Lords Sitting of 30 April 1913

Preamble
The LORD MONTEAGLE (M. sligo)—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
MACCOLL'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to dissolve the marriage of George Edwardes MacColl of Kirkliston Drive, Bloomfield, in the County City of Belfast, in Ireland, Engineer, with Mary MacColl his now wife, and to enable him to marry again, and for other purposes: Presented (on Petition), and a copy of the proceedings in and of the decree of the King's Bench Matrimonial Division of the High Court of Justice in Ireland: Delivered (on Oath): Bill read 1a, and to be read 2a on Monday next: Usual Orders made.
LORD WIMBORNE'S ESTATE BILL. [H.L.]
Judges' Report received: Bill presented, and read 1a.
HALKYN DISTRICT MINES DRAINAGE BILL. [H.L.]
The King's consent signified, and Bill reported, with Amendments.
LONDON ELECTRIC RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
WEST HAMPSHIRE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, without amendment.

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT, 1911.
1. Provisional Regulations made by the Irish Insurance Commissioners and the National Health Insurance Joint Committee acting jointly, as to payment of contributions in the case of certain contributors receiving a low rate of remuneration and as to payment of arrears by deposit contributors.
2. Regulations made by the Scottish Insurance Commissioners under Section 42 (f) of the National Insurance Act, 1911, as to the payment to be made on the death of a deposit contributor out of amount standing to his credit in the Post Office Fund, dated 18th April 1913;
3. Regulations made by the National Health Insurance Joint Committee and the Scottish Insurance Commissioners acting jointly, under the Act as to the contributions to be paid in respect. of outworkers:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and to be printed. (No. 44.)

THE FUTURE OF ALBANIA.
*LORD LAMINGTON*LORD LAMINGTON had the following Questions on the Paper—
To ask what steps His Majesty's Government, in conjunction with other Powers, are taking to secure the future autonomy of Albania.
To ask His Majesty's Government whether they would advocate the appointment of an International Commission for the protection of those Mahomedans who wish to return to or to retain their lands previously situated in the Turkish Empire but now occupied by the Balkan Allies, and for the obtaining of compensation for those refugees who have left their lands but who have retained their title-deeds.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, last February I had a Question down which bore upon the one now appearing on the Notice Paper, but at the request of the Government I did not put it, because the Government represented that it would not be in the public interest that I should do so. I should not have put this Question down for to-day had it not been for the fact that a memorial has been circulated, of which I have no doubt your Lordships have received a copy, inviting the Government to depart from the line of policy which they had arrived at in concert with the other Great Powers of Europe. I am one of those who share the general admiration of Sir Edward Grey in his management of this most difficult and complicated business which now agitates Europe, and I should be the last to desire to add any embarrassment to the Government at such a time. The memorial to which I have alluded, however, contains many misleading statements. I do not wish for a moment to enter into a discussion upon the memorial; but sub-clause (6), for instance, speaks of the "just aspirations of the existing Balkan States." I imagine it is the just aspirations of Albania which influenced the Great Powers in arriving at this determined policy. In the case of Albania you have really the oldest State in all the populations of the Balkans—a people of one language and of one history who, despite religious differences, are united as a nation; and if there is any criticism to be levelled at Sir Edward Grey and the Great Powers in the matter it is that they have restricted the boundaries Of Albania too greatly. The towns of Ipek, Prizrend, Djakova, and other places which are distinctly Albanian in character have been put under Servia. For the sake of peace in the Balkan States it is most essential to have a strong Albania, and to leave considerable portions of the Albanian population outside this new State may not lead to contentment. Further, a strong Albania is essential; otherwise there are
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certainly two Powers in Europe who are directly interested in the affairs of Albania, and unless you have a country able to be self-supporting and which has districts other than mere wild mountain tracts it will be difficult to prevent intrigues being carried on. I think the Great Powers might wisely have extended the frontiers of the new Albanian State. However that may be, it is much better to have even a weak Albania than no Albania at all. Therefore I trust that nothing will be done to deter the Great Powers from carrying out their pronounced policy. There are great risks and most anxious complications, but I imagine that any departure from the avowed policy of the Great Powers would be attended with infinitely greater anxiety than insistence on carrying out the policy which they announced. In saying this one must recognise the great forbearance shown by the Russian Empire in all these difficult negotiations, and the same may be said of Austria. They- have been agreed upon this one policy. It is my anxiety to see this policy carried through, and thereby, as I believe, the peace of Europe maintained, now and in the future.
THE LORD PRESIDENT of THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT MORLEY): My Lords, I am afraid that I must with all courtesy decline to answer either of the Questions of the noble Lord. I do not think the House will need many words from me to convince them that this is no moment at all for this House—or, if I may say so, the other House either, in spite of the round-robins referred to—to discuss such points as he has raised, as, for example, whether it is better to have a weak Albania than no Albania at all. It is admitted that the knot we have to unravel and disentangle is one of the most perplexing that ever confronted diplomatists, and it is impossible, in answer to a Question upon one particular and specific point, to state the view of the Government on what must be a large arrangement. With that in view I cannot help hoping that the House will think the Government are perfectly wise in asking to be excused from saying what particular steps they are taking, in conjunction with the other Powers, to secure the future autonomy of Albania. The stage at which the discussion has arrived is, I may tell the noble Lord frankly, not a stage at which a point of this kind can be effectively discussed with one another—not to-day. There are other issues, well

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known to noble Lords, which must engage the attention of the Powers. In that state of things he asks us, in isolation, to say what steps we are going to take to secure the object which the Powers have in view of constituting a satisfactory and prudently delimited Albania. I submit that it is entirely inexpedient for us to give an answer to a question of that kind; and I do not think anything would have been lost if the noble Lord had not raised the point.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, after the appeal of the noble Viscount opposite I shall refrain from discussing this question myself, although it happens to be one in which I take a personal interest. At the same time I fail to see why we or anybody else should be precluded from pointing out the absurdities contained in the memorial referred to by my noble friend. I will, however, resist upon this occasion the inclination which I feel to expose these absurdities, and will keep silent on the subject. But when the noble Viscount says the moment is inopportune to discuss this question, I should like to ask when we are going to have an opportunity of saying anything on the subject at all. As far as I am aware the House is about to adjourn and not meet again for six weeks. I have shown my good will in the matter by meeting the noble Viscount's wishes, but what I contend is that one does not get an opportunity in this House of expressing one's views at all at any time.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY of STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): My Lords, I merely rise to make one small correction in what fell from the noble Lord who has just sat down. He stated that in his belief there would be no opportunity of discussing any question of foreign affairs for a period of six weeks. I am afraid I cannot venture to hold out either to him or to noble Lords generally the prospect of so long an abstention from business as that which he seemed to consider likely.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I am quite sure the noble Marquess and the noble Viscount will take my assurance that' nothing is further from our thoughts on this side of the House than to utter a single word which may embarrass His Majesty's Government at 'the present time. We quite recognise the extreme difficulty under which His Majesty's
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Government must speak at such a moment I upon foreign affairs, and the great delicacy of the situation with which they have to deal. I noticed just a note of complaint in the speech of the noble Viscount. I do not think that that complaint was deserved. My noble friend did not desire in any way to interfere with the foreign policy of His Majesty's Government; neither do any of us. All we desire to say is to be said in one sentence—that in a matter of this international importance and at such a moment any step which His Majesty's Government think it right to take will receive our cordial support and assistance. That is all we have to say.
LORD LAMINGTON: My next Question is to ask His Majesty's Government whether they would advocate the appointment of an International Commission for the protection of those Mahomedans who wish to return to or to retain their lands previously situated in the Turkish Empire but now occupied by the Balkan Allies, and for the obtaining of compensation for those refugees who have left their lands but who have retained their title-deeds. After the intimation of the noble Viscount that he will be unable to give me an answer, it is rather useless for me to enlarge on this question, but I cannot see why some consideration should not be given to this eminently fair proposal. We know what horrors have been perpetrated and possibly are still going on, and I should have thought that in these days of modern civilisation the most satisfactory way of putting an end to the present state of affairs would be by the appointment of an International Commission. I therefore ask the noble Viscount not to give a blank refusal, but to consider favourably the question of an International Commission, which I believe would give confidence to Mahomedans both in this country and throughout the world.
VISCOUNT MORLEY: I have no intention whatever of expressing any opinion upon the actual proposals indicated in the Question. They may or may not embody a desirable policy, but for us now in isolation, without consultation—free and copious —with the other Powers, to adopt—
LORD LAMINGTON: I ask you to consult with them.
VISCOUNT MORLEY: That is not the point of the Question.
LORD LAMINGTON: It is the point.
VISCOUNT MORLEY: Can the noble Lord dream that we should not be constantly thinking of a question of this kind and taking any opportunity which may offer to ascertain what policy, in connection with these Mahomedans, would be most likely to secure the effective consent and approval of other Powers who are even more interested than we are?

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: It would be for the general convenience if the noble Marquess could intimate what is proposed in regard to the business of the House. I understand there is nothing on the Paper for to-morrow. I do not know whether the noble Marquess proposes that the House should meet to-morrow. Then there is a Notice on the Paper for Monday. Perhaps the noble Marquess would state what he proposes as to the course of business after Monday next.
*THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: There is no business on the Paper for to-morrow, and the noble Marquess will remember that to-morrow is Ascension Day, on which it is not the custom of this House to sit. For Monday next there is a Notice in the name of the noble Viscount, Lord Midleton, but I understand there is no further business down for next week. Supposing that to be the ease and that no other Notices are put down, I would propose, subject to any desire on the part of noble Lords to bring forward any business next week, to adjourn on Monday for the holidays. With the leave of the House I would propose an adjournment to the date which I understand has been fixed for another place—Tuesday, May 27.
LORD NEWTON: I suppose it is not the slightest use my protesting against any arrangement which comes from either of the Front Benches, but I confess it seems to me that most elaborate pains are taken in order to show the world that it is perfectly unnecessary for this House to sit at all. I do not want to speak so much on the general point, but there is a particular point to which I want to draw attention. I am personally aggrieved with regard to this proposal, for this reason. I have a Bill which last session passed through this House without any opposition, and I was extremely anxious to get it through before Whitsuntide so that it could be sent down to the House of Commons. In consequence
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of entreaties received from a noble Lord who is interested in this particular Bill but who finds that he is urgently required at Newmarket this week, I put the Committee stage of the Bill off until Monday next. Now I understand that it is suggested that the House should adjourn on that day, and it would therefore be impossible to get the Bill through before the holidays unless the noble Marquess will make a corrupt bargain with me that if I get the Bill through Committee on Monday he will allow me to take the remaining stages on the same day. If so, of course I shall offer no objection; but it seems to me that under the plea of sanctimoniousness, or one thing or another, we are not to sit to-morrow because it is Ascension Day, although Committees sit and the House of Commons sit. This seems to me to be only an ingenious excuse for unmitigated sloth on the part of the Leaders of this House. I do not profess to be of an industrious disposition myself, but at the same time I confess that it strikes me that any complaint we may make in the future with regard to the way in which we are treated by the other House will come with very bad grace from us if we make it appear that we wish to avoid coining here on every opportunity.
*THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: If the noble Lord should be successful in getting his Bill through Committee on Monday and then wishes to suspend the Standing Order so as to get it through the remaining stages I personally should have no objection, supposing this to be the wish of the House generally. Failing that, I have no doubt the House would meet again in the course of next week to take the Bill through its remaining stages. As regards the general complaint made by the noble Lord, I think it is rather premature at this time of year to complain of the lack of business which has come to us from another place. If the noble Lord will cast his recollection back I think he will agree that at this time of the year it is not often that measures of importance reach this House from another place. Therefore I hope the noble Lord will postpone making a complaint of the lack of business which we have to do until some later period in the session if he should then find it necessary, but it may not be necessary.
House adjourned at Five minutes before Five o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.