Lords Sitting of 13 August 1913

COMPANIES (CONSOLIDATION) ACT, 1908, AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
FORGERY (No. 2) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

ANCIENT MONUMENTS CONSOLIDATION AND AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments to be considered To-morrow.
ALEXANDRA PARK AND PALACE BILL. [H.L.]
CITY AND SOUTH LONDON RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
MORLEY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL.
WESTERN VALLEYS (MONMOUTHSHIRE) RAILLESS ELECTRIC TRACTION BILL.
WESTMINSTER HOSPITAL BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ADJUSTMENTS) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment, agreed to.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 8 KTNGSTOWN) BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have suspended any further proceedings on the Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 8 Kingstown) Bill [H.L.], and to request that their Lordships will concur in such suspension: The said Message to be considered To-morrow.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No: 21) BILL.
Consideration of Commons Message (which stands appointed for this day) put off till To-morrow.

POST OFFICE (LONDON) RAILWAY BILL.
Debate on the Amendment moved on Report yesterday resumed (according to Order).
The following amended Amendment stood on the Paper in time name of the Earl of Craven—
Clause 6, at end insert the following new sub-sections:
"(2) The Postmaster-General may lay down along the railway, and maintain and use cables, mains, lines, and apparatus for transmitting electrical energy for the purpose of working and lighting the railway and for use in any part of any post office building in communication with the railway by means of a shaft or in the buildings of the Post Office in or near St. Martin's-le-Grand and Queen Victoria, Street in the city of London and Mount Pleasant Clerkenwell or in any extension of any such building within a distance of fifty yards and for the purpose of general telegraphic (including telephonic) communication.
"(3) The Postmaster-General may transmit, transform, and use for the purposes of this Act electrical energy generated or transformed at any Post Office generating station or sub-station, and for the transmission of such electrical energy may lay down and maintain all necessary and convenient cables, mains, lines, and apparatus, but nothing in this Act shall authorise the Postmaster-General to use such electrical energy for lighting or heating any part of any post office building other than the buildings and extensions of buildings mentioned in the preceding subsection.
"(4) The Postmaster-General may enter upon and open and break up streets and other public places for flu- purpose of laying down and maintaining cables mains lines and apparatus—

"(a) from any post office generating station or sub-station to the railway; and

"(b) for any distance not exceeding fifty yards for the purpose of connecting any portion or extension of any such building as is referred to in subsection (2) of this section with any other portion or extension thereof or with any other such building as aforesaid;

subject however to the following provisions and restrictions, that is to say:—

"(a) He shall with all convenient speed complete the work on account of which he opened or broke up the same, and fill in the ground and make good the surface, and generally restore the street or place to as good a condition as that in which it was before being opened or broken up, and carry away all rubbish occasioned thereby;

"(b) He shall in the meantime cause the place where the street or public place is opened or broken up to be fenced and watched, and to be properly lighted at night;

"(c) He shall pay all reasonable expenses of keeping the street or public place in good repair for twelve months after the same is restored, so far as such expenses may be increased by such opening or breaking up.

"(5) The Postmaster-General and any company, authority, or person having power under any Act of Parliament or Order confirmed by Parliament to supply electrical energy may make and carry into effect agreements and arrangements for the supply of electrical energy to the Postmaster-General for the purposes of this Act, and for executing any works or providing any apparatus necessary for the purposes of such supply, but nothing in this subsection shall authorise any such company, authority, or person to break up the surface of any public street or place.
"(6) The Postmaster-General shall invite tenders for the supply of electrical energy for the railway from the companies and local authorities who are empowered to give such supply, and if he is satisfied that, taking all the circumstances into account, an appreciable saving would result to the Post Office by taking a supply from any such company or local authority, the Postmaster-General shall do so."—(The Earl of Craven.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: When your Lordships had this Bill under discussion last evening it will be remembered that there was a difference of opinion as to whether the Amendment moved on behalf of His Majesty's Government should be agreed to, and as the result of a conversation it was suggested to the noble Marquess who leads the House that he should modify the Amendment to some extent and bring up new words this afternoon. There are a certain number of printed copies of such new words so proposed upon your Lordships' Table, but I do not know that all the members of the House have had an opportunity of considering them. In any case I do not propose to discuss them as I am not responsible for the words, but to invite His Majesty's Government to explain the meaning of the alterations in the Amendment as it is now on the Paper.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, I understand that the actual wording has been the subject of general negotiation and that there is reason to suppose that the words as they now stand will meet with general approval. But I think in a case like this we may not unfairly ask the members of the Select Committee who considered this Bill whether, having seen the words which are now suggested by His Majesty's Government, they think that they fairly meet the objections which were taken by the Select Committee. I see present more than one noble Lord who was on the Committee by whom this Bill was considered, and I am sure your Lordships would wish in a case, like this to be guided by their opinion and also by the
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opinion of the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees. I understand that the present wording covers all that it is necessary should be taken into consideration, and that the circumstances which the Postmaster-General is to take into account are those which affect actual economy in money.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): The noble Earl has accurately stated the position in which we find ourselves. There have been discussions during the last hour with regard to the drafting of subsection (6) as it now stands on the Paper, which I have no doubt is intended to carry out the undertaking which was made yesterday. The first point on which discussion has focussed has been the words, "The Postmaster-General shall invite tenders for the supply of electrical energy for the railway." Your Lordships will, of course, realise that the decision of the Committee went further than the supply of the electrical energy for the railway alone. The clause covered the supply of electricity for other purposes. I am informed that the only new supply that would result from this Bill if passed in this form, in addition to the railway would be that to five post offices, and that those five post offices could only be reached by the Post Office themselves through this railway, and therefore it is practically certain that whoever supplied the electrical energy for the railway would have to supply these post offices unless they continued to be supplied by outside companies. The word "railway" is defined in a very wide manner at the end of the Bill, and I have no doubt that the words as drafted would be as wide as is desirable.
But as to the other words "taking all the circumstances into account" I confess I feel some difficulty in being satisfied with their inclusion in the subsection. The words are "and if he is satisfied that, taking all the circumstances into account, an appreciable saving would result to the Post Office." If it were quite certain that the circumstances were merely circumstances of saving, I should be satisfied; but I feel there is danger under the present drafting that the circumstances might be circumstances of general policy. It might be sufficient for the Postmaster-General to say to himself "It is my settled policy, and I believe it to be desirable that all the

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electrical supply should be in My hands." I do not believe that this is tile intention of the Postmaster-General now, but I am afraid that under the actual words of the proposed new subsection (6) might find himself in that position, and I do not think it is a desirable position in which to put him in view of what is now happening. I should myself have liked it best if those six words had not been included in the subsection, unless they could be altered and it could be made clear in that alteration exactly what is in the mind of the Post Office. But, of course, I am subject to the guidance of what your Lordships desire in the matter.
LORD WELBY: I am in rather a difficulty as I have only just seen these amending words; but after the manner in which the case of the Post Office was put before the Committee I think that anything which limits rather than extends the powers of the Post Office is desirable. I am extremely anxious that effect should be given to this proposal in a sense that will make it obvious that the Postmaster-General has to establish the economy of the plan which he proposes, and with that view I support the Lord Chairman in thinking that the words which he suggested should be struck out should be deleted. There is a very great difference between a private undertaking and a public undertaking. The private undertaker is brought to book at the end of a year by a profit and loss account. The public undertaker is subject to no such test. Therefore it is the obvious duty of Parliament to insist, in the case of any undertaking by which a Government Department becomes the manufacturer, that the plan as put forward by the Department should be an economical one. I, for one, was not satisfied from the evidence put before the Committee that that was the case. On the whole I prefer that the Bill should stand in the shape in which we passed it. But in view of what has been said I am perfectly content to agree to the Amendment if the words referred to by the Lord Chairman are omitted.
LORD GORELL: I had an opportunity of discussing the matter yesterday with my noble friend Lord Newton, the Chairman of the Select Committee by whom this Bill was considered, and who is unable to be here to-day. So far as the general principle is concerned he and I concur.
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We are prepared to accept the course now proposed, since it entirely vindicates the action taken by the Committee of which we were members. With regard to the words in question, I also agree with the Lord Chairman and with the noble Lord who has just spoken that it is desirable that they should be omitted. The impression conveyed to me was that the only question which had been considered by the Post Office was whether by this scheme a Departmental saving would be effected, and I am afraid that if these words are included that consideration will be given undue weight. That is to say, there may not really be given adequate consideration to whether there would be a real saving, but weight would probably be given to the fact that if the Post Office undertaking is given this added load it would effect some saving on the present basis. For that reason I venture to think it would be desirable to eliminate words which might lend themselves to allowing such considerations to arise. It should be laid down that there must be a definite actual saving by obtaining the supply from the Post Office generating stations rather than from companies or others.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): I must apologise to the House for not having been here when this discussion began, but I was detained elsewhere on business which I found it impossible to leave until the moment that I did. I am glad to find that this proposed new subsection meets in its general bearing the objections which were raised by various noble Lords to the clause as it stood, and I hope it may be assumed, therefore, that the House will agree to its insertion. As regards the question of the particular words, the matter is not one of the first importance, although I have no doubt that the Post Office would prefer that the subsection should remain in the form in which I have it here, on the ground that the terms are such as would ordinarily be inserted in a clause of this kind where, for instance, a private enterprise was concerned.
The noble Lord on the Cross Benches (Lord Gorell) has drawn a distinction between a Public Department and a private company in a matter of this kind, and, as I understand it, it is desired by him and

1907
by other noble Lords that the Subsection should read thus—
"and if he is satisfied that an appreciable saving would result to the Post Office by taking a supply from any such company or local authority, the Postmaster-General shall do so,"
leaving out the words "taking all the circumstances into account." On that I do not quite follow the argument which the noble Lord on the Cross Benches used, because he, if I understood him rightly, stated that the question was not so much whether the saving was to the Post Office or a saving to the public generally and to the general finances of the country; yet the words "to the Post Office" appear to be unchallenged. Surely it must be the fact that if the saving is to the Post Office it is also to the finances of the country as a whole. What the particular bearing of such a saving may be on the special estimates which the Department may bring forward is a purely domestic matter which concerns the relations of the Department with the Treasury, but the thing that concerns us and the public is what the saving may prove to be as a whole. I confess I do not see that there would be any risk in retaining the words "taking all the circumstances into account"; for this reason. The whole transaction, after the interest which has been aroused by the action of noble Lords upon it, is bound to take place in the public eye. It may be assumed that Question after Question will be asked in another place as to what precisely is occurring, what tenders the Postmaster-General has received, what the amount of those tenders may be, and what the saving thereby would be as compared with the Post Office supply. Therefore I venture to think that what my right hon. friend does or does not take into account in arriving at a conclusion that there is a saving will be fairly well known to the public, and in those circumstances I cannot see any real risk in retaining the words. At the same time I am not disposed to lose the clause for the sake of these words, although I think that the omission of them shows a mistrust of Departmental action which, perhaps, is hardly worthy of your Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I was not in the House when this clause was proposed, but I have had the advantage of reading it since, and I hope that the House will support the Lord Chairman in moving the omission from subsection (6)
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of the words "taking all the circumstances into account." Those words, if they mean anything, mean a whittling down of the clause and leaving it more and more to the entire discretion of the Postmaster-General as to what he will do. Surely without those words quite sufficient is left to the Postmaster-General, because he is to invite tenders and to be satisfied that an appreciable saving would result to the Post Office. I confess that if I had been on the Committee and this clause had been placed before me I should have considered that the clause as drafted, without those words, almost left it to the Postmaster-General to do what he liked. I venture to hope that the noble Earl will insist upon the omission of these words
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: I should like to state, in order to put my attitude clearly before your Lordships, that my fear is that these words, if left in, will apply to things other than savings. That is the reason why I do not like the inclusion of these words.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Surely our object is to make this new clause as unambiguous as possible. What we desire to say to the Postmaster-General is that he is to make the best bargain he can for the public, and he is accordingly desired to satisfy himself that an appreciable saving will result to the Post Office by taking a supply from a company or a local authority. Surely those words by themselves are quite sufficient without the addition of a direction that he is to take all the circumstances into account. The words are apparently harmless enough, but they are open, I think, to this objection, that they really suggest the idea, as the noble Earl the Lord Chairman put it just now, that the Postmaster-General is to look outside the immediate circumstances of the case and to search for other subsidiary considerations which really ought not to weigh at all in the case we have to consider. I think, considering the view expressed by the members of the Committee who are here present to-night and by the Lord Chairman, your Lordships will do well to accept the new subsection (6), leaving out the words "taking all the circumstances into account."
On Question, Amendment agreed to, with the deletion from subsection (6) of the words "taking all the circumstances into account."
Clause 18:
Compensation for damage by working.
18.—(1) In addition to the provisions of the enactments incorporated with this Act with respect to compensation for lands taken or injuriously affected, the Postmaster-General shall make compensation to the owner, lessee, and occupier of any land, house, or building which is injuriously affected by reason of the working of the railway (including the working of lifts and any other works in connection with the railway), notwithstanding that no part of the property of such owner, lessee, or occupier is taken by the Postmaster-General:
Provided that all claims for compensation under this section shall be made within two years from the commencement of the working of the railway, or within two years from the time when any substantial change is made in the weight or size of the rolling stock used on or in the method of the working of that part of the railway where the injurious affection is alleged to have arisen, and all such claims shall be settled by arbitration.
(2) An arbitrator under this section may with the consent of all parties concerned hear together any class or group of claims under this section.
(3) For the purposes or this section the expression "land house or building" shall be deemed to include mains pipes valves plugs syphons and other apparatus of the Metropolitan Water Board and of the Gas Light and Coke Company and any electric lines and apparatus of any company authorised under the Electric Lighting Acts 1882 to 1909 to supply electrical energy within the administrative county of London.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: In the absence of my noble friend Lord Derby I beg to move the Amendment standing in his name, to substitute "five years" for "two years" at the beginning of the proviso to subsection (1). From the conversation which took place the other day your Lordships will be aware what my noble friend's point was, and on his behalf I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 18, page 16, line 9, leave out ("two years") and insert ("five years").—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: This Amendment appears to have been suggested by the noble Earl, Lord Derby, under some misapprehension as to what the intention of the promoters of the railway is. The words as they are in the proviso run—
"Provided that all claims for compensation under this section shall be made within two years from the commencement of the working of the railway."
It seemed as though the noble Earl was under the impression that the commencement of the working of the railway meant
1910
the commencement of the works on the railway. That, of course, is not the case. The two years is from the time when the railway is actually working and in full operation, and it certainly does seem to the Post Office—and I confess I should have thought it was fairly clear to anybody—that two years would be a sufficient period in which to determine whether the actual working of the railway and the running of these curious little trains or trolleys in a tube caused any nuisance to those living in the houses near the route of the line. In these circumstances we are not prepared to accept the Amendment, and I cannot help thinking that were Lord Derby present and could hear the explanation which we have given he would not desire to press his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES: Before the Motion to read the Bill a third time is taken, I would ask your Lordships to make three small Amendments, which I can assure you are practically nothing more, except in one case, than setting right misprints. In page 52, line 4, the words "to prevent effectually" should read "to effectually prevent"; and in page 64, lines 4 and 5, I propose to omit the words "or to be acquired." I understand that that was agreed to in another place, but through a mistake in copying from one Bill to another the words were included in error. Then I have an Amendment in the Fourth Schedule, to substitute the number 26 for the number 25; this number occurs in a series of even numbers, designated as such. I move that these Amendments be agreed to.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Amendments agreed to.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended): Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons: Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 184.)

MENTAL DEFICIENCY AND LUNACY (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, on the Motion to go into Committee it may be convenient if I state that since the discussion on the

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English Bill we have had the opportunity of going very carefully into the Amendments on the Paper to this Bill, and I am glad to say that I have reason to think that we can meet the views of noble Lords opposite completely. There are certain drafting Amendments which I propose to move myself, which are either pure drafting or are necessary to bring the Bill into harmony with what your Lordships have decided should be the case in the English Bill. Then there are certain Amendments to be moved by Lord Camper down which we think are improvements in the Bill. There is another Amendment which Lord Salisbury will move which I shall accept, as it will bring this Bill into harmony with what was done in the case of the English Bill.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.
Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
Clause 3:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendment standing in my name is purely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 16, leave out from ("Act") to the end of the line and insert ("in accordance with the provisions thereof hereinafter contained").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 18, after the second ("or") insert ("at the instance of his parent if, though not an idiot or an imbecile, he").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I accept this Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The Amendments standing in my name are merely to bring this Bill into harmony with the English Bill.
Amendments moved—
Page 3, line 19, leave out ("a") and insert ("the")
Page 3, line 27, leave out from ("offence") to ("liable") in line 29 and insert ("punishable in the case of an adult with penal servitude or imprisonment, or who is ordered or found").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4:
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: This Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 33, after the second ("or") insert ("the parent of a defective who, though not an idiot or an imbecile").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 12, after ("by") insert ("the Board or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This is an Amendment to provide for the case of Perth, which has a lunatic department which is virtually a criminal lunatic asylum.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 32, after ("asylum") insert ("of the criminal lunatic department of a prison").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6 agreed to.
Clause 7:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: There are two Amendments to this clause, standing in my name and also in that of the noble Earl, Lord Camperdown. I am in entire agreement with the noble Earl, and I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Page 7, line 22, after ("relates") insert ("his parents or guardians and")
Page 7, line 23, after ("relates") insert ("or by his parents or guardians").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: These are drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 8, line 11, after ("by") insert ("or on behalf of")
Page 8, line 12, leave out ("interested") and insert ("concerned")
Page 8, line 16, leave out ("interested") and insert ("concerned")
Page 8, line 23, after ("to") insert ("the local authority concerned if any and where practicable to the parent or guardian or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 24, leave out ("and to the local authority interested").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 9:
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 27, after ("punishable") insert ("in the case of an adult").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 10 to 12 agreed to.
Clause 13:
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 25, after ("days") insert ("after receiving the notice").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 6, leave out ("seven days") and insert ("one month's"), and after ("Board") insert ("and to the parent or guardian of the defective, if known").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14:
Amendments moved—
Page 12,line 16, leave out the second ("or") and insert ("and any charges incidental thereto, including the expenses")
Page 12, line 17, leave out from ("funeral") to ("as") in line 18.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15:
Amendments moved—
Page 12, line 35, after ("neglected") insert ("abandoned").
Page 13, line 2, after ("is") insert ("apparently")
Page 13,line 12, alter ("concerned") insert ("but shall, if an order is eventually made, be recoverable from the defective or any person liable to maintain him as if they were part of the expenses of his maintenance").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 16:
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 23, after ("until") insert ("where practicable").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17:
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 25, after ("defective") insert ("and that the institution is one suitable to the case").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 18 to 25 agreed to.
Clause 26:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: These are all drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 20, line 14, leave out from ("sent") to ("and") in line 15.
Page 20, line 16, after ("institutions") insert ("to the extent hereinafter provided")
Page 20, line 27, leave out ("affect") and insert ("derogate from or diminish the powers of school boards under the Education of Defective Children (Scotland) Act, 1906, as read with the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, or")
Page 20, line 35, after ("Provided") insert ("also").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 26, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 27 agreed to.
Clause 28:
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 12, leave out ("criminal").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 28, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 29:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: The object of this Amendment is to provide for two institutions which already exist and are licensed under the Lunacy Act and which have to be brought in here to be made available. I move.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 33, after ("institution") insert the following subsections:
"(2) Any institution for the care and training of imbecile children which at the commencement of this Act is licensed under section seven, of the Lunacy (Scotland) Act, 1862, shall without certification become a certified institution for defectives under this Act unless and in so far as upon the application of the managers it may be certified under this Act as a certified house; and any person who immediately before the commencement of this Act is detained in such an institution may after such commencement continue to be detained therein in like manner and subject to the like conditions as prior to such commencement.
"(3) The managers of an institution (not being a certified institution provided for their district by a district board) shall not be bound to receive any defective whom they have not expressed their willingness to receive"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 30 agreed to.
Clause 31:
Amendments moved—
Page 23, line 29, after ("condition") insert ("and otherwise in respect to them").
Page 24, line 15, after ("guardianship") insert ("or otherwise").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 31, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 32 and 33 agreed to.
Clause 34:
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: These are all drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Page 25, line 14, leave out from ("Where") to ("the") in line 15 am insert ("the finding has been in respect of more than one offence")
Page 25, line 24, after ("asylum") insert ("or department, inebriate reformatory")
Page 25, line 30, leave out from the second ("in") to the second ("reformatory") in line 31 and insert ("a")
Page 25, line 32, leave out from ("foregoing") to ("section") in line 33.
Page 25, line 36, leave out ("inebriate reformatory or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 35 agreed to.
Clause 36:
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 10, after ("allowances") insert ("and gratuities").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 36, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 37 to 39 agreed to.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I desire to move the insertion of a new clause here which I believe the Government are prepared to accept. The object is to bring the Scottish Bill into conformity with the English Bill.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 39, insert as a new clause:
". The nearest adult relative or the guardian of a defective in any institution or under guardianship under this Act shall be entitled to visit the defective at such times, on such conditions, and at such intervals not exceeding six months, as may be prescribed by the Board, unless, in view of his character and antecedents the Board think that his visits would not be in the interests of the defective; provided that nothing herein contained shall be construed as limiting any power to grant further facilities for visits to defectives."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 40 to 43 agreed to.
Clause 44:
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 33, leave out ("manager") and insert ("superintendent").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 44, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 45 and 46 agreed to.
Clause 47:
Amendments moved—
Page 32, line 21, after ("guardianship") insert ("shall")
Page 32, line 23, after ("house") insert ("or to or from guardianship")
Page 32, line 24, after ("house") insert ("or to guardianship")
Page 32, line 25, leave out ("shall for that purpose").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 47, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 48 to 53 agreed to.
Clause 54:
Amendments moved—
Page 34, line 20, at the beginning of the line insert ("Without prejudice to the provisions of section ninety-three of the Act of 1857 or section twelve of the Act of 1866")
Page 34, line 28, after ("shall") insert ("without prejudice as aforesaid").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 54, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 55 to 62 agreed to.
Clause 63:
Amendment moved—
Page 38, line 34, after subsection (3) insert as a new subsection:
"(4) All powers vested in a parish council of recovering monies expended in behalf of a poor person shall extend to the recovery by the parish council of such part of the said monies as is by this Act made payable by the district board."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 63, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 64:
Amendments moved—
Page 38, line 41, after ("Act") insert ("with respect to the assessments for the purposes of the Act of 1857").
Page 39, line 5, leave out ("levied by a parish council acting as a district board") and insert ("leviable under the Acts aforesaid within the parish")
Page 39, line 7, after ("levied") insert ("by the parish council acting as a district board").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 64, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 65 and 66 agreed to.
Clause 67:
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 26, after ("section") insert ("sixty-one and section").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 67, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 68 agreed to.
Clause 69:
Amendment moved—
Page 41, line 12, leave out from ("houses") to ("as").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 69, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 70 to 74 agreed to.
Clause 75:
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 13, after ("means") insert ("the husband or wife or").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 75, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 76:
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 28, after ("offence") insert ("for which no special penalty is provided by this Act").—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 76, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 77:
Amendment moved—
Page 43, line 35, after ("and") insert ("if within thirty sitting days after they have been so laid either House of Parliament presents an address to His Majesty praying that any such regulations may be annulled, His Majesty may, by Order in Council, annul the regulations, without prejudice however to anything done thereunder, and the regulations made under this Act").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 77, as amended, agreed to.
Schedule:
Amendments moved—
Page 45, third column, leave out lines 5 and 6, at beginning of line 8 insert ("section seven"), and leave out from beginning of line 12 to the end of the Schedule.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, as it is very desirable to get this Bill back to the House of Commons as early as possible, perhaps your Lordships would allow the subsequent stages to be dealt with now.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended): Amendments reported: Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons: Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 185.)

APPELLATE JURISDICTION BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendments considered (according to Order).
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, the only Amendments which the other House has made are privilege Amendments. This Bill, which we have been trying for a long time to get through, adds two Law Lords who will be available, not only for the service of this House, but for the service of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. It also makes other facilities for the strengthening of the Privy Council. The Supreme Appellate Tribunal of the Empire will now be in a materially stronger position than before, and I think I can see, if any change is
1920
made in the constitution of this House, how we shall be within easy reach of such rearrangements as will give us a Supreme Tribunal of the Empire really worthy of the tremendous extent of the King's Dominions. The Bill, at all events, has cleared the road for those things; and your Lordships will have a full opportunity of considering them at a later stage, should it be, as I hope it will be, in the power of the Government to snake further proposals on the subject.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I think I have a hereditary right to congratulate the Lord Chancellor on the passing of this Bill.
On Question, Commons Amendments agreed to.
ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
MISDESCRIPTION OF FABRICS BILL.
PUBLIC HEALTH (PREVENTION AND TREATMENT OF DISEASE) BILL.
FOREIGN JURISDICTION BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT (1911) AMENDMENT BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 19, after ("of") insert ("this Part of").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 6 and 7 agreed to.
Clause 8:
LORD STRACHIE: The House will remember that Clause 8 deals with arrears. My Amendment provides a third method of meeting those arrears. In addition to suspension and reduction it also gives power of postponement.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 22, leave out ("suspension or reduction") and insert ("reduction, postponement or suspension").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 23, after ("reduction") insert ("postponement").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, lines 26 and 27, leave out ("suspension and reduction") and insert ("reduction, postponement and suspension").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 9 to 11 agreed to.
Clause 12:
LORD STRACHIE: This Amendment is not on the Paper. It is merely to correct a printer's error.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 10, after ("eight") insert ("of the principal Act").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 13 agreed to.
Clause 14:
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 9, leave out ("of an insured person").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 10, after ("widow") insert ("of an insured person").—(Lord Strachie.)
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Would the noble Lord read the clause as it will now run?
LORD STRACHIE: It now runs, "Where the woman who is an employed contributor is the wife, or if the child is a posthumous child the widow, of an insured person."
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: I wish to thank the Government for the course they have taken with respect to this clause. I know it has been rather a contentious one, but the course they have chosen to adopt in agreeing to the Amendments made from the two sides in the House of Commons has, I think, given general satisfaction.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15:
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 13, leave out ("first proviso") and insert ("proviso (i)").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 16:
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 17, leave out ("for the purposes aforesaid") and insert ("in the exercise of their powers under this proviso").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17:
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 4, after ("amendment") insert ("if").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 18:
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 18, after ("benefits") insert ("and are not special voluntary contributors").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 19:
Amendments moved—
Page 11, line 32, leave out ("their") and insert ("the")
Page 11, line 33, after ("collection") insert ("of such contributions").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 19, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 20 to 22 agreed to.
Clause 23:
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 12, leave out ("such person") and insert ("the master, seaman, or apprentice").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 23, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 24 to 28 agreed to.
Clause 29:
Amendment moved—
Clause 29, page 15, line 17, after ("committee") insert the following new subsection:
"(4) This section shall come into operation on the passing of this Act."—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 30:
Amendment moved—
Page 15, line 22, leave out ("by such name respectively").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 30, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 31 to 33 agreed to.
Clause 34:
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 22, leave out ("exchanges") and insert ("takes in exchange").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 34, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 35 agreed to.
Clause 36:
LORD STRACHIE: As my Amendment stands on the Paper it is, after "Act," to insert "and documents made thereunder." This is merely a drafting Amendment, and I want to alter the word "made" to "issued," so that it will read "and documents issued thereunder."
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 11, after ("Act") insert ("and documents issued thereunder").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 36, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 37 and 38 agreed to.
Clause 39:
LORD STRACHIE: As the clause now stands it only refers to a county council, and the object of the Amendment is to make it refer to a county borough council as well.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 28, after ("council") insert ("or county borough council").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 39, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 40:
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 41, after ("Act") insert ("or this Act").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 41:
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 33, leave out ("the principal") and insert ("this").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 41, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 42 agreed to.
Clause 43:
Amendments moved—
Page 21, line 4, after ("shall") insert ("save as otherwise expressly provided") and leave out ("such") and insert ("the first day of September nineteen hundred and thirteen or such later")
Page 21, line 5, leave out ("Insurance Commissioners") and insert ("Joint Committee")
Page 21, line 13, after subsection (3) insert as a new subsection:
"(4) The provisions of the principal Act mentioned in the Third Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed."—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.
First Schedule:
LORD STRACHIE: These Amendments to the First Schedule are consequential. I take the opportunity of thanking the noble Earl opposite for what he has said as regards this question of maternity benefit.
Amendments moved—
First Schedule, page 23, line 6, leave out from the second ("for") to ("transferred") in line 8, and insert ("continuing the right to payment of maternity benefit out of that fund until the man is")
First Schedule, page 23, line 9, leave out ("until he")
First Schedule, page 23, line 13, after ("sums") insert ("required").—(Lord strachie.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second Schedule agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 42, after the Second Schedule insert as a new schedule:

THIRD SCHEDULE
"Enactments Repeated.
"Subsection (4) of section one.
"Paragraph (a) of subsection (4) of section four.
"In subsection (5) of section eight the words('and at least fifty weekly contributions have been paid by or in respect of him').
"Subsection (3) of section nine.
"Subsection (6) of section ten.
"Proviso (i) of subsection (2) of section twelve.
"Subsection (1) of section eighteen, from ('but if in the case of a midwife being selected') to the end of that subsection.
"Subsection (3) of section forty-five.
"Section forty-nine.
"Table C of Part I of the Fourth Schedule."—(Lord Strachie.)
LORD STRACHIE: I might explain that Table C of Part 1 of the Fourth Schedule only deals with persons between 50 and 60, and the disability having been removed, that Table is no longer necessary.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD STRACHIE: My Lords, may I make an appeal to the House to allow this Bill to go through its subsequent stages now, in order that the Bill with the Amendments, although they are only drafting ones, may go back at the earliest moment to the other House.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended): Amendments reported: Bill read 3a with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons: Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 186.)

HIGHLANDS AND ISLANDS (MEDICAL SERVICE) BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment, and to be read 3a To-morrow.
TELEGRAPH (MONEY) BILL.
PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order): Committee negatived, and Bills to be read 3a To-morrow.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION.
Report from with an Appendix made, and to be printed. (No. 187.)
House adjourned during pleasure; and resumed by the Lord COLEBROOKE.

FINANCE BILL.
Brought from the Commons, endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Privy Seal (M. Crewe)). (No. 188.)
House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock, till To-morrow a quarter past Three o'clock.