Lords Sitting of 26 June 1912

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners. (No. 91.)
EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (ESSEX, &c.) BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment, and to be read 3a To-morrow.
LAND DRAINAGE (LINCOLN WEST) (SOUTH DISTRICT) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
GAS AND WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection in regard to the Swansea Gas Order and the West Kent Gas Order.
BRADFORD CORPORATION TROLLEY VEHICLES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order), and committed.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order).
SEAL FISHERIES (NORTH PACIFIC) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.

NATIONAL INSURANCE.
LORD HENEAGE LORD HENEAGE rose to call attention to the National Health Leaflet now being circulated through the Post Office by the National Insurance Committee, and to ask the following Questions—
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1. Whether they will issue without delay a simple and clear leaflet as to what it is necessary for contributors to do in regard to cards and stamps to comply with the Act without becoming either a member of an approved society or a Post Office depositor on the 15th of July next.

2. When the Insurance Commissioners intend to take the applications of the smaller rural societies into consideration, and whether the Government are aware that some of the approved societies are now canvassing the agricultural districts to obtain members before the 15th of July in accordance with the official leaflets, whilst the smaller societies are still without any reply to their applications.

3. When the Government will be in a position to guarantee the medical and sanatoria benefits promised in the leaflet alluded to.

4. Whether the Government have received the opinion of the Law Officers as to the legality of an employer deducting the cost of the workmen's or domestic servants' stamps against the wish of those employed by him.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, my Notice was down on the Paper for last Monday, but I received a telephonic message from the noble Marquess the Leader of the house at one o'clock in the afternoon asking me to postpone it to suit the convenience of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, and, of course, I did so. I have put it down for to-day by arrangement with the Government, and I regret to know that Lord Crewe will not be present on this occasion because I shall have to allude to some part of his speech a fortnight ago. In that debate the noble Marquess declined to postpone the operation of the National Insurance Act. He said he preferred the principle of solvitur ambulando; and both he and the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack protested in the strongest way against the misapprehensions as to the work to be done before July 15. There was to be no "hustling" or "hurry"; time was to be given for new societies, and both noble Lords expressed the greatest sympathy for the small rural societies, particularly in reply to the speech of my noble friend Lord St. Audries. No contributor need become a member of any approved society

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or a Post Office depositor before next October; let them "wait and see."
I do not like in his absence to give my impression of what was said by the noble Marquess the Leader of the House in my own words, and therefore I hope the House will allow me to read from the OFFICIAL REPORT the exact words which he used. The noble Marquess said—
"I should like to say that I fully agree with the noble Lord who spoke last as to the importance of some of these small rural societies, many of them of long standing, and I entirely appreciate that they are regarded with a peculiar and intimate sort of affection by those who belong to them, who would dislike and resent, if such a thing were possible, being forced into one of the large and to them somewhat bleak sort of societies in place of the smaller body with which they are familiar."
The noble Marquess made some other remarks with regard to the small societies. He then went on to the question which is of most importance to-day—namely, the operation of the Act. He said—
"Noble Lords have spoken freely of the Act coming into operation on July 15 as though at that time, on that date, everybody had to be a member of an approved society or become a deposit contributor."
I hope noble Lords will weigh those words and remember them as I proceed. The noble Marquess went on to say—
"It is desirable to make it markedly clear, although I know it has been admitted by one noble Lord that such is not the case, but that a further three months will exist after July 15 during which that choice can be made. Everybody has a free choice until October as to whether he will join an approved society, and, if so, what, or whether he will become a deposit contributor."
Perhaps as I am quoting from this debate I may be allowed to quote from some words which were used to enforce these remarks by the Lord Chancellor. The noble and learned Viscount said—
"It is asked how is the servant to find his society; it might not be ready by July 15. That may be so. There is an immense deal to be done, but it need not all be done by July 15. For three months after that there is nothing necessary except to put the stamps on the card and so secure payment of the contributions. By that time a great many more societies will have been approved than have been approved up to the present."
Why was not that put into the leaflet which has been scattered broadcast through every household in Great Britain? The noble and learned Viscount went on to say—
"We feel that these small societies form part of the life of the country, and therefore it is desirable that plenty of opportunity should he given them in
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order to enable them to get upon their feet. As I have said, no one will need to join a society for three months, and at the end of three months he need not join a society but can become a deposit contributor, and if he does not wish to remain a deposit contributor he can withdraw his account and transfer himself to a society. So that really the 15th of July, about which date a great many unnecessary alarms have been conjured up—
not half as many as have been conjured up by the leaflet to which I am about to allude—
"means nothing except that persons will have to put stamps on the cards."
I have quoted this from the noble and learned Viscount's remarks in order that there may be no mistake about what he said. I shall have a few further comments to make upon those remarks later.
Now I come to this misleading and mendacious leaflet. The leaflet commences by saying—
"Every person in the service of an employer must be insured if between the ages of 16 and 70 and must get a contribution card before July 15, either from the approved society of which he or she is a member or from any Post Office."
That is the truth, but it is not the whole truth; it is a very dangerous half-truth. Then the leaflet goes on to say—
"The full benefits of insurance can only be obtained by joining an approved society (see page 4)."
What does page 4 say? We there read that—
"It is of the greatest importance to every employed man or woman that he or she should join an approved society without delay—
that is not solvitur ambulando—
"and so avoid becoming a deposit contributor."
That is absolutely and entirely untrue. There is no other word for it, because it is perfectly clear, not only from the Act itself but from the statements made by the noble Marquess the Leader of this House and by the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack, that they have until October to choose their society, and that there is not the slightest necessity for their becoming members of an approved society "without delay." Then there is this other little reminder—
"If an insured person does not join a society he will have to become a deposit contributor."
That, again, is absolutely untrue. He can get his card at a Post Office and retain it for three months and can select any society between now and October 15, and there is

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not the slightest necessity for him to become a deposit contributor unless he desires to do so.
This leaflet is without date and without signature, and perhaps it is just as well for those who composed it that it is. But they are not satisfied with this leaflet which they have sent round to every householder throughout the country. In order that there may be no mistake about it they have put up a notice in every Post Office, of which I could not get a copy. I went to a Post Office, however, this morning and copied it for myself. This notice states that—
"The full benefits of insurance can only be of tanned by joining an approved society. This should be done at once."
This is emphasising the leaflet. The leaflet said "without delay" but the notice calling attention to the leaflet says that it should be done "at once." I say that that is a most monstrous notice to have been issued, particularly when we know as a matter of fact that the Insurance Commission is a mere dummy Commission entirely under the control of Mr. Lloyd George and Mr. Masterman. None of your Lordships will be surprised to hear that there has been very great consternation in the country. I do not know whether any of your Lordships have had as many letters as I have received with regard to this leaflet. The members of the smaller societies are getting very anxious because they are receiving no reply as to whether or not they will be approved, and some of them think it is far better to dissolve their societies and join some of these other societies. Some of the societies which have been approved have most honestly stated that they are not prepared at the present moment with branches which would be suitable either to domestic servants or to rural labourers but hope to establish them later, and that they are no party to their agents touting for members in the country. But that is not the case with all of the societies. I will take one other—the Prudential. Their agents have been into every household in the country—certainly that is the case in Lincolnshire—hustling people and telling them, with this leaflet in one hand, that they must become members of an approved society without delay, and offering them the address of the Prudential Society. One looks to see where the milk is in the cocoanut when one
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sees a large society like the Prudential, which is not supposed to have so much extra money to spend, taking a whole broad sheet of The Times simply to put its own name and address upon it, without giving any information at all. I think this shows that there is something to be got out of it, for you do not get a broad sheet of The Times for coppers.
This raises another point to my mind. I do not wish to be suspicious, but it is an absolutely notorious fact that up to about May 25 there was not one single large friendly society in England which did not wish to have the operation of the Act put off for seven months in order that they might produce what they thought were the necessary branches for domestic servants, for clerks, for agricultural labourers, and other classes. This was brought up in the debate a fortnight ago, and the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack then told us that these friendly societies were most anxious that the Act should come into operation on July 15. Yes, but why? Because between the time when they had their general meetings at Whitsuntide and the time when the noble and learned Viscount spoke they had become approved societies. They were in clover; they did not want any other societies to step in and take part of the plunder. The domestic servants and the rural labourers will be the most profitable members to these societies. Their contributions will go to pay for the sick benefit for town members, and it is just because we want to prevent domestic servants from being raked in by societies like the Prudential that we protest against this statement in the leaflet and against this touting under cover of the leaflet.
One word with regard to the small societies about which the noble and learned Viscount was so anxious and apprehensive a fortnight ago. Why are they not approved? Many of them asked to be approved long before May 25, long before any of these larger societies were rushed in at twenty-four hours' notice on May 31, yet not one of them has even had a courteous reply to the application. Mr. Runciman, who generally speaks pretty straight and pretty accurately, was down at Lincolnshire last Friday. He expressed his deep regret at the number of small societies which had become dissolved and his hope

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that something would be done to preserve them. He did not mention that the way to preserve them was for the members to wait and see whether their small societies were approved or not, but he did state that during the previous twelve months 397 registered small societies had been dissolved and that at least 400 more had applied to the Registrar-General. But what are the Government doing to save them? No applications have been even answered, and, so far as I know, not one of these societies has received approval. I say that this leaflet is misleading. I say that certain parts of it are most mendacious. I ask the Government to see that the people who are being deceived by this leaflet shall not be deceived any more. It is a very easy thing, this particular paragraph having misled a great many people in the country, to send out a short notice stating the facts. I should like them to state that no one need become a member of any of the present approved societies or a Post Office depositor before October 13 next, notwithstanding all the misleading literature; that SO long as contributors obtain the necessary card from the Post Office and have the stamps affixed by each pay-clay after July 15, either weekly, fortnightly, or monthly, they can wait and select at any time before October 15 the society which will give them the benefits most suitable to them. This is, in my opinion, especially necessary in the case of agricultural labourers and domestic servants. I think a short leaflet containing that information might to a large extent rectify the misapprehension which exists in regard to what is required.
Let me say one or two words with regard to the Questions on the Paper. I do not think, after what I have said, that it is necessary for me to give any further evidence in regard to Questions 1 and 2. The third Question refers to the benefits to be provided under the Act—principally medical benefits and sanatoria. I alluded to this question a fortnight ago, and I ventured to say then, and I was not contradicted, that the Act of last year was a contract between the Government on the one hand and those who will be contributors on the other, and that whilst they were to contribute weekly towards this fund the Government on the other hand undertook honourably and faithfully to give them the benefits which they contracted to give. On the third page of this famous leaflet
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contributors are told that among the benefits they are to receive are—

(1) MEDICAL BENEFIT—that is, doctor and medicine, or in special circumstances money payments instead.

(2) SANATORIUM BENEFIT—that is, treatment in a sanatorium or in some other way in case of consumption.

I repeat what I said a fortnight ago. The Government cannot give these benefits unless they come to an arrangement with the medical profession. They have not come to such an arrangement up to the present time. On the contrary, the medical profession seem to get more irritated every day and are even threatening to give up their honorary posts at hospitals. We ought to be told whether there is any prospect of the Government coming to an arrangement with the medical profession. As to sanatoria, no arrangements have been made for this benefit coming into operation on July 15. The medical benefit, it is true, does not come into operation until January, but sanatorium benefit comes into operation at once. I ask, Where are the sanatoria? What arrangements have been made for sanatorium benefit? How can any arrangements be made for sanatoria unless you have the consent of the medical men? Therefore I think Question 3 on the Paper stands on its own merits.
With regard to the fourth Question, the noble Marquess the Leader of the House told me after the debate a fortnight ago that he was unable to answer the question at that time because it was under the consideration of the Law Officers, but I understand that the Law Officers have now given their opinion, and I should like very much to know what it is. There is only one other point which I should like to make, not so much with regard to what is in the leaflet as to what took place a fortnight ago. We are in this House accustomed to rely upon the accuracy of House of Lords Statesmen on both sides of the House and especially of Ministers of the Crown. It is absolutely impossible, when the whole of the work of the Ministerial Bench has to be done by two or three Cabinet Ministers, that they can possibly have of their own knowledge information with regard to the details of questions which belong to the various Departments for which they have to reply. It is quite clear that neither the noble Marquess the Leader of the House

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nor the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack had the slightest notion that at the very moment they were speaking this leaflet was in print and was being sent out to the Post Offices. I do not believe for a moment that they had, because we all know that they would have told us candidly and honestly if they had known this. Therefore I say we have a right to expect, when Ministers in the House of Commons depute their colleagues to answer for them in your Lordships' House on matters of which their colleagues can have no personal knowledge, that at any rate they should give them every information honestly and faithfully and supply them with the whole truth with regard to the facts on which they have to speak and not keep back from them essential facts which are important to the debate, With the exception of the refusal to put off the operation of the Act, the debate in your Lordships' House a fortnight ago was very satisfactory. Courteous and sympathetic language was used by the noble Marquess the Leader of the House and by the Lord Chancellor, and I, for one, desire to thank them for the way in which they treated my Motion on that occasion. But when I come to know that at that time the "other voice," to which the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition referred, was compiling this leaflet which was to be distributed throughout the length and breadth of the land, then I ask what reliance can we put in future on information which is vouchsafed by noble Lords who speak for Departments with which they have nothing to do and which ought to be absolutely accurate and true?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, I am sure that the Questions which the noble Lord has placed on the Paper have been put down with a desire to have the position of the contributor in regard to an approved society made perfectly clear. The noble Lord stated that what was said by the noble Marquess the Leader of the House a fortnight ago differs considerably from the three lines on page 4 of this leaflet, and also differs considerably from the note at the bottom of the Post Office notice to which he alluded. If I may take that point first, I think that as a matter of fact what the noble Marquess the Leader of the House said in the recent debate and what is stated in the leaflet and in the Post Office notice are really very similar in nature. The whole thing hinges on
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the word "should." The noble Marquess on June 12 said—
"Everybody has a free choice until October as to whether he will join an approved society, and, if so, what, or whether he will become a deposit contributor."
I do not think there is any great difference between what the noble Marquess then said and the three lines in the leaflet, which run—
"It is of the greatest importance to every employed man or woman that he or she should join an approved society without delay."
It does not say that he or she "must" join an approved society without delay. If every single person who is going to join an approved society left the actual joining until the last days of the quarter the work would be enormous. First of all, it would inflict great hardship on the actual societies themselves. It would also be very difficult to manage such an enormous lot of applications coming in at one time. These three lines were inserted in the leaflet simply for the purpose of getting people to join as soon as possible, not to lead them to think that they must join at once. The noble Lord shakes his head.
LORD HENEAGE: The statement on the leaflet is that he or she should join an approved society "without delay"—that is, it should be done at once.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: it does not say that he or she "must" join at once. I will give an analogy which comes within my own experience. In the old Volunteer days there was a certain time by which the musketry had to be clone and everybody invariably left it till the very end, with the result that a great deal of heavy work in connection with the returns fell upon the adjutant at that time. But here, when you are dealing with a totally new subject, it would be extremely difficult if everything were left until the last few days of the quarter and if nothing was done before then as regards employed persons joining one of the approved societies. I do not see, therefore, that the statement on the leaflet and what the noble Marquess the Leader of the House said on June 12 are at all different. It would be another matter if this leaflet said that every employed person "must" join an approved society at once. I have in my hand a copy of the Post Office notice to which the

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noble Lord referred. The statement thereon is that—
"The full benefits of insurance can only be obtained by joining an approved society. This should be done at once."
It does not say "must" be done at once. The noble Marquess the Leader of the House was alluding, first, to rural societies which have not yet made their arrangements. He rightly thought that there was no reason for members of rural societies which are not approved by July 15 to leave their societies. They have a special reason for waiting, and no one becomes a deposit contributor before October 14. Hence in special circumstances it would be as well to wait. In the case of members of rural societies, or of other societies which are applying for approval but have not yet been approved, the society should make it clear to its members that they can get their cards from the Post Office and hand them to the society in October, by which time it will be seen whether they are approved or not. Secondly, as regards domestic servants. Domestic servants might wait and see what societies were offering special benefits suited to their particular requirements. In these two cases, where there is special reason for waiting, the noble Marquess advised that there was no need to join within the next few weeks and that it would be best to wait. But where there is no special reason for waiting insured persons should, as advised in the leaflet, join without delay.
I will now take the noble Lord's Questions seriatim. In his first Question the noble Lord asks whether the National Insurance Commission will issue without delay a simple and clear leaflet as to what it is necessary for contributors to do in regard to cards and stamps to comply with the Act without becoming either a member of an approved society or a Post Office depositor on July 15 next. The answer is "Yes"; and it is suggested—I do not say that these are the actual words which will be used—that some such form as this should be put forward: (a) The employee will get his card on or before July 15. If he is a member of one of the approved societies (which are now issuing cards to their members) he will get his card from his society. If he is not, he will get it from any Post Office. (b) A master or mistress can obtain cards for their servants, if they prefer, by sending for them to any Post Office. (c) Employers of labour
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can obtain cards to give to their employees who have not obtained cards for themselves by applying to the Insurance Commissioners. All these cards (whether (a) they come from an approved society or (b) from the Post Office or (c) from the Insurance Commissioners) are if exactly the same kind; all are valid for a quarter, and, when the stamps are on them, all will equally be taken by any approved society the employee may join. (d) A special kind of card, called an "emergency" card, for one week, can be obtained by employers to stamp in case the ordinary cards are mislaid; but to begin with private employers need not trouble about these, and will probably find it simpler to get the ordinary cards for their servants. (e) When wages are paid on or next after July 15 the employer will see that the cards are stamped. He need not, of course, stamp them himself, any more than he need actually pay the wages himself, but he will be responsible for its being done. In ordinary cases stamps to the value of 7d. (for men) and 6d. (for women) will be put on for each week, 4d. of which (for men) and 3d. (for women) for each week may be deducted from wages. (f) An employer has only to see that a card is properly stamped for the persons he employs and he will have done his duty under the Act. Then whether his servant destroys his card or refuses to join a society, or whatever he does, the employer has fulfilled his duty under the Act and is liable to no penalty.
THE EARL OF MAYO: Does that mean that once the employer has done this after July 15 he will have no more responsibility for the remainder of his life?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: I do not follow the noble Earl's question. Then (g) at the end of the quarter, i.e., by the middle of October, the cards (with their 13 weeks' stamps) will be filled up and members of approved societies will send or take them to those societies. Those who are not members of societies will take them to the Post Office. (h) Those who have not joined societies by the middle of October—and whose cards therefore go to the Post Office—will be deposit contributors. But there will be no deposit contributors until the middle of October.
In his second Question the noble Lord asks when the Insurance Commissioners intend to take the applications of the

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smaller rural societies into consideration, and whether the Government are aware that some of the approved societies are now canvassing the agricultural districts to obtain members before July 15 in accordance with the official leaflets, whilst the smaller societies are still without any reply to their applications. The Commissioners have taken special care that in the administration of the Act nothing should be done to impair the status or utility of small rural societies or prevent them from applying for approval. It has become evident, however, that in order that they may administer the Act efficiently some form of common action is desirable. The Commissioners have therefore encouraged and in some cases helped to found some form of county associations for the purpose. These associations are of various kinds and include county friendly societies, county State insurance societies, county associations of separately approved societies, and voluntary advisory committees. In every case their object is to provide the full benefits of the Act without impairing the independence or voluntary activities of the village societies. When the Commissioners are satisfied that such organisations are representative of rural interests as a whole they have given and will continue to give them all the assistance in their power, e.g., by providing literature specially suited to the particular area, by preparing model rules, and by bringing local societies and county organisations into touch with each other. Lecturers and officers of the Commission have attended meetings specially to advise them as to their constitution and procedure, and will be sent, if possible, still more freely in the future. Every possible assistance will also be given to societies in keeping their accounts, and it is hoped that the official auditors and officers of the Commission will be able to give personal advice and assistance to officers of societies who desire it before the real work of account-keeping commences in October, when the cards come into the societies. This is the policy of the Commission. It means that instead of dealing separately with all individual applications from small rural societies they are attempting to reach them more effectively through the medium of these larger associations. Necessarily the arrangements indicated are not yet complete, and actual approvals in the majority of cases therefore are not yet given. This would be a serious disadvantage if it were neces
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sary for persons affected by such societies to join them by July 15. But they will not become deposit contributors so long as they join by October, and by that time all societies which have now definitely decided to take its share in the administration of the Act should be approved.
LORD HENEAGE: When will the applications of these small societies be taken into consideration?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: The noble Lord has asked why the applications for approval sent in by these small societies have not been answered. Where it has been possible to answer them direct it has been done, and in other cases they have been answered through the medium of the county associations to which I have alluded.
I now come to the noble Lord's third Question, in which he asks when the Government will be in a position to guarantee the medical and sanatoria benefits promised in the leaflet alluded to. The Government can at once give an absolute assurance of what is promised in the National Health Leaflet—"doctor and medicine, or in special circumstances money payment instead." Negotiations are at present proceeding with representatives of the medical profession. They are of a friendly character; but it would clearly be inexpedient to risk prejudicing them by any statement while they are still in progress. They are not likely to be prolonged, and the Government hope that long before January 15, when medical benefit begins under the Act, they will have been successfully concluded. If, however, it should prove impossible to make arrangements, insured persons would in that case receive an equivalent payment in money. If that be 6s. a year, which was the calculation upon which the scheme of the Act was based, it will mean that each insured person for medical treatment per year will receive—in the case of a man, 2s. 8d. from his own contributions, 2s. from his employer, and 1s. 4d. from the State; making a total of 6s.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Can the noble Earl tell us whether the 1s. 4d. he has mentioned from the State is a positive fixed payment?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: Yes, on the basis of the 6s. which was first calculated.
LORD HENEAGE: This 6s. is the amount on which the medical profession have said that the work cannot possibly be done?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: I believe that is so.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Do the Government give an actual pledge that 1s. 4d. will be paid by them for this medical benefit if it comes to payment in money?
THE EARL or LIVERPOOL: I am authorised to make this statement, that if it should prove impossible to make arrangements insured persons would in that case receive an equivalent payment in money. If that be 6s. a year, which, as I have said, was the calculation upon which the scheme of the Act was based, it will mean that each insured person for medical treatment per year will receive 6s.
LORD AMPTHILL: What is the exact meaning of the cryptic and disquieting phrase which the noble Earl used that the Insurance Commissioners are "trying to reach the rural societies through the medium of the larger societies." Does that mean that the larger societies are being induced to swallow up the smaller societies? If it does not mean that, I fail to see what it does mean.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: If the noble Lord will put that down as a separate Question I will do my best to answer it.
LORD AMPTHILL: I was quoting the noble Earl's own words. He can surely explain them.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: Lord Heneage asked how we were dealing with the smaller rural societies which had not been approved, and I said that the policy of the Commissioners in that case was to find out whether they were able to become approved societies through the medium of the three different kinds of associations which I mentioned.
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I now come to the question of sanatorium benefit. In this case no waiting period is laid down in the Act, as in the case of medical benefit. Sanatorium benefit comes into operation on July 15. It must be remembered, however, that only employed persons will be insured. A gradually increasing number of these will in time develop tuberculosis, but there is no reason to anticipate a sudden rush of great numbers of insured persons claiming treatment. As will be seen from the Astor Report, "sanatorium benefit" does not mean treatment in sanatoria only. It may include, in addition or as alternatives, treatment through hospitals, through dispensaries, and through other forms of existing agencies, and also treatment in the patients' homes. These alternative methods are directly contemplated in the Act and indicated in the National Health Leaflet; and the Astor Report shows clearly the different sets of cases which require these different sets of treatment. One of the paragraphs in that Report states that—
"The belief that any considerable proportion of consumptives may safely depend on any one factor of the treatment to the exclusion of the others, such, for instance, as satisfactory housing, adequate nutrition, the sanatorium, or tuberculin, is a mistake, and, if acted upon, is likely to diminish the value which may be expected to accrue from each and all of these when used in proper conjunction."
From the commencement of the Act insured persons will be sent to sanatoria for treatment as far as sanatoria are then available. Some will be sent to hospitals. As soon as the local authorities have instituted tuberculosis dispensaries, a matter which they are actively engaged in, patients will be referred to those institutions. A considerable number will receive treatment in their own homes from private practitioners. It is not, of course, suggested that institutions for treatment will be available on July 15, 1912, to the same extent as by July 15, 1913. It was never expected that institutions could be built in time, but the Act provides the money by which institutions can be developed as rapidly as those responsible can carry out the work. From July 15 onwards a considerable number of insured persons will begin to receive through the assistance of the insurance funds treatment for tuberculosis which would not otherwise have been available for them. Some who could not have afforded any treatment will have treatment provided, and some who could

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only have afforded treatment on a very limited scale will be able to obtain with the assistance of the insurance fund treatment of a better kind than they themselves could possibly have provided. The provision for tuberculous persons will begin as far as possible as soon as the Act comes into operation, and will increase with every week.
In his fourth Question the noble Lord asks whether the Government have received the opinion of the Law Officers as to the legality of an employer deducting the cost of the workmen's or domestic servants' stamps against the wish of those employed by him. The answer to that is that Section 3 of the Third Schedule of the National Insurance Act authorises the employer to deduct from wages paid by him the workman's part of the contribution payable under Part I of the Act, notwithstanding the provisions of any contract to the contrary. In the opinion of the legal advisers of the Insurance Commission the effect of this section is perfectly clear, and no reference to the Law Officers of the Crown is considered necessary.
LORD HENEAGE: Does the noble Earl mean to say that the point is not going to be submitted to the Law Officers of the Crown? Lord Crewe told me that the reason for his not answering my question a fortnight ago was that the point was to be submitted to the Law Officers.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: I am assured that the Act is perfectly clear, and that the step that has been taken is all that is necessary. Two additional Questions have been sent to me privately. The first is as to a complaint with regard to the printing of this leaflet. There are a number of copies of the leaflet which have been badly printed, and steps have been taken to prevent any recurrence of that. The second Question was sent to me by a noble Lord from Ireland, who asks what would happen supposing he spent part of the year in Ireland and the other part in London. He wishes to know whether it would be better for his servants to be insured in Ireland or in England, because the contributions are different in the two countries. I have asked the noble Lord to kindly allow me to postpone the answer to that Question until I have made the necessary inquiries.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I only rise to say a word or two with regard to the statement which has just been made by the noble Earl. Lord Heneage, in bringing this question before the House, pointed out in rather strong terms that this leaflet was calculated to convey a very erroneous impression to the ordinary man in the street with regard to what he ought to do. The noble Marquess who leads the House and the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack the other day pointed out to your Lordships very clearly that there was no reason why this Act should not come into force on July 15, because it was not necessary for an employed person to join an approved society before October 15. That, of course, was a perfectly good argument. But to say that that statement is the same as and corresponds with the statement in this leaflet seems to me a very strange contention.
The noble Earl who replied to-day on behalf of His Majesty's Government founded his defence on the difference between the word "should" and the word "must." Unfortunately the ordinary man in the country does not draw such fine distinctions, and when he is told that the full benefits of insurance can only be obtained by joining an approved society and that it is most desirable that he should join an approved society without delay, and when also a Post Office notice is circulated to the effect that he should do this at once, he does not go into distinctions between "should" and "must," and as far as that part of the noble Earl's statement was concerned I confess I do not think it was of very much value. In the first place, Lord Heneage asked when the Insurance Commissioners intend to take the applications of the small rural societies into consideration. That is a most important point, because the Commissioners have taken into consideration the applications of the larger societies and have approved them, thereby giving them an advantage of which they are apparently making full use by advertising and pointing out the benefits that will be derived by joining them as approved societies.
The difficulty which the smaller societies are in is this. In the first place, many of them have not received a definite answer to their application, and if they are not going to be approved very shortly

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they are distinctly placed in a very inferior position and are likely to lose thereby. I confess I could not understand the words which Lord Liverpool used, and which appeared also to puzzle Lord Ampthill as much as they did me, when he said that the Commissioners were "endeavouring to reach the smaller societies through the larger associations." What does that mean? I have no conception. Are the Commissioners communicating with them? Have they done anything?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: I explained that the manner in which the Commissioners are attempting to get into touch with the smaller rural societies is through the county associations. These associations are of various kinds, and include county friendly societies, county State insurance societies, county associations of separately approved societies, and the voluntary advisory committees which exist in most counties for the purpose of helping to bring in the small societies as approved societies.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Then it means that, so far as they can, the Commissioners are endeavouring to swallow up these smaller societies through the medium of the larger societies?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: No.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Then I am afraid I do not understand what the noble Earl means. What mode there can be of reaching the smaller societies through the larger ones without swallowing them up I am at a loss to understand. With regard to medical benefits, I wonder how many times we have been told that the negotiations which are proceeding with the medical profession are of a friendly kind. I remember hearing the same thing a fortnight ago, and I ventured to point out to your Lordships on that occasion that the friendly manner in which these negotiations had commenced was by the Chancellor of the Exchequer abusing the medical profession in very strong language. I suppose negotiations which commence in that manner may subsequently become comparatively friendly, hut as to the amount of real friendship there is in these negotiations one can only guess. When are these negotiations likely to be concluded? On many occasions in both
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Houses of Parliament we have been told that the negotiations were nearly concluded. Mr. Masterman said he hoped to make an announcement very shortly, and it was then that he said the negotiations were extremely friendly. A month has since elapsed, but apparently we are no nearer to a settlement. The noble Earl who replied to-day on behalf of His Majesty's Government alluded to the month of January as the time when the medical benefits would come into operation. I suppose from that he meant that he hoped that by January next some arrangement might have been arrived at with the doctors. We can all imagine what this arrangement, if it ever is arrived at, is likely to be. Certainly the Chancellor of the Exchequer will find that if he is going to make an arrangement he will have to put his hand into his pockets to a depth which he never contemplated when he commenced these negotiations.
Now with regard to sanatoria. There are no sanatoria. How could there be? And now, as I understand, the Commissioners are actually making applications to the various county councils, or rather to the provisional committees which they have set up in the various counties, asking them what provision they propose to make. All this merely shows what haste and hurry there has been in bringing this Act into operation, or in pretending to bring it into operation. One excuse that was given by the noble Earl to-day was that there was not likely to be any sudden rush of consumptives. I thought we were told that tuberculosis was so common that we had to stamp it out. Now we are informed that one reason why we need not be alarmed about the absence of sanatoria is that there will not be any rush of consumptives. I must confess I do not understand it. To the general tone of this leaflet I take great exception—not to any particular words in it, but to the whole tone. Its whole tone is that of men who are trying to induce the public to fall in with their Act and are not particular as to the terms which they use in offering these inducements. They shave the truth as close as possible. It is the difference between "should" and "must." Any ordinary man reading this leaflet and the other leaflets would certainly be led to believe that it was necessary for him to join some approved society at once.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: I should like to say, in regard to the remarks of the noble Earl about the swallowing up of the smaller societies, that that is not intended in the least. The Commissioners find it is easier to get in touch with the smaller societies by local means. In the case of Wiltshire they have been in communication with the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition, and with Lord Heneage in regard to Lincolnshire. They find it much easier to get information through those agencies.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: What information?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: Information as regards the societies so as to be able to help them in every possible way.
THE EARL OF MAYO: With regard to the payment of money instead of medical benefits, I should like to ask the noble Earl a question. Suppose a man does not get the benefits but takes the money, does he only get one sum of 6s. during his illness?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: He gets one sum of 6s. in the year.
LORD SANDERSON: My Lords, I do not wish to ask the noble Earl any questions, but perhaps I might be allowed to make one or two small suggestions. In the first place, I feel bound to state that Lord Camperdown was mistaken in saying that there are no sanatoria. There certainly are sanatoria and dispensaries in which considerable numbers of consumptive persons are treated, though they are not Government institutions. But what I wish to say is this. The Government are issuing for the payment of these insurance contributions stamps of the value of 6d. and 7d., and they are also issuing stamps of the value of 1s. and 1s. 2d., the latter for the payment of two weeks' contributions in one stamp. In the leaflets there is no suggestion that you can pay these contributions otherwise than with a separate stamp for each week. What I wish to suggest is that in the new leaflet which is going to be issued something should be said as to our being allowed, if that is intended, to stamp the card every fortnight by a single stamp and there should be a direction where it should be placed. I am not sure that this will not require the issue of a fresh regulation also.
On the subject of regulations perhaps I might be allowed to make another suggestion. The National Insurance Commissioners
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are issuing a considerable number of regulations. They are called draft regulations and vary a good deal inform. They all of them have short titles. Sometimes the short title is put at the end of the regulations, sometimes at the beginning, sometimes it is put in the heading and sometimes not. It is very desirable, I think, that they should all follow one model. But there is another point. These regulations are all, according to the Act, laid before Parliament, and when they are so laid they are no longer called draft regulations but provisional regulations, issued under the seal and signature of the Commission. I do not know whether, when the time has elapsed during which they should lie on the Table of Parliament, the provisional regulations become definitive regulations. But there is this curious fact, that the provisional regulations issued by the Commission do not in several cases bear the same date as the draft regulations which are identical with them. For instance, the regulation upon the subject of the collection and payment of contributions is dated as a draft regulation "May 24," but as laid before Parliament as a provisional regulation it is dated "May 22"; from which it would appear that it was issued before it was drafted. That, of course, is a slip; but I suggest that when the Act comes into operation all these regulations should be gathered together and should as far as possible be numbered and put into order, so that we who are liable to be fined through a contravention of them should be able to refer to them without so much difficulty as we at present experience.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, this conversation suggests, I think, a moral. It shows how eminently reasonable your Lordships were a few days ago when you asked that the operation of the Insurance Act should be postponed for a time in order to give people a fuller opportunity of considering its provisions. We made that suggestion because we were convinced that unless further time were given people would be hustled—that was the expression which I think I used and which was used by others—into decisions which they might afterwards have much reason to regret; and it is evident from what the House has heard to-night that the danger which we apprehended was not an imaginary danger and that that process of hustling is going on, and going

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on very actively, at the present moment. It is going on—I am afraid I must say so—in spite of the extremely reassuring announcements made to us the other day by the noble Marquess who leads the House. It is to me inconceivable that the noble Marquess should have made that statement to us the other evening if he had been aware of the existence of the leaflet to which my noble friend Lord Heneage has called attention this evening.
Let me again remind the House of the noble Narquess's words. He said—
"There would be a further period of three months after July 15 during which a choice could be made. Everybody has a free choice until October as to whether he will join an approved society, and, if so, what, or whether he will become a deposit contributor."
I think my noble friend is amply justified in saying that this leaflet is not, consistent with the idea of a free choice. But before I say a word about the substance of the leaflet, may I be allowed to say a word about its form? I heard with interest my noble friend Lord Sanderson's suggestion that these documents which are showered upon us in such abundance should each of them have some mark by which they can be identified for purposes of reference. This leaflet is headed "N.H. Leaflet." By an effort of imagination one is able to say that "N.H." possibly stands for national health. I presume that other leaflets on the same subject are likely to appear. I want to know how we are to distinguish this leaflet from other similar documents. When we are dealing with Parliamentary Papers, as the House knows, there is generally a number in the corner which enables us to identify the Paper beyond all dispute. Now these leaflets are abundantly supplied with hieroglyphics of a kind, but they are not hieroglyphics which make it very easy to identify them. I have two separate editions of this leaflet, one received only this morning. One is dated "6–12," which I presume means some day during the month of June, and the other "29–5," which I presume means the 29th of May. That edition of the leaflet was public property before the noble Marquess the Leader of the House made his speech on the 12th of this month, and that is what makes it so extraordinary that his attention should not have been called to it. There are other interesting hieroglyphics. I find on one of these two leaflets the figure
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"2,000,000." I presume that refers to the number of copies that have been circulated. The other one is "4m," which by another effort of imagination I should say means that there have been 4,000,000 of that edition. That is a specimen of the way in which these papers are being scattered broadcast over the country.
Now I come to the alternative offered by the leaflet. The noble Earl who spoke for the Government just now insisted that there was nothing in the leaflet inconsistent with the idea of a free choice. I would ask the House to consider the actual wording of the document. On the first page the person who contemplates insurance is told that he must get his card before July 15 either from an approved society or from the Post Office, and then on page 4 it is explained to him that—
"It is of the greatest importance to every employed man or woman that he or she should join an approved society without delay, and so avoid becoming a deposit contributor."
That is to say, you explain to these good people: Here are two courses open to you, but do not be such a fool as to take one of the two courses; the other is the only course which as a reasonable human being you can adopt. If you put a paper of that kind into the hands of a villager it is surely, I will not say depriving him of his free choice, but putting strong pressure upon him to join an approved society and thereby avoid the drawbacks and detriments of becoming a deposit contributor which are explained with great force on the same page of the leaflet. Let us assume that the recipient of this leaflet, influenced by these arguments, makes up his mind that he has to look for an approved society. How many approved societies are there for him to join? Perhaps the noble Earl or the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack will be able to tell us how many thousands of people are represented by the associations and clubs which have already come in. I think I have seen it stated that there are altogether 14,000,000 or 15,000,000 people to be insured, and that the societies which have already come in for approval only represent something like 5,000,000. I am under the impression that these figures are somewhere near the mark.
LORD HENEAGE: They are quite right.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: And pray remember this, that among the societies which have come in and have obtained approval you are sure to find a very large proportion of the larger and more powerful associations, for obvious reasons. Their affairs are in good order, their officials are experienced, they have seen what they had to do and have done it; but that is not the case with the smaller local societies for whom Mr. Runciman expressed, and very properly, so much sympathy and tenderness the other day. They are puzzled, and feel it is a very serious thing that His Majesty's Government should come in and put, as I said just now, what really amounts to pressure upon their members to join societies which have already come in and obtained approval. The smaller societies have barely had time to consider the alternatives which have been put before them by the Insurance Commissioners. They received not very long, ago a most elaborate document setting forth the three kinds of arrangements which a local society could choose between if it desired to join a larger society. There was the process described as centralisation, the second process was described as affiliation, and the third process was described as association. I am under the impression that most of these smaller societies and clubs would prefer to come in under the third process, which enables them to retain much the largest measure of independence and individuality, but in order to come in under that third process they have to get approved, and by this leaflet they are being hustled into a decision as to the society which they might or might not join under circumstances which render it extremely difficult for them to arrive at a deliberate judgment on the matter.
The noble Earl on the Front Bench opposite referred to what was happening in a part of the country with which I am familiar, where he truly suggested that one of the larger societies was considering the question of allowing the smaller societies to join it. I do not for a moment suggest that there is any impropriety in that course; but when you consider what this process of reaching the rural societies, by which is meant the smaller societies, through the medium of the larger societies means, and that the people who have this leaflet in their hands are virtually told that they must make up their minds
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at once and go in hot haste to an approved society, I repeat that the amount of freedom of choice is very much restricted indeed. We are, indeed, reminded in all these conversations of a dictum of the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack. He told us the other evening that His Majesty's Government did not encourage the idea of postponing the operation of the Act because it was necessary for us to get into the water in order that we might learn to swim. Well, my Lords, a great many of these societies are getting into the water, and I am afraid their struggles may be of an extremely painful and inconvenient character, and may in many cases have results which they will afterwards have reason to deplore.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not think there can be any doubt as to the usefulness of these conversations, as the noble Marquess has called them, on this Act. A great many points have been brought out; some of them are large and some of them small, but I think all of them have been usefully discussed. Lord Sanderson brought up a number of points which are new to me, points of detail which showed that he had obviously been forecasting the future with great care. I can assure the House that note will be taken of these points and that they will be attended to. I agree with the noble Marquess that it would be well that these leaflets should have a distinctive mark, and that the leaflet which we have been discussing is defective in that respect. I suppose it was imagined that this leaflet would be of general application and would not be one of a series; but it shall be seen to in the future that there is no ambiguity about the identity of these documents. The House has been reminded that on the last occasion my noble friend the Leader of the House and I declared that it was not necessary to join a society on July 15 or for three months after that date, and it is contended that the leaflet which I hold in my hand is apt to be misleading on that point. All that my noble friend and I wished to do was to clear up an ambiguity which there appeared to be by stating that there was no legal necessity, and that no penalty would accrue for not joining a society on July 15.
I agree that the words of the pamphlet which have been quoted—namely, that "It is of the greatest importance to every

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employed man or woman that he or she should join an approved society without delay and so avoid becoming a deposit contributor," and that "If the insured person does not join a society he will have to become a deposit contributor"—might tend to induce a person who was not a member of a society to look round to see whether there was a society he could join under the apprehension that he would suffer if he did not join a society. I am not sure that that is not a good thing because he will soon discover that there is no legal penalty, and he will also find that it is to his advantage that he should join a society as soon as possible. I will tell your Lordships why. Under the scheme of the Act any person who is within the limits of age can join a society on the same terms as a young person. The reserves which the finance of the Act contemplates make good to the society taking the older life the additional risks which arise from his being older. But there is always this which remains, that anybody who falls ill before joining a society or anybody who is not in such physical health that the society would think it advantageous to have him as a member on the ordinary terms runs the risk of being rejected. The longer a man delays, particularly if he is not young, the more risk he runs of finding himself outside the society and being a deposit contributor. It is obviously, therefore, good advice to give to a man that he should join a society as soon as possible, because if illness overtakes him beforehand he may be thrown back into the category of a deposit contributor.
Then it is said that this will be prejudicial to members of a small country society which has not been recognised as an approved society because it tempts them to leave their small society and join a larger one. But there is no necessity for them to do so. The best course for those men is not to leave their societies but to continue with them until they become approved societies. They will all realise that presently. The process of recognition is going on at the present moment with such rapidity that I hope there will not be very many of these small societies left out after a few weeks from the arrival of July 15. But one can never, of course, be sure, because one never knows how backward they are in taking the necessary steps. Over 300 societies have been approved altogether. A large number of
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these small societies are coming in daily, and progress of a steady kind is being made for their recognition. Efforts are being made to get the small societies to come together, not for the purpose of federating them in such a way as to extinguish their individuality, but for the purpose of bringing them into the pool under some larger organisation for the purpose of the realisation of their assets. That was what the Commissioners had in their mind when they used the phrase about approaching the smaller societies through the medium of the larger associations.
We have been told that it would have been better had there been a further postponement of the Act beyond the date which has been so much in everybody's mind and which seems to be fraught with a good many terrors, but I cannot think so in view of the facts to which attention has been called. July 15 is probably a less inconvenient date than many others. I can conceive, for instance, that August 12 might be a most inconvenient date, and I can also conceive that September I might be a very tiresome date. People would have gone away for other purposes. It seems to me that July 15, when everybody will be attending to their daily avocations, will be the most convenient date. After all, what is it that July 15 brings with it? Merely the obligation to stamp the cards, and when the stamping of the cards has been done then there will be this latitude of time for the servant to select the society which he desires to join.
I am sure that we have not in this debate exhausted all, or nearly all, the minor points of difficulty that are likely to arise under this Act. In my humble opinion the difficulties will be colossal. We are about to go through this experience for the first time in our lives, but I believe that the scheme will be of great benefit to the population of this country. After all, foreign countries have faced what we are about to face, and as a result they tell us that the last thing they would desire to do would be to go back upon the system with which they have become familiar. We all must go into the water and learn to swim—I do not think we are in much danger of being drowned—and having learnt to swim I hope that we shall make such progress with the system that it will become second nature to us and we shall wonder how we ever got on without it.
LORD ASHBOURNE: My Lords, are we to understand from the answer which was given by the noble Earl opposite that instead of the leaflet which lots been so criticised to-day there will be issued what Lord Heneage called a simple and clear leaflet? The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack spoke of persons who had fallen into the mistake indicated as persons who were not to be taken much into account. I do not agree with my noble and learned friend. I have read this leaflet, and regard the first paragraph as open to all the constructions put upon it by Lord Heneage.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I did not describe persons who had been misled by the leaflet as of little account. I said that I was not sure that it was not a good thing that these persons should be induced to immediately look round for a society which they could join. As soon as they went to inquire they would, of course, find that they were under no legal liability to join an approved society at once.
LORD ASHBOURNE: Nothing could be clearer than the wording of this leaflet. The employed person is told repeatedly that he should join "at once," and at the close there is the statement that the penalty for an offence against the regulations is £10. But I will not further criticise the leaflet if we are to understand that the answer to Lord Heneage's first Question is in the affirmative, and that a simple and clear leaflet will be issued free from the criticisms which have been made.
I desire to put to His Majesty's Government the Questions standing in my name on the Paper—namely,
"To ask His Majesty's Government, in reference to the National Health Leaflet issued by the insurance Commissioners, whether they have obtained the opinion of the Law Officers as to the use of emergency cards. In the event of the employees refusing to take the emergency card from the employer, what is to be its fate? If the employee will not get a contribution card from an approved society or from any Post Office, or an emergency card from his employer, what is to be done? May any Post Office be used for the purposes of the Act?"
We all know, from the Press and public criticism, that there are thousands of domestic servants and employees throughout the country who have signified their intention of neither joining approved societies nor going to the Post Office for a card. What, then, is the position? The only position is to fall back on what the Lord Chancellor has referred to as
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emergency cards. The noble and learned Viscount said that these cards were to meet a temporary oversight. That is what we would expect an emergency card would be for. But I am putting a question, not as to an actual slip or occasional omission, but a sustained and definite determination on the part of employees to refuse to get a contribution card from an approved society or from any Post Office or to take an emergency card from the employer. What then becomes of the emergency card procedure? This procedure requires the employer to go to the Post Office and get each week a separate card which has only room upon it for one stamp. The previous machinery provided that the whole of the obligation of the employer was to make a payment and affix stamps. I am not questioning that. But here for the first time comes in the obligation on the employer, in addition to making the payments and putting on the stamps, to get an emergency card himself. I ask—and it is not an unreasonable request—whether the legality of that new obligation cast upon the employer has been considered by the Law Officers. I understand that the suggestion is that the employer is to get this emergency card—he may have to get it week after week and month after month for many a long day. And after he has obtained the emergency card and stamped it he has to go to the domestic servant who has refused up to then to get a card and hand him or her the emergency card. Supposing the domestic servant says, "I don't want your card. I don't believe in the Act. I am not going to mix myself up in the matter at all." What is the position then? Is there any further obligation upon anybody? The employer has performed to the last the obligations upon him. He has obtained the emergency card at the Post Office and stamped it, and has searched out the negligent employee who had refused to get a card. Is there any further suggestion as to what the employer is to do? If the card never finds its way to the Post Office what will be the position? I do not see any reference to this in all these leaflets, though I have read them with interest; they vary so much that one's interest grows in them. The noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack said the difficulties were colossal. I cannot better that word. The difficulties are growing, and it would take a first-class prophet to indicate how many difficulties are likely to occur between this day and July 15.
LORD HENEAGE: I wish to ask one practical question, in no hostility to the Act but rather the contrary. I cannot understand from what has been said either by Lord Liverpool or the Lord Chancellor what is the position at the present moment of the small societies. Are they going to be approved or not, and, if so, when? There are a large number of these small sick and slate clubs in Lincolnshire, and when the official lecturer was down there he told them that the best thing to do was to apply to be approved and when they had each been approved individually they could join together for pooling purposes as one society. A large number of these small societies have applied to be approved, but, so far as know, not one single society has received an answer to its application. One society on my own estate with a membership of 300 applied some months ago, but are still without an answer. An endeavour has been made to start in Lincolnshire a society for domestic servants and rural workers which shall give to these two classes the benefits most suitable to them, and I have been asked to be a trustee of that society. I want to know when we are going to be able to begin. It appears from the statements that have been made to-day on behalf of the Government that these small rural societies are not to be approved individually but are to wait until they have been swallowed up by the bigger societies.
THE EARL or LIVERPOOL: I tried to make it clear that there is no intention of swallowing up these small societies. The actual applications are coming in day after day from all over the country. When these societies make application to be approved the applications will be considered.
LORD HENEAGE: When will the small societies which applied to be approved before, say, May I, receive an answer to their application?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: If the noble Lord will put a Question upon that matter on the Paper I will endeavour to give him an answer.
LORD SHEFFIELD: My Lords, I think the questions which have been asked in connection with this Act, which we all have to co-operate in working and making succeed as far as possible, are not questions
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for discussion on the floor of the House, but rather for direct representation to the Commissioners. I agree to a great extent with what the noble Marquess who leads the Opposition has said about this leaflet. I think it undoubtedly suggests to ignorant people that they ough6 at once to join some approved society although for some particular classes of people it might be better to wait. At the same time I recognise that, as a matter of administration, it would be, most impolitic to encourage the average contributor to wait. In the case of the average man I think the sooner he joins an approved society the better, and within the limits of fairly letting him know what his rights are I think the more the Commissioners can stimulate activity and move people in this direction the better. In the case of domestic servants it is very important that a society should be formed which should frame benefits specially applicable to them, and they would not act prudently if they rushed in to join any society before they had an opportunity of knowing whether it would give them the best benefits. It is prudent and wise that certain classes of persons should pause and not insure themselves in particular societies at the very earliest moment but should take advantage of the intermediate time which is allowed.
There is a group of societies interested in this Act who ought to be allowed time, and that especially applies to the small rural societies. The societies which have already become approved are mainly the great affiliated orders. They are bodies which have secretaries and complete organisations, and they have been looking at the measure for the past six or eight months and commenced their preparations even before the Act became law. But that is not the case with the small village clubs and bodies of that sort, and in connection with them time should be allowed. Some of the people who might naturally have been expected to advise the members of these rural clubs have been more occupied in the controversial aspects of the Act than in the question of how the Act should be got to work. Consequently there has been a little delay in bringing that educated assistance to these clubs which would have helped them to adjust themselves to the new conditions. I entirely sympathise with the point raised by Lord Heneage that the Commissioners ought to hurry

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forward and let these societies know as quickly as possible whether they are approved. The Commissioners are, of course, bound to a certain extent. I believe the society or group of societies must number 5,000 members. The small societies must pool together in some form of affiliation before they can get approved. I should be very sorry to see undue pressure put upon these small local societies to become absorbed in the larger societies.
This, however, is a matter which could be better discussed at the offices of the Commissioners. Noble Lords would then get the information which would enable them to go down to their neighbourhoods and talk to the people who look to them for advice. At the same time we do not wish to encourage other persons to delay joining an approved society until the last moment. There will not be, I understand, any serious loss to a man if he even dawdles on beyond October 15. I take it that a man may at any time pass from being a deposit contributor and join a society, and if a man of twenty or twenty-five years of age does not join for six months or a year he will not suffer any appreciable loss. There might be some slight loss, but he would not suffer greater loss than might be thought a fair penalty for his delay in joining. In the same way a society can become an approved society at any time. Therefore I think we ought not to exaggerate the dangers and difficulties which will affect the people who are going to be insured even if they do outstrip the limit of time which the Act allows them as initial members. I feel that we ought to try and get as many good sound societies in and on as easy terms as possible. I was, however, surprised to hear Lord Heneage clamour for the recognition of slate clubs. Such clubs are conducted on an unsound and unfinancial basis, and we ought to ignore such improvident institutions.
It is one of the valuable provisions of this Act that there is to be effective control by the insured members over the management of the society in which they put their money. But it is impossible that there can be any effective control if a large number of contributors all over the country are induced to join a society through collectors and send their money to the London headquarters. In that case control and management by the members is a
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perfect farce. Therefore I should be sorry if the Commissioners, in framing the Regulations, make it at all easy for the requirement as to the effective control of the members over the body which administers their funds to be relaxed or to be made merely a theoretical requirement. If we are going to work the Act as much as possible through the friendly societies, as I hope we shall, we ought to make it easy for friendly societies to come in, and they ought to he told that if, in consequence of local difficulties or through not understanding the Act, they are a little late in coming in they will not suffer seriously in consequence of their being late. In this scheme of insurance we are undertaking a most gigantic business. We are trying to do in one year what took the Germans five or six years to lick into shape. But as we are entering into this scheme I hope we shall all do our best to make it a success.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, I rise to answer the Questions put to me by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ashbourne. In the first part of his Question he asks whether the opinion of the Law Officers has been obtained as to the use of emergency cards. I am assured that there can be no doubt whatever as to the legality of emergency cards. The Insurance Commissioners are given full power under Section 7 of the Act to make Regulations providing for any matters incidental to the payment and collection of contributions, and in particular for—

"(a) payment of contributions whether by means of adhesive or other stamps affixed to or impressed upon books or cards or otherwise, and regulating the manner, times, and conditions in, at, and under which such stamps are affixed or impressed, or payments are otherwise to be made;

"(b) the entry in or upon books or cards of particulars of contributions paid and benefits distributed in the case of the insured persons to whom such books or cards belong;

"(c) the issue, sale, custody, production, and delivery up of books or cards and the replacement of books or cards which have been lost, destroyed, or defaced."

Under the powers given by this Section the Insurance Commissioners have made Regulations, dated May 22, which provide for ordinary contribution cards and emergency cards.
In his second Question the noble and learned Lord asks what, in the event of the

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employees refusing to take the emergency card from the employer, is to be its fate; and also, if the employee will not get a contribution card from an approved society or from any Post Office or an emergency card from his employer, what is to be done. Emergency cards, of course, would only be used in rare cases—in the case of loss, for instance.
LORD ASHBOURNE: That is prophecy. How can you tell?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: If an employer duly stamps an emergency card, in default of the ordinary card, and gives it to his employee he has done his duty under the Act, and is not subject to any penalty. If after that the employee loses or destroys the card, or fails to join an approved society, or fails to take his card to an approved society or to the Post Office at the end of the quarter, the loss will be his and not the employer's. The ordinary employed contributors' cards can be obtained from any Post Office, though the voluntary contributors' cards, for which there will be a much smaller demand, will only be supplied at the larger Post Offices.
LORD ASHBOURNE: The point I directly put was this. Supposing a person does not lose his card at all but deliberately
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determines that he will neither join an approved society, nor ask for a contribution card from the Post Office, nor take an emergency card from his employer. What then is the position?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: The loss will fall upon the person who ought to be insured. The employer will not be in any way liable.
LORD ASHBOURNE: What then will be the position of the Government and the Insurance Commissioners? Are they going to take any steps in such a case as that to which I have referred?
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: Is it likely that these cases will occur?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Yes, constantly.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: I do not think so. When these people find it is to their loss and that other employees are gaining by being insured it seems unreasonable to suppose that they will act in the way suggested.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before Seven o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.