Lords Sitting of 21 February 1911

Preamble
Several Lords—Took the Oath.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:
Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways.
Also the Certificates that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Brighton, Hove and District Railless Traction. [H.L.]
Barry Railway. [H.L.]
Chester Water. [H.L.]
Great Northern Railway (Ireland) (SUSPENDED BILL).
London, Tilbury and Southend Railway. [H.L.]
Manchester Ship Canal. [H.L.]
Midland Railway. [H.L.]
North-Eastern Railway. [H.L.]
Rhymney Railway. [H.L.]
Rochdale Market. [H.L.]
Great Western Railway. [H.L.]
Whaley Bridge Gas. [H.L.]
Chapel-en-le-Frith, Chinley and District Gas. [H.L.]
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

LONDON, BRIGHTON AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
  LONDON, BRIGHTON AND SOUTH COAST RAILWAY (STEAM VESSELS) BILL. [H.L.]
  Read 2a and committed: The Committees to he proposed by the Committee of Selection.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 12) BILL.
Brought from the Commons, and (pursuant to the Resolutions of the 23rd day of November last respecting Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills); read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 16.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 13) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read la; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 17.)
WARRINGTON CORPORATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons, and (pursuant to the Resolutions of the 23rd day of November last respecting Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills); read la, 2a, and committed.

PADDINGTON BOROUGH COUNCIL (SUPERANNUATION AND PENSIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
POPLAR BOROUGH COUNCIL (SUPERANNUATION AND PENSIONS) BILL.[H.L.]
CHARLES SHEILS' CHARITY BILL. [H.L]
SWINTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Committed.

ABERDARE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
AFON LWYD VALLEY SEWERAGE BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL. [H.L.]
EASTERN VALLEY OF MONMOUTHSHIRE SEWERAGE BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
ELY RURAL DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
GREAT YARMOUTH PORT AND HAVEN BILL. [H.L.]
HARROGATE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L]
HASTINGS CORPORATION (WATER AND FINANCE) BILL. [H.L.]
KINGSTON-UPON-HULL CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
MALVERN ELECTRIC TRACTION BILL. [H.L.]
MATLOCK DISTRICT RAILLESS TRACTION BILL. [H.L.]
METROPOLITAN WATER BOARD (NEW WORKS) BILL. [H.L.]
OYSTERMOUTH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
RHONDDA URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [H.L.]
SLOUGH URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
THORNEY DRAINAGE BILL. [H.L.]
WINCHESTER CORPORATION (ELECTRIC SUPPLY) BILL. [H.L.]
Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
Report by the Chairman of Committees of the House of Lords and the Chairman of Ways and Means in the House of Commons:
1. The t the provisions of—

The Clyde Navigation Order;

The Dundee Harbour and Tay Ferries Order;

The Dundee Harbour (Constitution) Order;

The Dunfermline Burgh Extension and. Drainage Order and clauses 3, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11 of the Lanarkshire Tramways Order

are of such a character that they ought to be dealt with by Private Bill and not by Provisional Order:
2. That, save as aforesaid, the Draft Provisional Orders be allowed to proceed, subject to such recommendations as may hereafter be made with respect to the several Orders:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

UNION OF BENEFICES (METROPOLIS) ACT, 1860.
Scheme of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for affecting an union of the benefice of Christ Church, Spitalfields, and the benefice of St. Mary, Spital Square, or Spitalfields: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 18.)
MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to order) Bill reported without amendment.

ASYLUMS OFFICERS SUPERANNUATION.
LORD MONK BRETTON LORD MONK BRETTON rose to ask His Majesty's Government whether the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown had been taken on any question relating to the administration of the Asylums Officers Superannuation Act, 1909, and whether His Majesty's Government would make any statement on the subject.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, although I was in charge of this measure when it was before your Lordships' House it. 1909, I make no apology for asking His Majesty's
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Government questions with regard to it, because we had very little assistance from the Government until the Bill reached the Third Reading. Questions of doubt have arisen, and I hope His Majesty's Government will be able to assist us with legal opinions upon them. The most important question is connected with Section 15, the section which allows an appeal to the Home Secretary. As your Lordships will remember, the right to a pension depends on having contributed during the period of service, and I he point arises whether there lies an appeal to the Home Secretary on the question of the right to contribute for pension. The point is, as I have said, an important one, and I trust that His Majesty's Government will be able to answer it satisfactorily. I the more hope that His Majesty's Government will answer it because in November, 1910, a question was addressed to Mr. Churchill in another place, in reply to which he said he was taking the opinion of the Law Officers op the point.
And out of that arises the second question. When the Home Secretary gives his decision as to whether or not a certain man is an established officer, will he decide also whether he is in Class 1 or Class 2? I know that the classification lies with the local authority, but I think it is important that in a question of this sort the Home Secretary should state whether the man is to be in Class 1 or Class 2. From that we get to the third question. Supposing a man in Class 2 appeals to be put in Class 1, is that a matter in which an appeal lies under Section 15? I believe those are all legal questions, and as I understand that the Law Officers of the Crown are considering the matter I hope we shall be given their opinion.
The matter is one of importance, because the issue has become more involved lately. Last March the Lunacy Commissioners invited a conference to consider questions connected with this Act. They invited the Medical Psychological Society, the asylum workers, the County Councils Association, and the representatives of Visiting Committees, but after the conference was held the Commissioners stated no opinion in writing in regard to their views, and different people said different things about what took place at that conference. The County Councils Association issued a circular to the local

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authorities in which they stated that Class I was to consist of the medical staff and the attendants and nurses directly engaged in care or charge, and that Class 2 was to consist of those whose duties were merely incidental to looking after patients. They represented that as the opinion of the Commissioners. That statement of the County Councils Association is disputed by the Medical Psychological Society, and the Home Secretary was asked in the other House last April whether any authoritative statement had been issued with regard to the administration of this Act. Mr. Churchill replied that no directions had been issued with the sanction of the Home Office. Therefore the statement of the County Councils Association need not he taken as official.
There is a lack of uniformity at present in the way in which this Act is administered. The noble Earl the First Commissioner of Works comes from Worcestershire. That is a county which has distinguished itself from other counties in regard to the treatment it has accorded to a gardener. This gardener is in charge of patients under the rules of the asylum, but because he is not a medical attendant he has, I understand, been refused a pension. In the West Riding of Yorkshire, again, the chaplain has been excluded altogether from the benefit of the Act. It is a hard matter to expect these poor people to establish their claims, as I believe they can only do if the matter is left in complete doubt, by a suit in the Court of Chancery. This is much too expensive for them, and His Majesty's Government ought to come to their assistance by making a clear and concise statement with regard to these points.
There is one other point that I would ask His Majesty's Government to clear up, rather in the interests of the local authorities. It relates to Section 12 of the Act, which states that pensions are to be paid out of the fund out of which the
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salary or wages and emoluments are paid. In most cases that would be the maintenance fund of the asylum, but a case has arisen where a carpenter's salary is paid out of the building. fund, and con- building sequently his pension would be paid out of that fund, and would, therefore, be in a different category from the pensions of most other officers. The point is not a large one, but I have called attention to it as it may have come under the purview of the Law Officers of the Crown. I beg to put the Question standing in my name.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown is being taken by the Home Office with reference to several questions which have arisen under the Asylums Officers Superannuation Act, 1909, in connection with appeals to the Secretary of State under Section 15 of the Act by officers and servants of certain asylums. The Law Officers are being asked to advise as to the extent of the Secretary of State's jurisdiction to determine disputes as to the right to superannuation allowance or as to the amount of such allowance, and generally as to the circumstances in which there is any appeal from the decision of a Visiting Committee under the Act. As soon as the opinion of the Law Officers is received the effect of it will be made known to Visiting Committees and others who may be concerned. I may add that the Local Government Board have already obtained from the Law Officers an opinion as to the proper construction to be placed on Section 12 of the Act, with reference to the fund out of which superannuation allowances and gratuities are to be paid, and the effect of this opinion is being communicated in a circular-letter—a copy of which I will hand to the noble Lord—to the Visiting Committees of asylums in England and Wales.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.