HL Deb 02 May 1911 vol 8 cc61-71

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Power to prohibit encampment.

1. Where it appears to any county council that the presence of movable dwellings on any specified place or places within the county would be dangerous to the public health, the council may by by-law prohibit any movable dwelling from being on such specified place or places.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My Lords, I have taken the advice which was tendered to me on the Second Reading of the Bill and have consulted with the Local Government Board, the Home Office, and the Board of Agriculture as to the objections that they entertained to the Bill, and I have endeavoured to meet them by means of the Amendments which stand on the Paper in my name. The first Amendment in Clause 1 is merely to strike out the word "by-law" and to insert the words "order to be approved by the Local Government Board." The expression "by-law" was thought not to be quite the accurate way of describing the necessary order which has to be made.

Amendment moved— Clause 1, page 1, line 8, leave out ("by-law") and insert ("order to be approved by the Local Government Board")—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

LORD ALLENDALE

My Lords, I may perhaps say, in agreeing to this Amendment, that the Departments concerned—the Local Government Board, the Home Office, and the Board of Agriculture—have gone very carefully into the merits of this Bill, and have suggested several alterations with the intention of making it a thoroughly workable measure. There does seem to be in this matter a real grievance in certain parts of the country, but it applies really to a rather limited area. The promoters of the Bill have been in consultation with the Government Departments concerned, and I believe they have very fairly agreed to and adopted the alterations that have been suggested. On behalf of the Government I have to say that we have no intention of offering any objection to the Amendments standing in the name of the noble Lord.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2:

Provision of camping grounds by county council.

2.—(1) A county council may, subject to the approval of the Local Government Board by agreement, purchase or take on lease land to be used for the purpose of camping grounds under such conditions as to area, situation, water supply, and otherwise as may be approved by the Local Government Board.

(2) Before signifying approval of the purchase or taking on lease by a county council of any land under this section, the Local Government Board shall, inter alia, take into consideration—

  1. (a) the general interests of the public and the neighbourhood in relation to the proposal;
  2. (b) the ability of the occupiers of movable dwellings to comply with the provisions of this section having regard in particular to the distance between and area of camping grounds in the county; and
  3. (c) the interests of travelling showmen or entertainers so as to secure that they shall not be hampered in the exercise of the legitimate business of their calling.

(3) Where a county council has, with the approval of the Local Government Board, provided sufficient land for camping grounds under this section—

  1. (a) the occupier of a movable dwelling may encamp upon any such ground upon payment of the authorised fee;
  2. (b) the occupier of a movable dwelling shall not encamp within the county—
    1. (i) upon any common or roadside waste without the permission in writing of the county council or their authorised officer, provided that such permission shall not affect the rights of any person interested in the land whose consent is requisite to render such user lawful; or
    2. (ii) upon any land in private occupation without the permission of the occupier of such land;
    and if any person acts in contravention hereof he shall be guilty of an offence under this Act, and it shall be the duty of the police to remove such offender;
  3. (c) where it appears to the county council that the presence of movable dwellings upon any specified place or places within the county would constitute an annoyance to the neighbourhood, the council may by by-law prohibit or limit the number of movable dwellings at any one time on such specified place or places; and it shall be the duty of the police to remove any person acting in contravention of this provision;
  4. (d) the county council may, subject to the approval of the Local Government Board, make regulations respecting the use of the camping grounds, and such regulations may inter alia prescribe fees to be taken from the occupier of any movable dwelling for such use.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

The next Amendment is in its present stage only a verbal one. It is to strike out paragraph (c) of subsection (2), which I propose to insert in another form later on.

Amendment moved— Clause 2, page 2, lines 1 to 3, leave out paragraph (c).—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

The words which I now move to insert are put in to meet the views of the Board of Agriculture. They conceived that it was possible that permission might be given by a county council to encamp upon a common which was already regulated by or under an Act of Parliament. It certainly was not intended in the least that this should be so. The permission was provided for in order to prevent people from camping on unauthorised ground without such consent, and certainly where commons are regulated under or by virtue of an Act of Parliament it is unlikely that any abuse of movable dwellings would be permitted under the rules.

Amendment moved— Clause 2, page 2, line 15, after ("not") insert ("be given in respect of any common which is regulated by or subject to any order, scheme, or by-law confirmed, or having effect by or in pursuance of any Act of Parliament, or is the subject of any Act of Parliament having for its object the preservation of the common as an open space, nor").—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My next Amendment is to leave out the words "and it shall be the duty of the police to remove such offender." It was pointed out to me that the inclusion of these words gave to the police a power of summarily removing people in consequence of what is, after all, only trespass, and that in the Bill itself there was a great additional power given for dealing with these cases. In the past almost the only way in which a trespasser who was doing not very great damage to the soil could be removed was by getting an injunction in the High Court or in the County Court, and this only applied to the individual van dweller, and was a very expensive, slow, and almost useless power. But under the Bill the person who breaks the by-law will be liable to prosecution before a Court of summary jurisdiction and to a fine, and it was con- sidered that until one had very strong evidence to the contrary one was not justified in supposing, when a constable told the van dweller that he must remove from the spot and that if he did not he would be prosecuted before a magistrate and fined, that that would not be sufficient to insure his removal with sufficient promptitude. Until that has been found inadequate it is considered inadvisable to extend the power so as to allow a constable to remove the offender at once upon his refusal to quit.

Amendment moved— Clause 2, page 2, line 21, leave out ("and it shall be the duty of the police to remove such offender.").—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

LORD HYLTON

My Lords, I am afraid that if these words are omitted a very useful portion of the Bill will go. On all the commons in Surrey and Kent and within fifty miles of London, where great nuisance has been found to arise from these gipsies camping there and cutting trees and committing all sorts of havoc, the difficulty up to now has been that although it has been possible to take out summonses against them, they were fifty, sixty, or seventy miles off before the summonses could be returned in any Court of summary jurisdiction. What the people in these counties have been very anxious for a long time to obtain is some provision such as Lord Clifford now proposes to omit. If these words are omitted I am afraid that exactly the same difficulty will arise in the future as in the past, and that it will be impossible very often to obtain a conviction against these people, who are here to-day and gone to-morrow.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My Lords, I quite see the force of the objections to my Amendment, but still I am in hopes that, with the granting of enlarged powers to bodies with a much more extensive jurisdiction than previously, there will be much greater facilities for following the wandering delinquent who has broken the by-laws than there have been in the past, and that it may be possible to enforce the orders of the Court in a way which was not possible before. It would, of course, be an additional strength if the words remained in, but I feel, in view of the objections raised against them, that it would be better for the future working of the Bill that the words in question should be deleted.

THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND

My Lords, I should like to say a word on this point as I was a member of the Committee to which this Bill was referred, and I must confess that I rather agree with my noble friend Lord Hylton that the leaving out of this provision makes a very serious difference. The original Bill as sent to us was designed for the registration of this wandering population, and the majority of the Committee thought—and I agreed with them—that it was impossible practically to register this kind of population, and therefore we introduced other provisions to make up for the want of registration. If you had registration I could understand the argument which has fallen from my noble friend Lord Clifford, that the enlarged powers of the county council would enable them to follow people up; but if you have no registration—and we have dropped registration—then you must have some summary power of getting at these people. Either you should have registration and the ordinary powers of the law, or no registration and summary powers. But if you are going to drop

Resolved in the negative.

registration on the one hand and not give summary powers on the other, it appears to me that the Bill will be useless.

LORD ALLENDALE

My Lords, I hope your Lordships will agree to this Amendment. I quite appreciate the objections that have been raised against the deletion of these words, but the Home Office—and this is more a Home Office question than a Local Government Board question—are very strongly in favour of the Amendment. They consider that the Bill goes a long way already in making mere trespass a criminal offence, and that it would be unreasonable to go still further and compel the removal of the offenders by the police. I hope your Lordships will agree to the Amendment.

On Question, whether the words proposed to be left out shall stand part of the clause?

Their Lordships divided:—Contents, 33; Not Contents, 48.

CONTENTS.
Argyll, D. Gough, V. Hatherton, L.
Northumberland, D. [Teller.] Hood, V. Hay, L. (E. Kinnoul.)
Ridley, V. Hindlip, L.
Hylton, L. [Teller.]
Bathurst, E. Lawrence, L.
Cathcart, E. Exeter, L. Bp. Muskerry, L.
Harrowby, E. Newton, L.
Lovelace, E. Barnard, L. Ravensworth, L.
Malmesbury, E. Biddulph, L. Sackville, L.
Russell, E. Farrer, L. St. Levan, L.
Fermanagh, L. (E. Erne.) Seaton, L.
Churchill, V. Greville, L. Sinclair, L.
Falkland, V. Hastings, L. Zouche of Haryngworth, L.
NOT CONTENTS.
Loreburn, L. (L. Chancellor.) Cross, V. Dunmore, L. (E. Dunmore.)
Morley of Blackburn, V. (L. President.) Haldane, V. Faber, L.
Hampden, V. Haversham, L.
Hemphill, L.
Bangor, L. Bp. Herschell, L.
Devonshire, D. Hothfield, L.
Marlborough, D. Allendale, L. Ilkeston, L.
Ashbourne, L. Kenmare, L. (E. Kenmare.)
Ashby St. Ledgers, L. Kenry, L. (E. Dunraven and Mount-Earl.)
Beauchamp, E. Belper, L. [Teller]
Carrington, E. Blyth, L. Kinnaird, L.
Cromer, E. Clifford of Chudleigh, L. [Teller.] Lochee, L.
Halsbury, E. MacDonnell, L.
Liverpool, E. Clinton, L. Manners, L.
Morley, E. Colebrooke, L. Monk Bretton, L.
Plymouth, E. Courtney of Penwith, L. Oranmore and Browne, L.
Selborne, E. Curzon of Kedleston, L. Sanderson, L.
Shaftesbury, E. Desborough, L. Saye and Sele, L.
Verulam, E. Devonport, L. Wandsworth, L.
LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

The next Amendment is consequential and verbal.

Amendment moved— Clause 2, page 2, line 27, leave out ("by-law") and insert ("order to be approved by the Local Government Board"), and after ("prohibit") insert ("the bringing of movable dwellings on to"), and leave out ("movable") and insert ("such").—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

This Amendment is also consequential.

Amendment moved— Clause 2, page 2, line 28, after ("dwellings") insert ("to be brought").—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

I now come to the Amendment which I alluded to in moving the omission of paragraph (c) of subsection (2), which was inserted for the protection of travelling showmen. Your Lordships may remember that in the Report of the Committee special stress was laid upon the fact that were it only for travelling showmen no legislation would be required, and it was thought that a protection of some kind embodying that expression of opinion on the part of the Committee should be inserted. It is now thought better that it should be inserted in this part of the Bill, and that both the Local Government Board in approving and the county council in making should endeavour to word the order so as to interfere as little as possible with the legitimate business of what is a considerably organised and well-conducted body of men.

Amendment moved— Clause 2, page 2, line 29, after ("places") insert ("in any such order the county council shall have due regard to the interests of travelling showmen so as to secure that they shall not be hampered in the exercise of the legitimate business of their calling"), and leave out from ("and") to ("provision") in line 31.—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My next Amendment is to insert a provision that where such regulations have been made, by-laws made under Section 9 of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1885, shall not apply to such camping grounds. It was felt that it was quite unnecessary to have two sets of regulations with regard to these camping grounds, and that it was better that the regulations referring to them should be embodied in the order which was specially made for them.

Amendment moved— Clause 2, page 2, line 36, after ("use") insert ("where such regulations have been made, by-laws made under Section 9 of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1885, shall not apply to such camping grounds").—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

I now move the insertion of a new clause after Clause 2. Clause 3, which I shall move in a moment to omit, appeared to take from the sanitary authority their power to carry out the by-laws which in some cases they had already made and hand it over to the county council. It was not the desire of the promoters of the Bill to in any way interfere with the exercise of the sanitary jurisdiction of the smaller sanitary authorities. But it was found that even where by-laws had been made by the sanitary authorities—and in the majority of cases they had not been made at all—they were in many cases inoperative on account of the wandering habits of the van-dweller and the comparatively limited area with which the authority dealt, and it was thought that it would be better, in order to make this desire on the part of the promoters more evident and pronounced, that the clause should be altered in this form. It practically amounts to this, that over the whole of their area the county council will have power to put in force the by-laws that exist. Where by-laws have already been approved, of course they will be found in existence; and where they have not been approved the county council will have power to step in and approach the Local Government Board direct in order to get by-laws put into existence over the remainder of the area of their jurisdiction. The difficulty which at first appeared to the promoters of the Bill with regard to the want of uniformity in respect of the various by-laws and the desire that the county council themselves should make and approve the by-laws will not, I think, cause very serious difference, because as all these orders and by-laws have to be approved by the Local Government Board we may safely trust that Department and the county councils to take such steps as may be necessary in getting the by-laws of all the sanitary authorities in these areas to practically agree. We hope, of course, that in most of the cases the power of the Local Government Board will be sufficient to induce, if not immediately, at least in course of time, uniformity in all the existing by-laws.

Amendment moved—

After Clause 2, insert the following new clause— .By-laws made by a sanitary authority under section nine of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1885, may, so far as they relate to movable dwellings, be enforced by the county council; and where in any sanitary district the sanitary authority have not made such by-laws, that section shall apply so as to enable a county council to make bylaws with respect to movable dwellings within such district, and on the coming into force of by-laws made by the county council under that section the power of the sanitary authority to make by-laws in respect of such dwellings shall cease.—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 3:

Amendment of Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1885, 48 & 49 Viet. c. 72.

3. The powers and duties of sanitary authorities under section nine of the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1885 (which relates to tents, vans, sheds, and other structures used for human habitation) shall, so far as they relate to movable dwellings, be transferred to county councils, and that section shall have effect as if references therein to the sanitary authority included references to the county council.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

I move that Clause 3 be struck out.

Amendment moved— Leave out Clause 3.—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to.

Clause 6:

Penalties.

6. —(1) A person guilty of a breach of any bylaw or regulation made under this Act, or of any other offence under this Act, shall on summary conviction be liable to a fine not exceeding forty shillings, and, in the case of a continuing offence under sections one or two of this Act, shall further be liable to a fine not exceeding twenty shillings for every day during which the said offence continues.

(2) Offences under this Act may be prosecuted by the council of the county within which the offence was committed.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My Amendment to this clause is consequential.

Amendment moved— Clause 6, page 3, line 17, leave out ("by-law") and insert ("order").—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

The new clause which I move to insert after Clause 6 is proposed chiefly to meet an objection raised by the Showmen's Association, who complained that when under the Bill camps were instituted their existence might very well not be known to them or to others interested. This new clause is to provide for due notice being given. Objection has been raised by showmen to the clause as it stands, on the ground that many showmen living a long way off would have no cognisance of local newspapers and local notices, and they seem to think that if the notices were inserted in the London Gazette it would be more useful to them. I am afraid that many of your Lordships will have no great opinion of an advertisement in the London Gazette as a means of publicity, and I think their objection would be much better met by laying the duty on the county council to give the information if desired by any association of the nature of the Showmen's Guild. I will consult with them again, and if there is any practical suggestion which can be made I can bring it up at the next stage of the Bill.

Amendment moved—

After Clause 6, insert the following new clause— .The county council shall give public notice of their intention to establish and of the establishment of any camping grounds, and of any order made by them and approved by the Local Government Board in pursuance of this Act by advertisement in one or more newspapers circulating in the locality, and by placing conspicuous notices or or near every camping ground and any specified place or places to which the order relates.—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.

Clause 9:

Definitions.

9. In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires,— The expression "movable dwelling" includes tents and other structures capable of being moved from place to place, and also vans, carts, carriages, wagons, and other vehicles which shall be used for purposes of abode or residence, excepting vehicles temporarily used by shepherds, labourers, or other persons for farming, agricultural, or other like purposes, or for the service of local authorities: The expression "occupier" in relation to a movable dwelling means the person occupying or having for the time being control or charge of a movable dwelling: The expression "county council" shall include the council of a county borough, and, in its application to a county borough, the expression "county fund" shall mean the borough fund or borough rate. Nothing in this Act shall be taken to apply to canal boats or other boats.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

I propose, after the words "The expression 'movable dwelling' includes tents and other structures capable of being moved from place to place, and also vans, carts, carriages, wagons, and other vehicles which shall be used for purposes of abode or residence, excepting vehicles," to insert the words "tents or other structures," because the exception with regard to agricultural vehicles did not include tents and other structures. It is thought that many of the movable tents and structures that might be put up for various agricultural purposes, at which the exception is aimed, would not be met as the definition clause now stands.

Amendment moved— Clause 9, page 3, line 37, after ("vehicles") insert ("tents or other structures.").—(Lord Clifford of Chudleigh.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Report of Amendments to be received on Thursday the 11th instant, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 69.)