HL Deb 17 February 1913 vol 13 cc1342-56

(means that certificates for the sale of exciseable liquors shall only be granted to an authorised public company, and that the surplus profits of such company, after the payment of specified charges, are to be paid to a fund for use for public purposes throughout Scotland in accordance with the provisions of this Act).

The Commons disagree to these Amendments:

Because the Amendments are consequential on an Amendment made by the Lords to which the Commons have disagreed.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

As to the first Amendment—Clause 2, page 2, line 2, after "resolution" to insert "or of a disinterested management resolution, as the case may be"— I move to insist upon that.

Moved, That this House do insist on the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

I propose that we do not insist upon subsections (5) and (11), but that we substitute for them the new subsections standing in my name.

Moved, That this House do not insist on the said subsections.—(Lord Balfour of Burleiyh.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Moved, To insert instead thereof the following new subsections (5) and (11):

(5) For the period during which a disinterested management resolution remains in force in any area, no certificate shall be granted for a public house (not being an inn and hotel or not being premises structurally adapted for use and to be used solely as a restaurant) except to an authorised public company: Provided that a certificate shall not be so granted unless the company has given such security, either by way of deposit or otherwise as the licensing court requires, for the payment by the company, by way of such instalments as may be determined by the licensing court to the Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board established under this Act, of one-half of the total declared value of the certificates in the area, as insured in accordance with the Third Schedule of this Act, which have been withdrawn in pursuance of the disinterested management resolution; or where applications for certificates within the area are entertained from more than one authorised public company, security for the payment of such proportion of half the total declared value aforesaid as may be determined by the licensing court. The liability imposed upon any authorised public company in pursuance of the foregoing provision shall cease and determine if and when the certificates granted to the authorised public company are withdrawn in conseqeunce of the disinterested management resolution, in pursuance of which the liability was imposed, having ceased to be in force.

(11) Unless within three months after a disinterested management resolution is carried an authorised public company has made an application in writing to the licensing court of the area stating that the company is desirous of carrying on business in the area in accordance with the provisions of this section, and has satisfied the licensing court that the company is able and willing to undertake the liability for payments to the Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board imposed by this section, the disinterested management resolution and the poll at which the resolution was carried shall be void and in such case if a requisition is made under this Act another poll may be taken in the month of November or December next following or at an earlier date if the local authority by resolution so determine.—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

The next Amendment is subsection (6). I move that we insist.

Moved, That this House do insist upon the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I have an Amendment on subsection (7). I propose that your Lordships insist on subsection (7) with the exception of paragraph (d), in lieu of which I propose a new paragraph. The reason for this proposal is this. In another place it was pointed out that a certain confusion arose by reading this Bill with the Act of 1903. Under this Bill it was proposed, as your Lordships sent the Bill down to another place, that no one interested in the liquor trade should have any control over the disinterested management companies. Interest in the liquor trade was a vague phrase, and the Secretary for Scotland suggested that people who were interested in disinterested management companies were themselves interested in the liquor trade, which was therefore a contradiction in terms. I am not sure that we admit that reading of the two Acts of Parliament, but in order to prevent any confusion we have re-drafted the paragraph in such a way as to prevent that possible confusion occurring. I am afraid I must admit there has been a misprint in the Amendment, and I must ask your Lordships to allow me to insert, after the word "corporate" in line 5 of the new paragraph, the words "carrying on any such business," which have mysteriously slipped out.

Moved, That this House do insist on subsection (7) with the exception of paragraph (d).—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Moved, That this House do not insist upon paragraph (d) of subsection (7) being part of the Amendment inserted by this House in clause 3, page 3, line 25 of the Bill, but propose instead thereof the following new paragraph: (d) that no person who carries on or is in partnership with any person for the purpose of carrying on the business of a brewer, maltster, distiller, or dealer in, or retailer of exciseable liquors or who is a director of or holds a controlling interest in any company or body corporate carrying on any such business other than an authorised public company within the meaning of this Act shall be eligible to be a member or director or shareholder of an authorised public company, and every person win shall knowingly or wilfully offend against any of the provisions aforesaid shall forfeit and pay the sum of fifty poems to be recovered before the sheriff within six calendar months next after the offence has been committed; and.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

I have no objection to the Amendment, but it seems to me that this clause as re-drafted requires very careful consideration. I do not like the word "controlling" in it, because I do not want anybody who has an interest in any company or body corporate to come into disinterested management. I distrust this Amendment a good deal, because one thing I am particularly anxious about is that there should not be the slightest risk of the authorised company for disinterested management ever falling, either directly or indirectly, under the control of the trade in any shape or form. I believe the noble Marquess is just as anxious for that as I am, but, as far as I understand it, I do not think it will be sufficient to strike out anybody who holds a controlling interest. Therefore I think the word "controlling" is a dangerous word as it stands, and personally, of course, I would very much prefer that this Amendment was not moved.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

The reason for the word "controlling" is that if we did not insert some such word every shareholder of any brewery company would be precluded from having anything to do with disinterested management. That appears to be too drastic, and therefore we put in the word "controlling" to limit the drastic character of the Amendment.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

It is not in order for me to speak again, and it is not possible for me to divide the House on the matter. I only wish to dissociate myself from this Amendment—at any rate for the present.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I now move that we insist upon subsections (8), (9) and (10).

Moved, That this House do insist upon the said. Amendments.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

The Motion standing in my name on the Paper conies in here. The only reason for this is that it was objected to by the Secretary for Scotland in another place that if the Amendment as we sent it down were accepted a new poll could not be taken in the county for two years. This is a bona fide attempt to meet some of the criticisms that have been made.

Moved, That this House do not insist upon the Amendment inserted by this House to Clause 3, page 3, lines 27 and 28, i.e., the Amendment by which the following words were inserted: or, exeept where the grant of a certificate is refused to an authorised public company, in pursuance of a disinterested management resolution."—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH

The Amendment standing in my name is consequential.

Moved, To insert the following Amendment consequential upon new subsection (11) in Clause 3. Page 5, line 11, after ("competent") insert ("or where a poll has become void under the provisions of this Act").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OE SALISBURY

I move that we insist on the remaining Amendments in Clause 4 which immediately follow on page 5 of the Commons Blue Paper.

Moved, That this House do insist upon the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

We next come to the Amendment to the Second Schedule. The point is that now that my noble friend has cut out hotels and restaurants he requires a very slight alteration in the Schedule. Of that he has given notice, and I venture to suggest to Lord Balfour that we ought not to insist on the Lords Amendment here, but in lieu thereof insert later on his new Amendment on the White Paper.

Moved, That this House do not insist upon the said Amendment.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Lords Amendments.

Clause 2, page 2, lines 14 to 18, leave out from ("poll") to the end of subsection (4).

Clause 4, page 4, lines 4 and 5, leave out from ("resolution") to the end of paragraph (b).

The Commons disagree to there Amendments:

Because they consider that it is reasonable in the event contemplated that the votes recorded in favour of a no-licence Resolution should be added to those recorded in favour of a limiting Resolution.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

We now come to your Lordships' Amendments in Clause 2, page 2, lines 14 to 18, leaving out from "poll" to the end of subsection (4); and in Clause 4, page 4, lines 4 and 5, leaving out from "resolution" to the end of paragraph (b). Your Lordships will see the note appended to that by the Commons. There has been some error in combining these two Amendments and giving the same reason for disagreement in the case of both; although there is some excuse, as what was given in the one case was meant to be balanced by what was given in the other when a limiting resolution was in force. Technically they should not be placed together, but they really are consequential one upon the other; and although His Majesty's Government hope that your Lordships will not insist on your Amendments I certainly shall not ask the House to divide upon the question.

Moved, That this House do not insist upon the said Amendments.—(Earl Beauchamp.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

This question is the automatic transfer of the vote. The history of the matter is that a very large majority of your Lordships thought that the automatic transfer of the vote was indefensible, and it was struck out. It had reference to only three options, and afterwards we inserted a fourth option on the motion of Lord Courtney. His had the enormous merit compared with the old scheme that it was not automatic. The elector was allowed to decide for himself in which direction his vote should be exercised. On this part of the Bill the criticism of Lord Courtney to-day—that the action of the Commons in respect to these Amendments was unintelligible—was justified, because without the least amount of consideration they adhered to this unintelligent automatic alternative, and cut out Lord Courtney's care fully thought out scheme. Therefore I think we cannot do anything but insist upon our Amendments in this case.

On Question, Motion negatived, and Amendments insisted on accordingly.

Lords Amendments.

Clause 2, page 2, line 18, at the end of subsection (4) insert ("An elector in giving his vote: (a) must place on his ballot paper the figure (1) in the space opposite the resolution for which he votes; but (b) may in addition place on his ballot paper the figure (2) or the figures (2) and (3), or the figures (2), (3), and (4) in the spaces opposite the other resolutions in the order of his preference. If on a scrutiny it is found that no resolution has been carried in accordance with the conditions above prescribed, the no-licence resolution shall be deemed to have been negatived and the papers marked (1) against such resolutions shall be examined and transferred in accordance with the preferences, if any, expressed upon them to the new resolution or resolutions marked (2) on such papers; and if after this transfer no one of the three remaining resolutions is found to have been carried, the resolution in favour of disinterested management shall be deemed to have been negatived, and the voting papers which either originally or by transference support this resolution shall be examined and transferred in accordance with the preferences, if any, expressed upon them. If the limiting resolution is then found not to have been carried, the no-change resolution shall be deemed to be carried.")

Second Schedule, page 12, line 24, leave out ("making an X") and insert ("marking the figure (1)").

Page 12, line 25,leave out ("for") and leave out from the first ("you") to the end of the Schedule and insert ("most prefer. You may further mark the figures (2), (3) and (4) opposite the other resolutions in the order of your choice").

The Commons disagree to these Amendments:

Because they consider that the method of taking a poll and arriving at the result thereof is unnecessarily complicated.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

We have now come to the Amendments generally associated with the name of my noble friend behind me, Lord Courtney. I am anxious not to detain your Lordships, but I want to say to him that I hope he clearly understands that the opposition in another place to these Amendments was not raised so much as an objection to the Amendments themselves, but in view of the fact that by the time these particular Amendments had been reached the disinterested management option had already been removed from the Bill. The Amendments in the form in which they had been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Courtney, were clearly therefore impossible, and any grounds of criticism which were directed against the Amendments of my noble friend were directed to them in the circumstances in which they were then put before the House of Commons and not against their intrinsic merits. I will once more move that this House do not insist on the Amendments, but with the expectation that your Lordships will not agree with the Motion.

Moved, That this House do not insist upon the said Amendments. — (Earl Beauchamp.)

On Question, Motion negatived, and Amendments insisted on accordingly.

Lords Amendments.

Clause 3, page 3, lines 26 and 27, leave out ("or reducing")

Clause 3, lines 27 and 28, leave out ("or of a limiting resolution") and insert (" or except where the grant of a certificate is refused to an authorised public company in pursuance of a disinterested management resolution")

Clause 3, page 3, line 28, after ("appeal") insert ("but where any certificate has been withdrawn to give effect to a limiting resolution an appeal shall lie from such decision as in the ease of the refusal of the renewal of a certificate under the Provisions of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903: Provided always that if the result of any appeal or appeals under this provision is to render the certificates in existence in the area in excess of the number allowed by the limiting resolution, the licensing court shall before the next general half-yearly meeting of the licensing court, prepare a scheme for the reduction of the certificates to the aforesaid number, and shall notify the same in manner similar to that prescribed in respect of the original scheme and shall proceed to give effect thereto").

The Commons disagree to these Amendments:

Because the proposal to allow an appeal from the licensing court to the Court of Appeal where the licensing court has refused to renew the grant of a certificate in pursuance of a limiting resolution would make the machinery of reduction complicated and unworkable.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

These Amendments were negatived without a Division in another place. There was a very strong feeling on the subject, and therefore I beg to move that this House do not insist on the said Amendments.

Moved, That this House do not insist on the said Amendments. — (Earl Beauchamp.)

On Question, Motion negatived, and Amendments insisted on accordingly.

Lords Amendments.

Clause 5, page 4, lines 20 to 35, leave out ("Subsection (1)") and insert the following new subsection: ("(1) The requisition for a poll shall be made upon a requisition paper which shall be in the form set out in Schedule I of this Act and shall be signed by not less than one-tenth of the electors in the area. On the written demand of ten electors made not earlier than the fifteenth day of August or later than the twenty-fifth day of August next preceding the elate on which a poll can be taken under this Act a requisition paper shall be prepared by the clerk to the local authority who shall forthwith insert, in not less than two newspapers circulating in the district a notice that such paper is being publicly exhibited at his office, or at such fit and convenient place within the area to which the requisition applies as he shall in such notice specify for signature and inspection until the thirtieth day of the next following month of September when it will be removed. If the requisition paper shall he found by the local authority to have been duly signed by not less than one-tenth of the electors in the area, the cleric to the local authority shall thereupon insert in not less than two newspapers circulating in the area a notice that such requisition has been duly signed")

Clause 5, page 6, line 10, leave out from the second ("requisition") to ("shall") in line 13.

The Commons disagree to these Amendments:

Because it seems unreasonable to require that the requisition should be signed only in a specified place.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

These Amendments were inserted in the Bill on my motion, and although I think that the plan which the Government propose is a plan which will promote improper canvassing, I do not think the subject is sufficiently important for me to ask your Lordships to insist on your Amendments.

Moved, That the House do not insist on the said Amendments.—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Lords Amendments.

After Clause 5 insert Clause A:

A.—(1) There shall be established in accordance with the provisions of the Third Schedule to this Act a Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board and also a Scottish Licence Holders Mutual Insurance Association or Associations, and every holder of a certificate shall insure in such an association in respect of each certificate held by him.

(2) The insurance of certificates shall be carried out in accordance with the provisions set out in the Third Schedule to this Act.

(3) A person from whom a certificate is withdrawn in pursuance of a resolution under this Act may, in accordance with the scheme set forth in the Third Schedule to this Act, recover the moneys payable to him thereunder: Provided always, and it is hereby expressly declared, that any claim in respect of the declared value of the certificate shall be enforceable only if, and in so far as, moneys for the payment of such claims are available under the said scheme.

(4) No excise licence for the sale by retail of exciseable liquor shall be granted by the Commissioners of Customs and Excise or by any officer of Customs and Excise except upon the production by the person authorised to hold the licence of a receipt for the insurance of his certificate for the year to which the licence relates and for any levy under the provisions of the Third Schedule to this Act.

(5) This section shall take effect as from the passing of this Act.

After the Second Schedule insert the following new schedule:

1. Every holder of a certificate shall before the twenty-eighth day of May next after the grant to him of a certificate become a member of a Mutual Insurance Association (in this Schedule referred to as "an association") which shall be an association not carried on for profit and shall be registered under the Companies (Consolidation) Act, 1908, or the Friendly Societies Acts. The affairs of an association shall be subject to the absolute control of its members and one of the objects of an association shall be the insuring of every member of the association against loss arising from the withdrawal of his certificate by reason of a resolution under this Act. An association shall have a membership of not less than—

  1. (a) in the case of an association insuring only "on" licences persons holding in the aggregate not less than one thousand such licences; or
    2. 1352
  2. (b) in the case of an association insuring only "off" licences persons holding in the aggregate not less than five hundred such licences; or
  3. (c) in the case of an association insuring both "on" and "off" licences persons holding in the aggregate not less than one thousand "on" licences and persons holding in the aggregate not less than five hundred "off" licences.

2.—(1) Every holder of a certificate shall be entitled to become a member of an association, and an application for the insurance of a certificate shall not be refused by an association except on the ground that the certificate in respect of I which such application is made is already insured under the provisions of this Act, and an association which refuses or fails, except as aforesaid, duly to give a receipt for a premium paid or tendered in respect of the insurance of a certificate shall be liable, in the event of the withdrawal-of such certificate by reason of a resolution under this Act, to pay to the person whose certificate has been withdrawn the full declared value of such certificate.

(2) The application to become insured in an association shall be signed by the applicant, and shall contain a declaration of the value in accordance with rules made by the Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board (hereinafter called "the declared value") of the certificate to be insured.

(3) The declared value shall be an amount not exceeding seven years purchase of the net annual profit from the sale of exciseable liquors carried on under the certificate, ascertained on the average of the three preceding years.

(4) When the declared value of a certificate has not been ascertained a receipt for the insurance of such certificate shall be issued by an association to the holder thereof on payment of the premium upon a provisional estimate of the declared value made by the holder of the certificate, and such receipt shall be sufficient for the purposes of subsection (4) of section 6 of this Act provided that an adjustment of the premium to be paid by the holder of the certificate to an association shall be made when the declared value has been ascertained, and failure to pay the sum by which the premium paid falls short of the full amount due shall be a sufficient ground for withholding a receipt for the premium paid in the succeeding year, and any over payment by the holder of the certificate in respect of a provisional estimate shall be retained by an association as part payment of the premium in respect of the declared value in the succeeding year.

4. The premium payable to an association in respect of the insurance of a certificate under this Act shall be an annual premium payable in advance and inclusive of the expenses of administration shall be at such rate not exceeding one half per centum of the declared value as the central board (established under this Schedule) may determine.

5.—(1) As soon as may be, but not later than four months after the passing of this Act there shall be constituted a Board to be styled the "Scottish Licence Holders Central Insurance Board" (in this Schedule referred to as the "Central Board").

(2) The Central Board first constituted shall be elected by holders of certificates and shall consist of nine members of whom four shall be "on" licence holders, two "off" licence holders and the remaining members a brewer, distiller, and wholesale dealer respectively, who may act with a quorum of three and shall hold office for not more than two years.

(3) The Central Board shall be a body corporate with a common seal, and shall elect a chairman from their own number.

(4) The Secretary of the Licensed Trade Defence Association of Scotland shall receive nominations for membership and proceed to the election of a Central Board within three months after the passing of this Act, which election shall be decided by the holders of a majority of the certificates voting for a representative of each of the several classes of constituent members of such Board, and the expenses of such election shall be a charge against the first premiums payable in respect of insurance under the provisions of this Act.

6. The Central Board shall within twelve months after the passing of this Act, and from time to time thereafter if occasion arises, may make rules prescribing amongst other things—

  1. (1) The conditions on which the declared value of certificates may be ascertained, approved, modified, or re-adjusted, and the method of verification of declared value if a certificate is withdrawn;
  2. (2) The manner of subsequent election and the number of members of the Board, which shall not exceed twenty-one, the quorum, the duration of their office and the basis of representation: Provided that at least nine members shall be elected in the same proportions and in the same manner as in the Central Board first constituted, and in addition, each association may elect one member to the Central Board for every one thousand certificates insured with such association;
  3. (3) The furnishing of receipts by secretaries of associations for premiums or levies;
  4. (4) The mode in which claims and payments in respect of claims are to be made;
  5. (5) Any matters incidental to the proper conduct of the affairs of the Board and to carrying out the provisions of this Act:

Provided always that no such rule shall contain anything inconsistent with the provisions of this Act, and every such rule shall be subject to the approval of the Secretary for Scotland.

7.—(1) On or before the thirtieth day of June in each year every association shall pay to the Central Board eight shillings and sixpence per centum of the declared value from the amount of the premiums received by the association under the provisions of this Act.

(2) The amounts received in respect of premiums paid by holders of certificates for on-licences and by holders of certificates for off-licences respectively, shall be carried by the Central Board to two separate accounts to be called respectively "The On-Licence Holders' Insurance Fund" and "The Off-Licence Holders' Insurance Fund." No part of the "On-Licence Holders' insurance Fund" shall be applied to the payment of any claim relating to an officence and no part of the "Off-Licence Holders' Insurance Fund" shall be applied to the payment of any claim relating to an on-licence. The Central Board shall have the management of the said funds, and the investment thereof, and the whole of the said funds shall be applied to the payment of claims as provided by this Act.

(3) The necessary preliminary and office and administration expenses of the Central Board shall be contributed by each association in proportion to the total declared values of the certificates insured by said associations: Provided that the fees to members of the Central Board shall not exceed an aggregate of one thousand pounds in any one year.

8.—(1) When a certificate is withdrawn by reason of any resolution carried under this Act, a claim upon the appropriate fund to an amount not exceeding the declared value shall thereupon arise, provided that no such claim shall be enforceable against the Central Board except in respect of funds in the possession of and sums due to the Central Board at the time when the claim arises and sums due to the Central Board before the expiration of the year in which such certificate is withdrawn, and where the certificate has been withdrawn in pursuance of a disinterested management resolution, in respect also of sums received by or due to the Central Board under the provisions of subsection (5) of section three of this Act.

(2) When either of the funds of the Central Board is insufficient to meet the claims of members of associations in any particular year, the appropriate fund shall be divided among such members in proportion to the declared value of the certificates.

9.—(1) Where in any year the respective amounts paid by the Central Board are insufficient to pay in full the respective claims arising in that year of "on" or "off" licence holders, a claim shall thereupon be enforceable against an association by any member thereof whose claim against the Central Board in respect of a certificate insured by such association has not been paid in full, and the directors of an association shall impose upon the on-licence holders or off-licence holders (as the case may require) who are members of the association a levy not exceeding one and half per centum of the declared value of each certificate.

(2) If the proceeds of the levy are insufficient to pay in full the claims in respect of which it was made, the unpaid balance of the claims shall be carried forward for the two following years, and in each of these years, if necessary, the like levy shall be made and the proceeds thereof shall be applied to the payment of all outstanding claims, and to no other purpose.

(3) After the distribution in the third year all claims against an association in respect of a certificate which has been withdrawn shall be deemed to have been discharged.

10. The holder of a certificate who has paid the premium payable in respect of the insurance of the certificate or a levy under section eight of this Schedule shall be entitled to deduct from the interest on any loan advanced to him under any agreement, undertaking, or covenant binding him to obtain a supply of excisable liquor from the leader a sum bearing such proportion to the said premium or levy as the loan bears to the declared value of the said certificate: Provided that the lender shall have a right to any sum receivable under this Schedule, proportionate to the premium or levy paid by him, and in default of agreement the amount of premium or levy to be deducted or the sum due to the lender shall be determined by the sheriff.

11. All sums due by an authorised public company under the provisions of subsection (5) of section three of this Act shall be paid to the Central Board, and shall be applied by the Central Board towards the payment of the claims of the licence holders in respect of the withdrawal of whose certificates such sums are payable.

12. The clerk of a licensing court shall, on request, in writing, furnish to the Central Board or to an association or before the constitution of the Central Board to the secretary of the Licensed Trade Defence Association of Scotland a list of all the persons who have obtained certificates or the sale by retail of excisable liquor in the district within the jurisdiction of the licensing court for the current year, in conformity with the conditions set out in section twenty-five of the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, which shall apply with the necessary modifications.

13. In this Schedule, unless the context otherwise requires,—

The expression "on licence" means a licence for the sale of any excisable liquor for consumption on the premises:

The expression "off licence" means a licence for the sale of any excisable liquor not to be consumed on the premises.

The Commons disagree to these Amendments:

Because they consider it is undesirable to set up a compulsory scheme of insurance, the provisions of which are unsatisfactory in themselves, and inappropriate to this Bill.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

This brings us to the compulsory insurance question, on which I have no more to say except that His Majesty's Government are unable to agree to these Amendments. I think the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury, has some Amendments to make to-day. But it is unnecessary for me to detain your Lordships by repeating our arguments on the subject.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I am afraid we cannot consent to drop the insurance scheme. Your Lordships will have realised that we are by no means bigoted as to the particular form of the insurance scheme. All we could do we did to the best of our power. We had not access to the information or to the resources which the Government have access to, but we did the best we could. The matter is a very complicated one. I am not prepared to say that we have reached a perfect scheme, and I earnestly hope that the Government will devote their attention to this subject if the Bill does not pass through in the present session, and that we shall be able to agree on a scheme hereafter. This is a matter which primarily concerns the trade and the trade alone; they are the only contributors to the insurance fund. Your Lordships are aware of the enormous number of licensees who, by themselves or their representatives, have supported a mutual insurance scheme very much on these lines. The changes made subsequently owing to your Lordships' views were comparatively minor amendments, although of importance; but as regards the main scheme there is this solid opinion in its favour on the part of the licensed trade. For that reason we desire to insist upon it in order that the unfortunate man who is turned out should not be turned out without a half-penny. I beg, therefore, to move that we insist on the whole clause excluding the new Schedule.

Moved, That this House do insist on the said Amendments.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

Moved, That this House (having decided not to insist upon the Amendment inserted in the Second Schedule, page 12, after line 15) do propose instead thereof the following Amendment: