Lords Sitting of 29 April 1913

Preamble
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:

Richmond (Surrey) Electricity Supply [H.L.]

The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied within respect of a Petition for a Bill by the

Silloth Gas Company

ought to be dispensed with:
And that the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of a Petition for a Bill by the

Manchester Ship Canal Company

ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to introduce the Bill:
Read, and agreed to.

PAGE ESTATES BILL. [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): It may be for your Lordships' convenience that I should inform the House, with reference to a Bill that is on the Paper for to-morrow, the Page Estates Bill, about which there was some discussion a fortnight ago, that within the last few minutes the Bill has been withdrawn by the promoters, and therefore your Lordships will not be further troubled with it this session.
The Order for the Second Reading To-morrow, discharged: Ordered that the Bill be not further proceeded with.

MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL. [H.L.]
Presented (pursuant to leave given this day), read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
CAMBRIAN RAILWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
READING CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
PORTHCAWL AND DISTRICT GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
Committee to meet on Thursday next.

LLANTRISANT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The Orders made on the 17th of March last and 14th instant discharged, and Bill committed for Thursday next.

IPSWICH DOCK BILL. [H.L.]
EBBW VALE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
The Orders made on the 17th of March last, appointing certain Lords the Select Committees to consider the Bills, discharged.

BRIGHTON CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
The Order made on the 8th of April last, appointing certain Lords the Select Committee to consider the Bill, discharged.
GRAYS AND TILBURY GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.

METROPOLITAN DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
OXFORD UNIVERSITY (ST. EDMUND HALL AND GATCOMBE RECTORY) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.

ARIGNA VALLEY RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a(according to Order), and committed; The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
HARROW AND STANMORE GAS BILL.
Read 2a, and committed for Thursday next.

RICHMOND (SURREY) ELECTRICITY SUPPLY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
REDCAR, COATHAM, MARSKE AND SALTBURN GAS BILL. [H.L.]
SWANSEA HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
IPSWICH DOCK BILL. [H.L.]
EBBW VALE WATER BILL. [H.L.]
BRIGHTON CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; (viz.),

E. Verulam,

L. Camoys,

L. Wynford,

L. Kintore (E. Kintore) (Chairman),

L. Monkswell;

agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Thursday next, at a quarter past Eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to he heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.

EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON No. 4) BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Board of Education under the Education Acts, 1870 to 1911, to enable the London County Council to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts—Was presented by the Earl Beauchamp; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 37.)
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.] (No. 38.)
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Kibworth Gas, Midsomer Norton Gas, Redditch Gas, and West Staffordshire Gas: And

GAS AND WATER ORDERS CONFIRMA TION (No. 1) BILL. [H.L.] (No. 39.)
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Bagnalstown Gas, Dronfield Gas, Alresford Water and Borough of Portsmouth Water
—Were presented by the Lord Granard (E. Granard); read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 2) BILL.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
Read 2a(according to Order), and committed.

CHILDREN (EMPLOYMENT ABROAD) BILL. [H.L.]
Moved, That the Report of Amendment be now received.—(Lord Strachie.)
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD STRACHIE): Before this Motion is put I desire to assure my noble friend behind me (Lord Sheffield) and the noble Marquess on the Front Opposition Bench (Lord Salisbury), in reply to the questions which they put to me the other day when this Bill was in Committee, that the Home Office will undertake that in all cases the Metropolitan Police shall notify to the local education authority the names and addresses of the applicants for licences under this Bill. While the Home Office has a right to give orders to the Metropolitan Police it has no right to give instructions to the Provincial Police, but in this case the Home Office will also request the Provincial Police, both borough and county, to give similar notices to their local education authorities, and we know from experience that all requests from the Home Office are gladly complied with as far as possible by the Police forces throughout the country. I was also asked, when the retrospective Clause 3 was, deleted in Committee on the Motion of the noble Marquess opposite, to consider whether it was desirable to do anything further in that matter. I am able to inform the noble Marquess that Mr. McKenna has decided that there is no need to reintroduce the retrospective clause into this Bill.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I understand that the engagement into which the noble Lord enters on behalf of the Home Office is one of those Parliamentary engagements of which we appreciate the full value—that is to say, that upon a case of this kind happening the Home Office will instruct the Metropolitan Police to
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communicate with the local education authority in London, and will address a letter to the local Police forces asking them to do the same thing in the case of their education authority. I am quite aware that the Home Office is not empowered to give orders to the local Police, but it is a common practice, happening almost every day, that a letter of advice does proceed from the Home Office to the local Police, and inasmuch as the Home Office is largely the paymaster of the local Police these letters of advice are fairly effective. Therefore if I understand that the noble Lord in giving this engagement speaks on behalf of the Home Office, I am quite satisfied.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Clause 2:
Grant of licences.
2.—(1) A police magistrate may grant a licence in such form as the Secretary of State may prescribe, and subject to such restrictions and conditions as the police magistrate thinks fit, for any young person to go out of the United Kingdom for the purpose of singing, playing, performing, or being exhibited for profit, but no such licence shall be granted unless the police magistrate is satisfied—

(a) that the application for the licence is made by or with the consent of the parent or guardian of the young person;

(b) that the young person is going out of the United Kingdom in order to fulfil a particular engagement;

(c) that the young person is fit for the purpose;

(d) that proper provision has been made to secure the health, kind treatment, and adequate supervision of the young person whilst abroad and his return to the United Kingdom at the expiration or revocation of the licence;

(e) that a copy of the contract of employment or other document, showing the terms and conditions of employment, drawn up in a language understood by the young person, has been furnished to the young person.

(2) A licence under this section shall not be granted for more than three months, but may be renewed by a police magistrate from time to time for a like period, but no such renewal shall be granted unless the police magistrate is satisfied by a report of a British consular officer or other trustworthy person that the conditions of the licence are being complied with.
(3) Where a person applies for a licence or the renewal of a licence under this section he shall at least seven days before making the application give notice thereof to the chief officer of the police for the district in which the young person resides or resided, and that officer may make a report in writing on the case to the police magistrate, or may appear or instruct some person to appear before

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the police magistrate hearing the application and show cause why the licence should not be granted or renewed, and the police magistrate shall not grant or renew the licence unless he is satisfied that notice has been properly so given.
(4) The police magistrate to whom application is made for the grant or renewal of a licence under this section shall, unless he is satisfied that under the circumstances it is unnecessary, require the applicant to give such security, either by entering into a recognisance with or without sureties or otherwise, as he may think lit for the observance of the restrictions and conditions contained in the licence, and the recognisance may he enforced in like manner as a recognisance for the doing of some matter or thing required to be done in a proceeding before a court of summary jurisdiction is enforceable.
(5) In any proceeding for enforcing a recognisance under this section, a report of any British consular officer, and any deposition made on oath before a British consular officer and authenticated by the signature of that officer respecting the observance or non-observance of any of the conditions or restrictions contained in a licence granted under this Act, shall, upon proof that the consular officer or deponent cannot be found in the United Kingdom, be admissible in evidence; and it shall not be necessary to prove the signature or official character of the person appearing to have signed any such report or deposition.
(6) Where a licence is granted under this section, the police magistrate shall send to the Secretary of State for transmission to the proper consular officer such particulars as the Secretary of State may by regulation prescribe, and every consular officer shall register the particulars so transmitted to him and perform such other duties in relation thereto as the Secretary of State may direct.
(7) A licence granted under this section may be revoked by the police magistrate at any time if ho is satisfied that any of the conditions on which the licence was granted are not being complied with.
LORD SHEFFIELD: I understood, in Committee, that the Government were prepared to extend the right of being heard to all local authorities throughout the country, and I therefore expected to see on the Paper to-day an Amendment in the name of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill giving effect to that. But the Government merely give us an assurance that in the metropolitan district orders will be given to the Police, and that outside the metropolitan district a strong suggestion will be made to the Police to let the local authorities be heard. It must be remembered that hitherto in all these cases of employment of young people the right of being heard has been secured by Statute to the local education authority, and I think it is undesirable in this case that the local education authority should not have the same statutory right. I do not press for the substitution of the local
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education authority for the Police, but I beg to move, after the words ill subsection (3) "Where a person applies for a licence or the renewal of a licence under this section he shall at least seven days before making the application give notice thereof to the chief officer of the Police," to add the words "and to the local education authority"; and as a consequential Amendment should the first one be carried I shall move, after the words "that officer" two lines further down, to add the words "and the representative of the local education authority." I take it that the intention of the Government is that information should be given to the local education authority in order that they may appear and produce evidence. The tendency of recent legislation for young people has been to entrust to the local education authorities great responsibility for the welfare of these young people during the time when they are passing into the adult stage, and therefore I think it is well to provide in the Bill itself that notice shall concurrently be given to the local education authority; otherwise, the interval between applying for a licence and the hearing not being a long one, the Police may communicate with the local education authority too late for the latter to make inquiries.
Amendment moved—
Clause 2, page 2, line 31, after the word ("police"), insert ("and to the local education authority").—(Lord Sheffield.)
LORD STRACHIE: I think my noble friend might have given me private notice that he intended to move this Amendment. In the circumstances I have had no time at all to consider it. But it seems to me that it is liable to some of the objections which I stated the other clay when I mentioned that we did not wish to mix up this question, which is to a large extent a Police question, with the educational one. I would remind my noble friend that local education authorities have no jurisdiction over these young persons. If it were a question of children, there might then be a good deal to be said for introducing the local education authority in the way the noble Lord proposes; but there, again, I should object to mixing up the local education authority with the Police. I am afraid I must resist the Amendment.
LORD SHEFFIELD: I am quite willing that the Amendment should stand over until the Third Reading. But I think I was entitled to assume, after the assurance given by the Government, that they would have put down an Amendment on the Paper for today. I am, as I have stated, quite willing to postpone my Amendment, and I hope that in the meantime the noble Lord in charge of the Bill will make himself more acquainted than he now appears to be with recent legislation concerning young persons.
LORD STRACHIE: I have clone to-day all that I undertook to do, and that was to give an undertaking that the local education authority should receive notice in these cases. I never undertook that there should be an Amendment inserted in the Bill to that effect. It is much better that notices should be sent to the Police by the Home Office in the way I have explained.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD STRACHIE: The object of adding at the end of subsection (3) the words in the Amendment standing in my name is to make provision whereby the chief officer of Police, the Police magistrate, and the Home Office shall all be informed of the conditions of employment of these young persons. I think the House will see how desirable it is that the conditions of employment should be clearly set out, and should be understood by the chief officer of Police and by the Police magistrate, who will decide whether or not the licence should be given; and also that the Home Office should have the terms before them in order that they can forward them to the Consuls abroad where the children are employed so that the Consuls may be aware of the conditions of employment and may be able to take action should those conditions be broken in any respect.
Amendment moved—
Clause 2, page 2, line 37, after ("given") insert ("The notice given by the applicant shall be accompanied by a copy of the contract of employment or other document showing the terms and conditions of employment, which copy shall be sent by the chief officer of police to the police magistrate").—(Lord Strachie.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill to be read 3a on Monday next, and to be printed as amended. (No. 40.)

SOLICITORS BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Earl Loreburn.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clause 2:
Commencement of Act.
2. This Act shall come into operation on the day of, 19, which date is in this Act referred to as the commencement of this Act.
EARL LOREBURN: The only alteration required to be made is that a date shall be inserted for the Act to come into operation, and I propose six months hence—namely, November 1, 1913.
Amendment moved—
To insert the words "first day of November, 1913."—(Earl Loreburn.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
The Report of Amendments to be received on Monday next, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 41.)

NAVAL AND MILITARY AVIATION.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether a Return can be laid upon the Table of the House showing the number of (1) dirigibles, (2) aeroplanes, (3) hydro-aeroplanes now possessed by the chief countries of the world, and the amount of expenditure for military or naval aviation proposed during the year from 1st May, 1913.
The noble Lord said: My Lords it is now some time since we had a discussion in this House on this question, and I think I am justified in bringing before you the progress that has since taken place in aviation and the necessity there is for our

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taking careful note of what the other Powers are doing and preparing ourselves for any emergency. Wonderful progress has been made in aviation during the last two years, and we cannot afford to ignore the developments that have taken place. It might have been said—in fact it was said—in the early days by many persons well qualified to judge that it would be many years before, either from the point of view of the Admiralty or of the War Office, it would be necessary to take cognisance of what was being done; but I venture to say that the very large, and in many cases very efficient, aerial armaments of foreign Powers make it imperative that the Government of this country should consider the question as it now stands, and also as it is likely to be in the near future.
I should like to make it quite plain at the outset that in calling attention to this matter I do so in no Party spirit. Some remarks which I made a few days ago were taken as an attack on the War Office, and to some extent, possibly, on the Admiralty, with regard to certain figures and facts which they had put before us. That, however, was not my intention. My desire was merely to call public attention to the importance of studying these matters, and the figures which I gave, and which I was only too glad afterwards to correct owing to information afforded by the Secretary of State and his advisers, were supplied to me by an informant who until then I thought was a very safe source of information.
To-day I invite your Lordships to consider some of the new problems which have arisen since we last had a debate on this subject. We have now to consider what are the chances of sky power being used in the next war. I prefer the term "sky power" to that of air power because it is a more appropriate term. We do not talk, for instance, of water power but of sea power, and I think it would be convenient if in future it became our custom to talk, not of air power, but of sky power. We have now got to the stage in which we have not only to look upon both dirigibles and aeroplanes as a means of scouting, whereby very valuable intelligence can be conveyed to the commander of a fleet or an army, but we have also to consider whet her they are not in themselves becoming formidable as a means of offence.
I quite agree that for many years to come probably the chief value of both dirigibles and aeroplanes will be from the point of view of scouting. It will be possible on land for a skilled pilot to ascertain the dispositions of an enemy's army. It will be possible for him by day in a fog or in rain or in a cloud, and by night under cover of darkness, to approach quite close to the headquarters of the enemy, and in some cases, with a little knowledge of the country over which he is passing, to locate more or less the disposition of the enemy's forces. But there is an even more serious problem when we come to naval operations. It will be possible for any Power with a powerful fleet to send in front of that fleet dirigibles, and to a certain extent aeroplanes and hydro-aeroplanes, for the purpose of finding out whether they are nearing the enemy's fleet or for finding out the disposition of the enemy's fleet, and whether it consists of battleships, cruisers, or whatever it may be. Any Power which had a sea-board between the Bay of Biscay and the Baltic could ascertain within a few hours where the British Fleet was lying, whether it was at Dover, at Spithead, or iii the North Sea, or wherever it might be; and that danger has become a greater one since dirigibles are able to stay in the air a much longer time now than formerly, and attain a speed of anything between forty and fifty miles an hour, a speed which before long, in my opinion, will be exceeded. That has made them a most valuable agency for scouting, and we must look upon that as being a serious menace to our sea power.
Before long not only will both dirigibles and aeroplanes be used for intelligence work, but possibly for purposes of offence. I do not know whether your Lordships are aware that some of these large dirigibles can take up weights up to ten tons, and it is obvious that if only five tons el explosives were dropped at inconvenient places it would produce a state of dismay and a scene of ruin which could hardly be paralleled by any artillery work. That is a new and a serious problem which we have to consider. To civilised life nerves are as important as muscles. Our complicated civilised life is dependent upon the smooth and automatic working of transport or means of communication, banks, the Stock Exchange, telegraphs and telephones, the distribution of food, and so on, and if those were to be interfered with you would have

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a state of panic and you might have a condition of things in which a revolution, a social uprising, would take place which would be difficult to quell, and which would add to the horrors of war. An inland town like Birmingham or Leicester is just as vulnerable now as is London or Portsmouth. The fact is that with the great range of dirigibles nowadays there is no town in this comparatively small island of England, there is no place in your manufacturing districts, which could be considered safe, and which would not be liable to serious damage from explosives dropped from above; whilst the amount of damage that might be done in the case of our arsenals would be of the most serious description.
I do not wish to exaggerate the possibilities, but I submit that these are problems which ought to be very carefully considered both by the War Staff at the Admiralty and by the General Staff at the War Office, They must obviously at the present moment be largely matters of conjecture, but we are on the eve of treat developments in this direction and should not lag behind our rivals on the Continent, with whom we may be on friendly terms to-day but with whom we may find ourselves in contact at some future date. Then we have to consider the terrible state of panic to which the average citizen would be reduced if be thought that danger might come out of the sky. Human beings have been accustomed for centuries to fighting by land or by sea. Attacks from the sky would be a new and dreadful form of war, and no one knows what would be the effect upon large masses of our population of the arrival of a fleet of dirigibles carrying bombs. Therefore this is a danger which it is no use trying to blink. One of the results would be the shattering to a large extent of the nerves of our population. It would be like the case of a man whose nerves had been out of order although his muscles had not been affected. I can quite imagine a case in which the Navy would still be more or less supreme at sea and in which the Army on land was quite ready to meet any invader, yet with more or less undefeated naval and military forces you might have invasion by a very large number of dirigibles which would, by its very irritation and the panic to which it would give rise, do more to shake the country than a definite momentary defeat by sea or land. That is a point which I
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am sure will be considered by the War Office and the Admiralty and also by the Committee of Imperial Defence.
It is said by those who wish to minimise the danger that we have a few good guns which can shoot vertically, and which would be able to bring down dirigibles from the sky in the same way as noble Lords are able to bring down pheasants over trees. It may be possible that sooner or later we shall have some form of shell bursting in the air at a considerable altitude which could make a serious attack on dirigibles and aeroplanes, but that is some way off, and if the information is correct which I get from France and Germany, where a great deal of special attention has been given to guns versus dirigibles, it is only for very local and partial purposes that we can reckon on artillery to combat dirigibles or aeroplanes. I do not deny that we might have the great dockyards and certain other areas covered by special guns. It is conceivable that we might protect the locality of the Government offices at Westminster and the great arsenals in the same way, but it would be impossible to count on artillery as an entire means of defence against anything that might come through the air.
There is only one proper way of meeting this new situation. We must meet like with like. If there is danger in the future of our being invaded by dirigibles or aeroplanes, we must have an adequate number of both kinds of aircraft in order to defend ourselves. It is possible that by means of dirigibles and aeroplanes the movements of our Fleet may be reported from various points to foreign Powers and its utility thereby to a large extent neutralised. It is important, therefore, that we should have an adequate number of these aircraft to be able to detect the movements of foreign fleets. There are other points of danger worthy of consideration. There are, as noble Lords know, at the mouth of the Thames depots for oil, petrol, and similar dangerous products, which if once exploded might come up the Thames on a flood tide, setting fire to all the warehouses on the river. There are other depots containing gunpowder where the contingency would be likewise serious.
I know it may be said that criticism without suggestions is a barren method of controversy. Therefore I am going to be

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bold enough to submit some suggestions for the consideration of the War Office and the Admiralty. I think we must all admit, especially in the matter of dirigibles but also in the matter of aeroplanes, that we are greatly behind every other first-class Power. Whether that is a disadvantage which can be rapidly remedied I am not prepared to say at the moment. I am inclined to think it can be to a large extent. But just as we were behind in the early days with regard to motor-cars we are behind in a similar way now. As a nation we are deficient in imagination, and inclined to be too complacent. The result is that we do not often take up new movements or study new subjects until other people have got well ahead of us. In regard to this question of aerial invasion or sky power, given trained pilots it would not take us very long to build an adequate sky fleet; and, from the money point. of view, we can get 2,400 aeroplanes for the cost of one super-Dreadnought, and you could get a very great number of dirigibles for the same money; so that even if we urge on the Government, as some of us do, that a sum greater than the£500,000 which has been promised should be spent this year, we are not asking for innumerable millions. I agree that it would not be wise to spend a great deal of money and commit ourselves to the present type of dirigible or aeroplane, which is largely experimental.
But what is important is that we should train men for the three services—hydro-aeroplanes, aeroplanes, and dirigibles—so that in course of time we should get a number of trained men who would be invaluable in case of war. At the present moment we have three dirigibles belonging to the War Office and I am told one belonging to the Admiralty; and the War Office up to a few days ago, I think, could claim somewhere between 110 and 120 aeroplanes. The Admiralty have, I believe, or will have before July 1, seventy-five Hydro-aeroplanes. From that you must deduct the number of inefficients, which you can never put at less than '25 per cent., for always about a quarter of your aeroplanes and hydro-aeroplanes will be out of service. Even in the case of one of the best-known engines, after six or seven hours running the engine has to be stopped and cleaned, so that your aeroplanes must come into dock very often and a deduction must be made from the
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active list of 25 per cent. I admit that the same percentage must he deducted from the foreign figures as well. The question of pilots is a more serious one than the actual number of aeroplanes. Housing, transport, and pilots are, in my opinion, as important as, if not more important than, the actual number of aeroplanes If you are going to have an efficient sky force you must have at least a margin of 50 per cent. of pilots. I am sure the House has noticed with regret that there have been no fewer than two deaths within a week of to-day in the Royal Plying Corps. We cannot pay too great a tribute of admiration to those who, for the national honour and with the pluck which has always distinguished young Englishmen, persevere in this new science, and we hope that in the future a safer kind of machine will be invented.
The question of pilots is, as I have said, one of the difficulties which we have to face, and it is not easy to see how we are going to obtain more. I think that better financial terms might be given them, and I suggest that something in the nature of the French system might be considered. Under the French system not only do officers and men who engage in this work receive special pay, but in addition they have a gratuity for the number of hours they are in the air and the work actually done. This amounts to a considerable sum in many cases, and constitutes a great inducement to men who have to consider the financial side. Another most important addition would be in the direction of training schools, of which I do not think we have half enough. The chief Army one on Salisbury Plain has means of training for thirty pilots at the same moment, and they have to go through a three months course. It is obvious, therefore, that you can only train there 120 pilots a year—a ridiculous number if you are thinking of having 700 aeroplanes. We want a great many stations in different parts of the country so that there will be air men in every district who will be thoroughly familiar with that particular part of England.
Before I pass on may I pay a tribute to the Admiralty, who have been on the whole a great deal more energetic than the War Office, and I believe that, the new stations which they have established at

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different points on the coast for their hydro-aeroplane service will be most useful. I press upon the Government very earnestly the necessity of having more aeroplane stations, and of making arrangements for the training of more pilots. Besides that we want a great many more hangars and more housing accommodation. Supposing the Government were to order a couple of hundred more aeroplanes to-morrow they would have to put up housing accommodation. I do not think they have half enough housing accommodation at the present moment. Again, they have very little means of transport. Perhaps some noble Lords have seen aeroplanes being towed down a road by a motor-car. There ought to be arrangements made for proper movable transport capable of going along the road at a quick speed. I feel in this matter that the Government have not been energetic enough in taking up this subject of military and naval aviation. It is quite true that public opinion has lagged behind, and to some extent public opinion must be blamed, because it is not so easy to move without having public opinion behind you. But public opinion has become stirred at last, and owing to recent achievements and the various prizes offered by newspapers and others, I think public opinion would be entirely in favour, irrespective of Party, of the Government devoting more attention to this subject.
In regard to the sky fleets of foreign Powers, I have here a few figures which may interest your Lordships. I have done my best to check the figures from private and public sources, and I believe them to be more or less correct. In Germany there are 14 public and 10 private dirigibles, most of them of considerable size, many of them of the well-known Zeppelin type and some of them very up-to-date in machinery. It is difficult to ascertain the number of aeroplanes privately and publicly-owned in Germany, but my information is that there are 423, and I have received recent information that both at Heligoland and on the shores of the Baltic hydro-aeroplane stations are being established by Germany—ten at Heligoland and fifteen on the shores of the Baltic. France has now 20 public and private dirigibles which she could put in service, and 585 aeroplanes—the largest number owned by any foreign Power. I cannot ascertain that she has any hydro-aeroplanes, but I was told at
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Monaco the other day that both at Toulon and at Brest preparations were being made for a considerable number of hydro-aeroplanes. It is difficult to get information in regard to Russia, but it is known that Russia has 12 airships, public and private, and somewhere about 230 aeroplanes, but no hydro-aeroplanes. Austria has 4 public and 2 privately-owned dirigibles, and somewhere about 135 aeroplanes; while smaller countries such as Spain, Italy, Servia, Brazil, and Japan have each of them got both dirigibles and aeroplanes, and are preparing in this year's Estimates for a much larger expenditure. Perhaps a better test than mere numbers are the financial Estimates of foreign Powers. Germany proposes to spend a little Over£7,000,000 in the coming year on dirigibles and aeroplanes; France proposes to spend£1,500,000; Russia,£1,000,000; Great Britain,£501,000; Italy,£450,000; and Japan,£250,000. I only bring forward these figures to show how very seriously this question is being regarded abroad, and the necessity there is for the Government to give this subject their most earnest consideration.
I hope your Lordships realise what has been done quite lately. I saw the other day the design of an airship which I believe to be a perfectly practicable one—the War Office and the Admiralty know about it—and which is better than the Zeppelin or any foreign airship, and I hope it will be tried. Then there are speeds up to 50 miles an hour being attained by airships through still air, an advance of 25 miles an hour since I last spoke on this subject in your Lordships' House. Aeroplanes have attained Li speed of 92 miles an hour, which is about double the greatest speed that had been attained when I was speaking in your Lordships' House two years ago. Only to-day I received news of a non-stop aeroplane flight from Biarritz to Kollum in the north of Holland—937 miles in one flight; and my friend Mr. Hamel has flown from Dover to Cologne—245 miles—in a few hours. These are therefore going out of the realm of mere experiment and becoming practical machines with which we shall have to reckon. We must realise that we are only at the beginning of huge developments in this direction, and His Majesty's Government will be well advised if they give the whole subject, both by land and sea, their most careful and serious consideration.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): The interesting speech to which we have just listened will have reminded many of your Lordships of a similar speech which the noble Lord delivered in this House on a previous occasion dealing with the same subject. His remarks to-day afford one more proof of the fact that we in this Assembly are fortunate enough to possess experts in, I believe, every branch of science and art; and no one who listened to the noble Lord could deny that we have in him one of the great experts of this country on the question of aviation. I find myself, therefore, the more unfortunate in being called upon to reply to him in the absence of my noble friend (Lord Herschell) who generally answers on behalf of the War Office, and who, although better, I am afraid will be unable to attend this House until after the Whitsuntide recess.
I can assure the noble Lord, whose Question was no doubt put on the Paper rather as a peg upon which to hang his interesting speech, that the various points which he has raised shall be duly considered by the War Office. With many of his remarks we should all wish to associate ourselves, especially in the tribute which he paid to those gallant men who are always ready to risk their lives in the air fleet. We have every reason to be proud of the fact that we seem able to discover an unfailing supply of men who are ready to take the risks involved in this most perilous service.
As to the Return for which the noble Lord asked, it appeared to me that he supplied it himself in the course of his remarks. The particulars he gave were probably as good as, if not better than, any which could be supplied by the War Office; for with real and characteristic fullness the noble Lord has gone into all the available sources of information in order to ascertain the state of things in other countries. But I will refer the matter to the War Office, and ask them whether they are able to improve on the noble Lord's figures; and after consulting with them I should be glad if he would allow me to communicate with him again stating what information the War Office possess on the matter.
LORD MONTAGU OF BEAULIEU: I thank the noble Earl for what he has said. I shall be glad to communicate, as I habitually do from time to time, any figures and facts in my possession; but it would be as well if the Government could produce an annual Return to Parliament on this subject. There was one point that I omitted to refer to in the observations which I addressed to your Lordships just now. I hope the noble Earl will look into the question of the remuneration of seamen whose duties consist in helping in these matters. I am informed that, whilst they have had an increase of pay, in some cases the increase is not considered sufficient. Again, I am told that on the part of the skilled mechanics in the Army whose services are necessary in the construction and housing of these very fragile machines there is a great deal of grievance on the ground that their very special work is not adequately remunerated. Perhaps the noble Earl will look into both those questions.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: Certainly they shall be looked into.

THE TERRITORIAL FORCE.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH rose to ask His Majesty's Government—
1. What was the strength of the Territorial Force 071 March 31, 1913.
2. How many recruits joined the Force between March 31, 1912, and March 31, 1913.
3. How many trained men left the Force between those dates, and how many of these joined the Territorial Force Reserve.
4. What is the strength of the Territorial Force Reserve by the latest returns available.
5. What is the number of officers, warrant officers, sergeants, and rank and file registered by Territorial Force Associations under Class II of the National Reserve Regulations as medically fit and willing to join a combatant unit for Home Defence.
6. What was the cost per individual in the Territorial Force for the year ended March 31, 1913.
The noble Earl said: In my first Question I ask what was the strength of the

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Territorial Force on March 31 last. The object of Questions 2, 3, and 4 is to show what proportion of trained men have joined the Territorial Force Reserve. It has been stated—I was very glad to see the statement, and rejoiced in it—that recruiting on the whole has been satisfactory, but it must always be borne in mind that recruits qua recruits are not of any immediate use as a weapon of military service. As to Question No. 5 perhaps I should remind your Lordships that Class II refers to officers, warrant officers, and sergeants under fifty-five years of age, and to rank and file under fifty. Under those Regulations also it is permitted to Territorial Associations to register National Reservists in numbers equal to the difference between the war establishment and the present total strength of the Territorial Force units allotted to the county plus an excess of 25 per cent. on establishments. As to Question No. 6, it was in November last, I think, that I addressed to my noble friend Lord Herschel—who we very much regret is unable to be in his place on account of illness—a Question regarding the cost of the Territorial Force for the year ended March 31, 1912. On that occasion Lord Herschell said the estimated cost for 1911–12 was£3,200,000. We know that the number of men of the Territorial Force who may be reasonably stated to be the most efficient, or certainly the least inefficient. portion of the Force are those men who have done the not very strenuous or exorbitant amount of fifteen days and over in camp; and the number of officers and men who in 1912 were fifteen days and over in camp was approximately 162,000 out of the total Force. The information I ask for is the cost per individual in the Territorial Force for the year ended March 31 last. That, of course, would include a large number of men who, by the figures which were given to me in the autumn, are certainly not efficient soldiers; and I think it is desirable that the country should get some idea as to what is the cost per individual of the Territorial Force.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: The answer to Question No. 1 is that the strength of the Territorial Force on April 1, 1913, amounted to 9,299 officers and 244,510 non-commissioned officers and men. As to Question No. 2, between April 1, 1912, and March 31 last 61,307 recruits and 3,385 men with previous service, amounting to
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64,692 in all, joined the Force. In answer to Question 3 I have to say that there are no statistics to show the number of trained men who left the Force during the period referred to. The total net waste from all causes was 89,355, including 62,309 discharged on termination of engagement. The number who joined the Territorial Force Reserve between April 1, 1912, and March 31 of this year was approximately 500. To Question No. 4 the reply is that the strength of the Territorial Force Reserve on April 1, 1913, amounted to 368 officers and 976 non-commissioned officers and men. As regards the National Reserve, dealt with in the next Question on the Paper, no statistics are available at present, and none will be available until the special returns to be furnished on June 1 are received. In reply to Question No. 6, the estimated cost per head in the Territorial Force is about£12.

POPULAR GUIDES TO MUSEUMS.
*LORD SUDELEY*LORD SUDELEY rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether, in view of the great success which has attended the appointment of "guide demonstrators" and the giving of short popular lectures twice a day at the British Museum, Bloomsbury, and Natural History Museum, South Kensington, they propose to carry out the same plan at the Victoria and Albert Museum, the National Gallery, the Imperial Institute, the Wallace Collection at Hertford House, the London Museum, and the Tower of London; and, if so, how soon this system, now proved by the experience of the past two years to be so much wanted and appreciated by the public when obtained, would be inaugurated at each of these separate institutions; and to move for an Annual Return made up to June 30 in each year from all public museums, including the Tower of London, picture galleries, and botanical gardens in the United Kingdom, whether working under Government or under any county council, municipality, University, or public authority, showing under separate heads—
1. Total number of visitors during the year classified under the heads of Special Students, Schools, and General Public.
2. Whether any, and, if so, what system is adopted for the special instruction and guidance of each of the above classes by means of lecture demonstrations or otherwise.
3. Whether such a system is carried out by specially appointed "guide demonstrators" or by members of the staff, and, if so, whether given free, or if not, at what fees.
4. Whether such lectures or demonstrations have been given in the theatre or room specially set apart, or in the various sections of the galleries or gardens.
5. Remarks and statistics showing attendance at such lectures or demonstrations as may be given.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, before I ask the Government the Question which I have put on the Paper, I will, with your permission, briefly state the present position of this question. There has never been, I believe, any arrangement for an organised system of popular guidance and information in our museums. It has always been the habit to look upon museums as great depositories of vast knowledge, to which students could go and obtain information, but not places in which the ordinary public could gain much pleasure or information. Visitors to museums look first at the guide books and labels and then wander listlessly and aimlessly about, very often without the slightest knowledge that they were passing exhibits of the greatest interest and value, and it bas been obvious that they have desired very much to have somebody to come forward and explain the exhibits to them. It has been calculated that of the number of visitors who go to museums—I am speaking now of museums where there is no popular guidance—at least three-fifths of them when they leave do so with the greatest dissatisfaction and with the feeling that they have obtained very little information.
There is no doubt that of late years great pains have been taken to elaborate the labels and make them as clear as possible, and at the present moment in all the large museums they are exceedingly good. But that is not all that is required. What is wanted is the spoken word to aid and assist in interpreting the labels in an attractive and pleasant manner. The present system is all very well for students, who are able to make out exactly where the exhibits are that the guide books announce, but the ordinary intelligent public want their curiosity aroused in order
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to obtain the information, and that can only be done by a human being. In regard to this subject there are three classes of people for whom we have to care—first, students; secondly, schools; and, thirdly, ordinary visitors, what I may term the intelligent public who possess no special expert information. For students and schools a great deal has been done, although I think more is required; but it is the third class—the intelligent public—that I am specially interested in, and for whose use guide demonstrators are required. There is no doubt that for some time there has been a strong feeling among the large number of taxpayers, the people who have contributed largely to the millions that have been spent in making the great collections and in erecting the large buildings which house them, that they have not been able to get the advantage they ought to derive from these valuable national collections.
Fortunately the position has now been changed. Two years ago the director of the British Museum, Sir Frederick Kenyon, saw that something ought to be done. His trustees determined to make the experiment, feeling confident, contrary to the views of marry wise people, that it would be a success. Accordingly in April, 1911, a guide was appointed, and a year afterwards—in May, 1912—one was appointed for the Natural History Museum. Instead of the experiment being a failure it has been an unqualified success. During the period which has been covered by this system, taking these two museums together, no fewer than 45,000 people have gone round with the guides, and that is a very large number indeed. The plan which is adopted is a very simple one. In the hall of each building a notice is hung up stating what portion of the galleries will be shown on certain days. The guides, both in the British Museum and in the Natural History Museum, take parties round twice a day, at twelve o'clock and three o'clock. The number is nominally twenty-five, but very often that number is greatly exceeded. It is, of course, essential that the guide should be properly selected. The two gentlemen who up to now have been appointed are specially qualified. It is necessary that the guide should have a pleasant manner, that he should have a very good voice, and that he should be able to state plainly and simply profound subjects which are rather difficult to explain.

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Then he must have great tact and discretion, and also the necessary patience to be able to deal with children, who come but who ought not to come, and who I maintain ought to be moved on.
With regard to the British Museum itself, the innovation has done great good. You no longer see lifeless and desolate galleries there, but you find them teeming with visitors taking great interest in the whole thing. The numbers have increased very largely in the last year, and the Return which is just about to be presented to Parliament shows an increase during the last year of no fewer than 31,000 visitors. For three weeks during the year the Museum had to be closed, and it is calculated that 60,000 people were shut out. If, therefore, you add these two figures together you find that the number is about 91,000, which represents an increase of over 10 per cent. of the regular numbers. As showing the interest which has been evinced owing to this new departure, I may mention that a plan was started eight months ago of selling postcards of the different exhibits. During the period which has elapsed no less than 70,000 of these postcards have been sold to people who attended the lectures and were greatly interested in what they had seen. The number of guide books sold has also largely increased—an exceedingly interesting fact.
It is because of the great success of this scheme that I am anxious to ask the Government what they propose to do to help in the extension of the scheme to other museums. First of all, let us look at the position of the Victoria and Albert Museum. That museum is under the Education Department, and therefore it would naturally be thought that that of all others would have been the one where this scheme would have been tried; but up to the present nothing whatever has been done. I am told that the authorities are strongly in favour of adopting this system there, but for some reason or other month after month passes and nothing whatever is done. I see on the opposite side of the House my noble friend Lord Reay, who has been appointed Chairman of the Advisory Committee for this Museum, and I hope he will be able to give us a definite pledge that it will not be long before something is done there.
Sometimes it is said that the difficulty is one of finance. That, no doubt, may be the case. But when you consider the sums which are spent on the maintenance of these museums and the large amount of capital which has been sunk in them it is only right that the taxpayers, the intelligent public of this country, should have some small interest in what has been expended. After all, only some£300 or£400 a year is necessary, and there can be no reason why that small sum should not be forthcoming. But there is another alternative. Why in many of these cases should not a small fee be charged? Provided it is not excessive there can be no reason against it. I will give your Lordships one instance. During the last month the authorities of Kew Gardens, I am glad to say, have adopted this system. There the guide goes round twice a day, but in that case this is supported entirely from fees. I am not in favour of that, but I think a portion of the cost might be borne in fees. I mention Kew Gardens as an instance where fees apparently are being charged with success.
In regard to, the National Gallery so far nothing has been done, though I have reason to believe that the Director, Sir Charles Holroyd, is in favour of the system; but up till now he has been so exceedingly busy that he has not been able to consult the committee or the trustees. Clearly there ought to be a guide at the National Gallery. It is interesting to learn that the National Gallery of Scotland have determined to adopt this plan, and next winter a series of lectures will be given every day. In that case the money has been forthcoming; the Treasury has sanctioned the expenditure and it is in the estimates.
We now come to a very important museum, the Imperial Institute. There undoubtedly a great deal is done as far as their resources can go, and it is of very great benefit to the public. On one afternoon every week a party is taken round the different exhibits, sometimes in the Colonial department and sometimes in the Indian. I can speak from experience that it is exceedingly well done, but unfortunately in that case it is done by members of the staff, and, as we all know, the numbers of the staff are very limited and the men can ill be spared. This is

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really a case in which a guide demonstrator is very much wanted. The amount that is required is very small, and should be readily forthcoming when you remember the enormous benefit that it is to our Empire that the products and everything connected with the Colonies and India should be shown. I am sure the noble Earl who sits on the Cross Benches, Lord Grey, with his great experience of the Colonies, will bear me out that it is a matter of national importance that some system of this sort should be adopted at the Imperial Institute without delay.
The Wallace Collection at Hertford House is a unique and most beautiful collection, but it requires a great deal of information and a great deal of explanation to understand. The noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, who is chairman of the trustees, has most courteously told me that the trustees are in favour of this system being adopted there, but unfortunately, owing to the suffragette trouble, the matter has been delayed. I hope Lord Redesdale will bear me out in this, if he speaks. This is a museum which for the benefit of everybody ought to be made interesting, and visitors should be informed of what they see.
Then I come to the Tower of London, which is replete with historical information. No schoolboy can look at it without; knowing that it is connected with a fund of historical incidents, and the tragic scenes which have been carried through there ought to be fully explained. My noble friend Lord Beauchamp, if he speaks this evening, will, I hope, be able to say that something is going to be done in this direction at the Tower of London. This I do know, that the noble Earl has himself taken immense interest in this question, and if he is able to carry the scheme out in connection with the Tower we shall be much indebted to him.
It is impossible to pass by this subject without mentioning that the present wonderful condition of the Tower of London is really due in great measure to what my noble friend Lord Redesdale did when he was at the Office of Works You all remember that years ago the Tower of London was in a dilapidated condition. Not only that, but it was actually shut out from the river by some great hideous high
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buildings which were used as storehouses, and if that condition of things had been allowed to continue there would have been no question of showing the Tower to the public or anything else. Fortunately when Lord Redesdale was Secretary to the Office of Works he threw a great deal of energy into the matter, and we now have that great national monument, the Tower of London, in very good order, and, as Lord Redesdale so aptly describes it, the "Tragedy in Stone" can now be seen.
In the Provinces there are a number of museums—I believe over 200. In many of these a great deal in the direction I am advocating has been done. I have been in communication with the directors and curators of a great many of these museums, and I find that there exists a very strong feeling among them that the system of popular guidance and lectures is very good and they would like to see it very much extended. If the noble Lord is able to give the Return for which I am asking, it is thought that it will have a great effect in improving the position, that it will create a great deal of emulation amongst these museums, which will vie with each other in this direction. I will only add this, that any one who has watched a group of visitors going round and listening to the able lectures that are given will have seen the great pleasure which has been produced; and I am sure that if you compare the state of things at museums where they have guide demonstrators with the desolate and empty state of the galleries in other museums and the listlessness with which people walk about there, you will be convinced of the importance of this plan of popular guidance and the desirability of extending it as much as possible.
Moved, That there be laid before the House an Annual Return made up to June 30 in each year from all Public Museums, including the Tower of London, Picture Galleries, and Botanical Gardens in the United Kingdom, whether working under Government or under any County Council, Municipality, University, or Public Authority, showing under separate heads—
1. Total number of visitors during the year classified under the heads of Special Students, Schools, and General Public;
2. Whether any, and if so, what system is adopted for the special instruction and guidance of each of above classes by means of lecture demonstrations or otherwise;
3. Whether such a system is carried out by specially appointed "Guide Demonstrators" or by members of the Staff, and if so, whether given free, or if not, at what fees;
4. Whether such lectures or demonstrations have been given in the Theatre or room specially set apart, or in the various sections of the Galleries or Gardens;
5. Remarks and statistics showing attendance at such lectures or demonstrations as may be given.—(Lord Sudeley.)
*LORD ZOUCHE OF HARYNGWORTH: My Lords, I should like to say a word in support of the extension of this system of guide demonstrators. The subject speaks for itself. There is no need to press any arguments beyond those which have been so ably stated by my noble friend who has just sat down. After all, there is not very much use from a popular point of view in the magnificent museums that we have, with their wonderful wealth of interesting objects, unless they are ably and intelligently described to visitors who are athirst for knowledge but have not had a sufficiently liberal education to enable them unaided to understand what they see. This system of guide demonstrators is not a mere idea or mere suggestion; it has been carried into effect for one or two years with, as I understand, the most satisfactory results. It is not as if it was a doubtful project, a mere chimera. It must commend itself to the Government that greater use should be made of the beautiful museums that we have, and it seems to me that the whole scheme is well worthy of the careful consideration of the Government. I therefore hope they will see their way to make a favourable reply to my noble friend.
EARL GREY: My Lords, if I may be permitted to do so, I should like to second the Motion which my noble friend Lord Sudeley has moved. Whatever answer may be given on behalf of His Majesty's Government, I hope the noble Lord will press for this Return, for I think that the Return cannot fail to be of the greatest use. I should like to congratulate the
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noble Lord upon the success that has attended his splendid efforts to popularise our museums and galleries. Lord Sudeley has worked on this subject for some time, and his efforts have been rewarded with success. I hope he will continue to make this subject especially his own, for I feel sure that if he perseveres with the same assiduity that he has shown during the last two years there will hardly be a museum in the whole of the country which will not have its guide demonstrator and its lecturer to explain the exhibits to the casual visitor.
I agree with every word the noble Lord has said. I have seen people in the Victoria and Albert Museum bewildered and dazed and not knowing where to go, notwithstanding the splendid classification of the exhibits and the labels, from which they receive every assistance that can be given except the help of the living tongue to describe the exhibits to them. The noble Lord has drawn attention to the difference that exists between the British Museum and the Victoria and Albert Museum. As a result of these daily lectures the British Museum has been made much more popular than it was before, but at the Victoria and Albert Museum absolutely nothing has been done. In regard to the Imperial Institute, with which the noble Lord was kind enough to associate my name, we all desire that that splendid collection of exhibits should be made the best possible use of. But the noble Lord showed that everything is being done that can be done at the Imperial Institute by the admirable management that is there established. If the Victoria League, for instance, send notice to the manager of the Imperial Institute that they wish to bring a party from the country, then a member of the staff is deputed to take that party round; and if the London County Council desire any of their schools to have the exhibits in the Imperial Institute explained, then again a member of the staff is taken from his ordinary duties to devote himself to this group of visitors. That is very good so far as it goes, but it is hardly a satisfactory position in which to place the Imperial Institute; and I hope that my noble friend Lord Emmott, who is the representative in this House and in the country of the Imperial Institute, will be able to give the House some encouragement to believe that His Majesty' Government will find the very

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small sum required to enable a guide demonstrator to be appointed and thus render it unnecessary for members of the staff to be taken away from their duties. I would venture to suggest to Lord Sudeley that he might possibly amend his Motion and ask under separate heads for as approximately a3 possible the numbers he desires. I do not think it would be possible to give a Return as to the exact numbers for which he asks, and in order that His Majesty's Government should find it easier to give the Return I suggest that he should amend it in the way I have indicated.
LORD REDESDALE: My Lords, as happen to be officially connected with two of the institutions mentioned in my noble friend's Question, perhaps I may be allowed to say that I think in both cases the trustees would offer no objection to any reasonable proposition to carry out my noble friend's views. At the National Gallery there would be certain difficulties, no doubt, on student days, when the galleries are largely taken up by the easels of artists who go there to copy the great masterpieces; but on the other days it would be simply a question of organisation. As regards the Wallace Collection, there are, perhaps, more difficulties in the way there than in the case of any of the other institutions mentioned. The first and foremost difficulty, as it seems to me, would be one that you could only call structural. The galleries are extremely narrow, and when there is anything like a crowd in the place it is very difficult to get a clear fair view of the pictures and other exhibits. The only plan, after giving the matter a great deal of consideration, that we arrived at was this—that if these lectures were to be held regularly at Hertford House it would be necessary to close certain of the galleries for perhaps a quarter of an hour or half an hour at a time to the general public whilst the lecturer was taking round his pupils, if I may so call them. That, no doubt, might be done. As to whether it would be altogether satisfactory to everybody is another question. No doubt there would be some dissentients, some people who would complain of being kept out of their pet gallery at a certain moment whilst others received instruction. But these are matters which could no doubt be got over.
The great difficulty there would be to find a man who would be capable of lecturing on all the various classes of exhibits
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that are shown at Hertford House. There are, in the first place, the various schools of pictures. That would be quite food enough for one expert. There is the vast collection of Sèvres, and very different schools of pottery. There is the valuable collection of snuff boxes, of which there is hardly an equal anywhere. Then there are the miniatures. There is also the splendid collection of European armour selected from three of the greatest collections in Europe; and then there is the collection of Oriental armour, which is not quite of the same calibre but still sufficiently interesting to need an expert to explain it. There are at Hertford House a collection of catalogues of these different things which are really admirable. Personally if I were a stranger coining to London I would rather go round with the catalogues than with a so-called expert who might or might not be a person capable of fully explaining the exhibits. The difficulty of finding a man who would be capable of instructing the public in the merits of the collection at Hertford House would, I venture to say, be almost insuperable.
At the present moment I do not think anything could be done at Hertford House. In the first place, we, the trustees, have no money; we should have to get a grant from the Treasury for the purpose. There is also an unfortunate condition of affairs at Hertford House at present. We have, in consequence of circumstances to which it is perhaps hardly necessary to allude, been forced to put all the porcelain and a great number of the more precious exhibits into rooms which are locked up and not open to the public at all. That was done on the advice of the Chief Commissioner of Police having regard to the artistic tragedies which have taken place at Manchester and elsewhere, and I venture to think that at the present moment it would not be possible to carry out my noble friend's wishes. At the same time I can assure him and my noble friend on the Cross Benches that the trustees are fully alive to the desirability of doing all that it is possible to do to promote the pleasure and the education of the public both at Hertford House and at the National Gallery.
LORD GREVILLE: My Lords, as a member of the Education Committee of the London County Council may I be allowed to support the noble Lord in pressing for this information. The noble Lord who has just sat down has pointed out some

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of the difficulties of obtaining a guide demonstrator who would be able to give full information on each subject in the Wallace Collection, and has referred to the excellence of the catalogues. We on the London County Council have to deal with children, and I am afraid the catalogues would be of no use to them. We endeavour to make use as much as possible of these great institutions for educational purposes, and our difficulty is to have the information imparted to the children in any systematic manner. The teachers who go round with the children naturally do their best, but they cannot be supposed to have very great knowledge of the contents of these museums and galleries, and therefore we should welcome very greatly the presence at these institutions of a guide who could take the children round, even though he might not be able to go in great detail into the various items of the collection. I dare say many noble Lords have heard of the Horniman's Museum. We have there a guide demonstrator for whom I believe the London County Council are responsible, and we have found him of the greatest educational assistance and value. Parties of children go round with this guide, and at any rate we ensure that the information given to them is correct and at the same time systematic. Therefore I welcome most heartily the Motion of the noble Lord asking for tins information, and I hope that it will be granted as far as possible.
LORD REAY: My Lords, I wish to answer the question put to me by the noble Lord opposite. I can assure him that the Advisory Committee of the Victoria and Albert Museum are carefully considering the matter, and that they are fully alive to its importance. I cannot say more. But I hope that very soon results will follow which will be in accordance with the wishes of the noble Lord who has raised this question to-day.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, it is quite evident from this discussion that there is very general sympathy with the desire of the noble Lord opposite to extend the system of guide demonstrators, especially in so far as it will promote a more intelligent use of the magnificent collections that we have in London. I have consulted the various bodies in London with regard to the Question which the noble Lord originally put on the Paper, but I am afraid I have been unable to consult with
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them or the other authorities with regard to the more extended Motion which he has placed on the Paper within the last day or two. From those of whom I have made inquiries the replies have been generally sympathetic, but they all take the opportunity of demanding an increased grant from the Treasury. That, however, is not unexpected. It is with some difficulty that I reply to the noble Lord because I am directly responsible for only one of the institutions mentioned in his Question, and I am sorry to say that that is the one on behalf of which I have to give what he will consider the least satisfactory answer of all—I refer to the Tower of London.
The noble Lord asks that there should be a distinction made between special students, schools, and the general public. I am not sure that that will be an easy distinction to make. Generally speaking, special students would rather not have a guide demonstrator. They know what they go to see, and are able to study the matters which interest them without the help of anybody else. Schools have been mentioned by Lord Greville, and he has explained that the London County Council already maintain guide demonstrators in some of the museums under the charge of that body. I think that if there is a real difficulty in getting further grants it might well be worth consideration on the part of the noble Lord whether the London County Council, which no doubt send a large number of school children to these institutions, should not themselves provide these guide demonstrators, at any rate for the use of their own scholars. It really comes to this, that these guide demonstrators are more likely to be of use to a section of the general public than to either of the other classes mentioned by the noble Lord.
My noble friend Lord Reay has answered on behalf of the Victoria and Albert Museum. In the case of the National Gallery, I understand that though the trustees considered the matter they did not submit any recommendation, chiefly, I think, because they would like to make it a reason for getting more money from the Treasury. With regard to the Imperial Institute, I would rather leave my noble friend Lord Emmott, who is chairman of the committee who look after the Imperial Institute, to answer. As to the Wallace Collection, Lord Redesdale, who is, I think,

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the chairman of the trustees, complained of want of money and also of the difficulty of finding an expert who would be able to explain sufficiently well the valuable collections there. We must all regret that it is impossible to provide so well qualified a guide demonstrator as the noble Lord is himself to conduct parties round that museum. In the case of the London Museum, we regret that at the present time there is no room for organised parties. The trustees have done their best by popular labelling to meet the requirements of the general public. There, again, the reply is that we would like to appoint a guide demonstrator but have no funds available. Lastly I come to the Tower of London, the institution for which I am directly responsible. I may say that the Constable is wholly opposed to this scheme, and I think a very large number of those who use the Tower would very much regret the disappearance of the picturesque figures whose services are at present available as guides in going round that institution.
Now I come to the request of the noble Lord for the extensive information with regard to this matter set out in his Motion. I am afraid it is impossible to suppose that figures would be available at the present time in regard to the three separate classes in which the noble Lord has divided the public. I do not suppose the authorities have these figures even if they were willing to supply them to His Majesty's Government. Some of the information, the total number, is probably already available in the annual reports which many of the authorities issue. To consult all the local authorities in the United Kingdom would involve a very large expenditure of time, and I therefore venture to hope that the noble Lord will not press for a complete Return in that form. After all, what the noble Lord wants is that these authorities should make a more extensive use of guide demonstrators, and I should be glad of an opportunity of consulting with him as to whether the Return might not be obtained in the form of asking which of the local authorities in the museums under their charge make use of such demonstrators, in order that the noble Lord may be able more easily than he can at present to bring pressure to bear on the local authorities and try and persuade them to use these demonstrators in the future. I cannot help thinking that a Return of that kind would be more valuable than the more
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extended one for which he has asked, and I should be glad if he would allow me to consult with him on the subject.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD EMMOTT): My Lords, I am connected with the Imperial Institute in two ways. In the first place, the control of the Institute is in the hands of the Department which I represent in your Lordships' House; and, in the second place, I have been recently appointed Chairman of the Advisory Committee of that body. The Advisory Committee, however, is not a managing committee. Having been appointed to that position I have naturally made a careful study of the resources of the Imperial Institute, and I regret to say that they are by no means adequate to the amount of money that we should like to spend if we were able to do so. Much is being done there in the way of explaining the exhibits in the galleries, but no doubt a good deal more could be done by guide demonstrators. We have an inadequate income for what we want to do. That income comes from all over the Empire. I believe we get very good value for our money, but our circumstances are so straitened that we cannot find the money for guide demonstrators at present without; robbing some other department. I can only say, in a general way, that I should be very glad if we could see our way to appoint one or two guide demonstrators, and I can promise that the matter will be considered. But I do not want to be misunderstood. I am afraid that it will be impossible because we have not got the money for it.
LORD SUDELEY: My Lords, after what has fallen from the noble Earl the First Commissioner of Works I will leave the matter of the Return until I have had an opportunity of consulting with him as to the form it should take. But I do not think' there ought to be any great difficulty. I know that in the Provinces it is considered that such a Return would do great good; and if it is modified to the extent of asking what museums have now these guides and what museums have not, no doubt that for one year would be perhaps the best thing. I thank your Lordships for the way in which you have accepted the proposal, and for the present I beg to withdraw my Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL. [H.L.] (No. 42.)
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 to 1909, relating to Lossiemouth and Branderburgh, Maxwelltown, and Port Glasgow: And

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL. [H.L.] (No. 43.)
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 to 1909, relating to Lytham, Marlborough, Menai Bridge, Neath Rural District (Extension), Sevenoaks and District, Stroud and Wolverhampton (Extension)
—Were presented by the Lord Granard (E. Granard); read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.
House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.