Lords Sitting of 10 July 1912

BARONY OF LATYMER.
Committee for Privileges met: Counsel heard to open the case on behalf of the Claimant: Evidence put in: Witnesses examined: Committee adjourned till To-morrow.

BARONIES OF BURGH, STRABOLGI AND COBHAM.
Committee for Privileges met: Counsel further heard on behalf of the Claimant Alexander Henry Leith: A witness examined: Evidence put in: The Attorney-General heard on behalf of the Crown: Committee adjourned till To-morrow.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that no Standing Orders are applicable to the following Bill:

Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation Provisional Order.

The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the five Lords appointed a Select Committee on the Metropolitan Railway Bill and other Bills do form the Select Committee for the consideration of the Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 1) Bill; read, and agreed to: All petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bill to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bill.
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY BILL.
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 24th and 25th of June last discharged, and Bill committed for Tuesday next.
TENDRING HUNDRED WATER AND GAS BILL. [H.L.]
  BRODSWORTH AND DISTRICT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.
STAFFORDSHIRE POTTERIES WATER BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
LONDON ELECTRIC RAILWAY BILL.
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
(Chiddingfold and District Water Order and East Surrey Water Order.)

GAS AND WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
(Swansea Gas Order and West Kent Gas Order.)
Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.

WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
(UNOPPOSED ORDERS.)

GAS AND WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
(UNOPPOSED ORDERS.)
Reported, with Amendments.

WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Re-committed to a Committee of the Whole Home To-morrow and Standing Order No. XXXIX to be considered in order to its being dispensed with.
GAS AND WATER PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
Re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported with Amendments, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow: And Standing Order No. XXXIX to be considered in order to its being dispensed with.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
  MILITARY LANDS PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Reported without amendment, and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
SHIPLEY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Reported, without amendment.
GAS COMPANIES (STANDARD BURNER) BILL.
Reported, with Amendments.
PIER AND HARBOUR ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 4) BILL. [H.L.]
Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection in regard to the Hove Order.
PUBLIC OFFICES (SITES) BILL.
Brought from the Commons.
LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (FINANCE) BILL.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
NORTH ORMESBY, SOUTH BANK, NORMANBY AND GRANGETOWN RAILLESS TRACTION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments.

WANDSWORTH, WIMBLEDON AND EPSOM DISTRICT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
AUSTRALIAN AGRICULTURAL COMPANY BILL.[H.L.]
STEPNEY BOROUGH COUNCIL (SPITALFIELDS MARKET) BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.

BEDWELLTY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
BELFAST WATER BILL.
PORT OF LONDON AUTHORITY BILL.
SCUNTHORPE URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL.
TAVISTOCK URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

BISHOP'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons for copy of the Minutes of Evidence taken before this House together with the Proceedings and the documents deposited in the Case: Ordered to be communicated with a request that they may be returned.

PIER AND HARBOUR ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 4) BILL. [H.L.]
(Hove Order.)
Report from the Committee of Selection that the five Lords appointed a Select Committee on the Metropolitan Railway Bill and other Bills do form the Select Committee for the consideration of the Hove Order; read, and agreed to: All petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bill to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bill.

NATIONAL INSURANCE ACT, 1911.
1. Provisional Regulations, dated 9th July, 1912, of the National Insurance Joint Committee and the Insurance Commissioners, acting jointly, as to the contributions to be paid in respect of out-workers;
2. Provisional Regulations dated 5th July, 1912, made by the Insurance Com-missioners—

I. As to the proceedings of Insurance Committees;

II. Providing for the constitution of the Insurance Committee for the Scilly Isles;

3. Provisional Regulations, dated 4th July, 1912, of the Insurance Commissioners as to the form of the certificate of appointment to be furnished to an inspector appointed for the purposes of Part I of the Act
4. Regulations of the National Health Insurance Commission (Scotland)—

I. As to constitution of District Insurance Committees;

II. As to procedure of Insurance Committees and appointment of Sub-Committees;

III. As to election of Medical Representatives on Insurance Committees:

Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 105.)

LANARK COUNTY TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
  ERICHT WATER AND ELECTRIC POWER BILL. [H.L.]
  Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
DOVER CORPORATION BILL.
  BOGNOR GAS LIGHT AND COKE COMPANY (ELECTRICITY) BILL.
  Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
BRADFORD CORPORATION TROLLEY VEHICLES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

METROPOLITAN RAILWAY BILL.
MIDLAND RAILWAY BILL.
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
(Tipperary Gas Order.)

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL.

  PIER AND HARBOUR ORDERS CONFIRMA TION (No. 4) BILL [H.L.]
  (Hove Order.)
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Morley, the Lord Dinevor and the Lord Sackville be proposed to the House as members of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Elphinstone, the Lord Basing and the Lord Swaythling; read, and agreed to.

  UNIFORM TIME (IRELAND) BILL. [H.L.]
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF S HAFTESBURY: My Lords, in asking your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill I need not, I think, detain the House at any length. The principle of the Bill is a perfectly simple one. The Bill enacts that there shall be an extension of the application of British time to Ireland—in other words, it brings about a uniformity of time between all parts of the United Kingdom. I ought, perhaps, to say by way of explanation, in case there are any noble Lords who are ignorant of the fact, that owing to the longitude of Dublin being 6° 20' 17" west of Greenwich there is, reckoning according to the moon four minutes to a degree, a difference of twenty-five minutes twenty-two seconds between the time of Greenwich and that of Dublin. The proposal in this Bill is to change that system and to have a uniform time, and it is a proposal which naturally must tend to unify the conditions of life between the two countries. At a time when the Government of the day are occupying the greater part of the session in passing a Bill providing separate treatment for Ireland under a. Parliament of her own for the management of her own affairs a proposal of this character may seem to some rather Utopian, and perhaps to noble Lords opposite somewhat inopportune; but apart from political grounds—and I submit that political considerations should not enter into a proposal of this kind—I think

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  I can prove to your Lordships that upon every other ground the alteration is eminently desirable in the interests of the public generally and also in the interests of commerce and industry.
  This is no novel or new suggestion. As long as sixty years ago the suggestion was put forward, and pressure was brought to bear upon the Government of the day to establish a uniform time. I am bound to say that during the early portion of those sixty years all the agitation came from the commercial communities in the North of Ireland. In the year 1850 a memorial was signed and sent to the Postmaster-General on the subject, and in reply he stated that he did not deem it expedient in the then circumstances to sanction the alteration suggested. At that time I believe the Postmaster-General could have brought about the desired change on his own initiative. But owing to some legal difficulty that arose in regard to the time of the signing of a particular legal document, an Act of Parliament was passed in 1880 which legally fixed Irish time as distinct from English or Greenwich time. In foreign countries and on the Continent the desirability of a uniform time has long been recognised. Indeed, it is not long that France, Spain, and Portugal adopted Greenwich time, and to suit the convenience of industry on the Continent of Europe there is a uniform standard of time for every fifteen degrees of longitude. As it has been considered expedient on the Continent of Europe to adopt a uniform standard of time, I fail to understand why it is that we have not come to some arrangement of that sort as between all parts of the United Kingdom. Is it due, my Lords, to an innate sense of conservatism or to the fact that probably the matter has really never had serious consideration? The fact, however, remains that there are some very curious anomalies with regard to time in the United Kingdom. Take, for instance, Penzance. Penzance and a good deal of the west coast of Scotland which is on the same longitude as Dublin have no difference in time with Greenwich, and even Stornoway, which is west of Dublin, has no difference of time with Greenwich; but in Dublin we find a difference of twenty-five minutes and twenty-two seconds.
  The Chief Secretary to the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland has received a great many memorials in favour of this change.
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  In fact, I really think that public opinion in Ireland is all in favour of a uniform system of time. All the chambers of commerce in Ireland, all the railway and steamship companies, all the county councils, urban councils, rural district councils, and the industrial and agricultural communities of the North, South, East, and West have approached the Chief Secretary for Ireland on this matter, and I believe the Government have given a sympathetic reply in every case. With regard to telegrams and telephones a uniformity of system would be, of course, of great advantage. I believe it is the fact that Greenwich time is applied to all telegrams which ate sent from Ireland at the present time, and inasmuch as telephonic communication between Ireland, England, and Scotland is very largely on the increase, it surely would be most desirable that we should have a uniform system of time. I believe I am right in saying that the Dublin Chamber of Commerce has adopted Greenwich time.
  There is another advantage which would be brought about by a uniform time. It is this, that there would he one hundred hours of daylight saved during the year, which, taken at twelve hours a day, would give the working classes, supposing the time of ceasing work is six o'clock, eight days more for recreation. As far as the saving of light is concerned it would, of course, mean a very big difference. One hundred hours of artificial lighting saved during the year would be a great boon to occupants of cottages and other humble dwellings. These, my Lords, are the principal reasons in favour of adopting a uniform system as to time, and I sincerely trust that your Lordships will agree with the principle of the Bill and give it a Second Reading.
  Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.— (The Earl of Shaftesbury.)
  THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I do not rise to oppose this Bill, but I must say I regret that it is proposed to change Irish time. Even if this change is made there is one gratification, and that is that we still have Irish miles, Irish stew, and other Irish things, which I hope no attempt will be made to alter. The noble Earl, in moving the Second Reading of his Bill, stated that all the railway and steamship companies had agreed to this extension of the application of Greenwich time to Ireland. I am told that, on the contrary, some of the railway companies do not at all agree to

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  this change, and that it will entail upon them a great deal of inconvenience in altering their time tables. The noble Earl said nothing about the Post Office in Ireland. What do they say about this proposal? After all, the Post Office is a most important Department with regard to time.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY: The Post-master-General is in favour of the Bill.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: If the Post-master-General is in favour of it, then I have nothing more to say with regard to the Post Office. But from opinions I have received from various parts of Ireland I know there is opposition to this Bill. I will not, however, divided against it; but it hope the noble Earl will not attempt to alter any other Irish things.
  LORD INVERCLYDE: My Lords, when I brought this matter before the notice of your Lordship's House last March in the form of a Question, I quoted the words which the Postmaster-General has used on this subject, and if you will allow me I will read them again. On November 7 last the Postmaster-General wrote—
  "I find that the change would be of some advantage as far as Post Office arrangements are concerned provided it is made general throughout Ireland."
  In reply to the noble Earl who has just sat down I cannot say that all the Irish railway companies are in favour of the proposed change, but I am prepared to say that all the big companies are in favour of it, because I have had communications from them to that effect. Personally I look at this matter entirely from a commercial point of view, and I know that there is a very general feeling in Ireland that it would be a great advantage indeed if this change were brought about. Nowadays means of communication have been so much shortened and so much increased that in respect of travelling we really are one country, and there should be uniform time. Moreover, in connection with questions with which we deal daily in commercial life I find mistakes often arise in consequence of the present difference of time. We are in communication by telephone daily with Ireland, and if a young clerk who may be telephoning forgets about the difference of time sometimes it raises serious complications. Again, under the Merchant Shipping Act we are obliged to keep a log of each steamer, and in that log Greenwich time is used; but there is a
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  provision in the contracts of those shipping companies which carry mails that Greenwich time must be used on this side and Irish time on the other side; and I have known occasions when returns have been asked for when confusion has arisen, and the voyage has either been made twenty-five minutes longer or twenty-five minutes shorter owing to this confusion. I am confident that if the House passes this Bill it will be a great boon to the commerce of the two countries, and will enable us to work more closely and more beneficially together than at the present time.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: My Lords, I should like to say a word in deprecation of the passage of this measure. I cannot but imaging, however, that it will be opposed by His Majesty's Government, because they have introduced into another place a measure enabling Ireland to deal with her own affairs, the discussion of which, though temporarily postponed, is to be renewed in the autumn. They will naturally think it wrong to take time by the forelock and decide a matter which ought most properly to be left for decision to the Irish Parliament. I am very strongly opposed to the creation of an Irish Parliament, but I think this is one of the very few matters which might safely be left for it to deal with, and I would therefore strongly suggest that we should not interfere with what would come within its proper sphere of influence. It seems to me that nowadays there is zeal for decentralisation where centralisation is desirable, and, on the other hand, for centralisation where decentralisation is allowable. As an instance of the former, might I quote the zeal which some people display to revive, if possible, dialects which are only spoken by few hundred people, and whose only merit seems to be that they enables one to retain a memory of the Tower of Babel, whilst other matters like this question of time are all to be forced into drab uniformity. At any rate I think in this case we have truth on our side, because the sun when it shines in Ireland, which it does not do very often, will bear witness to this last instance of Saxon tyranny and this new grievance which is being created for Ireland. Personally I object to being obliged to get up twenty-five minutes earlier that I should do otherwise; and as far as this proposal is concerned I must declare myself a Home Ruler.
  LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: My Lords, some months ago, I think in the month of March, a Question was addressed to me on this proposal, and then suggested that it might well form the subject of a private Member's Bill. Therefore I congratulate the noble Earl opposite, if I may, on having brought in his measure. I said at the time that I thought it would have the effect of ventilating the subject, and that though it was conceivable that the Bill might not get through in one session it would not do any harm to have the subject discussed. This proposal, as the noble Earl has said, is not a new one. It was first brought to the attention of the Irish Government in 1898, by I believe the Royal Scottish Geographical Society. The Irish Government consulted the Astronomer Royal for Ireland, who reported favourably on the subject and since then there has been a great volume of opinion forthcoming in favour of the proposed change. The attitude of His Majesty's Government upon this measure is that we offer no opposition to it, but in view of the fact that there is not complete unanimity on the subject we cannot promise to give it any special facilities or to make the Bill our own. The noble Earl who introduced the Bill made a speech which I think must have convinced the great majority of your Lordships of the wisdom and desirability of the proposed change. It is true that it has met with some opposition to-day in your Lordships' House. The noble Earl, Lord Mayo, seemed to think that it would affect the flavour of Irish stew.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: I did not say that.
  LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: And the noble Lord on the Cross Benches, Lord Oranmore and Browne, objected to it on the ground, with which I have very great sympathy, that before very long an Irish Parliament will Le in existence and that it might properly be left to that Irish Parliament to decide the point. I do not know that there is any national objection to the adoption of Greenwich mean time for Ireland, because a great many Continental countries have adopted Greenwich mean time. The noble Earl, Lord Shaftesbury, mentioned some of those countries. Let me add Belgium to the countries he mentioned. It has also been adopted in Gibraltar. The noble Earl referred to what he called the zones of time on the
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  Continent, and it may be interesting to know what the late Astronomer Royal for Ireland said on that subject. He said—
  "A glance at a map of Ireland shows that the meridian of 10 west longitude cuts off towards the West only very small portions of the counties of Kerry, Galway and Mayo. The local time for this meridian differs by forty minutes from Greenwich tune, and if the westernmost part of Kerry is considered the difference there is about forty-two minutes. Now I observe that on the eastern extremity of Austria the difference between standard and local time exceeds forty-five minutes; on the western boundary of Germany it is nearly thirty seven minutes; on the West of Portugal it is thirty-eight minutes; on the East of the Kingdom of Norway and Sweden it is about sixty-four minutes, and on the West nearly forty-two minutes; and on the West of Switzerland it is slightly over thirty-six minutes. I think these figures show that even at the westernmost part of Ireland the difference between local and Greenwich mean time cannot be regarded as excessive."
  That is the opinion of the late Astronomer Royal for Ireland, and so it seems that, whatever difficulty may be anticipated from the difference between Greenwich and the West of Ireland, in view of Continental experience it should not be regarded as a serious drawback.
  But there is a further point to consider. Of the two extremities of Ireland—the West and the East—the East is by far the more important both in the matter of population and trade, and the difference between Greenwich time and that of the East of Ireland is not forty-two minutes, but twenty-five minutes twenty-one seconds. This fact is, I think, appreciated by the inhabitants of Ireland. Numerous memorials and resolutions have been received petitioning in favour of Greenwich time for Ireland. I have in my hand a list of twenty-eight, which includes, amongst others, the Chamber of Commerce of Limerick; the Chamber of Commerce of Dublin; the Chamber of Commerce of Liverpool, which I think is significant; the County Council of Dublin; the Chamber of Commerce of Waterford; the County Council of Londonderry, and the Association of Trade Protection Societies of the United Kingdom. That is, I think your Lordships will agree, a considerable body of opinion, and there are others of less importance. The noble Earl, Lord Mayo, said that many of the railway companies were opposed to this change.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: I did not say that many of them were opposed. I asked the noble Lord if all the railway companies had agreed to it.
  LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I am within the recollection of the House, and I do not think that was quite the way in which the noble Earl put it. I should like to ask him which railway companies are opposed to the change, because we have not heard of any at the Irish Office.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: I heard that the manager of the Great Southern and Western Line disapproved.
  LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: Is that an official objection or merely the opinion of one individual?
  THE EARL OF MAYO: It is the opinion of one of the leading officials of that company.
  LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: However that may be, I think we may say that the great majority of opinion in Ireland, both commercial and residential, seems to be in favour of this change. The point was raised by Lord Mayo as to the opinion of the Post Office authorities. I understand that they are favourable to the change, and think that considerable advantage would result from it; but my noble friend Lord Liverpool will be ready to inform the Home what the official opinion of the Post Office is on the subject. The noble Earl was quite right when he said that in telegraphic communication the standard of Greenwich mean time is followed. Personally I am quite convinced by Lord Shaftesbury's speech, and I think that the facts as I have been able to state them support his view.
  But when we come to the form of the Bill I ask leave to suggest certain modifications. If the noble Earl had studied the Act to which he alluded, the Act of 1880, which governs and defines the standard time for Great Britain and for Ireland, he would have seen that rather different phraseology is employed. I think it would be very undesirable to introduce into a measure of this kind language which has no reference to previous Statutes and might cause confusion, and therefore in Committee I shall venture to suggest certain alterations, striking out such words as "official time." "Official time" exists in no Statute, nor is there anything in the Act of 1880 about "rules, regulations, proclamations, or other documents." The introduction of this language is unnecessary to the noble Earl's purpose, and it would be much simpler to stick to the language now on the Statute Book. Subject to these Amendments the Government offer no opposition to the Bill.
  LORD ASHBOURNE: I understand that all the representations which the noble Lord has received from Ireland are in favour of this change. I noticed, however, that he omitted all mention of Belfast.
  LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I took them in their order. I see on again referring to the list that the Chamber of Commerce of Belfast and the railway and steamship companies and many manufacturers and merchants of Belfast have petitioned in favour of this change. I thought that the mere fact that the noble Earl, Lord Shaftesbury, had introduced the Bill was enough to show that Belfast was not against it.
  THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, I desire to state the view of the Post Office regarding this Bill. The Postmaster-General has expressed the opinion that the suggested change would be of some advantage to his Department. But he has stated that his approval is entirely dependent on the action taken by the public in general and particularly by the large railway and steamship companies, and so far there has been no opposition on their part to the change.
  On Question Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday the 22 nd instant.

  PLACES OF WORSHIP (ENFRANCHISE MENT) BILL [H.L.]
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, I think it would be more convenient if we postponed the Committee stage of this Bill till next week. Your Lordships probably know that some Amendments have been put down, and there are some in the name of Lord Camperdown with which His Majesty's Government are not able to agree. I hope, however, to be able to suggest an alternative Amendment, and that when it is printed it will commend itself to the noble Earl as a substitute for the Amendments he has put down. Therefore with your Lordships' permission I would venture to suggest that we should not go into Committee this evening, but postpone the Committee stage until Tuesday next if that is convenient to noble Lords opposite.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I think the course which the noble Earl has proposed is the more convenient one. I understand that he has certain Amendments which are alternatives to the Amendments I have put clown. Those alternative Amendments have not been printed, and therefore I have not been able to consider them. If the Amendments were proposed on Report one could not, according to the rules of the House, speak more than once, and as it will be necessary to discuss these matters in detail I concur with the suggestion of the noble Earl that the Committee stage should be postponed.
  Committee of the Whole House (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Tuesday next accordingly.

  FACTORY AND WORKSHOP (No. 2) BILL. [H.L.]
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, in the absence of my noble friend Lord Salisbury, who has taken charge of this Bill, I move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Duke of Devonshire.)
  On Question, Motion agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly.
  [The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
  THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, there are a large number of Amendments on the Paper in the name of the noble Lord who represents the Home Office. They are of practically a drafting character and have been agreed to. In the circumstances I think the better course will be to insert those Amendments on Report to-day, and then re-commit the Bill and have it reprinted as amended.
  Bill reported without amendment.
  LORD STRACHIE: I have had an opportunity of consulting Lord Salisbury, who is in charge of the Bill, and he agrees
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  that the Amendments standing in my name should be taken en bloc to-day and that then the Bill should be re-committed for a subsequent day. I beg to move.
  Amendments moved—
  Preamble, page 1, lines 1 to 5, leave out the preamble.
  Clause 1, page 1, lines 10 to 14, leave out subsection (1)
  Clause 1, page 1, line 15, leave out ("February") and insert ("January")
  Clause 1, page 1, line 16, leave out ("thirteen") and insert ("fourteen, or such later date, not being later than the first day of January one thousand nine hundred and fifteen, as the Secretary of State may by Order appoint") and after ("underground") insert ("room in a")
  Clause 1, page 1, line 17, leave out ("so") and after ("used") insert ("for the purpose of any of the processes or occupations specified in the Schedule to this Act")
  Clause 1, page 1, line 18, leave out from ("suitable") to the end of line 19, and insert ("for the process or occupation named in the certificate and unless the regulations made under this Act or the conditions contained in the certificate are complied with")
  Clause 1, page 1, line 20, leave out ("underground premises") and insert ("an underground room")
  Clause 1, page 1, line 21, leave out ("premises") and insert ("room").
  Clause 2, page 2, line 3, leave out ("underground premises") and insert ("an underground room")
  Clause 2, page 2, lines 5 to 15, leave out from ("underground") to the end of the clause and insert ("room complies with the regulations made under this Act: Provided that if no regulations applicable to the case have been so made a certificate shall not he granted unless the district council are satisfied that the room is suitable in respect of the matters as to which regulations might have been made, and the certificate shall specify the means required as a condition of certification to be provided for securing the health of the persons employed in the room, and shall be made conditional on such means being maintained and properly used").
  Clause 3, page 2, line 16, leave out ("factory, workshop or workplace is") and insert ("room is used in contravention of the provisions of this Act, then, if the room is in a factory, the factory shall be deemed to be a factory")
  Clause 3, page 2, lines 17 to 21, leave out from ("with") to the end of the clause, and insert ("the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, and if the room is in a workshop or workplace the workshop or workplace shall be deemed to be a nuisance liable to be dealt with summarily under the law relating to public health").
  Clause 4, page 2, leave out the whole clause and insert as a new clause:
  "A Court of summary jurisdiction may on complaint, in the case of a factory by an inspector, and in any other case by the district council, and on being satisfied that as regards any underground room in respect of which a certificate has been granted the regulations under this Act, or the conditions contained in the certificate are not complied with, withdraw the certificate."
  Clause 5, page 2, line 33, leave out, ("or withdrawal")
  Clause 5, page 2, line 34, leave out ("an underground") and insert ("the")
  Clause 5, page 2, line 35, after ("workplace") insert ("in which there is an underground room")
  Clause, 5, page 2, line 38, leave out from ("underground") to ("the") in page 3, line 1, and insert (" room complies with the regulations under this Act, or if there are no regulations applicable to the Case, is suitable in respect of the matters as to which regulations might have been made")
  Clause, 5, page 3, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("a certificate of suitability of the underground factory, workshop or workplace") and insert ("such a. certificate as the district council ought to have granted").
  Clause 6, page 3, line 4, leave out ("are occupied as an underground") and insert ("comprising an underground room have been let as a").
  Clause 6, page 3, leave out lines 16 to 24, and insert as a new clause:
  "Enforcement of Act in Workshops and Workplaces.
  "As respects premises other than factories the provisions of this Act shall be enforced by the district council of the district in which the premises are situate, and for the purposes of this section any officer of the district council authorised in that behalf shall, for the purposes of this Act, have and may exercise in respect of such premises all the powers of entry, inspection, taking legal proceedings, and otherwise of an inspector, under the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901."
  Clause 7, page 3, line 25, leave out ("special")
  Clause 7, page 3, lines 25 and 26, leave out ("and is hereby empowered to make, alter, and amend") and insert ("make")
  Clause 7, page 3, line 27, leave out ("natural lighting") and insert ("of underground rooms to which this Act applies, and the provision and use as regards such rooms of means for securing the")
  Clause 7, page 3, line 28, after ("temperature") insert ("proper lighting and"), and after ("damp") insert ("dust effluvia and exhalations")
  Clause 7, page 3, lines 28 and 29, leave out ("arrangements for carrying off") and insert ("and the carrying off of")
  Clause 7, page 3, line 29, leave out ("in all other respects") and insert ("otherwise for securing the health of persons employed in underground rooms in the processes and occupations to which this Act applies; and different regulations may be made as respects different processes and different occupations, or as respects rooms which are used for the purposes of any of such processes or occupations at the time when the order comes into effect and rooms which are not so used"), and leave out from ("respects") to the end of the clause and insert:
  "(2) The Secretary of State may by order extend the provisions of this Act to processes anti occupations other than those specified in the schedule to this Act, and thereupon this Act shall, subject to the provisions of the order, apply as if that schedule included the processes and occupations specified in the order.
  "(3) Sections eighty, eighty-one, and eighty-four of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901 (relating to the procedure for making regulations as to dangerous trades) shall apply to the making of orders under this section.
  Page 3, after clause 7, insert as a new clause:
  "This Act shall not apply to any underground room used only for the purpose of storage or any other purpose incidental to the processes and occupations specified in the Schedule to this Act which may be excepted by an Order made by the Secretary of State, nor to any domestic factory or domestic workshop, nor to any workplace which if it were a workshop would be a domestic workshop.
  Clause 8, page 3, line 37, leave out ("of 1901 and 1907") and insert ("1901 to 1911").
  Clause 8, page 3, line 38, leave out ("and 1907") and insert ("to 1911").
  Clause 9, page 3, leave out the whole clause.
  Schedule, page 4, leave out lines 2 and 3.
  Schedule, page 4, line 4, leave out ("cleansing") and insert ("cleaning")
  Schedule, page 4, lines 5 and 6, leave out ("and any work incidental thereto")
  Schedule, page 4, line 11, leave out ("fancy")
  Schedule, page 4, line 12, leave out ("laundries") and insert ("laundry work")
  Schedule, page 4, line 14, leave out ("sale") and insert ("consumption"), and leave out ("coffeehouses") and insert ("other establishments for the sale of refreshments").—(Lord Strachie.)
  On Question, Amendments agreed to.
  Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

  FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government how it happened that cattle that were in a diseased state were shipped from Dublin to England for sale. In putting this Question I do not wish to say anything about the seriousness of foot-and-mouth disease and how the outbreak has practically dislocated the cattle trade both of England and Ireland, but I desire to draw attention to some occurrences which took place before the outbreak of the disease was reported to the Irish Department of Agriculture. On Saturday, June 22, cattle from a farm at Swords, near Dublin, were shipped to Liverpool, and on that very day a quack veterinary doctor, not a veterinary surgeon, was called to that farm and treated some of the cattle there for what he chose to call "timber tongue." In answer to a Question put to him in the House of Commons on July 3 the Vice-President of the Irish Department of Agriculture said—
  "We ascertained the fact that certain cattle which were sick had that very day been sent to Dublin from this farm. That is a fact of very great importance. It was concealed from the Department; none of the local authorities were aware of the disease on this farm."
  I quite admit that if the Department had been aware of this disease they naturally

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  would have taken the very stringent action which they have since taken.
  But the question I wish particularly to ask is this. How was it that on the day when these cattle were in the port of Dublin, before being shipped to Liverpool, the veterinary inspectors in Dublin did not notice that the cattle were suffering from disease? I am told on the best authority that when cattle land at Liverpool they are not examined; and the whole thing was not found out in this case until Thursday, June 27—five days after the cattle had been shipped from Dublin—when it was discovered by the inspectors of the Liverpool Corporation abattoirs after the animals had been slaughtered. They communicated, of course, with the Dublin authorities, who took the necessary steps. There is no doubt whatever that the disease was taken from Dublin to Liverpool and so distributed throughout the country, because all the animals were not slaughtered on arrival. I do not wish to blame the Department of Agriculture in Ireland in any way, because since they knew of the existence of the disease they have issued most stringent orders, so much so that at present you actually cannot even move a beast across the high road from one field to another in the counties of Dublin, Wicklow, Kildare, and Meath. I should also like to ask whether there is likely to be any prosecution in regard to this matter under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, because there is no doubt that the herd on this farm must have known of the existence of disease. Whether he knew it was foot-and-mouth disease or not, that is another question. I believe the answer given in the House of Commons by Mr. T. W. Russell, the Vice-President of the Irish Agricultural Department, was that if a prosecution would lie no doubt there would be a prosecution.
  We have not had foot-and-mouth disease in Ireland since the year 1884, and it is conceivable that a generation of herds and also veterinary surgeons have grown up who have not seen this disease in existence and are only aware of it from writings and from their studies. I therefore venture to suggest to our Department—and I hope the suggestion will be taken in good part—that a notice for the information of farmers and others should be inserted in all the Irish newspapers, and alto posted on all the police barracks, setting forth clearly the
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  symptoms of this disease. I am strengthened in this desire by the fact that the Board of Agriculture in England issued last week a description of the symptoms of foot-and-mouth disease. I wish our Department would also publish particulars of the symptoms of the disease for the use of farmers and others concerned in Ireland. I hope we shall have a clear answer as to the inspection of these cattle before they left Dublin. It has never come out whether or not some of the cattle actually inspected by the quack veterinary doctor were shipped from Dublin to Liverpool.
  LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: My Lords, the noble Earl asks, in effect, how it was that this epidemic of foot-and-mouth disease, which apparently originated in Ireland, was not detected by the veterinary officers appointed for the purpose of inspecting cattle shipped from Ireland. To answer that is to explain how it is an epidemic of any kind or description ever originates. The reply is that in all these diseases there is a period of incubation of greater or less duration during which, or during part of which, and especially during the initial stages of which, no symptoms exist which would enable anybody to diagnose the disease. Of course, when once aware that there is an epidemic raging people are more on the look out, periods of quarantine are established, and it is possible to hem in and restrict the epidemic; but in the early stages before any suspicion exists—and no suspicion did exist in this case—it is extremely difficult to detect the symptoms. That is actually what happened in this case.
  The noble Earl knows very well that all cattle exported from Ireland are subjected to veterinary examination and are branded. In this case the contaminated cattle coming from the Swords farm were purchased in Dublin Market on June 20 and were shipped on June 22. Therefore all the cattle with which they were brought in contact could only have acquired the disease two days and five hours previous to their being examined for export. The period of incubation in foot-and-mouth disease varies, I am told, from two to ten days; the minimum is two days, and I suppose the average lies somewhere between that and the maximum of ten days. Our theory is, and indeed it seems perfectly obvious, that in this case the disease had not declared itself in the minimum period

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  of two days during which these particular cattle had been subjected to infection. Consequently as there were no symptoms the disease was not detected. There is some confirmation of this view in the fact that the cattle which were shipped to Liverpool and examined on being landed there were passed by the authorities as sound; and, further, the Liverpool butchers who slaughtered the cattle failed to detect the disease, and it was only subsequently that some evidence of it was found in the offal. It therefore seems clear in this particular case that the disease could not have developed at the time when the cattle were subjected to veterinary examination in Ireland. Another batch of infected cattle were shipped to Holyhead and then conveyed to Oldham. Those cattle were slaughtered at Oldham, but no evidence of the disease was found there. In this connection I am told that it is quite possible for cattle to convey the disease without being infected themselves—that an animal may carry it without ever showing any symptoms of it; and it is quite conceivable that these particular cattle from the Swords district, which did, in fact, infect other cattle with which they came in contact, did not have the disease themselves and therefore would not show any symptoms which would enable the veterinary authorities to guard against the disease.
  The noble Earl has asked whether any prosecution is in contemplation. I am informed that the Irish Government have laid the case before the Law Officers of the Crown, and that if it appears that there is a case for prosecution a prosecution will follow. Then the noble Earl suggested that notices giving particulars as to the symptoms of foot-and-mouth disease should
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  be circulated in Ireland through the agency of the Press for the information of farmers. I will bring the noble Earl's suggestion to the attention of the authorities, and I have no doubt they will be prepared to give it favourable consideration.
  THE EARL OF MAYO: There is one matter that I am not quite clear about, and we have never had a definite answer upon it—namely, whether any of the cattle that were examined by the quack veterinary doctor found their way to the Dublin steamer. The Vice-President of the Irish Department of Agriculture said that cattle from this particular farm had been sent to Dublin on the very day on which these animals were examined by the quack doctor.
  LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I understand that three cattle from the Swords farm were sold in the Dublin market on June 20.

  PUBLIC OFFICES (SITES) BILL.
  Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.(No. 106.)

  NORTH KILLINGHOLME (ADMIRALTY PIER) BILL. [H.L.]
  A Bill to enable the Admiralty to construct and maintain a Pier at North Killingholme, on the River Humber, and for purposes in connection therewith—Was presented by the Lord Herschell; read 1a; and to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 107.)
  House adjourned at twenty-five minutes past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock