HL Deb 04 February 1913 vol 13 cc819-24

[The Commons Reasons are printed in italics.]

Lords Amendments.

Clause 90, page 57, line 33, leave out ("sell").

Clause 90, page 58, line 6, leave out sub-clause (2) and insert the following new sub-clause (2): (2) The corporation shall not under the powers, of this section themselves execute the wiring of private property except between the main of the Corporation and the consumer's meter but they may enter into contracts for the execution of any of the powers of this section including the wiring of private property, provided that the contractor acts independently of the Corporation in the execution of the contract. The Corporation shall not under such powers sell any such electrical fittings except through a contractor carrying on his business independently of the Corporation.

The Commons disagree to these Amendments:

1. Because in 1898 the Sheffield Corporation under express Parliamentary sanction purchased their electricity undertaking which included a fitting and wiring business.

2. Because the price paid by the Corporation for the wiring and fitting business was £13,344 and further capital to the extent of upwards of £7,000 has been invested therein and the said sums were borrowed with the sanction of the Local Government Board.

3. Because the Corporation carried on and developed the business bona fide believing themselves to have the necessary powers until the beginning of this year when the courts decided otherwise notwithstanding proceedings pending since 1906.

4. Because there is only one electrical contractor in Sheffield who commenced business before the wiring and fittings business was established, and only 15 who commenced business prior to the acquisition of the business by the Corporation.

5. Because the Corporation have conducted the business so that it has never been a charge upon the rates, but, on the contrary, has contributed towards the other portion of their electricity undertaking.

6. Because the Committee of the House of Commons, after hearing opponents and fully considering the matter, were of opinion that the powers should be granted, and Sir Henry Kimber, the Chairman of the Committee, stated that— "The Committee do not ignore, but they quite recognise the principle of municipal trading not being encouraged beyond what is necessary and expedient in the special circumstances of this case for the inhabitants"

Also that— "It is a case in which, although there is the objection to municipal trading in principle, yet in the circumstances which have transpired in the course of the last 14 years, including the fact that Parliament in 1903, granted an analogous power as regards motors, powers to sell fittings, and so on, the word 'sell', giving the power to sell, may be retained in the clause."

He further stated that— "The Committee have given most anxious attention to the principle embodied in the model clause of avoiding municipal trading, bat we think this, as an exceptional case, might be allowed."

LORD SOUTHWARK had given notice of the following Motion— That this House do not insist upon their Amendments disagreed to by the Commons, but propose the following new sub-clause to clause 90 in lieu of sub-clause (2): (2) The Corporation may enter into contracts for the execution of any of the powers of this section including the wiring of private property. The Corporation shall not under the powers of this section sell any such electrical fittings (other than lamps and electric lines, fuses and switches and such other electrical fittings as are used in connection with the wiring of private property) except through a contractor carrying on his business independently of the Corporation.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, a short time ago I thought I should have had to occupy the attention of your Lordships for a considerable time with regard to the Motion which appears on the paper in my name, but I am happy to say that within the last hour wise counsels have prevailed and the Corporation of Sheffield and the traders have come together. I therefore propose, with your Lordships' permission, to move my new sub-clause in an altered form, which I hope will be acceptable to the House and do away with any long discussion. I propose to omit from the new sub-clause as it appears on the Paper the words "lamps and," and to insert, after "switches," the words "ceiling roses," and after the word "property" where it last occurs to insert "from the distribution main as far as the ceiling, wall, or floor outlet only." It practically means that the Corporation will only have power to carry the wiring as far as the walls and ceilings, and the rest of the work will be left in the hands of the traders. As a matter of fact, the Corporation of Sheffield have never desired to interfere with the private trader. As far back as 1898 they obtained powers from Parliament to carry on this electric lighting work, which they have done, I believe, with considerable success and benefit to the City of Sheffield. Moreover, the Local Government Board gave them power to borrow money to buy the undertaking which they took over when they started this work. If the matter had been warmly contested this evening, I should have been able to make out a very good case for continuing these powers to the Sheffield Corporation on exceptional grounds. This is quite an exceptional case. The Sheffield Corporation have not come here with any desire to cultivate municipal trading. As far as I am personally concerned I am a very limited municipal trader; I only go as far as national matters of great importance. Therefore I am not advocating municipal trading this evening, but what I should have advocated, had it been necessary to go into this matter, would have been that an act of great injustice would have been inflicted on Sheffield if the new sub-clause which I should have moved had not been accepted. I am glad, however, that there has been a little give and take on both sides, and I believe that in future the Corporation of Sheffield and the traders, as far as regards this matter, will live on friendly terms if your Lordships are good enough to pass the new sub-clause in the altered terms in which I now beg to move it.

Moved, That this House do not insist upon their Amendments disagreed to by the Commons, but propose the following new sub-clause to clause 90 in lieu of sub-clause (2): (2) The Corporation may enter into contracts for the execution of any of the powers of this section including the wiring of private property. The Corporation shall not under the powers of this section sell any such electrical fittings (other than electric lines, fuses, switches, ceiling roses, and such other electrical fittings as are used in connection with the wiring of private property from the distribution main as far as the ceiling, wall, or floor outlet only) except through a contractor carrying on his business independently of the Corporation."—(Lord Southwark).

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE)

My Lords, the noble Lord has stated the events of the last hour to your Lordships perfectly correctly. It is, as far as I am concerned, only thirty-five minutes since I saw the parties, who informed me that they had been able to come to an agreement on this point. Naturally I am glad that an agreement has been come to, for I should have been sorry had the fate of this Bill, which deals with a great many subjects, been at all prejudiced by any small disagreement on this point, and I think your Lordships would do well to agree to this settlement by agreement between the parties in this particular case. I do not think I need say more than that. I should have been quite ready, as other of your Lordships would have been, to argue the merits with the noble Lord behind me if it had been necessary to do so. In fact, he only hinted one point in regard to which I venture to differ from him. He said that the Corporation of Sheffield obtained these powers in 1898. I think I should have been able to show your Lordships that the Sheffield Corporation did not get these powers in 1898, though they believe they got them then. I only say that as a matter of caveat and for the purposes of record. In leaving this case, all I would like to say is this. Whilst advising your Lordships to accept this compromise on the present occasion I hope it will be distinctly understood—I believe when I say this I am expressing what is the almost unanimous opinion of your Lordships—that this House is not at all weakening on the attitude which it has taken up in recent years on this question of electrical wiring and fittings. Not only is there a model clause of your Lordships' House on the subject which has been insisted on in Bills time and again but there is also the record of what your Lordships did in 1909 in the case of the Electric Lighting Act of that year. That, your Lordships will remember, was a Government Bill introduced into this House by Lord Hamilton of Dalzell—a Bill in which your Lordships inserted the model clause on the Report stage. The House of Commons disagreed with the model clause, and the Act leaves the question severely alone. Anyhow I am not going too far when I say that your Lordships insisted upon the policy of your model clause in the Public Bill of 1909. Very largely on the action you then took we have, on your behalf, insisted on the model clause in all private Bills since 1909; and I hope it will be understood that, whilst we accept this compromise—if your Lordships think right to accept it in regard to this Bill—it in no way weakens the action your Lordships have taken in years past on the question of wiring or the supplying of lamps by public authorities.

LORD FABER

My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Earl who has just sat down whether it is not correct that the Chairman of Committees in the House of Commons and the Chairman of Committees in your Lordships' House met only last year and strengthened the model clause in so far as contractors are concerned, so as not to permit of dummy contractors being appointed by a corporation who wanted to do this work through the dummy contractors. That shows that the mind of the House even as late as last year was emphatic that the model clause should be put in. In the circumstances I shall not, of course, go into the merits of the question, but I can say, without going into the merits, that the other side versus Sheffield had a very strong case.

THE DUKE OF WELLINGTON

My Lords, as Chairman of the Committee of your Lordships' House who considered this Bill I should like to be allowed to say that, although we are glad that the matter has been compromised and accept the compromise, we still think the model clause met the justice of the case. The question was very carefully considered by your Lordships' Committee. Several more witnesses were heard on both sides by us than was the case in the Committee of the House of Commons; and, with one exception, we came unanimously to the conclusion that the model clause was a proper one to insert. I agree that it would be a great pity if this Bill were to be lost, and as the parties have agreed to a compromise there is nothing more to be said.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY

My Lords, may I, as a member of the Committee who considered this Bill, support what has fallen from our Chairman. The Committee felt that the application made on behalf of the Corporation of Sheffield was excessive; it opened up an entirely new field of discussion, and the power sought for introduced a dangerous precedent for future cases. It is true that there are many things which it is necessary that municipal bodies should carry out, such as water and similar undertakings; but clearly this is a class of municipal trading which Parliamentary Committees have at all times been very disinclined to allow. I noticed in the discussion elsewhere that the principal point for allowing this clause to stand as desired by the Sheffield Corporation was the number of years that the Corporation had carried on this work. With all respect I do not see that the number of years a Corporation has been doing a thing which is wrong is any excuse for allowing it to continue to do so in the future. I am glad a compromise has been arrived at; and while your Lordships may be willing to sanction this to-day I hope that it will not be taken as a precedent for the future, but that the model clause, which has been drawn up on this point will be at all times closely adhered to.

On Question, Motion agreed to, and Bill returned to the Commons.