Lords Sitting of 11 June 1912

NEW LORD CHANCELLOR.
The Viscount HALDANE having been appointed Lord Chancellor—Took his seat on the Woolsack.

HIS MAJESTY THE LATE KING OF DENMARK.
The Lord ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY reported that he together with the Duke of Devonshire, the Duke of Rutland, the Marquess of Lincolnshire, and the Lord Burghclere had (pursuant to Order) waited upon Her Majesty Queen Alexandra with the Address of the House of the 16th of May last, and that he had received the following reply thereto, viz.:
"I thank you very sincerely for the Address of Condolence which you have presented, and for your sympathy with me in the great loss I have sustained by the death of my beloved Brother, King Frederick of Denmark.
It affords me great comfort to be "reminded of the warm interest you "feel in my domestic relations."
The Earl of CRANBROOK—Sat first in Parliament after the death of his father.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Great Eastern Railway.

London Trust Company. [H.L.]

Also the Certificates that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 1).

Water Orders Confirmation. [H.L.]

Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 1). [H.L.]

Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 2). [H.L.]

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

BISHOP'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
A witness ordered to attend on Thursday next.
BRINE PUMPING (CHESHIRE) BILL. [H.L.]
A witness ordered to attend the Select Committee.
WINDERMERE DISTRICT GAS AND WATER BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
BORDON AND DISTRICT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.

LAND DRAINAGE (LINCOLN WEST) (SOUTH DISTRICT) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL. [H.L.]
EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (KENT, &c.) BILL. [H.L.]
Committed for Tuesday next.

GREAT CENTRAL RAILWAY (GRIMSBY FISH DOCK) BILL. [H.L.]
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
Brought from the Commons.

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL. (No. 56.)
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL. (No. 57.)
GAS AND WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL. (No. 58.)
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed, and referred to the Examiners.

ALLAN GLEN'S SCHOOL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. (No. 59.)
CLYDE LIGHTHOUSES ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. (No. (60.)
DUNDEE HARBOUR AND TAY FERRIES ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. (No. 61.)
FALKIRK AND DISTRICT TRAMWAYS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. (No. 62.)
Read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a (The Lord Willingdon), and reported from the Committee.

MIDLAND RAILWAY BILL.
LONDON UNITED TRAMWAYS BILL.
SHIPLEY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
SCUNTHORPE URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL.
GLASGOW BOUNDARIES BILL.
GLASGOW CORPORATION (WATER) BILL.
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY BILI.
STAFFORDSHIRE POTTERIES WATER BILL.
BOGNOR GAS LIGHT AND COKE COMPANY (ELECTRICITY) BILL.
CARDIFF RAILWAY BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

ABERDEEN MARKET COMPANY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
GLASGOW AND SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

BELFAST CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
EVERTON, &c., DRAINAGE BILL.[H.L.]
PENWORTHAM BRIDGE BILL. [H.L.]
MERSEY DOCKS AND HARBOUR BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.

LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL.
DUNSTABLE GAS AND WATER BILL.
CHURCH STRETTON URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

ANCIENT MONUMENTS CONSOLIDATION AND AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
ANCIENT MONUMENTS PROTECTION BILL. [H.L.]
ANCIENT MONUMENTS PROTECTION (No. 2) BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have appointed a Committee of six Members to join with the Committee appointed by this House as mentioned in their Lordships' Messages of the 15th and 16th days of May last to consider the said Bills.

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT, 1911.
1. Provisional Regulations of the Insurance Commissioners as to the determination of questions under Section 66 of the National Insurance Act, 1911;
2. Provisional Regulations, dated 22nd May, 1912, made by the Insurance Commissioners under Section 2 of the National Insurance Act, 1911, as to claims for exemption;
3. Regulations of the Joint Committee as to the constitution of a separate section established by a society for the purposes of Part I of the National Insurance Act;
4. Provisional Regulations, dated 22nd May, 1912, of the National Health Insurance Joint Committee and the Insurance Commissioners acting jointly as to the payment and collection of contributions;
5. Provisional Regulations of the National Health Insurance Joint Committee as to the time for joining an approved society, dated 20th May, 1912;
6. Provisional Regulations of the National Insurance Joint Committee and the Insurance Commissioners acting jointly as to the payment and collection of contributions payable by an employer under Section 4 (4) of the National Insurance Act:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 63.)

SMALL LANDHOLDERS (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1911.
Return respecting: Laid before the House (pursuant to Order of the 15th of May last), and to be printed. (No. 64.)
IRELAND (EAST KERRY ELECTION PETITION).
Return respecting: Laid before the House (pursuant to Order of the 25th of April last), and to be printed. (No. 65.)

TRIBUTES TO EARL LOREBURN.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (THE MARQUESS OF CREWE): Your Lordships will have seen in the public Press some account of the regrettable circumstances which have deprived the Government of the services of their Lord Chancellor—circumstances, I am certain, regretted by no one more deeply than by my noble and learned friend who has taken his place on the Woolsack. Lord Loreburn's doctors had warned him that it was impossible for him to continue the heavy labours and anxieties inseparable from the office of Lord Chancellor without grave risk to his health, and they advised that he ought to resign immediately and take a thorough rest for a time from all business. Lord Loreburn has asked me to say that he resigns the Great Seal on that ground, and on that ground alone, and he specially begged me to convey to the House his most deep gratitude for the uniform kindness which he has received
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at its hands for more than six and a-half years. Lord Loreburn was in some doubt as to whether he ought not to show his respect for your Lordships' House by coming here himself and saying a word of farewell; but I ventured to assure him that the House would deeply regret if he was to run any risk of the kind, having been warned, as he has, against all exertion, because we should be sure that in saying anything of the kind, Lord Loreburn's feelings would have been most deeply involved. I am sure, my Lords, although we on this side of the House are in a small minority of your total number, that I am right in saying that regret at the absence of Lord. Loreburn's familiar figure and at its cause is by no means confined to noble Lords who sit on this side. I think, my Lords, that even those who had traced with great admiration the career of my noble and learned friend in another place would hardly have ventured to foretell how soon and how completely on coming here as Lord Chancellor he would win both the confidence and the regard of this House as a whole. We all knew that Lord Loreburn was a thoroughly good Party man. We all knew that he held his political principles with something approaching to religious fervour. We knew, too, his deep capacity for moral indignation at anything which he considered mean or wrong. Perhaps his possession of those very qualities might conceivably have created doubt in the minds of some whether on being suddenly cast into the middle of a critical Assembly such as this, with all its ancient traditions, Lord Loreburn would hold, as I venture to think he did, an equal balance between both sides, without, of course, ever in any degree hiding the strength of his own views on debatable subjects. It might have been doubted, I think, whether he would have been entirely able, as I may claim Lord Loreburn was, to estimate the meaning and strength of the position which his opponents might take up on any particular question. I believe my noble and learned friend succeeded entirely in winning not merely the respect but in a great measure the affection of the House as a whole. We all regarded him, I think, in the words of the familiar quotation, as
justissimus unus
Qui fuit in Teucris, et servantissimus æqui,
because I am confident that the recollection of Lord Loreburn's Lord Chancellorship will be that of a thoroughly just and

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fair-minded man. I am perfectly certain, too, my Lords, that the whole House will trust that during his retirement from political activity, which we hope may be only temporary, he will find some work to do which may be of interest to himself and which we may be certain will be fruitful and serviceable to his fellow-countrymen.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the reception which has been given on both sides to the remarks of the noble Marquess must have proved to him how completely we are at one with him in his estimate of the loss which this House has sustained by Lord Loreburn's retirement. The programme of this evening's proceedings promised to be a somewhat uneventful one, but it has brought us face to face with one of those personal changes which count for so much in our political life and which affect us so closely. We were all of us aware that Lord Loreburn was suffering from the heavy strain of the numerous official duties which he had to perform, but I do not think that any of us quite realised how much that strain had told upon him. He leaves office amidst the universal regret of all who have had to do with him, and we cordially join with the noble Marquess in the hope that the relief which he will obtain from official work will bring about a restoration of his health and enable him to take a not infrequent part in our proceedings. But the Woolsack will know him no more. It is for others to speak of the public services which he has rendered as a Minister, as a Judge, as the head of the legal profession. We think of him rather as we knew him in the capacity of Speaker of this House. It is no exaggeration to say that from the date when he came to us as a stranger, having, perhaps, one would have thought, not very much in common with most of us, he at once established a hold which he never lost upon the respect and, if I may borrow the expression of the noble Marquess, upon the affection of your Lordships' House. It was often our business on these Benches to differ from Lord Loreburn. Our standpoint was often quite another standpoint than his, but I can remember no occasion upon which Lord Loreburn did not meet us courteously and considerately, and upon which he did not show a desire to understand and to give due weight to our arguments, or on which he did not leave upon those who listened to him an impression
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of the complete sincerity of his convictions. The noble Marquess spoke of Lord Lore-burn's occasional fervour. We always felt that it was not a simulated or histrionic fervour, but that it represented genuine and sincere emotion, which he felt very deeply indeed. May I be permitted to add that I think the noble Marquess was amply justified in advising Lord Loreburn to abstain from imposing upon himself the ordeal—for it would have been an ordeal to him—of coming here to take leave of the House under such painful circumstances. One word more with regard to Lord Loreburn. Those of your Lordships who have the honour of holding the position of Lord Lieutenant of a county have every reason to look back with gratitude to the assistance which Lord Loreburn gave us in the important and difficult matter of the appointment of Justices of the Peace, and we shall always remember with admiration the determined manlier in which he set his face against the attempt to connect appointments to the local Benches with Party politics. If Lord Loreburn had done nothing else, I think for that alone he deserves the gratitude of this House. We can all of us wish for nothing better than that Lord Loreburn should carry with him into his retirement as kindly a recollection of this House as that which we shall preserve of him during the years of his official connection with us.
Before I sit down may I be allowed to offer to the noble Viscount, Lord Haldane, our congratulations upon his accession to an office which must, I think, have seemed to him the natural goal of his aspirations. The noble Marquess ventured upon a Latin expression. May I follow suit and say that there never was a happier illustration of the saying Cedant arma togœ. We all appreciated the untiring energy which the noble Viscount showed while he was in charge of one of the most onerous, and I am almost tempted to add one of the most thankless, portfolios in the Government, and we may be permitted to wish for him that the work which he did as Secretary of State for War—and unquestionably he did much hard and holiest work—may last, and that in that respect he may be more fortunate than some of those who preceded him. And perhaps most of all may we congratulate the noble Viscount upon his success, if I may use a military simile, in entrenching himself in a position where he will no longer be

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exposed to the constant sharp-shooting which he experienced so frequently from the Benches on this side of the House—attacks to which he never failed to respond with an amount of dexterity and resourcefulness which elicited our genuine admiration. We feel confident that as Speaker of this House the noble Viscount will in no respect fall behind the example set him by his illustrious predecessor.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, it would not be natural were I not to desire to acid something to what has been said by the two noble Marquesses, but my words shall he very few. I have had the privilege, the infinite privilege, of intimate friendship with Lord Loreburn, and no man realises more than I do or has better ground for knowing the strong moral character of Lord Loreburn and the combination of qualities which have made him the personality he is. I only wish to say that the feeling which is uppermost, with me just now is a sense of the difficulty of following adequately in his footsteps.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL.
Read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 66.)
METROPOLITAN POLICE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment, and to be read 3a on Thursday next.

IRISH CREAMERIES AND DAIRY PRODUCE BILL. [H.L.]
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: My Lords, the Bill the Second Reading of which I have the honour to move to-day is based upon the Report of a Departmental Committee of the Board of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland, and it gives effect to certain recommendations made by that Committee in the year 1910 on the question of the Irish butter industry. I do not think it is necessary for me to dwell upon the importance of the butter industry to
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Ireland. Many of your Lordships, at any rate those who come from Ireland, will recognise the important character of this branch of agriculture in Ireland. But I may say that there are in Ireland at the present moment no fewer than 700 creamery businesses and 164 butter factories. The importance of the industry has been recognised by the Board of Agriculture, and they have dairy inspectors who visit the creameries and give scientific instruction; they also have an instructional station at Ballyhaise, and in many counties itinerant instructors are employed to teach farmers the art of butter making. There is no doubt that the butter industry is a very important one to Ireland.
Owing to a great, extent, I imagine, to the exertions of the Department, Irish butter enjoys a high reputation for excellence, but its very excellence has been in some respects, as it were, a snare to the industry, because Irish creamery butter has been subjected to ninny fraudulent imitations. The result is that the reputation of Irish butter has suffered, and it is, I am sorry to say, regarded in the British market with some suspicion. In that connection there are some rather significant figures. In the quinquennial period ended in 1907 the export of Irish butter fell from 818,000 cwt. to 688,000 cwt., or in value from £4,000,000 to £3,670,000. There is in these figures some indication that owing to fraudulent imitation of Irish creamery butter its character and reputation have suffered in the English market. It is with a view to restoring Irish creamery butter to the position which it ought to enjoy and to preventing these frauds that this Bill is introduced. Of the figure of 688,000 cwt. which I gave a moment ago no less than 500,000 cwt. is Irish creamery butter.
I think it would be as well that I should state exactly what "creamery butter" is, and I will quote the words in the Report of the Departmental Committee. Creamery butter is—
"Unblended butter made from cream separated by centrifugal force from the commingled milk supplies of a number of cowkeepers, in premises adapted and utilised for the manufacture of butter in commercial quantities."
That is the description of "creamery butter" which the Committee adopted after consulting the trade both in Ireland and in England, and it is, I think, adequate

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and covers the whole ground. Creamery butter is defined as superior to any other kind of butter. Here, again, I will quote from the Report of the Departmental Committee—
"The superiority of this class of butter has now been well established in the markets, not only in the case of butter from Ireland, but also in the case of butter exported from other countries."
This is the modern scientific method of making butter, and the one from which the best results are secured. Indeed, it is the system which prevails generally all over the Continent and almost universally in England. But in Ireland, side by side with the development of this scientific butter making, there exists the old method of making what is called "farmers' butter"—namely, churning it in the ordinary old-fashioned way. This butter is almost invariably of an inferior quality to creamery butter, but unfortunately it is sold in many cases as creamery butter, with the result that the proper Irish creamery butter has been brought into disrepute. This is one difficulty with which the industry has had to contend.
There is another difficulty, and it arises from the fact that the practice of winter dairying is practically unknown in Ireland, with the result that the cream separating stations find great difficulty in getting any quantity, if indeed any cream at all, for the purpose of their factories in the winter, and they have adopted in some cases the unfortunate habit of importing foreign butter and sending it to the market as if it were creamery butter. The difficulty with regard to this matter arises from the fact that there is no statutory definition of Irish creamery butter. Consequently, although these frauds can often be detected, and I believe there have been prosecutions under the Merchandise Marks Act, the prosecutions have failed from the want of a statutory definition. The object of this Bill is, in the first place, to give a statutory definition to Irish creamery butter; in the second place, to prevent the fraudulent sale of inferior butter as creamery butter; and, in the third place, to enact provisions for the inspection of creameries by the Board of Agriculture. There is a further provision, to which I must also make allusion, which is equally important in this connection—the provision penalising the knowing supply of unclean milk and unclean butter. Those are the objects of the Bill.
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Now a word with regard to the methods of the Bill. Clause 1 gives a statutory definition to the term "creamery." By subsection (1) the term "creamery" is made a trade description applicable, in the case of Irish butter, to such butter only as has been manufactured in a creamery registered under this Bill, and has not subsequently been blended or re-worked; and the application of the term to any other butter is made a false trade description within the meaning of the Merchandise Marks Act, 1887, and such offenders are subjected to the penalties of that Act. In Clause 2 powers are taken to register creameries. These premises will be registered by the Board of Agriculture and Technical Instruction for Ireland as creameries or cream-separating stations. In Clause 3 are described what premises are capable of being registered as such, and your Lordships will observe that one of the provisions is that the creamery should manufacture butter in what is called "commercial quantities"—that is, not less than 56 lbs. per day. We have taken the figure of 56 lbs. because it is regarded in the trade as the commercial unit, and it is impossible with smaller quantities to ensure the quality of the butter being maintained. We have excluded from registration such premises as fall under the Sale of Food and Drugs Acts, 1875 to 1907. That provision applies to margarine factories and such like enterprises. It was felt to be impossible to include a business which carried on the manufacture of margarine, because fraud could not be detected if the premises were registered both as a creamery and also for the purpose of making margarine and other inferior butter material. Then in Clause 4 there are certain conditions as to registration which affect the position, structure and mechanical equipment of the premises. These provisions are inserted with a view to ensuring cleanliness and proper conditions. In the second subsection of this clause there is a saving with regard to creameries which existed before 1910, so that under any circumstances they will have a right to be registered. In Clause 5 are laid down certain regulations with regard to the creameries. Paragraph (a) requires that the milk must be separated by means of centrifugal force applied by mechanical power; and in paragraph (b) there are provisions requiring wrappers on every package indicating exactly what the butter is.
THE EARL OF MAYO: I should like to ask a question with regard to paragraph (b). There is a provision that if the butter is not so manufactured the package containing the butter shall be marked with words indicating distinctly that the butter is not creamery butter, or, in the case of British, Colonial, or foreign butter, that the butter is not of Irish manufacture. Does that mean that all butter of Irish manufacture must be labelled?
LORD ASIIBY ST. LEDGERS: The provision means exactly what it says. I do not see any difficulty.
THE EARL OF MAYO: English butter is to be labelled English butter, and Colonial butter is to be labelled Colonial butter. Must all butter of Irish manufacture be labelled also?
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: This only applies to Irish butter coming from creameries. In the case of creameries sending out butter which is British or Colonial they must state on the wrapper that the butter is not of Irish manufacture. That is all. I do not think there is any pitfall in that. It is a simple provision. The next point of importance is the question of appeal. Your Lordships will observe in Clause 9 that although the Department is responsible for the granting or withholding of licences—that is to say, registering or declining to register—yet any person aggrieved by a refusal of the Department to register premises may appeal from that decision to the County Court, and there is a further appeal to the Judge of Assize; so that no individual can suffer any grievance or assert that he has been unfairly treated, or that the Department has not sufficiently considered his claim to be registered. I think this provision gives ample safeguard.
Clauses 11 and 12 deal with the supply of unclean milk and unclean butter. Your Lordships will readily see that if unclean milk is supplied it obviously contaminates the whole of the butter manufactured on that occasion, and I think it is only right that people who knowingly supply unclean milk should be penalised. This Bill makes it an offence, and subjects the persons concerned to certain penalties, and the same is the case with regard to the supply of unclean butter. Powers of inspection are taken under Clause 13. They are the
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usual powers, but there is a further power in subsection (2). This subsection gives the Department the right to enter other premises than those of a creamery if they have reason to believe that fraudulent practices are going on there, and consequently gives them a chance of detecting that malpractice. Those are the main provisions of the Bill, and I hope it will commend itself to your Lordships. It is promoted solely in the interests of the Irish butter making industry. It is admitted, I think, on all hands that the Bill is necessary, that without it Irish butter is likely to suffer in the English market, and that the Bill, which in effect brings creamery butter within the definition of the Merchandise Marks Act, will have the desired effect. We shall, of course, be quite prepared to consider in Committee any reasonable Amendments which noble Lords may care to move, but I hope that the general principle of the Bill will commend itself to your Lordships' House.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
LORD O'HAGAN: My Lords, there are one or two points which seem to me of considerable importance, not merely to those interested in dairying in Ireland, but also to those interested in the dairy industry in Great Britain. I think your Lordships will agree that if this Bill could be brought into effect it would be of undoubted benefit to the butter trade. Doubtless the provision for the prevention of fraud will do much to prevent fraud, and as a whole I think there can be little doubt that it will protect the public against unwholesome dairy produce, at any rate so far as Ireland is concerned. But I should like to ask the noble Lord in charge of the Bill why the Bill is limited in scope to Ireland. It seems to me that the Bill sets up practically a trade mark for Irish creamery butter. In fact, it hall-marks that butter. It gives a guarantee for the purity of the butter and also secures that its manufacture should be under proper sanitary conditions, and so far as that is concerned, I am sure everybody will welcome the introduction of the Bill.
But, with regard to that, I should like to ask whether as a result of this hall-marking, as it practically amounts to, a really undue advertisement will not be

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given to Irish creamery butter and a distinct preference in the markets of Great Britain. It seems to me that this might act unfairly on English butter producers, and I fail to see why you cannot, by some modification, secure that this same protection as to the purity of the butter should be given as far as English and Scottish butter is concerned. It has been brought to my notice that the Butter Act which was passed by the present Government applied not only to Ireland but also to England and Scotland, and I should like to know why this Bill should not be extended to cover both England and Scotland. It may possibly be urged—and the figures given by the noble Lord confirm it—that there is more co-operative dairying in Ireland than there is in England, and that there is more need for this Bill there. At the same time, we must not overlook the land policy of His Majesty's Government. They have repeatedly announced their intention of assisting agricultural co-operation to the best of their ability; they have given grants in that direction, and have spoken of assisting land banks and so on. Surely creamery co-operation would be most valuable for the smallholders in those colonies which' the Board of Agriculture, through the Small Holdings Commissioners, hope to see formed in this country.
Clause 4 of this Bill, which deals with the conditions of registration, is doubtless most valuable from the point of view of the public health, but I fail to see why the public should not have the same protection in respect to existing creameries in England or those to be created in the future. Then as to paragraph (b) in Clause 5, to which Lord Mayo made allusion, it seems to me that one interpretation of it distinctly leads to the conclusion that it gives to Irish creamery butter a very special advantage in English and Scottish markets. If that is not so, I should like to ask what is the object of that paragraph. Clauses 11, 12 and 13, which deal with unclean milk, unclean butter, powers of inspection, and so on, are obviously most useful in the interests of the purity of the butter and the protection of the public, but why under like conditions cannot the same principles be applied to British creameries? I, for one, fully realise the importance of the Irish agricultural industry. We all, I think, in this House realise its importance, and welcome any
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effort in legislation which would give encouragement to those interested in agriculture in Ireland. But it seems to me that in endeavouring to do the right thing by Ireland you run the risk of doing at any rate a certain, perhaps a considerable, amount of injury to the dairy farming industry in this country. As long as we have one Parliament for the United Kingdom, we should, in my opinion, have common legislation on such questions as this, at any rate where the relative interests of these kinds of trades in the different parts of the kingdom seem of equal importance one with the other. The noble Lord in charge of the Bill said that the Bill was introduced solely in the interests of the Irish creamery butter industry. I am sure we all agree with that. My only fear is that, instead of being merely in the interests of Irish creamery butter, it may be in the interests of Irish creamery butter at the expense of the English butter industry.
LORD PLUNKET: My Lords, in rising to say a few words in this debate, I do so as a member of the Committee of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society, which, as many of your Lordships are aware, was the originator and is the adviser and representative of the co-operative creameries of Ireland, of which there are now some 400, responsible for more than half the creamery butter which is made in that country, their turnover being something like £2,000,000 per year. The noble Lord who has just spoken complained that this Bill does not apply to the United Kingdom, and I suppose the answer to that is that our Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction and our voluntary associations are very much better managed in Ireland than is the case in England. My Committee share the views of His Majesty's Government and of the Irish Department of Agriculture, that legislation is required to regulate the manufacture of dairy produce in Ireland and to protect the sale of Trish creamery butter. We have to thank the Irish Department for the opportunities they have given us of seeing this Bill from the time of its birth—when I can assure your Lordships it was not at all a promising infant—until the present stage of its existence, a period during which it has been greatly improved. We therefore hope that your Lordships will give the Bill a Second Reading to-day.

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I must, however, guard myself by stating that there are, in our opinion, grave objections to some of the provisions in the Bill and when the Committee stage is reached we—that is, the Agricultural Organisation Society and those who think with it—will have sonic important Amendments to lay before your Lordships, without which I venture to think the Bill should not be allowed to go further. These Amendments have already been placed before the Vice-President and the members of the Department, and though the Vice-President has been able to meet us upon sonic of the points, there are still a certain number upon which I am sorry to say we have not yet been able to come to agreement. I earnestly trust that we may be able to come to such an agreement during the progress of the Bill through this House, because in these moments of heroic legislation and social cataclysms elsewhere I fear that it would be impossible to hope that the Bill could receive much attention in another place. Indeed, I presume that its only chance of passing through the House of Commons would be if it were accepted as a non-contentious measure—a description which in its present form the dairy farmers of Ireland, whether they be co-operative or not, could not admit for a moment as being correct. In the hope that in Committee we may be able to obtain assistance in the direction of altering the Bill as is desired by the cooperative associations, I for one am ready to vote for the Second Reading to-day.
THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I am delighted that such a Bill as this has been brought in, for at length we see a prospect of Trish creamery butter being properly hall-marked in the markets on this side of the water. I was rather astonished that the noble Lord, Lord O'Hagan, found fault with the Bill on the ground that it did not apply to England. I think the answer to that is that English creamery owners are quite able to take care of themselves in regard to this matter. In my opinion one of the most important provisions in the Bill is that dealing with the supply of unclean and contaminated milk, and making persons who are guilty of the offence of knowingly supplying or knowingly accepting unclean milk liable to penalties, for we know that one of the causes of tuberculosis is the use of unclean and contaminated milk in the making of butter. I should like to ask the noble
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Lord opposite to explain subsection (2) of Clause 12, which runs—
"If any unclean butter is found in a butter factory or margarine factory in Ireland, the occupier of the factory shall be guilty of an offence under this Act, unless be proves to the satisfaction of the Court that the butter was not intended to be blended, re-worked, or treated is the factory."
Surely if unclean butter is found in a butter or margarine factory the person concerned ought to be punished for having it in his factory. Persons are to be liable to punishment for knowingly supplying or accepting unclean milk, and I cannot see why the occupier of a factory should not be punished if unclean butter is found in his factory. I hope that the Bill will become law, and I trust that the Amendments which will be submitted will not be so difficult of acceptance by the Government that the Bill will be dropped, because it is of great importance that the Bill should be passed in view of the fact that, owing to the practices to which Lord Ashby St. Ledgers referred, the sales of Irish creamery butter have gone down. It must be 'remembered that this is one of our most important industries. Although Lord Ashby St. Ledgers gave credit to the Department, he did not give credit to Sir Horace Plunket and his workers for having started these creameries. He gave every praise to the Department for their work in this matter, but I should have liked to hear a word from him in praise of the work of Sir Horace Plunket. As I have said, I hope the Bill will become law, and that the Amendments which will be moved will be tendered in a manner and in a form that may be acceptable to the Government, because we badly want this Bill in Ireland.
LORD PLUNKET: My Lords, I should like to make a personal explanation. I did not hear Lord Ashby St. Ledgers say that the production of Irish butter had gone down. If he did say so, the statement should not be allowed to go without an answer. I will not venture to say more than that such a statement, if it were made, is entirely a mistake. The fact is that our own creameries five years ago were getting 100·8 for their butter; they are now getting 107·5; and their increase in output for the period is 25 per cent. I think the explanation of the reduction in the export of Irish creamery butter is to be found in the fact that very much more creamery butter is now consumed in Ireland than was consumed there before.
LORD ASHBOURNE: My Lords, I have no doubt that this Bill will be accorded a Second Reading, and I should be very sorry if it were not so. I am sure that the objects of the Bill are good, and that it will have the effect, when passed—as I hope it will be, possibly in an amended shape—of improving the Irish butter industry. Irish butter is about as good butter as you can find in any part of the globe. I am an Irishman, and am entitled to make that statement. I was greatly amused at hearing one of my noble friends allude to-day to a possible non-contentious Irish Bill. That would be rather a novelty. I would be glad myself to sec occasionally an Irish Bill which was unopposed. The Department of Agriculture have made amendments and changes in this Bill in deference to opinions that have been expressed, but any one who has read the criticisms of the Bill and also the proceedings of the deputation received by the head of the Department will see that there are matters still in controversy. Those matters may be dealt with in the form of Amendments, and when the Amendments are put down I have every hope that they will be reasonably and fairly considered and that there will be every desire to meet them, so that the Bill may leave this House in a shape which will be likely to make it acceptable when it goes elsewhere.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: My Lords, I am sure nobody will complain of the fact that the noble and learned Lord on the Front Bench opposite said a good word in favour of Irish creamery butter.
LORD ASHBOURNE: It is the truth.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I entirely agree with the noble and learned Lord, although I remember a famous saying of Dr. Johnson—I think he was comparing the Irish to Scots to the advantage of the latter—that the Irish were a fair people who never said anything good of each other or of their country. The noble and learned Lord opposite has, I am glad to think, entirely departed from that rule, if it was a rule.
LORD ASHBOURNE: It was not a rule at all.
THE MARQUESS OF CREWE: I was only quoting Dr. Johnson, the noble and learned Lord will remember. I am sure that my noble friend in charge of the Bill has a right to be gratified at the general reception with which this Bill has met, and he will. I am certain, particularly appreciate the observation of the noble Earl on the second Bench opposite (Lord Mayo), who said he trusted that such Amendments as noble Lords might place on the Paper would not be of a character which it would be impossible for the Government to accept, and which therefore might possibly imperil the passing of the Bill. I trust that there is no probability that any attempt will be made to subvert in any degree the principle of the Bill. I entirely agree that this creamery industry—as to which, as the noble Earl opposite has said, great credit is due to Sir Horace Plunket for his unwearying exertions in former years—is one which it is worth while to make every effort to support and to extend. The noble Lord opposite asked how it is that this is not made a general Bill applying to the United Kingdom as a whole rather than to Ireland only. I take it that the answer to that is that the particular grievances and difficulties which this Bill is intended to meet—namely, that of the lowering of the standard of creamery butter by either blending with it inferior forms of butter, or of selling in the winter farmers' butter as creamery butter—do not exist, or if they exist at all exist to a very small extent, in England. What may be the case in Scotland I do not know, but I have no doubt there are noble Lords opposite who can tell us. But if a case could be made for the extension of this principle to other parts of the United Kingdom there is no reason why the scope of the Bill, or at any rate the scope of the legislation, should not be enlarged in that direction. The criticisms which have been made on certain points of the Bill will, of course, receive close attention from my noble friend behind me when the Bill comes into Committee, and I can say on behalf of the Government that every effort will be made from this side to meet any reasonable objection which can be brought against any of the provisions in the Bill, provided—and I think this is important—that the safeguards which the Bill offers are in no way materially weakened.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I do not desire to delay the Second Reading of the Bill for a moment. I think there is a general concurrence both ns to the importance of the Irish creamery industry and as to the necessity of placing it under somewhat strict regulations if it is really to flourish and if a high standard of excellence is to be maintained for the product of Irish dairies. Those regulations will, of course, in the first instance press somewhat severely upon parties who have not been used to them. I therefore rather welcome the provision, which I find in Clause 4, under which creameries which were going concerns in the year 1910 are given until 1916 to set their house in order. I do not think four years is at all too long when you come to requiring these people to put up new plant and equipment, but I must say four years seems a considerable period of grace when you conic to such matters as the removal of cesspools, manure heaps, pigsties, and so forth, or when you come to the condition that the premises and plant are to be kept in a state of cleanliness and repair. I do not think the parties in charge of a creamery are entitled to a period so long as four years in which to set their house in order in those modest respects.
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I will not press the noble Lord for an answer now, but I dare say he will consider the point before we reach the Committee stage.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: My Lords, I wish to explain that the figures I gave did not have reference to the production of butter, but to the export. It was the export of Irish butter which had fallen in the quinquennial period. With regard to the points which the noble Marquess and others have raised, I will give them my best consideration. I think the suggestion made by the noble Marquess seems a reasonable one. I do not know why the regulations should not be relaxed in some particulars only in respect of existing creameries.
On Question Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.

MOVABLE DWELLINGS BILL. [H.L.]
Amendment reported (according to Order) and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.