§ Order of the day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
§ Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Galway.)
§ On Question, Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee accordingly.
§ [The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
§ Clause 1:
§ Power of Local Authorities to Acquire, &c., Existing Ferries.
§ (1)—(1) A county council may, with the consent of the Local Government Board, purchase or accept the transfer of, and the owner of any existing ferry may sell or transfer to a county council, upon such terms as may be agreed on between the owner and the council, any existing ferry which is within the area of that council or which serves the inhabitants of that area.
§ (2) Subject to the provisions of any Act of Parliament under which the ferry was established awl to the rights of my other persons, the county council may work, maintain, and improve the ferry and charge such tolls as were legally chargeable in respect of the ferry before the sale or transfer thereof to the council, or such other tolls as the council, with the approval of the Local Government Board, may determine; or, with the approval of the Local Government Board, the council may, if they think fit, free the ferries from tolls, and shall have the rights and powers which the owner of the ferry possessed and shall be subject to the obligations and liabilities to which he was subject.
§ (3) A county council may join with any other county council for the purchase or acceptance, working, maintenance, or improvement of a ferry under this Act, or may contribute towards the expenses of the purchase or acceptance, working, maintenance, or improvement of a ferry by another county council.
475§ (4) In this Act the expression "existing ferry" means any ferry legally established by Act of Parliament or otherwise at the date of the purchase or transfer, and includes all boats and other vessels, landing stages, approaches, apparatus, plant, and other property used in connexion with the ferry.
§ (5) The purposes of this Act shall be included amongst the purposes of the Public Health Acts, and the powers conferred by this Act shall be exercised subject to and in accordance with the provisions of those Acts, and the power conferred on the Local Government Board by the Public Health Act, 1875, of repealing, altering, and amending local Acts by Provisional Orders shall, notwithstanding anything in that Act, include a power of making by Provisional Orders such repeals, alterations, and amendments of local Acts as may appear to the Local Government Board to be necessary for the purpose of giving effect to agreements under this Act:
§ Provided that nothing in this subsection shall be construed as preventing a county council from delegating to any committee to whom they have delegated powers relating to highways any of their powers under this Act which they can delegate to a committee.
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEMy Lords, I indicated when I accepted the Second Reading of this Bill the other day that the Local Government Board might have a few Amendments to move in Committee to bring the Bill into a little better shape, and I venture to hope that the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill will agree to the Amendments which stand in my name on the Paper. The object of the first of the additional subsections standing in my name is merely to give the county council power to borrow for the purposes of purchasing a ferry if necessary.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 2, line 5, after ("ferry") insert:
(5) A county council may borrow for the purposes of this Act, under section sixty-nine of the Local Government Act, 1888, as if those purposes were mentioned in that section."—(Viscount Allendale.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEThe next subsection which I propose to add to Clause 1 is to meet the case in which a ferry is merely of service to a particular part of the county. In that case the county council might wish to charge the expense to the particular part of the county which is served by the ferry. It is solely to meet that point that this Amendment is proposed.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Insert the following new subsection:
(6) A county council may, if they consider that any expenses incurred by them under this Act in respect of any ferry should, instead of being charged upon the whole county, be specially charged on any parish or parishes in their county, charge those expenses upon that parish or those parishes as special expenses; and where any expenses are so charged as special expenses, any receipts in respect of the ferry shall be carried to a special county account for the benefit of the parish or parishes upon which the expenses are charged."—(Viscount Allendale.)
VISCOUNT GALWAYI agree with the principle embodied in this Amendment, and I have an Amendment later on the Paper to carry out that idea; but I should be perfectly willing not to move my Amendment if the noble Viscount will now accept a slight amendment of his Amendment. I propose that the noble Viscount's Amendment should be altered so that it would read—
A county council may, if they consider that any expenses incurred by them under this Act in respect of any ferry, not being for the purpose of a main road—because my view is that where a ferry is a connecting link between two main roads which are maintained by a county council the whole of that charge should fall on the county council—should, instead of being charged upon the whole county, be, to an amount not exceeding one-half, specially charged on any parish or parishes in their county.and so on to the end of the proposed new subsection. If the noble Viscount will accept those alterations of his Amendment, I will not move the Amendment standing in my name.
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEThe alterations proposed in my Amendment seem perfectly reasonable, and I am quite prepared to accept them provisionally. But if it should appear between now and the Report stage that there are objections which do not occur to me at the moment it may be necessary, on reconsideration, to ask the noble Viscount to agree to a further Amendment. Meanwhile I accept his amendment to my Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment to the Amendment agreed to.
§ Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
477§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEThe next subsection which I propose to add to Clause 1 is the customary adaptation of Section 87 of the Local Government Act, 1888, under which the Local Government Board are entitled to hold local inquiries with regard to matters within their jurisdiction. Presuming a county council required to borrow money for the purchase of a ferry, the consent of the Local Government Board would be necessary, and if objection were taken to the proposal it might be desirable to hold a local inquiry to ventilate the proposal and at which persons objecting could be heard. But should there be no objection to the proposal, it would not be necessary to hold an inquiry, and in that case there would be no extra expense involved by the insertion of this Amendment.
§ Amendment moved:
§
Insert the following now subsection:
(7) Section eighty-seven of the Local Government Act, 1888, which provides for local inquiries, shall apply to any cases where the Local Government Board are authorised to give any consent or approval under this Act as it applies to cases where the Local Government Board are authorised to give any consent or approval under the Local Government Act, 1888."—(Viscount Allendale.)
VISCOUNT GALWAYAs long as it is clearly understood that an inquiry is not compulsory in every case, I am prepared to accept the Amendment.
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEI understand that is so.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEThe purpose of the next Amendment is to include the council of a county borough within the expression "county council." It has been thought desirable to extend the Bill so as to include the councils of county boroughs, and obviously the term "county council" would not, without some express provision such as this, cover the case of a county borough council.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Insert the following new subsection:
(8) In this Act, the expression 'county council' includes the council of a county borough, and the council of a county borough shall have the same power of borrowing for the purposes of this Act as they have under the Public Health Acts, 1875 to 1908, for the purpose of defraying any expenses incurred by them in the execution of those Acts."—(Viscount Allendale.)
VISCOUNT GALWAYI did not desire to extend the scope of this Bill, but if the Local Government Board attach importance to this Amendment I am prepared to accept it.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ VISCOUNT ALLENDALEI now move to omit from the Bill the present subsection (5).
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, lines 6 to 21, leave out subsection (5).—(Viscount Allendale.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
EARL RUSSELLI move to insert, after Clause 1, a new clause providing for the protection from injury of passengers and the general public in regard to the working of ferries. In the case of an ordinary ferry with a footpath where people are taken across in a boat, there would be no occasion for anything of this sort; but there are a good many ferries worked by mechanical power, and in those cases some such provision as is contained in my Amendment is necessary. My attention was directed to this matter by a horrible accident which occurred at Devonport. A number of children were playing on the beach across which heavy chains run in connection with the ferry, and I saw the foot of a girl caught in the chain and a ghastly accident resulted which could easily have been averted if proper precautions had been taken. I have made the clause permissive, so that the Board of Trade would only make regulations where required. I made inquiries at the Board of Trade in regard to the case to which I have called attention, and was informed that they had no responsibility as the laud belonged to the Admiralty. The Admiralty also disowned responsibility. I think there should be protection for the public in regard to all ferries of this kind, and I therefore move the insertion of my Amendment.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Insert the following new clause:
. In the case of every ferry acquired under this Act regulations with regard to the working may be made by the Board of Trade for the protection from injury of passengers and the general public."—(Earl Russell.)
VISCOUNT GALWAYWe should all naturally wish that every precaution should be taken for the safety of passengers and the general public, but whether it is necessary to bring in another Government Department I do not know. I should have thought that the care of this matter might be left to the Local Government Board. I am anxious, however, that the public should be protected, and if the noble Earl thinks it would make it safer that the clause should stand as it is I have no objection to it.
§ THE EARL OF GRANARDAs far as the Board of Trade are concerned, they have no objection to the insertion of this clause. The noble Earl who moved it made out a good case for it, especially with regard to ferries worked by mechanical power. The clause, as your Lordships see, is purely permissive, and under it the Board of Trade can exercise jurisdiction or not as they think fit.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ THE EARL OF GRANARDThe Board of Trade consider the new clause which I now propose as necessary to safeguard Crown rights. Your Lordships are aware that a great many ferries are worked in tidal waters, and for this reason the Board of Trade are of opinion that this clause, which is a usual one, should be inserted to safeguard Crown rights in this case. I trust that the noble Viscount will not object to its insertion.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Insert the following new clause:
. Nothing in this Act affects prejudicially any estate, right, power, privilege, or exemption of the Crown, and in particular nothing herein contained authorises any county council to take, use, or in any manner interfere with any portion of the shore or bed of the sea or of any river, channel, creek, bay, or estuary or any land, hereditaments, subjects, or rights of whatsoever description belonging to His Majesty in right of His Crown and under the management of the Commissioners of Woods or of the Board of Trade respectively without the consent in writing of the Commissioners of Woods or the Board of Trade, as the case may be, on behalf of His Majesty first had and obtained for that purpose (which consent the said Commissioners and Board are hereby respectively authorised to give)."—(The Earl of Granard.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Remaining clause agreed to.
§ The Report of Amendments to be received on Monday the 25th instant, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 14.)