistrates have power to appoint either a superintendent or a police sergeant or constable, or anybody else whom they choose, possibly the noble Lord who moved the Amendment will not insist upon it. But I rather understood that the view of the Home Office was that a policeman should not be appointed. I think that if someone carrying official power and in an official uniform were to be appointed to go and collect this money, it would have a much greater effect upon the man than if an ordinary unofficial person were appointed. If a man saw a policeman at his door calling for the money it would make him mach more anxious and willing to pay than if a Police Court missionary or some other ordinary individual were to call upon him. I would prefer that a policeman were appointed; but as long as it is understood that there is freedom to the justices to appoint whomever they think fit, perhaps the noble Lord in those circumstances will not wish to press his Amendment.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I understand that as the Bill is drafted there is no definition, and the magistrates therefore have complete discretion in the matter.

LORD STRAGRIE

I was just going to say that. I was going to refer to Clause 1, 'yhi.ch says— There shall be appointed to each petty sessional court for the purposes of this Act an officer of the court who shall carry out the duties of the collecting officer under this Act. It is quite clear as far as I can see, although I am not a lawyer, that the interpretation would be that they can appoint, as I have already said, a policeman, or the superintendent, or their own clerk, or the Court missionary, or a probation officer, so that there ought to be no difficulty about that. Then I would say to the noble Lord, who was so anxious just now that the man should not be damaged as regards any objection taken by his employer, that the employer might very naturally take an objection to a policeman constantly calling at his premises, and tell the workman to go. I think it would be better to leave the matter as it is.

LORD GORELL

I did riot gather from the reading of Clause 1 that the magistrates had such a wide discretion as the noble Lord seems to suggest. But as the noble Lord tells us that it is so, I am quite prepared to withdraw the Amendment.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

It is really a matter for the Home Office. If the noble Lord tells us it is quite clear, in the opinion of the Home Office, that the magistrates will understand what their powers are, it seems to me there is no more to be said.

LORD STRACHIE

If the noble Marquess desires it, I am quite ready, in order that there should be no possible doubt, to undertake to ask the opinion of the Home Office definitely on the point, bearing in mind what has been said here to day.

EARL BATHURST

Would the noble Lord (Lord Strachie) be prepared to accept the Amendment on the understanding that if in the opinion of the Home Office it is unnecessary it would be taken out afterwards?

LORD STRACHIE

I cannot agree to that suggestion. As I have said, I will undertake to reconsider this point with the officials of the Home Office, and see whether it is necessary to put in additional words clearly giving discretionary powers to the magistrates.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

The Report of Amendments to be received on Tuesday next, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 127.)