Lords Sitting of 20 March 1911

Preamble
The Lord HAMPTON—Took the Oath.

FELIXSTOWE AND WALTON WATER BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1aand referred to the Examiners.
The Loan CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Southampton Corporation Tramways.
Coventry Corporation.
Hebburn Urban District Council.
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

MANCHESTER SHIP CANAL BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read, and ordered to he on the Table: The orders made on the 23rd and 28th of February last discharged, and Bill committed.
HASTINGS CORPORATION (WATER AND FINANCE) BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
GREAT YARMOUTH PORT AND HAVEN BILL. [H.L.]
The Order made on the 28th of February last appointing certain Lords the Select Committee to consider the Bill, discharged.
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Lord Kinnaird be proposed to the House as a Member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Ellenborough; react, and agreed to.
LONDON, BRIGHTON AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN Of COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on the 21st of February last and the 2nd instant discharged, and Bill committed.
RHYMNEY RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Orders made on the 23rd of February last and the 2nd instant discharged, and Bill committed.
METROPOLITAN WATER BOARD (NEW WORKS) BILL. [H.L.]
Message from the Commons—That they concur in the Resolution of this House communicated to them on the 13th instant, on the subject of the Metropolitan Water Board (New Works) Bill [H.L.], and that they have come to the following Resolution to which they desire the concurrence of this House, viz.: "That it is expedient that the Thames Conservancy Bill be referred to the same Joint Committee of. Lords and Commons": The said Message to be taken into consideration To-marrow.
SMALL OWNERSHIP AND NATIONAL LAND BANK BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to encourage the extension of small ownerships of agricultural land—Was presented by the Lord Dunmore (E. Dunmore); read la, and to be printed. (No. 36.)

TERRITORIAL FORCE MUSKETRY.
THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH THE EARL OF PORTSMOUTH rose to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War how many of the 180,724 men of the Territorial Army stated by him to have been tested in the musketry standard test on an open range failed to qualify.
The noble Earl said: My Lords, before I put this Question to my noble friend I would like to preface it with a few remarks. The noble Lord, in reply to a Question which I addressed to him on February 27 last, explained that there are several arms in the

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Territorial Force, such as Garrison Artillery and the Royal Army Medical Corps, who do not have to go through a course of musketry, and he proceeded to state that out of 195,585 men who were liable to do musketry, 180,724 had been tested in the standard test on an open range. There was a good deal of confusion in the minds of your Lordships as to what a standard test was, and my noble friend was asked a subsidiary question in regard to that by Lord Ampthill, and the reply he gave was that it was one and the same thing to have passed the standard test and to have fired a full course of musketry. It appears very clear that to pass the standard test does not entail qualification, still less efficiency. I do not wish to occupy your Lordships' time by quoting the musketry regulations; they are extremely intricate and difficult, and are very technical; and, after all, there are many cases over-ridden by the power given to the commanding officer to even change the musketry regulations as laid down. I should like to call your Lordships' attention to a reply given by the Secretary of State for War in the other House in response to Mr. Bennett-Goldney, the Member for Canterbury. The right hon. gentleman stated, a few days after our discussion in this House, that 68,673 men of the Territorial Force had not qualified, as against 126,912 who had done so. That gives a totally different impression from that which was left upon the minds of your Lordships when the matter was discussed in this House, because, according to the Secretary of State's figures, one in three of the total Force have failed to qualify. That is the reason why I ask my noble friend to give the information set forth in my Question.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD LUCAS): My Lords, the actual figures for which the noble Earl asks are as follow: 180,724 men were tested on an open range; of these, 126,912 qualified, leaving 53,812 who failed in the standard test. But, of course, there were a certain number—24,460—who, although they failed in the standard test, did qualify under the alternative methods provided for, in the Regulations. If I may be allowed to do so, I would like to make one or two remarks on the general question of the musketry test.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Would the noble Lord explain the figures given by
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the Secretary of State in the other House and to which the noble Earl, Lord Portsmouth, referred?
LORD LUCAS: There were 180,000 odd men tested on an open range; there were, I think, about 15,000 who were not tested on an open range—195,000 is the total strength of those who ought to have been tested. The number of those who were tested is, as I have said, 180,000; out of that number, 53,000 failed; and if you add those two figures together—the 53,000 who failed and the 15,000 who were not tested—they give, I think, the figure which my right hon. friend mentioned in the House of Commons.
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: How many did the noble Lord say were unable to compete at all
LORD LUCAS: I said roughly 15,000. There has been this year very general improvement in the musketry of the Territorial Force. An altogether higher standard has been reached, and it has been reached by very much larger numbers than was the case this time last year. That has been due partly to greater efforts on the part of the officers and men concerned, partly to the efforts we have made to acquire additional ranges, and partly to the fact that we have provided and are providing a considerable number of 30-yards ranges and miniature ranges. But we are very slow, I am sorry to say, in getting new ranges. A considerable number are still required, and we are engaged in the acquisition of ranges at the present moment. Their acquisition, however, is difficult. There is difficulty, in the first instance, in finding a site, and then the process of acquisition is very slow.
With regard to the standard test itself, the figures constitute a useful guide, but I think it would he a mistake to attach too much importance to them. And for this reason. The considerable number of failures to pass the standard test are due, first, to lack of range accommodation, and, secondly, to lack of opportunity. In a great many cases in places where there are a large number of units of the Territorial Force we have range accommodation for everybody; the accommodation, however, is in some cases crowded, and it becomes

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necessary to tell off to units certain days when they may have the use of the range. In those circumstances it very often becomes necessary to lay down that the standard test shall be fired on a certain day for a particular unit. If a man, for any reason, is prevented from going to the range to be tested on that day, he has to be returned as inefficient, though he may have gone through the whole of his preliminary musketry and be able to pass the standard test easily.
The same thing applies with regard to the conditions under which tests are very often fired. There have been many cases where very bad weather conditions have existed on the day when the test was fired and caused a very bad result. One very striking instance of that came to my notice. In one of the Northern Divisions there is a battalion which, according to the view held by the officer commanding the Division, is probably far the best battalion at musketry in the Division. The battalion takes particular pains with its musketry; it puts all its men through a very careful progressive course of training, and towards the end of the season it puts them through the standard test. Last year that battalion came out the worst of the whole twelve battalions in the Division, and that was simply owing to extremely bad weather. There is another reason why you cannot altogether go by the standard test. In the case of one battalion, for which we have not yet been able to obtain range accommodation, it was arranged last year that they should do their musketry in camp. They went into camp, but the officer in command, finding that he would not have time to put the whole of the battalion through the whole course, including the standard test, did not put any of them through the standard test. Nevertheless, he took them through a considerable amount of musketry; they fired between 30,000 and 40,000 rounds of ammunition; yet they had to be returned as not one single man having qualified in the standard test. I give these instances to show that, although the standard test is a useful guide, you cannot take the figures simply as they stand, without any qualification whatever, as at all a fair standard of what the musketry of the Territorial Force is. We are not the least satisfied ourselves yet, and we are making all the efforts we can to provide further range accommodation—open ranges, 30-yards ranges, and miniature ranges.
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I am sure that the chief thing that is the matter with the musketry of the Territorial Force is lack of accommodation, and that is a deficiency which will put itself right, I hope, in a short time.
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to say a word or two on this important subject before we leave it. I should like to add my own experience to what has fallen from the noble Lord opposite. Two of the great difficulties which the Territorial Force have to face with regard to musketry are lack of ranges and lack of opportunity to use them, and one reason for that lack of opportunity is the crowded nature of the ranges and the difficulty of allocating time to the various units that have to fire on particular ranges. In my own county we have had at least one range—I think two—condemned. That means that the units which use those ranges have to make other arrangements, and fresh arrangements are not made without considerable difficulty.
I think everybody will admit that the country has a right to have a sufficient and efficient standard of musketry, and it will be the duty of those who are interested in the Territorial Force to do what they can to see that that standard is reached. But there is one thing that ought to be borne in mind. It has been continually thrown in our teeth that a very large number of the Territorial Force never fired a shot at all last year. In ninety-nine cases out of every hundred that has been due to the fact that there has been no opportunity to fire. The General Officer commanding the Northern Command complained a good deal of the standard of musketry and pressed very strongly the benefit of week-end camps. I do not know whether the noble Lord has considered the possibility of encouraging week-end camps. Our own experience has been that where we have been able to avail ourselves of them the result has been very satisfactory. In one case a company which I could name got eighty per cent. of full marks after two days at the range at a weekend camp. But we have found that what is necessary to supply these camps is not always forthcoming, and that when application has been made there has been great difficulty in supplying the units with what is necessary for these week-end camps. The matter is of great importance. I do not ask for any additional grant, for we all

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recognise that the War Office and the Exchequer have treated us very generously this year.
There is another difficulty with regard to week-end camps. It is that when men go down on a Friday and shoot on the Saturday and, where the conditions are favourable, on the Sunday, a good deal of objection has been taken to Sunday firing. If my historical education is correct, there was a time, in the days of the bow and arrow, when young men in the parishes were fined if they did not shoot on Sundays. When it is remembered that arrangements are made for attending Church Parades in the mornings, I think there should be consideration shown to these men in their endeavour to perfect themselves in what is, after all, an essential part of their training.
THE DUKE OF BEDFORD: I should like to ask the noble Lord the Under-Secretary of State for War whether open ranges include 30-yards ranges. The noble Lord mentioned a certain number of men who became qualified in musketry by means alternative to the standard test. Does that allude to men who fire a certain number of rounds, and, irrespective of the result of their practice, become qualified?
LORD LUCAS: We use the term "open range" as meaning the full-size range, not the 30-yards range. With regard to the noble Duke's second question, he will find the whole thing in Paragraph 361 of the Territorial Force Regulations, which gives an alternative for the purpose of qualifying for the grant. The alternative is—
"One attendance at an open range for the purpose of firing the practices of the standard test, and in addition two attendances at an open, miniature cartridge, or 30-yards range, provided that not less than 50 rounds of ball ammunition or the equivalent value in miniature ammunition have been expended during the year."
There is a further alternative in the case of recruits, the first provision of which is for the purpose of coaching the bad shot, and the second for the purpose of dealing with those cases where there is lack of range accommodation. With regard to what the noble Earl, Lord Dartmouth, said, I should like to say that we are very much in favour of week-end camps for the purpose of musketry, and the grants given which can be applied to those and other purposes have been considerably increased this year.

INVESTMENTS UNDER THE IRISH LAND ACT.
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether any investments have been sanctioned by the Public Trustee under the Irish Land Act, 1909, in addition to those mentioned in the list given by the Chief Secretary in another place on 6th July last; and, if the answer is in the affirmative, to ask for a list of such investments.
The noble Earl who represents the Irish Office has been good enough to allow me to speak with him privately on the subject of my Question, and I should like also to ask whether His Majesty's Government could see their way to let us know the facts such as I ask for this afternoon at periodical intervals. The information is of great value to landlords when they are receiving capital money through the Estates Commissioners as the result of sales, and if the noble Earl could see his way to lay a list on the Table or publish it at quarterly or other convenient intervals, it would be of great convenience to all concerned.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: My Lords, perhaps before the noble Earl replies to my noble friend's Question he will allow me to ask whether His Majesty's Government have any intention of introducing legislation for the purpose of allowing trustees in Great Britain to take advantage of the section in the Irish Land Act which permits investment in securities which at present are not permitted to trust funds in this country.
THE EARL OF GRANARD: My Lords, the securities sanctioned by the Public Trustee (Ireland) under the Irish Land Act, 1909, in addition to those mentioned in the list given by the Chief Secretary on July 6, 1910, are thirty-nine in number—viz.: Argentine Government 4.½per Cent. Internal Gold Loan, 1888; Argentine Government 4 per Cent. Rescission Bonds; Argentine Government 5 per Cent. 1884 Bonds; Argentine Government 4 per Cent. 1897 Bonds; Brazilian Government 4 per Cent. 1910 Loan; Brazilian Government 4½ per Cent. 1888 Loan; Brazilian Government 5 per Cent. 1908 Loan; Brazilian Government 5 per Cent. 1895 Loan; Cuban Government 4&3x00BD; per Cent. Gold Bonds; Chilian Government 5 per Cent. 1905 Loan; Chilian Government 5 per Cent. 1896 Bonds; Chinese Government 5 per Cent. 1896 Gold

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Bonds; Chinese Government 5 per Cent. Tientsin-Pukow Railway Loan; Chilian Government 5 per Cent. New Loan; Egyptian Government 3½per Cent. Preference; Greek Government 4 per Cent. Railway Loan, 1902; Mexican Government 5 per Cent. Gold Loan; Russian Government 4½ per Cent. Gold 1909 Loan; Siamese. Government. 4½ per Cent. Sterling Bonds; Salvador Republic 6 per Cent. Sterling Bonds; Spanish Government 4 per Cent. Sealed Bonds; San Paulo 5 per Cent. Treasury Bonds; Uruguay 3½per Cent. Bonds; Baltimore and Ohio Railway Company 4 per Cent. First Mortgage Gold Bonds; Chesapeake and Ohio Railway 4½per Cent. 20 Years, Convertible Gold Bonds; Chicago, Milwaukee, and St. Paul Railway 4 per Cent. General Mortgage Bonds, 1989; Illinois Central Railway 4 per Cent. Gold loads, 1933; Minneapolis, St. Paul, and Sault St. Marie Railway 4 per Cent. First Mortgage Gold Bonds; New York Central and Michigan Collateral 3½per Cent. 1998 Gold Bonds; Norfolk and Western Railway 4 per Cent. First Lien and General Mortgage 1944 Gold Bonds; Pennsylvania Railway 4 per Cent. Consolidated Mortgage Bonds, 1948; Southern Pacific Railway 4 per Cent. Central Pacific Collateral Gold Bonds; Southern Pacific Railway 4 per Cent. 20 Years Convertible Gold Bonds; Southern Pacific Railway 4 per Cent. First Refunding, Gold Bonds; Union Pacific Railway 4 per Cent. First Lien and Refunding Mortgage Gold Bonds; Argentine Great Western Railway 4 per Cent. First Debenture Stock; Argentine Great Western Railway 4 per Cent. Second Irredeemable Debenture Stock; Buenos Aires and Pacific Railway 4 per Cent. First. Debenture Stock; and the Buenos Aires and Pacific Railway 4½per Cent. Second Debenture Stock.
In reply to the noble Earl's second Question, I am glad to be able to inform him that the additions to the list will in future be published quarterly. It is only right for me to say in this respect that when these publications take place, either by Return or reply to Questions in the House, the fact does not absolve in any way intending investors from getting sanction from the Public Trustee. As the result of the answer given in another place on July 6 last year a great many trustee investors seemed to think that they were absolved from the necessity of obtaining permission, and I only mention that this is not so in order to bring the matter to the notice of the public. The
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noble Lord on the Cross Benches (Lord Oranmore and Browne) will, I am sure, readily understand that I am not in a position to answer his question off-hand, but I will undertake to see that his suggestion is brought to the notice of the public Department concerned.

TERRITORIAL FORCE ABSENTEES.
LORD NEWTON LORD NEWTON rose to ask the. Under-Secretary of State for War how many officers and men respectively were absent from camp in 1910 without leave, and whether any penalties were imposed upon such absentees.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in putting this Question perhaps it may be as well if I convert it into sense by explaining that the words "Territorial Force" have been omitted, and that my inquiry relates to that branch of the Service only. I gather that the number of officers and men absent without leave during last year amounts to a somewhat large figure. Unless I am mistaken, the number is 700 officers and over 10.000 men, which forms a not altogether inconsiderable proportion of the entire Force. Absence without leave is. I believe, considered a serious military offence. It certainly is not less serious in the case of this particular Force than in that of any other, because—quite rightly—every care is taken to put the individual to as little inconvenience as possible. I am aware that there are regulations which deal with this offence, but, so far as I am able to gather, in practice the method of dealing with this offence is, as a rule, left to the discretion of the commanding officer, and the result, as I understand, is something in this nature. If the man who has absented himself without leave does not happen to be a resident in the district he is given up more or less as a bad job and no steps are taken to endeavour to find him and punish him. But in the case of a man who resides in the neighbourhood, if he is proceeded against he immediately becomes an object of sympathy. The result is that the practice of prosecuting men for this offence tends to promote unpopularity for the Force. I think it will be admitted that this is a somewhat unsatisfactory state of affairs; and in view of expressions which I seem to remember which were made use of sonic years ago as to the relentless and remorseless way in which efficiency would be insisted upon, I think I am justified in

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asking for information on this particular point without implying any disparagement of the Territorial Force.
LORD LUCAS: It would be interesting to know from where the noble Lord got his figures, because I am glad to say that they are very far from being accurate. Indeed, they are very much in excess of the actual numbers.
LORD NEWTON: I took the figures from a reply given in the House of Commons.
LORD LUCAS: It could not have been to the same question as the noble Lord has asked because the number of officers and men who were absent from camp in 1910 without leave were—officers, 44; noncommissioned officers and men, 4,778. Officers whose absence without leave was not accounted for in an entirely satisfactory manner were called upon to resign their commissions. As regards non-commissioned officers and men there are no statistics showing to what extent penalties were imposed, but it is common knowledge that there was a considerable number of
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prosecutions undertaken by County Associations under the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act, and those prosecutions would have been, in the majority of cases, if not all, against men who were absent from camp without leave.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The noble Lord has given figures as to officers and men absent from camp without leave. Does that mean absent from the whole of the camp, or absent from camp during a part of the period?
LORD LUCAS: The figures I gave are the number who were absent from camp the whole time.
LORD NEWTON: I should like to say that the figures which I quoted were taken from a Ministerial reply given to Mr. Ashley, I think last week, in the House of Commons.
House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.