Lords Sitting of 1 May 1911

Preamble
Several Lords—Took the Oath.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:

London United Tramways.

Northampton Corporation.

Seaforth and Sefton Junction Railway.

Chesterfield Gas and Water Board.

Paignton Urban District Council.

Liverpool Overhead Railway.

Gas Light and Coke Company.

Ipswich Corporation.

Metropolitan Electric Supply Company (Acton District).

Upper Medway Conservancy.

Western Valleys (Monmouthshire) Sewerage Board.

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways.

The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

RHYMNEY VALLEY WATER BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
A witness ordered to attend the Select Committee.
CHAPEL-EN-LE-FRITH, CHINLEY AND DISTRICT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Petition for additional Provision of the Chapel-en-le-Frith, Chinley and District Gas Company, Limited, under their Common Seal, together with the proposed Amendments annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.
MACCLESFIELD AND DISTRICT RAILLESS TRACTION AND ELECTRICITY SUPPLY BILL. [H.L.]
Petition for additional Provision of the Promoters of said Bill, together with the proposed Clause and Amendment annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.
PENLLWYN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Petition for additional Provision of the Penllwyn Railway Company under their Common Seal, together with the proposed Amendments annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.
LONDON, BRIGHTON AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a: An Amendment made: Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
CHESTER WATER BILL. [H.L.]
  MIDLAND RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
  Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL. [H.L.]
The King's consent signified: Bill read 3a, and, passed, and sent to the Commons.
ST. ANDREWS AMBULANCE ASSOCIATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons: read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a; (The Lord Pentland), and reported from the Committee. (No. 56.)
DUNFERMLINE BURGH EXTENSION AND DRAINAGE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
FEE FUND OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid on the Table the Annual Account of the Fee Fund of the House of Lords: The same was ordered to lie on the Table, and to be referred to the Select Committee on the House of Lords Offices.
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Alfreton Gas, Barnstaple Gas, Burnham Gas, and Launceston Gas (No. 57):
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Cannock Gas, Clay Cross Gas, Hythe and Sandgate Gas, Lichfield Gas, and Whitney and District Gas (No. 58):
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 3) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Holyhead Gas, Llangefni Gas, Llanrwst Gas, and Pwllheli Gas (No. 59):
GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 4) BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Busby and District Gas, Longford Gas, Preston Gas, and Uxbridge Gas (No. 60):
GAS AND WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Gas and Water Works Facilities Act, 1870, relating to Blandford Water, Gisborough Water, North Pembrokeshire Water and Gas, Sheringham Gas and Water, and West Gloucestershire Water (No. 61): And

TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Tramways Act, 1870, relating to Dartford and District Tramways and Dewsbury Corporation Tramways (No. 62):
Were presented by the Lord Herschell (for the Lord Hamilton of Dalzell); read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners.

CHRIST CHURCH (GLASGOW) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order relating to Christ Church, Glasgow—Was presented by the Lord Pentland; read 1a; to be printed; and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, section 7) deemed to have been read 2a, and reported from the Committee. (No. 63.)
LUNACY BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to amalgamate the Lunacy Departments and to transfer the power of making Vesting Orders from the Judge in Lunacy to the High Court—Was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a to be printed; and to be read 2a on Thursday next. (No. 64.)
HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
First Report from the Select Committee made, to be printed; and to be considered on Thursday next. (No. 65.)

DECEASED SEAMEN'S UNCLAIMED BALANCES.
LORD MUSKERRY LORD MUSKERRY rose to refer to the account (presented by His Majesty's command) of the sums received and paid in respect of wages and effects of deceased seamen in the year ended 31st March, 1910, and to the unclaimed balance of £15,775 10 s. 9d. which has accumulated since the year 1904; to ask whether unclaimed balances of this kind are devoted to purposes of material advantage to seamen, and if not, whether the President of the Board of Trade will consider the desirability of so doing.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, as you will see from the Question that stands in my name on the Paper, there was on March 31, 1910, an unclaimed balance of deceased seamen's wages amounting to £15,775 10 s. 9d., which had accumulated since the year 1904. The White Paper which gives these figures does not say how long this accumulation is to run on, nor does it give any information as to the purpose, if any, to which these unclaimed balances are put, and I am asking for information on this matter. It seems to me a reasonable proposition that moneys of the kind which have been earned by seafarers and have fallen into the hands of the Government should be devoted in some practical way to the interests of seafarers. If they are not made use of, or if they are automatically swallowed up in meeting State expenses, then I submit to your Lordships that it is time there should be a change, and that accumulations such as I have referred to should be put to some purpose whereby they form the nucleus of a general fund for the use of British subjects serving in our mercantile ships. I beg to put the Question standing in my name.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, I regret that the noble Lord who represents the Board of Trade is unable to be in his place to-day, and with your Lordships' permission I will reply to the noble Lord opposite. The earliest enactment of which we have a note, dealing with the unclaimed wages and effects of deceased seamen, is Cap. 73, 37 Geo. III. Section 8 of this Act provided that all wages not claimed within three years should be paid to the use of the Seamen's Hospital of the port to which the ship belonged on winch the deceased seaman served. If there was no Seamen's Hospital at the particular port, then the amount was to be applied to the use and benefit of the old and disabled seamen of the port. By Cap. 52 of 4 and 5 Win. IV, Sections 30 and 31, the procedure was varied, but the application of the unclaimed balances practically remained as before. As a matter of practice these sums were paid over to the trustees of the Merchant Seamen's Pension Fund at the different ports, and formed part of the income out of which pensions were paid to seamen and their widows and children. The Merchant Seamen's Pension Fund having become insolvent it was wound up under Cap. 102, 14 and 15 Victoria (Merchant Seamen's Fund Winding-up Act), and all its liabilities were taken over by the Government; and by the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854 (Cap. 104, 17 and 18 Viet.) Section 202, the unclaimed wages and effects of deceased seamen became payable to the Exchequer as a set off against the liabilities above referred to. The financial result of the Merchant Seamen's Fund Winding-up Act is as follows:—

Pensions and commutations paid from Votes of Parliament from 1852 to 1909,

£1,750,817

Deduct receipts:

Amount paid over by trustees,

£197,151

Contributions by seamen,

64,672

Unclaimed wages and effects of deceased seamen, 1852 to 1909–10,

340,978

602,801

Net cost to the State

£1,148,016

It will thus be seen that the unclaimed balances of the wages of deceased seamen
24
have been applied towards the pensions which were awarded out of the Merchant Seamen's Pension Fund, and also that the net cost of these pensions to the State to December 31, 1909, the latest complete year, has exceeded £1,000,000.

EMIGRATION.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH*THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH rose to call attention to the unanimous resolution of the last Imperial Conference, that "it is desirable to encourage British emigrants to proceed to British Colonies rather than to foreign countries"; and to inquire whether His Majesty's Government are still of this opinion; and, if so, whether they have taken or intend to take any steps to give effect to it.
The noble Duke said: My Lords, in the course of the next three weeks, as your Lordships are aware, His Majesty's Government are going to meet the Colonial Ministers at the Imperial Conference, and that being the case I am anxious to remind your Lordships that among the various Imperial questions which His Majesty's Government will discuss with the Dominion Ministers the question of emigration will arise. At the last Conference, in the year 1907, His Majesty's Ministers together with the representatives of the Overseas Dominions passed a very strong and remarkable Resolution dealing with the subject of emigration. That Resolution runs as follows—
"That it is desirable to encourage British emigrants to proceed to British Colonies rather than to foreign countries; that the Imperial Government he requested to co-operate with any Colonies desiring emigrants in assisting suitable persons to emigrate."
Since that Resolution was adoptedߞand I may observe, in passing, that the Resolution was carried unanimously—so far as I am aware His Majesty's Government have done nothing whatsoever in this matter of emigration. I have searched in vain the various official publications which have been made from time to time by the Colonial Office and other Departments. The most I have succeeded in discovering is a short paragraph stating the views of His Majesty's Government, and perhaps your Lordships will permit me to read to you the full extent, so far as I am aware, of what His Majesty's Government have done

25
with regard to emigration since the year 1907. I can assure you it will not occupy very much of your Lordships' time. This is the note in one of the Blue-books published by the Colonial Office—
"The view taken respecting the subject-matter of this Resolution was that, in the absence of any request from one or other of the Dominions for co-operation in a particular matter, the needs of the situation were, as stated by Colonel Seely in the House of Commons on June 22, sufficiently met by the offices of the self-governing Dominions in the United Kingdom, and by the Emigrants Information Office, which afford fell and trust worthy information to intending emigrants to the British Dominions. The whole question is, however, again under consideration."
That was published in July, 1910. Well, since the whole matter was again under consideration, I was in hopes that when the Colonial Office published a Blue-book last month some further information as to the views of His Majesty's Government on emigration might be forthcoming. But I have searched those Papers very carefully, and I am unable to discover any trace whatever of the views of His Majesty's Government upon this very important subject. I venture to ask the representative of the Colonial Office this evening whether His Majesty's Government still adhere to the Resolution passed in 1907, and carried unanimously at a meeting of the Conference at which I might observe the present Home Secretary was present and endorsed the Resolution; whether they have decided to modify their views, or whether they have completely changed them.
Whatever the views of His Majesty's Government on the question of emigration may be—and I shall listen to them with the greatest interest—we cannot be blind to this fact, that public opinion on this matter has considerably matured since the year 1907. In the first place, there is home opinion. What is the view of people in this country? I do not deny for one moment that there are many individuals who think that the emigration of adult labour from this country may involve the departure of those who are considered the best blood. Furthermore, questions of the defence of Great Britain itself may suggest to some minds the importance and necessity of keeping here at home as many individuals as possible. But, admitting this much with regard to adult labour, I believe that there is a growing
26
body of opinion that a considerable amount might be done in the direction of child emigration. It is felt that children at fourteen years of age should still be supervised, and should not be entirely out of control of some authority. The Prime Minister himself has endorsed this view.
But when we turn to Colonial opinion what do we find? We find that the supply of adult labour from the North-West of Europe is to a certain extent slowing off, that the vast stream of emigrants from Northern Europe is not so apparent as it was in recent years. At the same time, Australia will shortly require a great amount of extra labour; in Canada we know that the demand for labour already exists. In fact the Dominion Governments themselves are prepared officially to entice labour to their shores. I do not think any one in this House will dispute these facts. We have all seen the advertisements that are published by Colonial Governments, and we are equally aware that there are a great number of Dominion officials throughout this country anxiously advertising the importance and the relative merits of their different Dominions.
There are three kinds of emigrants with whom we can deal. In the first place, there is the child emigrant; secondly, there is the woman emigrant; and, finally, the adult labour emigrant and his family. Let me deal first with adult labour, because it is, perhaps, the most controversial and the most complex of the three propositions. I do not deny, as I have said, that there is a reluctance in this country to part with adult labour. There is a feeling that we may be getting rid of our best blood. On the other hand, we know perfectly well that the Dominions are not anxious to have—indeed will not have—what we may call the failures here at home. So we start with that difficulty—the reluctance, on the one hand, of the people here at home to encourage the emigration of adult labour because of the fear that we may be getting rid of our best blood, and the fact, on the other hand, that the Dominions are not prepared to accept our worst.
And when we come to the particular kind of adult labour there is this further difficulty. The Dominions require, above all, the agricultural labourer. There is very little, if any, machinery in this country

27
for training an individual who wishes to become an agricultural labourer in the Dominions, and, moreover, there is a very right and proper desire to absorb all the agricultural labourers we can on our own soil at home. So I fancy I am right in saying that organised labour would be opposed to any scheme of emigration of adult labour, and that being the case I presume that His Majesty's Government, with decent reticence of language, will endorse the view of organised labour. Therefore I will not discuss the question of the emigration of adults further this evening. I will dismiss it with this one observation. If you are able in this country to absorb most of the adult labour, indeed, if you are able to absorb all of it, are you quite certain that you are justified in asking individuals to remain permanently in this country in the position of artisans and farm labourers when you know that there is a stream of emigration from the Northwest of Europe going to our Dominions beyond the seas, and that these individuals, after a very short period of time in the Dominions, are able to rise and merge in the middle classes?
Let me turn to the, I think, more important consideration—the question of child emigration. Children who are qualified to emigrate can be divided into three classes. There are those who are trained in private institutions like that of the Waifs and Strays and Dr. Barnardo's Homes; there are the Poor-law children emigrated by boards of guardians under the supervision of the Local Government Board; and there are the children who are trained in the industrial and reformatory schools, which are under the supervision of the Home Office. Every noble Lord in this House is aware of the fact that the Dominion Governments are very glad indeed to receive children who have been trained in private institutions. Dr. Barnardo's Homes have turned out something like 22,000 boys in the last twenty or thirty years, who have been emigrated to the Dominions; and all of them, with the exception of two per cent., have proved themselves useful and efficient citizens. No one will deny the good work which these voluntary institutions do in this country so far as these children are concerned. Both parties to the agreement are content—the Colonies on the one hand, and public opinion here at home on the other.
How does the case stand with regard to Poor-law children and children trained in industrial schools? In the year 1909, 500 children were emigrated under the management and jurisdiction of the Local Government Board, and 200 children were emigrated from industrial and reformatory schools. What do we know about the merits of these children after they have emigrated? Let me remind your Lordships of the view of the Dominion Governments with regard to the merits of the Poor-law children who have been emigrated. It is essential, I think, if we want to arrive at the truth, to know what the view of the Overseas Governments themselves is. I will read an extract from a report last year by the Canadian Government inspector. Dealing with these Poor-law children he says —
"I have no hesitation in saying, after many years of official experience, that there have been fewer complaints concerning the character and industry of this class of newcomer than of any other. The child emigrant comes to our shores at a plastic age. He has been subject to the careful oversight and strict but kind discipline which characterise the homes and schools of the Old Country. The Home Office and Poor-law schools in Great Britain are, with few exceptions, splendidly managed, and the training afforded the children is thorough and comprehensive; therefore, if the child has been enrolled at an early age, one has reason to expect a superior type of immigrant. The character of this pre-emigration training is taken as a guarantee of the fitness of the child for Canadian citizenship, seeing that he has undergone a careful supervision and education in a certified home or school."
That is the view of the Dominion Government inspector on the value and utility of children from Poor-law and industrial schools.
Now let us look at the reverse side of the picture. What is the view of the Local Government Board officials in this country? Last year a circular-letter was issued by the Local Government Board to boards of guardians throughout England, in which it is stated that—
"Careful inquiries conducted by competent investigators show that emigration affords one of the surest means of extricating children from pauperism and the influence of evil surroundings. At present only a comparatively small use is made of this method, but looking to the satisfactory results obtained the Board considers that guardians would do well in further exercising their powers of emigrating children."
When we have the testimony of the Overseas Dominions and of officials here at home as to the beneficial results accruing from

29
the emigration of Poor-law children, surely I am justified in urging upon His Majesty's Government that the time is ripe for a consideration of this subject, and that child emigration might be conducted on a larger and more comprehensive scale. Let us bear in mind the fact that at the present time there are 70,000 Poor-law children. Our obligation towards these children ceases at the age of fourteen. After that age we have no longer any jurisdiction over them. They are then turned out into the streets. Many of them, I fear, drift into what are known as "blind-alley" Occupations; they get employment as van boys, errand boys, and in occupations of that description; and at the age of sixteen they are asked to make way for other boys at fourteen. Can you be surprised that these children learn the very worst kind of street habits, and that many of them, who leave Poor-law schools at the age of fourteen admirably trained and efficient in character in every sense of the word, frequently, from the fact that there is no supervision over them whatever, commit some offence which brings them to the reformatory school; and then they may no longer be qualified as emigrants, because the Colonial Dominions are very reluctant to accept children from reformatory schools, though in some cases they do accept them from industrial schools. The question arises, What are you going to do with these children at the age of fourteen? How are you going to handle them? How are you going to supervise them? I really do think that the public demands that we should consider this subject and, do something for these children. Therefore I ask His Majesty's Government why we should not emigrate them.
Then the question arises, how many of these children is it right and desirable that we should emigrate? Fortunately, to-day the Labour Exchanges put us in a position to ascertain how many of these children can be employed in useful and proper situations. But even if you were able to absorb half or even two-thirds of these children in useful and suitable situations—and I do not think it will be possible to show that that is the case—you still have a residuum to deal with, and I claim that it is in connection with that residuum that some system of emigration should be forthcoming. We know that if we do emigrate them to our Dominions the Colonies are
30
very glad to receive them. I noticed a paragraph in The Times the other day dealing with what is known as the Dreadnought Farm—a farm started in Australia for the purpose of receiving children and training them and making them into efficient citizens. This is a phrase that caught my eye—
"The Dreadnought Farm boys are making an excellent impression. Pastoralists and farmers are urging the extension of the movement."
It may be asserted that for His Majesty's Government in any way to involve themselves directly in child emigration would impose an extra burden on the citizens of this country. I do not deny that contention. But, on the other hand, we have to bear these facts in mind. As I understand, His Majesty's Government in the course of a short time propose to develop still further our continuation schools. Even if you keep these children at home you will have to pay for their supervision and control in the continuation schools; and if they are not fortunate enough to get the training of a continuation school, I fear they may drift, as some of them do, into the criminal classes, and, thus become a burden to the taxpayer, or become improvident and useless citizens and consequently become a burden on the rates. Surely it is our desire, and it is, above all, the desire of these children themselves, that they should become an asset to the British Empire and be of some use to their fellow-countrymen. They do not want, through lack of opportunity of training in their early youth, to become a burden in their later lives to their fellow-citizens.
The conclusions I arrive at are these: that with regard to children directly under State control—that is, Poor-law children and children in the industrial schools—His Majesty's Government might with reason consider the possibility of emigrating them on a larger scale; and that with regard to these voluntary societies, of which I think there are something like 1,000 in this country, His Majesty's Government might consider them and their work with more sympathy and with a more favourable eye. I have recently had the honour of meeting many of the representatives of these voluntary societies. Their work is very remarkable indeed; I think we may say it is splendid. They do feel—and in saying this I do not think

31
I am giving expression to any confidence on their part which I ought to preserve—they do feel strongly that the Government might consider them with greater sympathy. They think, on the one hand, that financial assistance might be given to them for the passage of the children who are emigrated; also that a closer touch might be preserved between the Government and these societies; and that a closer supervision of the children might be exercised. Bear in mind that whereas the Dominions send over representatives to this country and supervise these children here before they are sent to the Colonies, these voluntary societies are obliged, having emigrated these children, them selves to pay for inspectors in the Dominions to see that the children are properly and intelligently employed. This becomes a great financial burden on these voluntary societies, and they could employ their money more profitably in training the children here in England. They feel that the time has now come when His Majesty's Government might come forward and themselves appoint inspectors in the Dominions to exercise control over these children and report direct to the Home Government as to their behaviour and their bringing up. I cannot help feeling that if His Majesty's Government could see their way to consider such a proposal it would strengthen their hands in any negotiations and deliberations which they may have with the representatives of the Dominions at the forthcoming Imperial Conference.
I now turn to the consideration of the question of the emigration of women. The case can be put quite briefly and concisely. As your Lordships are aware, there are a million more women in England than there are men, and there are a million more men in the Dominions than there are women. There is great competition at home among women for all kinds of work, and there is a great need for women in the Dominions. I do not suppose that any one would deny that the disparity in the distribution of the sexes is certainly, to say the least of it, unfortunate. Considerable efforts are being made to redress the balance. I dare say the noble Lord the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies will say that this adjustment, this redistribution of the female population of the Empire, can be allowed to work out automatically. I do not deny that. Possibly that is a right contention. All I claim is this—and I
32
urge it on behalf of those ladies who have taken an active interest in the welfare of their own sex who desire to emigrate from England—that it is only right that all emigration conducted on behalf of women leaving these shores should be done in as decent and proper a manner as possible.
Now what are the conditions that these ladies claim should be observed? They ask that there should be, in the first place, proper supervision over all female emigrants during the voyage; secondly, that there should be proper hostel accommodation in the Dominions on the arrival of these women; thirdly, that some society should exist, either voluntary or under the State, which should supervise and control these people when they arrive; and, furthermore, that it is essential to see that the women are placed in suitable and proper situations. Of course, these voluntary associations do all they can. They exercise what supervision lies in their power; but we are coming to a time when we are dealing with enormous numbers. It is a question of a million women, and it is impossible to suppose that these voluntary associations can deal with such large numbers and exercise that complete control which those who are responsible for the women emigration movement are anxious to see effected. They would like the Dominion Governments to make themselves responsible for seeing that these women get into suitable and proper situations, or the Home Government themselves to undertake that obligation, or, perhaps better still, that both the Home and the Dominion Governments should combine together and work in co-operation in this matter.
I trust that it will not be urged by the representative of His Majesty's Government that any emigration policy to the Dominions involves necessarily the draining of our best blood. I do not think that that is an argument which will really bear close and careful analysis. After all, these Poor-law children are not our best citizens and they are not our worst citizens. They are average, sensible, good English boys. We know the Dominions are glad to have them, and I think we should do all in our power to see that they are not unnecessarily forced to remain here at home. So far as the women are concerned, I do not suppose it will be urged that we are necessarily

33
sending out our best from this country, because that rather involves an impolite reflection on those who do not undertake women I do think that the time has emigration. But with regard to the come, considering that they wish to emigrate in such large numbers, when His Majesty's Government might usefully and properly see that better control and supervision are associated with them in their journey to the Dominions and also when they arrive there.
I trust also that it will not be claimed that any attempt to develop this emigration policy is merely a desire on the part of some individuals in this country to get rid of our surplus population and consequently avoid any agrarian legislation. I only mention this fact because I noticed the other day, in a newspaper which is a strong supporter of the policy of noble Lords opposite, an article dealing with the question of Scottish emigration. This paper suggested, in a leading article, that the reason why so many Scottish farmers were forced to emigrate was largely, if not mainly, due to the action of some Scottish Peers in this House who two years ago did not see fit to pass the Scottish Land Bill. I sincerely trust that there will be no suggestion made—I feel sure His Majesty's Ministers will not make it—that because a scheme is put forward for the emigration either of children or adults from these shores to the Dominions, it is necessarily done with a desire to get rid of our surplus population and to avoid agrarian legislation. Nothing could be more untrue, unfair and unjust. Only this week we have two Bills before your Lordships' House, introduced by noble Lords who sit on this side, dealing with the land problem. All of us in this House, irrespective of Party, would like to see many of the questions associated with the soil solved. But of this I am convinced, that whatever our agrarian policy may be, whether it comes from this side or from noble Lords opposite, or, better still, whether it is the result of joint action on the part of both Parties in the State, it will still be essential to have some kind of emigration policy, not to supplant, but to supplement, any agrarian solution at which you might arrive; for even if you solve to-day the agrarian problem, in sixteen or twenty years you will again be faced with a similar problem to deal with the surplus population.
34
Therefore in order to make an agrarian policy successful it is, in my humble opinion, essential to supplement it with an equally comprehensive scheme of State emigration.
Finally I venture to urge this consideration on His Majesty's Ministers. They are going shortly to meet the Dominion Ministers. At the Imperial Conference they will discuss many problems connected with subjects of Imperial importance. Among those problems for consideration I submit that they cannot regard with indifference this question of the inequality of the distribution of the population throughout the Empire, and the means adopted by voluntary effort and voluntary societies in this country and also by the Dominion Governments themselves to redress that balance. I beg to ask the Question that stands in my name.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD LUCAS): My Lords, the noble Duke has devoted the greater part of his speech to two aspects of this question on which I think a particularly strong case can be made out in favour of emigration from this country to the Colonies. I refer to the emigration of children, which, as he rightly says, has met with great success where it has been carried out, and it has already been carried out largely; and to the emigration of the surplus population of women from this country to those Colonies where there is a great preponderance of men, which, of course, must recommend itself to everybody if only on the purely logical ground. But, after all, at the back of these two questions you have the question of principle, as to what line the State is going to adopt towards the whole question of emigration, and there you have two alternatives. You have to consider whether you are going to start a system of emigration organised and subsidised by the State, or whether you are going to have, what we have at the present moment, a general policy of encouraging British emigrants to go to British colonies rather than to foreign countries.
With regard to the first of those two alternatives, which I think was the principle recommended to us by the noble Duke to be applied to women and children, I have only to say this, that that system was not the policy of the Government of which the noble Duke was a member;

35
that it is not the policy of the present Government; and that I think one may fairly say it is not the policy of the Dominions themselves. Nobody can read the account that was published in the Bluebook of the discussion at the last Imperial Conference on the question of emigration without coming to that conclusion. In the first place, there was not one Dominion representative who asked for it, and in so far as it was mentioned at all it was rather opposed by them, and on one simple ground. As was said more than once in the course of that discussion, one of the most vital questions to the Dominions is the class of emigrant sent out. The more of the suitable class of men they can get the better they are pleased; but there are classes of people in this country whom they would rather not receive as immigrants. But if you have a system which is controlled, organised, and paid for by this country, it would deprive the Colonies to a very great extent of any control over the class of men we might choose to emigrate from this country under that system. Moreover, a general system of State subsidised emigration from this country is one which has not been asked for by the Dominions.
I pass to the other alternative—the policy of encouraging British emigrants to go to British Colonies rather than to foreign countries. As to the extreme desirability of that I think everybody is in agreement. The only question with regard to it is as to the actual means which are adopted to carry out that policy. I will state to your Lordships what are the forces at work upon that at the present time. First of all, you have the extremely efficient and effective agencies largely maintained by the self-governing Dominions for placing before intending emigrants the advantages of the Colonies which they represent. Then you have another extremely efficient organisation in the Emigrants Information Office. That is entirely an advisory body. It has no executive functions, and it devotes itself entirely to advising intending emigrants who go to it for advice in the best interests of themselves. It does not pretend to be an office for the purpose of advising intending emigrants to go especially to the Colonies, but, as a matter of fact, in at least nine cases out of ten its advice to intending emigrants is to go to the Colonies because the openings for these men are so much better there than
36
in foreign countries. They are doing extremely useful work with their publications and general advice, and there is no doubt at all that the excellent work which they are accomplishing is largely contributing to the stream of emigration which is flowing towards our Colonies.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: As the noble Lord is dealing with the Emigration Bureau, perhaps he will bear in mind when he says that it is an excellent institution, which I would not deny, that at the last Imperial Conference Mr. Deakin spent a good time in criticising the work of the Bureau, and brought it prominently to the notice of the President of the Local Government Board and the Colonial Secretary.
LORD LUCAS: I would ask the noble Duke to refresh his memory by looking at the reply which was made to Mr. Deakin's remarks by Mr. John Burns. From the standpoint upon which I have explained that the Emigration Information Office always acts—namely, to advise simply and solely in the best interests of the intending emigrant—I think Mr. Burns completely vindicated the office from the charges made against it by Mr. Deakin. Another important agent in this matter is the Labour Exchange. When vacancies are announced in the self-governing Dominions they are advertised in the Labour Exchanges here, and men are emigrated to fill them. Then my noble friend Lord Ashby St. Ledgers reminds me that the Chelsea Hospital Commissioners now enable pensioners to commute their pensions in order to go abroad and settle, and I understand from my noble friend that in almost every case, if not in every single case, those men who take advantage of this go to the Colonies and not to foreign countries.
Then there is that large number of private bodies to whom the noble Duke referred, who are doing extremely useful work in emigrating people to the Colonies. The results of that work are extremely striking, and, if I may, I will state those results. In the year 1910 over two-thirds of the total number of emigrants from these shores went to British Colonies. That is a very great change from the condition of things that existed a comparatively short time ago. As your Lordships are aware, practically the only foreign competitor for British emigrants at the present time is

37
the United States of America. In 1888 they absorbed 72 per cent. of the total number of British emigrants; in 1906 the figure fell to 47 per cent.; in 1909 to 40 per cent.; and last year to 31 per cent. So that every year we see that an increasingly larger proportion of the emigrants who leave these shores go to British Colonies. To show how rapidly this change is taking place I may mention that in 1910 94,000 more emigrants left these shores than in the previous year, and out of that number no fewer than 77,000 are accounted for by the increased emigration to the Dominions. Your Lordships will see from that that the current is setting very strongly in the direction of the Dominions.
I now come to another form of emigration. I refer to people who are assisted in various ways to go out. I leave out of account the assistance given by purely private bodies, for we have no information upon that, and I leave out of account also the assisted passages given by certain of the self-governing Colonies. There are two principal sources of public money by which people are assisted to emigrate from this country. Men and their families are emigrated through the funds obtained under the Unemployed Workmen's Act, and there is also the source to which the noble Duke referred—the funds of boards of guardians. Since the Unemployed Workmen's Act came into force 5,458 emigrants, with 10,460 dependants, have been emigrated, and only 27 out of those 5,458 with their dependants went to foreign countries, the whole of the rest remaining within the Empire. The figures as regards boards of guardians are equally remarkable. In the twenty-one years during which they have carried out this work—namely, from 1890 to 1910, in-clusive—
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: You are referring to Poor-law children now.
LORD LUCAS: Yes, they are mostly Poor-law children. During that period the boards of guardians assisted 9,300, of whom only forty-seven went to foreign countries. Every day the tide of emigration turns more strongly towards the Colonies, and these people go to the Colonies for the simple reason that the openings are better there and there are greater advantages in other ways. They go to a land where the same speech obtains, where to a great extent the same laws obtain, and where they find themselves
38
in conditions much more like those, to which they are accustomed than would be the case in any other country. That, and the fact that the openings are, as I have said, actually better, explains why these people are drawn to our own Dominions. The various agencies are doing their work excellently, and it would be difficult to devise means which would really largely increase or improve the perfectly natural flow which is taking place at the present moment. As the noble Duke said, this question is one of those which will come up at the Imperial Conference shortly to be held, and if proposals for closer co-operation between ourselves and the Dominions on the lines that I have indicated with regard to these matters are put forward, all I can say is that we shall do everything we can to meet the wishes of the representatives of the Dominions.
THE EARL OF MEATH: My Lords, I was very pleased to hear the noble Duke bring forward this question. It is one in which I have taken a deep interest for many years. At one time the Government did attempt to assist emigration. It will be in your Lordships' recollection that for two years State-aided colonisation was supported by the House of Commons, and £10,000 was voted for two years for the purpose of emigration. The emigrants were principally chosen from Scotland. It was in consequence of an agitation, in which I took part, carried on for some years to try and induce the Government to favour State-directed and State-aided colonisation. Unfortunately the Government of the day did not adopt the scheme in the way which those who originally brought it forward thought was the only practical way. We foreshadowed that it would be a failure, and it proved a failure after two years. It was not, however, a complete failure. There are still a good number of those Colonists on the land in Canada, for it was in Canada that the farms were situated to which the people from Scotland were sent out. But a certain number went away from their farms and into the towns, and that was due to the fact that the people had not been chosen with sufficient care. Some of them were very successful, but there were others who had not got the necessary grit in them or the knowledge to enable them to work their farms properly.
Since those days we have learnt something, and I think all who know anything about the subject will agree with me that

39
the consensus of opinion at this moment is that if anything of the sort is to be done on a large scale it must be done through the children. The children must be trained for Colonial life either at home or in the Colony. The best way, I think, is in the Colony. But it is within your Lordships' knowledge that large numbers are trained at home and sent out by such institutions as Barnardo's, and with very good results. I have just returned from South Africa, and I know that there the immigration of well-trained children would be attended with great success. The difficulty of emigrating people from this country is that many of them, especially those from the towns, have no idea how to work on the land. Many of them have not the stamina, and some of them have not the desire. On the other hand, if boys are sent out in early youth who are well trained and then put on the farms they are taught how to work under the conditions of the Colony, and they become most useful citizens. His Majesty's Government have not shown, through the speech of the noble Lord the Under-Secretary, any very great desire to give assistance towards emigration. The noble Lord could only point to 5,458 emigrants that had been sent out in one year under the Unemployed Workmen's Act. That is not a very large number. The other figure given, the 9,000 odd sent out by boards of guardians, I understand covered a great many years.
LORD LUCAS: Twenty-one years.
THE EARL OF MEATH: That is a very small number spread over such a long period. I can hardly call assistance from boards of guardians public assistance; it is certainly assistance from the rates, but not from Imperial funds. If I might be allowed to make a suggestion I would express the hope that more assistance will in the future be given to the societies engaged in this work, and of which the noble Lord spoke in very flattering terms. He said they were doing excellent work. They are. But they lack funds. It appears to me that public money could be very well spent if it was given under certain conditions to these associations, the stipulation being laid down that before the children went out they must be examined by some Government official to see that they had been properly trained. And in order not to stop voluntary contributions it could be laid down that the giving of the public money should be dependent on a
40
certain proportion of voluntary contributions being received. In that way the public purse would be protected and great good would be done. There is no doubt that in this country we do want to train for our Colonies a large number of children who would not in ordinary circumstances be likely to find employment at home. On the other hand, we know that our Colonies are crying out for proper immigrants. They do not want the unemployed man, or the so-called unemployed man. They want the man who is trained to use his hands and has grit in him. I trust that this debate will do some service by causing His Majesty's Government to think about this question; and now that we have so many of the leading men from our Colonies in our midst I hope the Government will consult them as to the best means of assisting emigration through the State.
LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH: My Lords, I should like to appeal for a few minutes on behalf of the children from industrial schools. Those in reformatory schools are, I am afraid, too much under suspicion to be readily acceptable in the Colonies. But the class of children who are sent to our industrial schools and receive a very careful training there are entitled to a much superior consideration on the part of the Colonies than they now receive. They have a very large claim upon the Government, who have practically taken their future into their own hands and purposely removed them from the care of their parents and from the surroundings in which they were being brought up. I think this action on the part of the Government entitles these children to the particular care of the Home Office, and I trust that when this question is being discussed the Home Office will see what can be done to assist the emigration of these children so that they may not return to their old surroundings. I am quite aware that there are difficulties in the way, and that it may be necessary to make some stringent regulations to ensure that only proper and selected children out of such institutions should be sent. The question is worthy of the attention of the Home Office, and I hope that in the forthcoming deliberations of the Imperial Conference it will have due importance given to its consideration.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: My Lords, I am glad that my noble friend behind me has brought forward this subject, and I

41
think I may congratulate him on the manner in which he did so. He showed a complete mastery of its various parts, and altogether he has contributed not a little to the consideration of this question by the public. The answer of the noble Lord who represents the Colonial Office was certainly sympathetic. So far, I would say, so good; but I do not think that His Majesty's Government have gone far enough in this matter. I do not think they have even really carried out the spirit of the Resolution passed at the Imperial Conference. It would surely be a great misfortune if His Majesty's Government were to get into the habit of treating Resolutions of an Imperial Conference rather as Resolutions of an Imperial debating society; and yet between Conferences the driving power for carrying out the intentions of the Resolutions must be supplied by His Majesty's Government. The scattered Ministries of the Dominions cannot contribute the machinery, or what I prefer to call the driving power, to carry through between Conferences the great ideas of policy that are agreed upon at these Imperial Conferences. The noble Lord said, quite truly, that the policy of a more complete and systematised scheme of emigration by the Government of the day, recommended by my noble friend, had not been the policy of oar Government. I quite admit the justice of that retort.
Since I had the honour of being a member of a Government here I have done a little turn of Colonial service, and I have come back greatly impressed with the lost opportunities by the Imperial Government, no matter which Party may be in power℄the lost opportunities of organising this question of emigration, or rather the misapprehension of how grievously this question requires organising. We have here an Emigration Bureau, a very good office I quite agree. Its only function is to give good information and advice to those who seek it. We have the offices of the Dominion Agents-General, or High Commissioners as they are now called. Those are recruiting agencies for certain specified purposes, at certain times in operation and at certain times not in operation; and altogether apart from them there is a large undirected and unadvised stream of emigration constantly going on. We have heard that in Canada particularly Englishmen who have gone out have been regarded as rather hard bargains, and I have heard of
42
advertisements in which occurred the words, "No Englishmen need apply." That is not flattering to our English sense of patriotism, but it is the natural result of the want of organisation of this matter by His Majesty's Government. What happens? Everybody who goes out does not go to the Emigration Bureau and ask for information. You get many square pegs everywhere trying to force themselves into round holes, but, more than that, you get applying for situations on the land and attempting to settle on the land whole series of emigrants quite unfitted, not by their character, not by their physique, but by their complete want of training, to take any part in the tilling of the soil or in the industry of agriculture. My experience in South Africa is that there is no use dumping men down on the land if they are townsmen who have had no experience of agriculture. You must provide them with training.
That is my first experience. My second is that there are a great number of men of all classes who have not been countrymen in England, nor willing under any circumstances to become countrymen in England, because the rewards of agriculture here are not sufficient, but who are tempted by the greater rewards of agriculture in the Dominions; these men become the very best settlers on the land but they require training, and for their training there can be no machinery on any adequate scale except that provided by the Government. I would draw your Lordships' attention to the Resolution of the Imperial Conference in 1907℄
"That it is desirable to encourage British emigrants to proceed to British Colonies rather than to foreign countries."
The noble Lord gave us figures to show that that part of the Resolution had received real attention, and that marked success had followed the efforts to so divert the stream of emigration. The second part of the Resolution was℄
"That the Imperial Government be requested to co-operate with any Colonies desiring emigrants℄
Co-operation is organisation℄organisation not apart from the agencies of the Dominions, but in co-operation with them℄
"in assisting suitable persons to emigrate."
You cannot assist without machinery and money, and if you add assistance to co-operation I do not want any better definition of a really well-organised system.
LORD LUCAS: The whole sense of the discussion at which that Resoluction was passed points very clearly to the fact that it was in nobody's mind at the time the Resolution was passed that a State-aided and subsidized system of emigration should be started in this country.
THE EARL OF SELBORNE: Then I submit that the Resolution did not carry out the intention of those who framed it. As it stands, certainly it means what I have suggested or bears that interpretation most naturally. The next point I make—and I wish to lay great stress upon it, not in any controversial spirit but as very deeply impressed with the importance of the matter—is with regard to the emigration of women. I can conceive absolutely no objection on any ground to the carefully organised emigration of women. It does require very careful organisation both at home and in the Dominion or Colony to which the women are to be sent. I have seen excellent results from the work of the Victoria League and other voluntary societies. I really cannot exaggerate the value that I attach to the work done by these societies in emigrating women to South Africa. The percentage of failures is infinitesimal, and so it will always be under a proper and adequately organised system. The proportion of success, of women who not only earn their livelihood but marry and settle down, is very large. And I do not think His Majesty's Government could spend money better than in relieving the congestion which we know exists at home and the competition between women who have to earn their livelihood under difficult conditions, and for whom a very fair future waits exactly where they are most wanted. A surplus of 1,000,000 women here, a deficit of 1,000,000 women in the Colonies; and it is only His Majesty's Government who can organise on a large scale the deflection of this stream from harassing competition at home to the fair and happy homes that await them in the Colonies. I have only one other word to say, and that is with respect to whether we should emigrate our best or our second best. The Dominions will not take anything but the best. They are quite right. We should be equally ill-advised if we sent out anything but our best. No farmer who knows his business sows anything but the best seed, and when your field is the Empire your Imperial seed should be only the best.

THE CONGO.
THE EARL OF MAYO THE EARL OF MAYO rose to ask His Majesty's Government why no Consular Reports from the Congo State have been published since the one furnished by Consul Thesiger in 1909; and to move for Papers.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, in putting this Question I should like to make a few remarks. It is well known to the the House that the treatment of the Congo under the system created by King Leopold of Belgium excited horror and disgust throughout the whole world, and the so-called Congo Free State became a by-word amongst the nations. Let me recall that the Congo was annexed by Belgium in 1908, and that the Belgian reform scheme was published in October, 1909. By the terms of the reform scheme half of the Congo was to be left, for varying periods, under the same Leopoldian règime of slavery and international illegality against which the British Government had been officially protesting since 1903. The reform scheme did not receive the Royal Assent in Belgium until March, 1910, and I ask, Why did not the Foreign Office use its influence during that interval, by publishing its Consular Reports and in other ways, to protest against the reform scheme which applied to only half of the Congo territory?
The last report we had from the Congo was the report of Consul Thesiger in January, 1909. That was a courageous and straightforward report. It narrated a tour in the Kasai district, begun in May, 1908, and lasting apparently until August, 1908. What did Consul Thesiger say in regard to that? His report disclosed a condition of things abominable in the extreme. These are his words—
"No method of reform or change of administration will be of any real benefit to the people of this district unless it includes the entire abolition of this company, which has so long been held up as a model of what a concessionnaire company should be."
What was the result of that report in Belgium? The Belgian Colonial Minister, who had had the contents of Consul Thesiger's report quoted to him through M. Emile Vandervelde, who had met Consul Thesiger on the Congo, declared in the Chamber on December 17 and in the Senate on December 23 that—
"The Kasai Company did not 'levy taxes or force the natives to work,' and those who contended the contrary were 'ignorant of the true state of affairs."'

45
The fact of Consul Thesiger's report compelled this Minister to speak on the subject, and he had to admit that forty-five of the company's agents were under arrest, eleven of the counts being for manslaughter, eleven for illegal imprisonment, and two for "blows leading to death." The Belgian Government holds fifty per cent. of the company's shares, estimated in the Treaty of Transfer at a value of £l,426,698. If the Consul's report did nothing else it led to a statement from the Belgian Minister which shows what sort of reform this is, and what it is worth. Is the reform scheme applied, to only half the territory an excuse for not publishing any further Consular Reports? But what about the reports from the un-reformed half? Surely there can be no excuse whatever why we should not have had Consular Reports from that territory.
Although no Consular Reports are available we have evidence from missionaries, and I will quote from a report by a missionary dated February 7, 1911, giving particulars of a journey in the Aruwimi district of the Upper Congo. He writes—
"We regret to say that rubber is still the tax paid to the State by hundreds of natives in the inland districts visited by us. Three months ago, in coming back to this station after furlough in England, one was still with sincere hopes that the reforms promised by the Belgian Government and accepted in good faith by many ardent reformers and statesmen would be put into execution immediately and thoroughly by those who have the responsibility of the administration of this country. And in justice it should be remarked that, owing chiefly to the substitution of money instead of labour as the tax along the banks of the main river generally, the condition of the natives in that region seems to have improved. But now, in penetrating the Hinterland and only a few days march from the great Congo river, imagine how keen and bitter was our disappointment at finding the old régime, so greatly denounced and discredited, still in operation."
The old régime is practically this—that by forced labour these natives have to bring in rubber. The compulsory period fixed is forty hours a month; but how does it work out for the natives? In actual experience in the district visited by the missionary from whose report I have quoted, it works out for them at six months, and in some cases at eight months, of laborious compulsory toil in the year in order to bring in the necessary rubber. And if they fail to bring in the rubber there must be some penalties, and therefore you have the old system going on throughout the whole of the unreformed, part of the Congo. For two years we have
46
had no Consular Reports telling us what is going on.
Those who are interested in the Congo have put their hands in their pockets and formed a considerable fund and, have sent out the Rev. John Harris, whose wife has accompanied him, to find out for us what is going on in the Congo. I look with extreme interest to the receipt of Mr. Harris's report. He is a man who can talk the language of the natives, and is well known to, and respected by, those who have anything to do with Congo reform. But why should it be necessary for us to send, out Mr. Harris? We have a Vice-Consul at Leopoldville, another in the Katanga, and another in the Kasai. But we do not get a word. They are as silent as the dark forests which hide the natives and the rubber. I think it is only right that we should ask that these reports should, be published. England has not recognised the annexation of the Congo by Belgium. According to the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs we are awaiting reports as to what is going on. But let the public know by means of the reports of their Consuls what is going on in this territory. I admit that there has been some reform, but this letter which I have quoted from the missionary is not good reading, and it is important that we should have official reports from our Consular officers.
I am not going to take any credit for all that has been done by Congo reformers, and I hope your Lordships will not think that we have other than a humanitarian interest in the matter. There is no question of acquisition of territory or of minerals, or anything of that kind. Speaking at the Guildhall banquet on November 9, 1910, the Prime Minister said—
"The agitation in this country with regard to Congo reform has been subjected to much criticism based on the assumption that it has some political motive. The agitation never had any such motive. It is disinterested; it is sincere; it has no ulterior or selfish end. It is in no sense impertinent, for it has regard to a territory and a population towards which by Treaty we have undertaken solemn obligations."
As we have undertaken solemn obligations by Treaty it is only right that we should know what is going on in the country in respect of which those obligations have been undertaken. I beg to put the Question which stands in my name, and to move that the Consular Reports which have been so long delayed be laid before the House.
Moved, That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty for further Papers relating to the Congo State.—(The Earl of Mayo.)
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, before the noble Viscount replies I should like to add a few words to what has been very clearly stated by the noble Earl who has just sat down. Eighteen months have passed since some of us, of whom I was one, took a somewhat active part in raising a protest against what we believed, and still believe, to be the unspeakable horrors that were then going on in the Congo State. I do not think it has often fallen to the lot of those who occupy the responsible position I do to receive such unqualified approval from all sorts of people as we received for the action we took in connection with that protest. Shortly after that protest—I do not say in consequence of it—a promise was given on behalf of the Belgian Government as regards certain changes that were to be brought into operation, and in England this was regarded as a sort of quieting assurance.
Those of us who took part in that protest now find ourselves in an exceedingly difficult position. If we again raise our voices and express our hesitation and doubt about what may now be happening in the limited region shrouded from our view in which reforms are said to be taking place, we are told that we are seeking to pull up the plant by the roots to see how it is growing and that time must be allowed for the reforms to bear fruit. On the other hand, time is a narcotic, and if we are silent it may be supposed that we are for the time being satisfied with regard to what may be going forward. The last official report from a Consul in the Congo Free State is nearly two years old. The fact of our having Consuls there has been advanced as an assurance that we would have the means of testing whether or not the changes hoped for were taking place. Without reports we are in a very helpless position. I agree that such sources of information as reports from travellers and missionaries may not be always judicial, and may have to be received with a certain amount of caution, although if ever there was a case in which the reports of the missionaries were justified when probed, it was in the Congo region. But we ought to have something we could rely upon in a different kind of way.
48
The reports which have trickled through in an unofficial way are almost uniformly to the bad. Reports about certain places on the river itself, where coinage for the purpose of barter has been substituted for the rougher methods that preceded it, show that there is a certain amount of amelioration. But missionaries who have penetrated a little further state that a few miles inland the mischief is, in some quarters where amelioration is supposed to be taking place, as bad as before. Then there are the reports from the Belgian authorities who are responsible for the administration, and if we are to receive with a certain caution reports from irresponsible travellers, it is not going too far to say that we must receive with very considerable caution the reports from those who are responsible for the administration, and are therefore judges in their own cause. If we turn from the Belgian who is responsible to the Belgian critic, we find that reformers in Belgium are profoundly dissatisfied with the information which reaches them from the Congo.
But the real source of information to which we are entitled to turn is our own Consular agents. The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs has told us again and again that we have those Consuls there, and may look to them for being kept in touch with what is happening, and he has told us that it will be on the strength of those Consular Reports that he will be obliged to form his opinion about what is actually taking place, and what ought to be now done, or left undone, by England, whether or not our protests require to be renewed, whether we are to express gratitude at the results, or whether the whole reform-plan has collapsed. The narcotic as regards time is showing itself to be productive of a great deal of mischief. It is suggested that, inasmuch as there are now no complaints, has not the time come for annexation. We want the facts in order to know whether or not we are to complain. Either reports from the Consuls do exist in the Foreign Office or they do not. If they do not, one asks why not? What are the Consuls about? Have the Consuls been pressed to send in reports? If, on the other hand, the reports do exist, is it really necessary that the public should be kept for two years in complete ignorance of what is happening in a region about which so much has been said?

49
In this House we are always ready to recognise the force of an appeal from the Foreign Office that it is not in the public interest at a given juncture that information should be given, but that cannot go on for years. One's fear is that the reports must be of such a character that to produce them would be to show the failure of the protests we have made, and a breach of the promises to which we have been urged to listen. Therefore I am grateful to the noble Earl for raising the question to-night, and I look forward with keen anxiety—and I am sure many outside will look forward with keen anxiety—to the reply which the noble Viscount will give to-night. I hope the noble Viscount will inform us whether official reports from the Consuls exist, and, if not, why not; and if they do exist, why the country is not put in possession of them, in order to know whether it is necessary to renew our protests with regard to one of the most intolerable episodes in ancient or modern history. A civilised country, owing to a series of events which I need not now recall, finds itself answerable for the well being of enormous numbers of people helplessly under its control in a region about which it is almost impossible to obtain first-hand information in the way in which we obtain it from other quarters. For these reasons I endorse with all my power the appeal of the noble Earl for further information upon a matter wherein we, too, have a very real responsibility.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN): My Lords, I certainly do not complain for a moment either of the noble Earl for raising this question or of any of the language used either by him or by the most rev. Primate. But we have to remember that this question is at this moment in a stage in which all of us who have had, to fight uphill battles have found questions. An operation of such a kind as the complete transformation of the old system of government in the Congo State is an enormous operation. The area is enormous. I forget its dimensions.
THE EARL OF MAYO: The unreformed part is as big as the Empire of Germany.
VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN: The area is enormous, communications are exceedingly difficult, the conditions of the communities concerned, are dark and bar-barons. Therefore a transformation in the fiscal, economic and social conditions of a strange pack of communities like that
50
cannot be the work of a few months. There always conies a time when those who have laboured hard, as the Congo Association have done—of which I am a member—to arouse the conscience of this country years ago, are not able to see the full fruitage of their hopes and efforts. But, of course, the whole set of circumstances have to be taken into consideration, and I declare that I do not think this arrangement which has come into force opening up these new areas within a period of two years leaves us wholly devoid of information as to what is going on in those open or partially opened areas. There are two or three reports, I think, in the Foreign Office. But I cannot think it is unjust to believe that it would be much better, before coming to a final judgment, to wait until we get evidence of what is going on in the larger portion of the area now opened up. There is nothing unreasonable in saying that before British opinion is again roused, if aroused it is to be, there should at least be every opportunity taken to get a thorough knowledge of the facts and, of the steps which have been already adopted.
In virtue of the Decree of March 22, 1910—of which to-day a translation has been placed in the Library of your Lordships' House—the system under which the rubber and ivory products of the country were exploited by the State—that system which produced the most hateful results is undoubtedly passing away. It involved a heavy tax in kind on the natives, and, the tax in kind, instead of through some species of coin, led to the most villainous acts and systems of oppression. Every effort was naturally made by the State officials to screw out as much as they possibly could, and an immense area of the country was so treated. In that area no private enterprise was permitted, so that the natives evidently had not the opportunity of obtaining money with which to pay their taxes, even if they had been allowed to do so. But by the Decree it was settled that the country should be opened up to trade in three sections. More than half was thrown open in July, 1910, and another section will be thrown open in July this year, while the third section will be opened in July, 1912. This will leave only a relatively very small area which is occupied by the companies whose concessions give them exclusive rights, and in which trade will still be restricted. Besides

51
the Decree there is in the Library a map explaining to your Lordships exactly how this great area is divided. There are other Decrees passed since 1909 which are calculated to improve the system of administration and to promote general trade.
The noble Earl said there was no doubt that according to some of the missionaries the old system was still going on. According, however, to the information at the disposal of the Government, I think that is a tremendous over-statement. The noble Earl and the most rev. Primate also ask why we do not produce the latest reports we have. There are now two Consular agents travelling in the more recently opened area. We are expecting their reports, I will not say daily, but within a moderate space of time, and the moment these reports have been considered by the Foreign Secretary they will be laid before Parliament. This is the point which seems to have puzzled the most rev. Primate; but it appears to the Government to be useless to ask His Majesty's Consular agents to furnish merely general reports on the state of things in the Congo until some accurate and pretty full idea can be formed of the effect which these reforms are taking, until they have been in operation at all events for some few months. At present the two Consular officers are engaged in an extensive tour, and it is the intention of the Government immediately their reports are received to publish them together with others that have recently arrived, and I hope that then your Lordships will be able to form a clear and well-supported idea of what is actually going on in that country.
The most rev. Primate made some reference about annexation. I must remind him that the Government have systematically refused to recognise annexation under the Act until they are able to lay before Parliament evidence to show that the actual state of things in the Congo with regard to the condition of the natives and the state of trade is such as brought us at any rate within a reasonably near approach of the fulfilment of our Treaty rights. Those in the Foreign Office who carefully watch this matter and my right hon. friend the Secretary of State are convinced, however, that there has undoubtedly been an improvement in the state of affairs. I sympathise with the impatience of the noble Earl and the most rev. Primate, but
52
I hope they will not allow that impatience to make them unjust or precipitate in forming a judgment. We are taking all the steps that can be taken to get information that can be depended upon. I observe that some remarks have been made in a rather hostile spirit to the Government on the ground of what is called the apologetic language used by His Majesty's representative in Brussels to the Belgian Government. You could not do a worse thing to promote the advance of reform in the Congo State, or to get support for the ideas of the best people in Belgium and in Great Britain than to let the Belgian Government feel that you are there as a sort of censor or as a rather over-fastidious schoolmaster. I am sure your Lordships will feel that to take steps of that kind would be the least likely of all policies to further the objects in view.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, I am not quite sure that the noble Viscount will feel that even his own reassuring speech in any way precludes us from being grateful to the noble Earl for having brought forward this question. I am confident that we would all endeavour to support the view contained in the noble Viscount's last sentence or two. We have not the slightest desire to do anything which would lead a friendly Government to feel that we were unduly pressing our views upon them at a time when we hope they are moving in the desired direction. On the other hand, I think the noble Viscount will see that the plea which he has made for not putting forward reports until the operation of reforms over the whole of the wide area can be ascertained and until there can be some completeness is one which must not be strained too far. The question cannot be left at the point at which it was left by the Memorandum of Sir Edward Grey now nearly two years old; and nobody can wonder that any member of Parliament, aware of all that has taken place before and who realises the language which the Foreign Secretary thought it necessary to employ to the Belgian Government nearly two years ago, should be a little surprised that in the whole of the interval we do not get any information whatever as to what has taken place. The Foreign Secretary remarked, on June 11, 1909, in reference to the question of boundaries—
"Tribes have in many cases shifted their quarters and emigrated to new districts; and the ravages of sickness and the results of the system of administration

53
pursued by the authorities during the last twenty years have swept away altogether the population of some districts and greatly reduced that of others."
The addition of two years to twenty years would be a serious item in this history unless we were satisfied that a better course was being pursued.
From the statement of the noble Viscount we have reason to hope that the reports which he promises us will come to hand very shortly will show a greatly improved state of things. I go so far as to say that not even our desire to co-operate with a friendly Government, not even our wish to avoid anything which could give pain, would justify us in leaving an obvious duty undertaken two years ago unless we are satisfied that during the intervening period there has been a real step towards reform. One must remember in this matter that those who are engaged on reform are not hampered as some have been who have had to carry out reforms in the East. The Congo State has produced enormous funds. A great deal of what is required to be done is merely a question of money. The removal possibly of some officials, the foregoing of some amount of taxation, the establishment of a coinage for money transaction—these are all matters which need some time and may need some expenditure of money, or rather the foregoing of some receipts, but I do not think the noble Viscount of all men will urge in this House that we can treat the matter which began, I think, in November, 1908, as in any way to be halted. This is not the acquisition of new country, or the establishment of new institutions. It is really the substitution, by a nation already in possession, of a better system than the one which has prevailed. They have ample funds and the whole official hierarchy at their back, and have, as we believe, the best wish to create in the new reign a different record from that which distinguished the old one before the State was taken over by the Government.
I still cannot help thinking that the Foreign Office were ill-advised in giving such a long halt as two years in the publication of these reports. As the most rev. Primate said, either these reports are in the Foreign Office or they ought to be. The plea that they would give only a partial view does not hold good, especially as reports from unofficial quarters give us
54
reason to fear that the view of the noble Viscount will prove to be too sanguine. I gathered, however, from what the noble Viscount said that we may expect these reports in the course of a few weeks at the latest.
VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN: I do not think I mentioned any time. The words I used were "within a near measure of time."
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I think the noble Viscount used the expression "almost at once." At any rate, I hope that before we part with this session we may see these reports. If after the adjournment for the Coronation they have not been presented I hope my noble friend will renew his Question, so that we may have an opportunity of considering the reports and discussing them before the year has gone too far. I venture to suggest that the Foreign Secretary should, if possible, communicate by telegraph with our Consuls and urge them to expedite their reports, on which so much expectation has been based, and which we heartily hope may go to show that a new era has been inaugurated throughout these regions.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

POOR LAW (IRELAND)
THE EARL OF MAYO: My Lords, I beg to move for the Return set out on the Paper. The form is taken from the Appendix to the Report of the Viceregal Commission on the Poor Law, and it is most important that we should distinguish between illegitimate and other children in the workhouses in Ireland. Further, by this Return we shall know at once what boards of guardians are putting into force the boarding-out system and what boards are not by reason of the class of children in their workhouses. Certain classes of children can be boarded out, but according to the law other classes cannot. I think this will be a most useful Return in view of some system of Poor-law reform being, as I hope, introduced in the near future throughout the United Kingdom.
Moved, That there be laid before the House a Return of the number and parentage of children maintained in Irish workhouses in the following form, viz.—

55

NUMBER AND PARENTAL CONDITION OF CHILDREN MAINTAINED IN THE WORKHOUSE ON THE DAY OF, 1911.

A.—Legitimate.

Union.

Children.

Ages.

Male.

Female.

Sick.

Healthy.

Under 2 years.

Over 2 Years, under 10 Years.

Over 10 Years.

(1)

(2)

(3)

(4)

(5)

(6)

(7)

continued

Children—continued

Parents.

Children, Orphan and Deserted.

All Children Boarded Out.

Length of Time in Workhouse.

Able-bodied.

Under 1 Month.

Over 1 Month, under 3 Months.

Over 3 Months, under 6 Months.

Over 6 Months, under 1 Year.

Over 1 Year.

Sick.

Aged and Infirm.

Lunatic, &c., and Epileptic.

Casuals or Ins and Outs.

Vagrants or Tramps.

Not Casuals or Vagrants.

(8)

(9)

(10)

(11)

(12)

(13)

(14)

(15)

(16)

(17)

(18)

(19)

(20)

B.—Illegitimate.

Union.

Children.

Ages.

Male.

Female.

Sick.

Healthy.

Under 2 Years.

Over 2 Years, under 10 Years.

Over 10 Years.

(1)

(2)

(3)

(4)

(5)

(6)

(7)

—(The Earl of Mayo.)
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS): My Lords, there is no objection to this Return being furnished, but its production will take a considerable time. It will necessitate a communication to every workhouse in Ireland. Therefore the noble Earl must be prepared to wait some time for the Return.
THE EARL OF MAYO: I presume it will be granted before the end of the year?
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: Yes, I think I can promise that.
On Question, Motion agreed to; and ordered accordingly.

EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (DURHAM, &c.) BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Education under the Education Acts, 1870 to 1907, to enable the Councils of the Administrative Counties of Durham, Montgomery, and Worcester, and the Urban District of Willesden to put in force the Lands Clauses Acts—Was presented by the Lord President (V. Morley of Blackburn); read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 66.)
House adjourned at twenty minutes before Seven o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.