HL Deb 16 July 1912 vol 12 cc514-26

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Earl Beauchamp.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Right of Trustees holding Leasehold Interest in place of Worship to acquire Freehold.

1.—(1) Where premises held under a lease to which this Act applies are held upon trust to be used for the purposes of a place of worship, whether in conjunction with other purposes or not, and the premises are being used in accordance with the terms of the trust, the trustees, notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary (not being an agreement against the enlargement of the leasehold interest into a freehold contained in a lease granted or made before the passing of this Act),shall have the right as incident to their leasehold interest to enlarge that interest into a fee simple, and for that purpose to acquire the freehold and all intermediate reversions:

Provided that—

  1. (a) if the premises exceed two acres in extent the trustees shall not be entitled to exercise the right in respect of more than two acres thereof; and
  2. (b) this Act shall not apply where the premises are used or are proposed to be used for the purposes of a place of worship in contravention of any covenant contained in the lease under which the premises are held or in any lease superior thereto, or where the trusts upon which the premises are held include the use of the premises (otherwise than by a lessee or assignee from the trustees) for the purposes of any trade or business or for any purposes of a political character.

(2) The leases to which this Act applies are leases (including underleases and agreements for leases or underleases), whether granted or made before or after the passing of this Act, for lives or a life or for a term of years where the term as originally created was a term of not less than twenty-one years, whether determinable on a life or lives or not.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I have on the Paper an Amendment to leave out the word "include" in paragraph (b) of subsection (1) and to substitute the words "would allow." This paragraph ends with the words— or where the trusts upon which the premises are held include the use of the premises (otherwise than by a lessee or assignee from the trustees) for the purposes of any trade or business or for any purposes of a political character. Those words were inserted by the Government as a concession to Lord Newton, but I think that if "include" stands they really amount to very little concession at all. Generally, I believe, trusts are silent on the matter, and therefore in reality the words would only refer to such trusts as contain a provision specifically stating that the premises might be used for these trade purposes. I suggest to the noble Earl that at the next stage of the Bill the words which I have read might be struck out without in any way affecting the Bill. The noble Earl, in an Amendment of which he has given notice, appears to me to meet my objection to a considerable extent, and therefore at this stage I will not move to leave out "include" and to substitute "would allow."

*LORD RITCHIE OF DUNDEE moved to insert at the end of subsection (1) a new paragraph providing that the Bill should not apply where the premises are situate on land which has been acquired by or is vested in the owners thereof under any Act of Parliament, Provisional Order, or Order having the force of an Act of Parliament.

The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to exempt from the Bill any site of a place of worship on the property of a public body. I am moving this Amendment on behalf of the Port of London Authority, but as no doubt there are many other public bodies similarly affected the Amendment has been so framed as to include them. The Port of London Authority and their predecessors have from time to time purchased property with the object of developing that property at some future time in connection with their docks, and there is on the property of the Port of London Authority a site which has been let, from philanthropic motives and at a purely nominal rent, for a place of worship, in the expectation that it will revert to the authority when it is required, or, rather, with the certain assurance that it would so revert for the purpose of developing the property. Under the provisions of this Bill those to whom this site is let can acquire it from us on the favourable terms embodied in the Bill; whereas the Port Authority, when the time came for developing that property, would have to re-acquire the site under the ordinary provisions of the Lands Clauses Act. I am sure your Lordships will appreciate that this would constitute a serious grievance for the Port Authority and for any other body similarly situated, and I hope the noble Earl in charge of the Bill may see his way to accept the Amendment.

Amendment moved—

Page 1, line 29, after paragraph (b) insert the following new paragraph: (c) This Act shall not apply where the premises are situate on land which has been acquired by or is vested thereof under any Act of Parliament Provisional Order or Order having the force of an Act of Parliament."—(Lord Ritchie of Dundee.)

EARL BEAUCHAMP

I think there is a good deal to be said for the particular instance mentioned by the noble Lord, but I hope he will allow me to point out one very strong objection to this Amendment—namely, that it goes a great deal further than the particular case which he cited. It goes so far as even to exclude from the scope of the Bill chapels upon sites included within town-planning schemes in respect of which a Provisional Order had been obtained. I am sure that goes a great deal further than the noble Lord intended. I suggest that he should be good enough to withdraw the Amendment now and bring it up on Report in some form which would effect his object without going to the extreme of excluding all these other chapels from the benefits of the Bill.

LORD RITCHIE OF DUNDEE

I am quite willing to adopt the noble Earl's suggestion. I withdraw the Amendment now, and will consult with him and bring the point up again on Report.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 1 agreed to.

Clauses 2 and 3 agreed to.

LORD CLINTON moved to insert the following new clause— . For the purposes of the assessment of Reversion Duty in respect of any premises the reversionary interests in which are acquired under this Act, the value of any buildings erected or improvements made by the trustees shall be excluded.

The noble Lord said: I bring forward this Amendment in order that your Lordships may consider the effect which Clause 2 (c) of the Bill has upon the incidence of the Reversion Duty. The enfranchisement of these places of worship which is contemplated under the Bill—that is, the enlargement of their leasehold interest into a freehold interest—is an occasion on which Reversion Duty will be collected. Reversion Duty is at the rate of ten per cent. upon the value of the benefit which accrues to the lessor at the determination of the lease and is paid by the lessor. The value of the benefit is calculated under the Finance Act in this way. It is the difference between the total value of the premises at the determination of the lease and the value of the land at the commencement of the lease calculated upon the basis of the rent reserved—upon the difference between those two sums Reversion Duty is paid; but the "total value," in the meaning of the Finance Act, includes the value of the buildings and other improvements. Clause 2 (c) of this Bill prevents the lessor receiving the value of the buildings and improvements in this case; yet though he does not receive them he would be compelled under the Finance Act to pay the Reversion Duty upon them. Therefore under the Finance Act Parliament compels the lessor to pay a duty upon a certain benefit which a subsequent Bill—this Bill—prevents him receiving.

To make this clear I have had some premises valued showing the actual effect of this measure in this particular instance. It is the case of a Congregational chapel and schools let in the year 1890 on a sixty-years lease at an annual rental of £5. On enfranchisement the valuation will be as follows—total value: site, £300; buildings, £2,200; total £2,500. From this sum, for the purpose: of Reversion Duty, has to be deducted the value at the commencement of the lease, calculated on the basis of the rent reserved (£5), which would be £150. Therefore the amount on which Reversion Duty would be payable would be £2,350, although the actual value of the benefit, now that the lessor will not be allowed to receive the buildings, is only the value of the site—namely, £300. Deducting from that the original value, which was £150, the value of the benefit is only £150, and the Reversion Duty at ten per cent. would be £15. So that while the Reversion Duty on the actual value is only £15 the lessor would, in fact, have to pay £235 out of the £300 he would receive. The noble Earl has been good enough to communicate with me on this matter and has referred me to Section 37 of the Finance Act, which he tells me will meet the point. This is a section which exempts the governing body of any charitable institution from the payment of Reversion Duty as long as the land is occupied for the purpose of their trust. Without attempting to argue the point as to whether the trustees of a place of worship under this Bill would be considered governors of a charitable institution, I do not believe that the section meets my point; because surely that section means that it is the governing body themselves who are exempt from the payment of Reversion Duty while in the case under consideration it is not the trustees or the governing body but the lessor, a private individual, who has his land compulsorily enfranchised under this Bill.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 21, after ("payable") insert the following new clause:

"Assessment of Reversion Duty.

". For the purposes of the assessment of Reversion Duty in respect of any premises the reversionary interests in which are acquired under this Act, the value of any buildings erected or improvements made by the Trustees shall be excluded."—(Lord Clinton.)

EARL BEAUCHAMP

I am afraid I have very little to say in answer to the noble Lord in addition to what I have communicated to him privately. The Board of Inland Revenue are certain that Section 37 of the Finance Act does exclude the lessor from payment of Reversion Duty in this particular case. The noble Lord and his advisers do not agree with my advisers and myself, and I am afraid we cannot settle a point of that kind across the floor of the House. It is obvious, if we inserted in one particular Bill a clause excluding one small class, that that would of itself create a presumption that everything else was outside and would not come within the exemption of Section 37. I am somewhat at a loss to know what suggestion to make to the noble Lord. That is the difficulty which we see—that if his Amendment is inserted it will create a presumption that other leases held under charitable trusts are not exempt. That, I am quite sure, is not within the intention of the noble Lord. I wish we could devise a system by which the Board of Inland Revenue could give some assurance to the noble Lord that the object which he has in mind would really be assured. How that can be done I am at a loss to suggest. But I venture to hope the noble Lord will allow me to communicate with him on this point, in order that, if necessary, we may deal with it on the Report stage. Meanwhile I can give him the assurance that we will not hurry the Report stage. There will therefore be plenty of time to deal with the point thoroughly before the next stage of the Bill is taken.

LORD CLINTON

I do not wish to press the Amendment now if the noble Earl will reconsider the point and communicate with me further.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

EARL BEAUCHAMP had an Amendment on the Paper, after Clause 3, to insert the following new clause— .—(1) If any person who appears to the Judge of the County Court to be interested proves to the satisfaction of the Judge that any premises the estate in fee simple in which has been acquired by the trustees under this Act, or any part thereof, are let or are habitually used for any purpose other than that of a place of worship or purposes connected therewith, the Judge shall, unless it appears to him that such use was due to inadvertence and will be discontinued, order that the premises, or such part thereof, be sold. (2) For the purposes of this section premises shall not be deemed to be habitually used for any purpose other than that of a place of worship or purposes connected therewith by reason only of their being used fir such other purpose not more than twice in any year.".

The noble Earl said: I have put down this Amendment in the hope of meeting objections that were raised by Lord Camperdown on a previous occasion, but there are one or two alterations which I wish to suggest in the form of this Amendment. I know that the noble Earl is anxious that we should exclude any possibility of the use of these chapels for political purposes.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

For any purposes except religious.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

Quite so. On the other hand, I am sure the noble Earl would not wish to exclude their use for purposes of meetings of friendly societies or in connection with, say, the Insurance Act. The noble Earl would, I am sure, not regard such uses as improper uses. Perhaps the best way to simplify my proposed new clause would be to omit from each subsection the words "other than that of a place of worship or purposes connected therewith" and insert before the word "purpose" the adjective "political." If the noble Earl will allow me I will move the Amendment in that form, and there will be plenty of time to consider it if he thinks it does not meet the case.

Amendment moved— Insert the following new clause:—

"Power to require Trustees to sell in certain cases.

".—(1) If any person who appears to the Judge of the County Court to be interested proves to the satisfaction of the Judge that any premises the estate in fee simple in which has been acquired by the trustees under this Act, or any part thereof, are let or are habitually used for any political purpose, the Judge shall, unless it appears to him that such use was due to inadvertence and will be discontinued, order that the premises, or such part thereof, be sold.

"(2) For the purposes of this section premises shall not be deemed to be habitually used for any political purpose by reason only of their being used for such purpose not more than twice in any year."—(Earl Beauchamp.)

THE EARL or CAMPERDOWN

The proposed insertion of the word "political" between "any" and "purpose" does come to me rather as a novelty, but at the same time I am sorry to say that it does not seem quite to commend itself to me. The noble Earl, as I understand, now proposes that premises which have been enfranchised should be allowed to be used for any purpose except a political purpose. What if they are used for dancing?

EARL BEAUCHAMP

I would be glad to insert words definitely excluding dancing or anything of that sort.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

Suppose the premises were used for a cinematograph exhibition. It is proposed to confer this great privilege in respect of these buildings because they arc used for religious purposes, and to extend it further does appear to me to go beyond the scope of the Bill. To allow these enfranchised premises to be used for any purpose except political is a considerable enlargement of the Bill. I think that the new clause as it stands on the Paper and not as the noble Earl has moved it meets my view quite sufficiently. At all events under that new clause if the premises are used for purposes which are not religious, then the Judge can order that the premises be sold. In that way you do not prevent the use in the first instance, but you provide a cure for the misuse afterwards, and to that extent I am quite prepared to accept the Amendment as it stands on the Paper, but not with the word "political."

EARL BEAUCHAMP

I admit that a dance or cinematograph exhibition would be an improper use to which to put such buildings. But take, for instance, the present great crusade against consumption. Surely it would be a great pity not to allow these buildings to be used for meetings held in connection with that crusade. We might say "if it was let for hire," or something of that kind.

LORD NEWTON

If the noble Earl's Amendment is accepted it would enable meetings of any sort to be held not more than twice in the year.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

That exception simply applies to political purposes.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I think that is hardly right. The second subsection in the proposed new clause proposes that "for the purpose of this section premises shall not be deemed to be habitually used for any purpose other than that of a place of worship or purposes connected therewith by reason only of their being used for such other purpose not more than twice in any year." I suggest to the noble Earl that he should insert in this subsection the word "any" so that it would read "any such other purposes." As the words stand, the building might be used twice for one purpose, twice for another purpose, and so on. The noble Earl said just now that I would surely not object to the building being used for a meeting in connection with national insurance. I really do not know. That might be a very good purpose, but it is not a religious purpose. As I said just now, I very much object to the scope of the Bill being enlarged. It is a very drastic Bill as it is, and I strongly object to any provision likely to enlarge its scope.

LORD NEWTON

This Bill is being passed for a particular purpose—namely, to enable particular denominations to acquire their places of worship. Why cannot we leave it there? The noble Earl in charge of the Bill wishes that the persons who acquire these buildings should be able to use them for other purposes. I suggest that it would be more consistent and give greater satisfaction to noble Lords on this side of the House if he would leave the Bill in its original form.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

Upon one point I feel very little doubt. If an Amendment dealing with the subject is to be inserted at this stage, I would prefer the formula which appears on the Order Paper to the altered version which the noble Earl in charge of the Bill has suggested. What we are talking about is the case of a chapel which has been enfranchised as a chapel, and the object of any clause of this kind is to provide that if, after enfranchisement, the premises are used for some purpose which by no stretch of imagination can be connected with religious worship, then the premises should be ordered to be sold. If that be the object of the noble Earl's Amendment, I venture to think that the original text on the Order Paper carries it out much better than the amended text.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

I would point out that this Bill has been passed on two or three occasions by your Lordships' House. The original purpose was to allow chapels to be used for the same purposes for which they could be used under the trusts, the idea being that a benevolent landlord had let the land, very often at a peppercorn rent, for the benefit of the Nonconformists of that area, and had allowed the premises to be used for other purposes than religious services. In previous years the Bill had been allowed to go through without any of the drastic curtailment now suggested. I admit that it is always unfair to propose an Amendment to this House without due notice, and as this is somewhat complicated, although it sounds more complicated than it is, I will withdraw the clause in the form in which I have moved it and will propose it as it stands on the Paper.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment moved— Insert the following new clause:—

"Power to require Trustees to sell in certain cases.

".—(1) If any person who appears to the Judge of the County Court to be interested proves to the satisfaction of the Judge that any premises the estate in fee simple in which has been acquired by the trustees under this Act, or any part thereof, are let or are habitually used for any purpose other than that of a place of worship or purposes connected therewith, the Judge shall, unless it appears to him that such use was due to inadvertence and will be discontinued, order that the premises, or such part thereof, be sold.

"(2) For the purposes of this section premises shall not be deemed to be habitually used for any purpose other than that of a place of worship or purposes connected therewith by reason only of their being used for such other purpose not more than twice in any year."—(Earl Beauchamp.)

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I have no objection to this Amendment, but I cannot agree with the noble Earl's account of what occurred previously. On the last occasion that this Bill was before the House the noble Earl will remember that he accepted from me the words "would allow" instead of the word "include," and those words "would allow" made it quite clear that the buildings could only be used for religious purposes and could not be used for any other. Therefore this House up to the present time has not allowed the Bill to pass in the shape in which the noble Earl has to-day proposed to pass it.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Definitions.

4. In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires— The expression "place of worship" means any church, chapel, or meeting-house used for public religious worship, and includes a burial ground, Sunday school, caretaker's house or minister's house attached to or used in connexion with and held upon the same trusts as a place of worship: The expression "freehold reversion" means the estate of fee simple in the premises subject to the lease held by the trustees and any lease superior thereto; and, where the premises subject to the lease consist of land of copyhold or customary tenure, includes the interest of the tenant by copy of court roll or the customary tenant subject to the lease held by the trustees and to any lease superior thereto as well as the interest of the lord of the manor: The expression "intermediate reversion" means any leasehold interest in the land (whether under a lease or underlease or under an agreement for a lease or underlease) superior to the lease held by the trustees: The expression "the County Court" means the County Court for the district in which the place of worship is situate: The expression "trustees" means the persons in whom the leasehold premises are for the time being vested for the purposes of a place of worship under any trust whether express or implied and includes their predecessors in title.

LORD CLINTON

I wish to say a word with regard to the definition as respects a minister's house. We on this side are quite content, where it was originally granted for a minister's house and is really part of the same building and held under the same trust as the place of worship, that in respect of the minister's house there should be the same power of enfranchisement. But there is considerable difficulty in this matter, because you may have a place used as a minister's house situated in quite a different part of the town, which was never intended originally for a minister's house, and which was so let on a sub-lease without the knowledge of the original lessor. I claim that it is a considerable hardship that a house which the landlord had let for a private residence and which his immediate tenant had sublet as a minister's house should be compulsorily enfranchised because it happens to be occupied by a minister. If necessary, I will bring up an Amendment dealing with this point on Report.

Clause 4 agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.

Schedule:

Modifications of the Lands Clauses Acts and Sections 77 to 85 of the Railway Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845.

(1) The use of the premises as a place of worship and for purposes connected therewith shall be deemed to be the undertaking or the railway and the trustees shall be deemed to be the promoters of the undertaking or the railway company.

(2) Section one hundred and twenty-three of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, limiting the time for compulsory purchase, shall not apply.

(3) If the trustees desire to sell the premises or any part thereof, or if they let or for valuable consideration use or permit to be used the premises or any part thereof for any purpose other than that of a place of worship or purposes connected therewith, sections one hundred and twenty-eight to one hundred and thirty-two of the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, shall apply as if the premises or part thereof were superfluous lands within the meaning of those sections, and as if section one hundred and twenty-eight of that Act read as follows:— Before the promoters of the undertaking dispose of any such superfluous lands they shall.…first offer to sell the same to the person who was entitled to the freehold reversion in the lands at the time when the interest of the trustees in the lands was enlarged into a fee simple or the successor in title (if any) of that person; and if that, person or his successor in title, as the case may be, refuse to purchase the same, or cannot after diligent inquiry be found, then the like offer shall be made to the person or to the several persons whose lands shall immediately adjoin the lands so proposed to be sold, such persons being capable of entering into a contract for the purchase of such lands; and where more than one such person shall be entitled to such right of pre-emption such offer shall be made to such persons in succession, one after another, in such order as the promoters of the undertaking shall think fit.

(4) The arbitrator shall, so far as practicable, in assessing compensation, act on his own knowledge and experience, but, subject as aforesaid, at any arbitration held under this Act the arbitrator shall hear, by themselves or their agents, the parties, and shall hear witnesses, but shall not, except in such cases as the arbitrator may otherwise direct, hear counsel or more than one expert witness on either side.

(5) The Lord Chancellor may make rules fixing a scale of costs to be applicable on an arbitration under this Act, and an arbitrator under this Act may, notwithstanding anything in the Lands Clauses Acts, determine the amount of costs, and shall have power to disallow as costs in the arbitration the costs of any witness whom he considers to have been called unnecessarily, and any other costs which he considers to have been caused or incurred unnecessarily, and, if he thinks the circumstances such as to justify him in so doing, to order that each of the parties shall bear their own costs.

(6) There may be contained in the award of the arbitrator a finding that the claimant, after having been requested in writing by the trustees so to do, has failed to deliver to the trustees a statement in writing of the amount claimed, giving sufficient particulars and in sufficient time to enable the trustees to make a proper offer, and, where such a finding is contained in the award, the provisions of the Lands Clauses Acts as to costs of arbitrations shall apply as if the trustees had offered the same sum or a greater sum than that found to be due by the award: Provided that this provision shall not apply unless the written request for particulars contained a notice of the effect of this provision.

(7) Land includes easements in or relating to land.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

I move to leave out the word "desire" at the beginning of section (3) and to insert "whether in pursuance of an Order by a Judge of County Courts under this Act or otherwise, propose," and to leave out "or if they let or for valuable consideration use or permit to be used the premises or any part thereof for any purpose other than that of a place of worship or purposes connected therewith." Your Lordships will see that this is not a matter of great importance.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 11, leave out ("desire") and insert ("whether in pursuance of an Order by a Judge of County Courts under this Act or otherwise, propose") and leave out from ("thereof") to ("sections") in line 14.—(Earl Beauchamp.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 121.)

House adjourned at ten minutes past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.