Lords Sitting of 21 October 1912

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 13) BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House for Tuesday the 29 th instant.
FOREIGN ENLISTMENT BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to amend the Foreign Enlistment Act, 1870—Was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 152.)

ROYAL SCOTTISH MUSEUM (EXTENSION) BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, this is a small Bill, the object of which is to make provision for the acquisition of further ground for the extension of the Royal Scottish Museum at Edinburgh. Several properties have been sold by the owners voluntarily, but the Board have been advised that it will be impossible to acquire the whole of the requisite land without compulsory powers being held in reserve by the Board. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed for Tuesday the 29 th instant.

THE PUBLIC TRUSTEE FOR IRELAND.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether, in the event of the Government of Ireland Bill becoming law, the Public Trustee for Ireland would be responsible to, and under the control of, the Irish Executive or of the Imperial Government, and by whom would future vacancies in this office be filled. This may appear to some of your Lordships a matter of very small importance, but I can assure you that it is not so regarded in Ireland. A considerable amount of the funds
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administered by the Public Trustee in Ireland consists of moneys derived from the sale by landlords of their estates under the various Land Acts. At present there are few landlords who are actually dependent upon the interest which they derive from these funds, because, even if they had no property elsewhere, they have their houses in Ireland in which they live, and they still have the demesne lands which they either farm themselves or let out to the best possible advantage.
But if a Home Rule Bill were passed this might not be the case. There are many of us who believe that it would be impossible for Unionists in the three southern Provinces to remain in Ireland after the passage of that measure. As to the revenues which might be derived from demesne lands, we are strongly of opinion that they would amount almost to nothing, owing to specially vindictive taxation against them; and if it turns out that the Public Trustee is under the jurisdiction of the new Irish Government, and that instead of the gentleman who at present occupies that office some individual were appointed by the new rulers in Ireland, and, in addition to that, if the Irish Parliament were to pass a measure varying the securities in which these trust funds might be invested to the detriment of the beneficiaries, the lot of the Irish landlord would indeed be a very hard one.
I hope the noble Lord who will reply on behalf of His Majesty's Government will not content himself by referring to the paper guarantees in the Government of Ireland Bill, because he knows as well as I do that those guarantees could not be enforced except by a British army. I also hope he will not refer to the amicable expressions and promises made by the Nationalist Party. We have had experience of such promises. Similar ones were made at the time of the passage of the Local Government (Ireland) Bill in 1898, and they proved to be absolutely untrue and valueless. I trust that the noble Lord will be able to assure me that the Public Trustee for Ireland will remain an officer of the Imperial Government, and that thus he will be able, if necessity arises, to move the funds committed to his charge from the power of those to whom His Majesty's Ministers propose to entrust the future government of Ireland.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: My Lords, the noble Lord who has just addressed your Lordships has conjured up for your edification a series of horrors as to what will happen under the proposed Home Rule Bill. He has spoken of the almost certain vindictive taxation of demesne lands, and has referred with contempt to what he calls the "paper guarantees" that exist in the Bill. I do not think the noble Lord need have worried your Lordships, because a very elementary study of the Bill would have convinced him that, quite apart from all these considerations which may or may not be likely to happen, the position of the Public Trustee for Ireland is not affected by the Bill in question. This individual must not be confused with the English Public Trustee. Your Lordships will remember that this is an official appointed under the Land Purchase Act of 1903, and his duties are confined wholly to circumstances which arise out of the purchase of land under that Act. He has certain duties to perform, mainly, I think, of advice. That is what it amounts to in practice, although he can also occupy the position of Trustee at the desire of the tenant for life. This official would remain in exactly the same position under the proposed legislation as he is in now.
Clause 2, subsection (11), of the Bill provides that the subject of land purchase and all matters connected with it are to be treated as a Reserved Service. The Public Trustee will therefore be appointed by the Lord Lieutenant as he has been in the past, and his position will be in no wise altered. I think sonic confusion, perhaps, has arisen on this subject owing to the dual nature of the functions which the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland will perform in the future should this Bill become law. Concerning purely Irish affairs, the Lord Lieutenant will act upon the advice of his Irish Cabinet; but with regard to the services which are reserved, such as the Land Purchase Act, he will act, as he at present acts, under the advice of the Imperial Government. It may be, as I have said, that it is this dual capacity which the Lord Lieutenant will occupy which has given rise to the misgivings entertained by the noble Lord and prevented his seeing that under the clause which I have quoted the situation remains
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exactly as it is. In these circumstances the noble Lord can set his mind at rest. Such funds as the Public Trustee in Ireland deals with at present will be dealt with in exactly the same manner in the future.

GAS AUTHORITIES (RESIDUAL PRODUCTS).
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I am informed that I am acting within precedent in moving a formal Motion without notice. It is a Motion that your Lordships should agree with the other House in a Message which they sent to your Lordships last August with reference to the appointment of a Joint Committee to inquire into certain questions, familiar to many of your Lordships, that have arisen between alkaline manufacturers and the gas companies. I will at a later date move the appointment of the members of your Lordships' House to serve on the Joint Committee.
Moved, That this House do concur in the following Resolution communicated by the Commons on the 6th of August last, viz., "That it is expedient that a Select Committee of Five Members of the Commons be appointed to join with a Committee of the Lords to consider whether any, and, if any, what restrictions should be imposed on Gas Authorities with respect to the purchase and manufacture of the residual products resulting from the manufacture of gas by other Gas Authorities, or of other chemicals."—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
On Question, Motion agreed to: And a Message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do adjourn, except for Judicial business, until Tuesday, October 29.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before Five o'clock, to Wednes day next, half-past Ten o'clock.