Lords Sitting of 8 November 1911

VISCOUNT HAWARDEN.
Petition of Robert Cornwallis Maude, Viscount Hawarden, in the Peerage of Ireland, claiming a right to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland; read, and referred to the Lord Chancellor to consider and report thereupon to the House.
BELFAST CORPORATION BILL.
Order of the Day for the further consideration of Commons Reasons for disagreeing with one of the Lords Amendments, read.

COMMONS REASONS FOR DISAGREEING WITH THE LORDS AMENDMENT.
[The Commons Reasons are printed in italics.]
Lords Amendment:
Insert the following new clause A—
For the purpose of any rate (other than Poor Rate and the Borough Rate) to be made and levied by the Corporation under the provisions of this or of any other Act within the City at any time after the passing of this Act, all lands used as a railway belonging to or leased or occupied by any railway company and constructed under the powers of any Act of Parliament for public conveyance shall be assessed and liable in the proportion of one-fourth part only of the net annual value of such lands respectively.
The Commons disagree to this Amendment for the following Reasons:—
Because it is inexpedient to alter in a Private Bill the existing public legislation as is proposed by the said Clause A.
Because there is nothing in the Bill which gives any ground for the proposed alteration of the existing incidence of rates in Belfast.
Because the said Clause A gives large, exemptions from rates in the case of particular individuals and throws a new and considerable burden upon others.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I think I shall save your Lordships time if I endeavour in a few sentences to bring up to date what has happened since you discussed this matter on August 15 last. Your Lordships will remember that Lord Shaftesbury, on behalf of the Belfast Corporation, made a proposal which he trusted might lead to a compromise, and in the hope that negotiations might follow the debate was adjourned. Negotiations took place in Belfast after the adjournment of Parliament for the recess, and have been continued in London since your Lordships met again. I am sorry to say,
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however, that they have resulted in no agreement—that is to say, the railway companies have not been satisfied by any offer that the Belfast Corporation have felt justified in making to them. All I need say about the actual offer which was made to the railway companies is this, that it went a little further than the offer made in this House by the noble Earl, Lord Shaftesbury, on behalf of the Corporation. I have seen the parties several times since the House reassembled, and I have become convinced of two things as far as my own opinion is of any value. I have become convinced that the offer of the Belfast Corporation as it now stands—that is to say, in the clause which I hold in my hand—is a reasonable one, and I desire to recommend your Lordships to accept that offer. But more than that I am convinced that the Belfast Corporation are not willing to extend that offer—in fact, that if this offer is not accepted by your Lordships the result will be the loss of the Bill; and on public grounds I. should regret very much the loss of a Bill which has cost a great deal of money in its promotion, and which contains many useful provisions which have no connection whatever with the point now before your Lordships. In the circumstances I would ask Lord Welby, who was Chairman of the Committee which considered this Bill, to concur with me in recommending the House to adopt the insertion of this proposed clause as the decision of your Lordships in this matter. I understand that the noble Lord is prepared to concur with me in making that recommendation, and I understand that the noble Earl opposite who represents the Belfast Corporation is prepared to confirm what I am now saying as to his offer. I would suggest that the most convenient course would be that I should move the adjournment of this debate until Wednesday next, in order that the actual words of the clause may be printed and circulated. If the clause then meets with the approval of your Lordships I shall be prepared, on behalf of the noble Earl, who has to leave the country on duty, to move its insertion in the Bill, and in that way, if your Lordships accept the clause, the Bill will, I hope, be saved and receive the Royal Assent in due course.
Moved, That the debate be adjourned until Wednesday next.—(The Earl of Donoughmore.)
LORD WELBY: My Lords, the Committee to whom your Lordships referred this Bill had a very simple object before them. It was this. They endeavoured to put Belfast on the same footing exactly as the majority of other towns in Ireland. That was their object, neither more nor less; and they believed that the clause which they proposed for the purpose accomplished that object and no more. As the noble Earl has just stated, the consideration of the matter was postponed from August 15 last in order that an agreement between the parties might be arrived at, but, unfortunately, that has proved impossible. I admit, however, that the Corporation has made a concession of some but insufficient value. After hearing what the noble Earl said and being alive to the responsibility of the loss of the Bill, which might happen if the clause which your Lordships' Committee inserted were insisted upon, as far as I am concerned and much as I regret the loss of the clause I feel that the proper course to take is to defer to the advice of the Lord Chairman and insert in the Bill the clause which it is his intention to move. For that purpose the best plan would be to adjourn the debate in order that the clause may be printed and circulated and adequately considered.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY: My Lords, I am very glad, as representing the Belfast Corporation, that the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees thinks that the offer made on behalf of the Corporation was a fair and reasonable one. The Belfast Corporation, as the noble Earl said, have done all they could since the adjournment to arrive at an agreement with the railway companies, but unfortunately, partly due, perhaps, to the generosity with which your Lordships' Committee treated the railway companies, they have been inclined to hold out for everything they could get. I have to thank the noble Earl the Lord Chairman for the view he has taken, and I feel confident that your Lordships will, when you have seen the proposed clause, adopt his suggestion and insert it in the Bill.
LORD MACDONNELL OF SWINFORD: My Lords, I intervened in the debate on the last occasion from a public point of view. I was not interested on behalf of the Belfast Corporation or on behalf of the railway companies, but I was interested in securing that the questions of public
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policy which are incorporated in the Acts should be properly considered, and that in the administration of the Acts no sort of violence should be brought to bear on one party or the other. I do not desire now to obtrude myself upon the debate further than to say that I regret that in the arrangements which may be come to these questions of public policy and of the inviolability of legislative provisions passed for public guidance stand in great danger of being forgotten. I think it would have been in the public interests if the whole question had been fully debated, and then your Lordships would have been in a better position to know what would have been suitable for the particular interests concerned and also for the wider interests of the State.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned accordingly until Wednesday next.

THRIFT AND CREDIT SOCIETIES BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Shaftesbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.
Clause 5:
Provisions of Rules.
5. The rules of a thrift and credit society shall provide—

(a) that it shall carry on business only within such area as may be specified in the rules (not exceeding ten miles from the registered office of the bank);

(b) that no part of its funds arising out of its business of banking, be divided among its members by way of profit, bonus, dividend, or otherwise:

(c) that all money lent to members shall be applied to such purposes as the society or its committee of management may approve;

(d) that the profits of the society in each year shall be carried to the credit of a reserve fund;

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(e) that the society or the committee of management thereof shall in each year fix, by resolution, the maximum amount which may be lent during that year to anyone member; and that the amounts so lent shall not in the year to which the resolution relates exceed the limits fixed by the resolution, except to the extent which may be permitted by any amending resolution passed in accordance with the requirements of the rules;

(f) that no member of the committee of management or council of inspection, or other managing and responsible body (by whatever name), or chairman of the society shall be paid for his services;
where a registered thrift and credit society has for one of its objects the carrying on of trade on co-operative principles, the rules shall provide—

(g) that no person other than a member shall purchase goods from the society;

(h) that the surplus derived from such trading shall be distributed amongst the purchasers;

(i) that separate accounts shall be kept of the trading transactions;

(j) that the reserve fund shall not be available for making good any trade deficiency, except to such extent as the other assets of the society may be insufficient on its dissolution to meet the claims of trade creditors.

LORD MONTEAGLE OF BRANDON: My Lords, the Amendments which I have ventured to put down to Clause 5 are, with one exception, of a purely drafting character, and I understand that my noble friend Lord Shaftesbury accepts them. The only Amendment in my name which is not of that character is an alternative to one which the noble Earl subsequently put down, and therefore I shall not have to trouble your Lordships with my proposed clause as the noble Earl's Amendment meets my point. I do not think I need say more by way of explanation than that the object of these drafting Amendments is to divide the clause into two subsections, the first dealing with banking or loan business, and the second with trading. That is accomplished by slight changes in the numbering.
Amendments moved—
Clause 5, page 1, line 24, at the beginning of the clause insert ("(1)")
Clause 5, page 1, line 26, leave out: ("exceeding") and insert ("extending further than").—(Lord Monteagle of Brandon.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY: I have a small drafting Amendment which is not on the Paper. It is to leave out the word "bank" at the end of paragraph (a) and insert the word "society" We call
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these banks thrift and credit societies throughout, and therefore this alteration is in accordance with the rest of the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Clause 5, page 1, line 27, omit ("bank") and insert ("society").—(The Earl of Shaftesbury.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Clause 5, page 2, line 7, after the first ("the") insert ("banking")
Clause 5, page 2, line 22, leave out ("where") and insert ("(2) Where")
Clause 5, page 2, line 25, leave out ("(g)") and insert ("(a")")
Clause 5, page 2, line 27, leave out ("(h") and insert ("(b)").—(Lord Monteagle of Brandon.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY: I move to amend paragraph (h) of Clause 5 so that it would read—
(h) that, the surplus derived from such trading may, after all proper reserves have been made, be distributed among the purchasers.
This is really a drafting Amendment and meets Lord Monteagle's view with regard to this particular provision of the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 27, leave out ("shall") and insert ("may, after all proper reserves have been made").—(The Earl of Shaftesbury.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Clause 5, page 2, line 29, leave out ("(l)") and insert ("(c)")
Clause 5, page 2, line 31, leave out ("(j)") and insert ("(d)").—(Lord Monteagle of Brandon.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
The Report of Amendments to be received on Thursday the 16 th instant, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 205.)

ISLE OF MAN HARBOURS BILL. [SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF GRANARD: My Lords, the object of this Bill is simply to give to the Harbour Commissioners of the Isle of Man powers which they do not at present possess to provide, work, and maintain

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ferries. There is only one matter in the Bill which I need bring to your Lordships' notice. It is proposed to raise the maximum duty to be charged as respects passengers embarked or disembarked at a harbour in the Isle of Man between the hours of 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. on Sundays. The population of the Isle of Man seem to have been very much overrun by tourists from Liverpool and Manchester, and it is on this account that they desire this clause inserted in the Bill. I may mention that at the proceedings of the Court of Tynwald on March 27 a resolution to this effect was carried without dissent. There is nothing else of any moment in the Bill. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Granard.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next

RAILWAY COMPANIES (ACCOUNTS AND RETURNS) BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF GRANARD: My Lords, this is practically an agreed Bill. The object is that the accounts of railway companies should be furnished annually instead of half-yearly. There are also other provisions in the Bill regarding the method of railway accounting. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(The Earl of Granard.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (STEVEDORES AND TRIMMERS) (No. 2) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(The Earl of Granard.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Power to arrest ship on claim for work done in stowing cargo, &c.
1.—(1) If it is claimed that any sum is due to any person from the owners of a ship for work done at any place in the United Kingdom by that person in connection with the stowing or discharging of cargoes on board or from that ship, or the trimming of coal on board that ship, and that ship is at any time found in any place in the United Kingdom or within three miles of the coast, thereof, a judge of any court of record in the United Kingdom may, upon its being shown to him by any person applying in accordance with rules of court that prima facie the claim against the owners is a good claim and that none of the owners reside in the United Kingdom, issue an order for the arrest of the ship.
(2) An order under this Act shall be directed to some officer of customs and excise, or some other officer named in this order, and shall require him to detain the ship until such time as satisfaction has been made by the owners, agent, master, or consignee thereof in respect of the claim, or until security, to be approved by the judge, has been given by them or him, to abide the event of any action, suit, or other legal proceeding that may be instituted in respect of the claim, and to pay all costs and damages that may be awarded thereon, and where any such order is made, the officer to whom the order is directed shall detain the ship accordingly.
(3) In any legal proceedings in relation to any such claim as aforesaid, the person giving security shall be made defendant, and shall be stated to be the owner of this ship in respect of which the work giving rise to the claim was done, and the production of the order of the judge, made in relation to the security, shall be conclusive evidence of the liability of the defendant to the proceedings.
(4) Where a complaint is made to the Board of Trade that before an application can be made under this section, the ship in respect of which the application is to be made will have departed from the limits of the United Kingdom or three miles from the coast thereof, the ship shall, if the Board so direct, be detained for such time as will allow the application to be made and the result thereof to be communicated to the officer detaining the ship, and that officer shall not be liable for any costs or damages in respect of the detention if made in accordance with the directions of the Board.
(5) Section six hundred and ninety-two of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, shall apply to the detention of a ship under this Act as it applies to the detention of a ship under that Act.
(6) If the owner of a ship is a corporation, the owner shall for the purposes of this Act be deemed to reside in the United Kingdom if the corporation has an office in the United Kingdom at which service of writs can be effected.
(7) In the application of this section to Scotland, "a judge of the court of session and a sheriff of a county," shall be substituted for "a judge of a court of record," and "defender" shall be substituted for "defendant."
THE EARL OF GRANARD: My Lords, since I asked your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill yesterday the Scottish Office have found that there is already machinery existing in Scottish

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law which makes it unnecessary to apply this Bill to Scotland. Therefore I venture to move three Amendments to leave out the words "United Kingdom" and to insert the words "England and Ireland."
Amendments moved—
Clause 1, page 1, lines 10 and 12, leave out ("United Kingdom") and insert ("England and Ireland").—(The Earl of Granard.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 2, line 11, leave out ("United Kingdom ") and insert ("England and Ireland").—(The Earl of Granard.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF GRANARD: I now move the deletion of subsection (7), which deals with the application of the clause to Scotland.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 2, lines 25 to 28, leave out subsection (7).—(The Earl of Granard.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2 agreed to.
LORD GORELL: In speaking on the Second Reading of this Bill yesterday I suggested the desirability of adding a clause which would give power to a person having a claim which he could enforce under this Bill to make that claim, if he so desired, by means of proceedings in the Admiralty Court. I suggested that those proceedings, if the claimant chose to adopt them, might afford, perhaps, a more expeditious way of proceeding to arrest the vessel and also a more expeditious way of enabling that vessel to be released, and the new clause which I now propose carries that out. This work is almost on the same lines as necessaries supplied to the ship, and the Amendment would not affect the other provisions of the Bill, but would give another, and, as I think, a better remedy.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 2 insert the following new clause:
Any person having a claim under the foregoing provisions of this Act may, if he so desires, instead of proceeding under those provisions institute proceedings in Admiralty for enforcing the claim, and all Courts having jurisdiction in Admiralty shall, if proceedings are so instituted, have the same jurisdiction for the purpose of enforcing the claim as if the claim were a claim for necessaries supplied to the ship.—(Lord Gorell.)
THE EARL OF GRANARD: His Majesty's Government are very pleased to accept the noble and learned Lord's Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF GRANARD: I beg to move the insertion of a further new clause after Clause 2.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 2, insert the following new clause:
. Nothing in this Act shall affect the power of any person to enforce any claim to which this Act applies otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.—(The Earl of Granard.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
The Report of Amendments to be received on Tuesday next, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 206.)

MARITIME CONVENTIONS BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MERCHANDISE MARKS BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, as there; is no business on the Paper for to-morrow or for Monday next, I beg to move that the House do adjourn, except, of course, for Judicial business, until Tuesday next.
Moved, That the House do adjourn, except for Judicial business, until Tuesday next.—(Viscount, Haldane.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at ten minutes before Five o'clock, till tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.