Lords Sitting of 15 February 1911

BARON KILBRACKEN.
Sir Arthur Godley, G.C.B., having been created Baron Kilbracken of Killegar, in the County of Leitrim—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.
Several Lords—Took the Oath.

ABERDARE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
AFON LWYD VALLEY SEWERAGE BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL. [H.L.]
ELY RURAL DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
HARROGATE CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
HASTINGS CORPORATION (WATER AND FINANCE) BILL. [H.L.]
KINGSTON-UPON-HULL CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
MALVERN ELECTRIC TRACTION BILL. [H.L.]
MATLOCK DISTRICT RAILLESS TRACTION BILL. [H.L.]
METROPOLITAN WATER BOARD (NEW WORKS) BILL. [H.L.]
OYSTERMOUTH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
RHONDDA URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
EASTERN VALLEY OF MONISMOUTHSHIRE SEWERAGE BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
GREAT YARMOUTH PORT AND HAVEN BILL. [H.L.]
PADDINGTON BOROUGH COUNCIL (SUPERANNUATION AND PENSIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
POPLAR BOROUGH COUNCIL (SUPERANNUATION AND PENSIONS) BILL. [H.L.]
CHARLES SHELLS' CHARITY BILL. [H.L.]
SLOUGH URBAN DISTRICT WATER BILL. [H.L.]
SWINTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
THORNEY DRAINAGE BILL. [H.L.]
WINCHESTER CORPORATION (ELECTRIC SUPPLY) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.

GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (IRELAND) BILL.
Brought from the Commons and (pursuant to the Resolutions of the 23rd day of November last respecting Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills) read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
LOCAL FINANCIAL ADJUSTMENTS.
Message from the Commons that they concur, as desired by this House, in the Resolution of this House communicated to them on the 14th instant—viz.: "That it is desirable that a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament be appointed to inquire into the application of the provisions contained in the Local Government Acts, 1888 and 1894, and the Local Government (Scotland) Acts, 1889 and 1894, relating to financial adjustments consequent on the alteration of the boundaries of a local government area or on an alteration in the constitution or status of the governing body of a local government area, and to report. to the House if they are of opinion that any amendments in such provisions are desirable."
PUBLIC HOUSES IMPROVEMENT BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to facilitate the provision of accommodation for supplying food and other improvements in connection with premises licensed for the sale of intoxicating liquors by retail—Was presented by the Lord Lamington; read la, and to be printed. (No. 13.)
SHOP HOURS ACT, 1904.
Order made by the Council of the County Borough of Bury, and confirmed by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, fixing the hours of closing for a certain class of shops within the County Borough: Order for printing same, discharged.
ENDOWED SCHOOLS ACTS, 1869 TO 1889.
Scheme for the administration of the educational foundation of Ellin Humphrey, in the ancient parishes of Llanenddwyn and Llanddwywe, in the County of Merioneth: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 14.)

THE DECLARATION OF LONDON.
LORD ELLENBOROUGH: My Lords, I think it is clue to the House that I should give my reasons for withdrawing the Notice that is down in my name for to-morrow night with reference to the Declaration of London—namely:
"To call attention to some of the reasons why the Declaration of London should not be ratified."
Since putting this Notice on the Paper I have been informed that a good deal of important correspondence is going on between the Foreign Office and the Associated Chambers of Commerce, and that both parties are agreed that it would be undesirable to have a discussion while this correspondence continued. I regret very much that the discussion of this subject is postponed. as I think there certainly ought to be a debate on it in this House before it is brought up in the other House. In the meantime I would suggest to His Majesty's Government that they might send the Declaration down to Portsmouth to be discussed by the officers going through the war course there, and that those officers should be asked their opinion as to the effect which the Declaration, if strictly carried out, would have on naval
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strategy in the North Sea, and what could be done to prevent neutral ships, or ships disguised as neutrals, approaching our men-of-war provided the Declaration is strictly adhered to. I would also ask whether any noble Lord on the Government Bench can tell me when it is likely that the correspondence to which I have referred will come to an end, so that the subject may be brought before this House.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN): My Lords, if I may say so, the noble Lord has acted wisely in suspending—it is not more than that—the Motion which was down on the Paper for to-morrow night. Your Lordships will probably remember that in the debate on the Address my noble friend the Leader of the House said that we proposed to defer consideration of the Declaration until after, or, at all events, during the tune of, the Conference, and we understood by a gesture by the noble Marquess opposite that he did not dissent from that intention. The noble Lord puts the issue too narrowly when he says that we are waiting for the correspondence with the Chambers of Commerce. A much wider set of considerations than that correspondence is affected and has to be taken in view. The noble Lord is mistaken in thinking that there could have been any discussion in another place. What the Government said in answer to questions in the House of Commons was that the matter was under discussion and consideration, and we could say nothing; and I am afraid that would have been the substance of my answer to the noble Lord to-morrow night if he had proceeded with the matter.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, the noble Viscount has referred to me, and I am anxious that there should be no misunderstanding as to our position in regard to this matter. I gathered from what I think was said by the noble Earl the Leader of the House that it was intended to bring up the Declaration of London for discussion at the Colonial Conference, and I may have made a gesture which seemed to signify approval of that proposal. But I certainly did not intend to convey the idea that, in my view, the reference of the Declaration of London to the Colonial Conference was in any way to preclude us from discussing the matter in this House

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should any Peer desire to bring it before your Lordships. I am under the impression, on the contrary, that the matter is likely to be brought up, and I cannot but think that the discussion will be extremely useful.
VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN: We may have misinterpreted the gesture of the noble Marquess. There is nothing at all unreasonable in the position he now takes up, and we shall be ready to meet the noble Marquess and his friends when the time comes.
LORD ELLENBOROUGH: I may say that 1 think it highly desirable that a discussion should take place in this House, so that the members of the Imperial Conference will be able to read that debate in Hansard before they come to conclusions themselves on arriving in this country.

THE WHITE SEA FISHERIES.
LORD NUNBURNHOLME LORD NUNBURNHOLME rose to ask His Majesty's Government what steps they proposed to take to protect British fishery interests in the waters of the Archangel district in view of the proposed Russian law to eliminate the three mile limit, extending the same to twelve miles.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, in putting this Question I desire to say that do not wish to place any difficulties in the way of His Majesty's Government. As your Lordships are aware, there is a three mile limit round the coast of all European countries inside which no one is allowed to fish unless he belongs to that particular country. A certain Russian subject has lately purchased one or two old English trawlers and wishes to have the whole of the Archangel district of the White Sea put under the proposed Russian law for him to fish in. This is quite contrary to the present law, and I hope His Majesty's Government will not allow the existing three mile limit to be extended. It has been in existence for many years, and upon it are based many naval and commercial international rights. Only last week a leading Russian newspaper asserted that territorial limits were merely limited by the gun fire of shore batteries. Under that assumption the French Republic and the British Government might equally claim to control the Straits of Dover, and I am sure it would lead to endless international difficulties if our Foreign Office allowed to go through this proposal
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extending the three mile limit to twelve miles. We do not stand alone in this matter; it affects other nations, but it affects this country perhaps more than any other, as the waters round our coast are comparatively shallow for a good way out whereas round the coasts of Norway, Iceland, Denmark, and Russia the waters become deep almost immediately, so that if they were allowed to extend the three mile limit to twelve miles it would practically preclude any foreigner from fishing in their fishing ground at all. Then there is another difficulty. It is very hard for any fisherman, or, indeed, any naval officer, to say, especially in hazy weather, whether or not a vessel is within the twelve mile limit, and there would be great probability of many squabbles in the Law Courts on this point. I hope His Majesty's Government will stand firm for international and British rights in this particular case. I beg to put the Question that stands in my name.
*VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN: My Lords, I am glad my noble friend has not extended and amplified the various issues that might easily have been raised upon this point. I would only say this about the three mile limit. Those who arc well acquainted with the various views that have been taken by various nations of the sacro-sanctity of the three mile limit are aware that though the principle has always been firmly upheld by His Majesty's Government other Governments have occasionally put forward claims opposed to it. My noble friend said he hoped His Majesty's Government would stand firm in vindication of the rights and interests of British fishermen. I think there is no question whatever of the firm resolution of His Majesty's Government not to give way in that respect; and perhaps the shortest way of convincing your Lordships that that is so will be for me to state exactly what has happened.
We have been informed by the noble Lord that the reason for the introduction of the Bill by the Russian Government is that they probably want to foster their own trawling industry, which is at present in its infancy. They also wish to prevent the continued destruction of what are called worse seal, and bear I am not enough of a naturalist to be able to define what those creatures are—along the northern coast by Norwegian fishermen.

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Last summer the Russian authorities arrested the British trawler "Onward Ho!" off the north coast for illegal trawling outside the three mile limit—they considered it illegal. In consequence of representations made by His Majesty's Government as to the capture having been made on the high seas, the Russian Government had to release the vessel, and His Majesty's Government have handed in a claim for compensation. It was probably this case that lead the Russian Government to take such steps as in their opinion would vindicate their position, and they accordingly introduced a Bill to regulate trawling on the northern coast without any further delay. British trawlers only fish for plaice, it appears, and we are assured by the secretary of the National Sea Fisheries Protection Association that they never have any reason for going within the three mile limit, except, of course when compelled by the state of the weather.
For several years past His Majesty's Government have contributed to the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea, which is studying the state and nature of the fisheries of the North Sea. This body have not yet completed their investigations, but the work they are at present engaged upon is explained on p. 141 of the North Sea Fisheries Blue Book [Cd. 5022]. As the House well knows from the many discussions on this subject which have taken place during the last ten or twelve years, it is not merely fishery interests that are concerned. There are, too, broad and very important national interests. In time of war those interests might be of the most serious kind, and before, therefore, we could agree to an international convention providing for the national control of fisheries and spawning grounds beyond the present three mile limit these investigations must be brought, if not to a close, to a further stage. My noble friend may be quite sure that we are protesting, and that we shall protest, if necessary, again. This very morning a telegram was received from the Ambassador at St. Petersburg giving the latest views of the Russian Government in reply to our protest. That telegram has, of course, not yet been considered, but my noble friend and your Lordships may feel quite assured that we are alive to all the considerations that are involved in this new departure, and that we shall
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certainly defend every right and every interest., whether narrow or broad, which is involved in the matter.

MUNICIPAL ELECTIONS BILL. [H.L.]
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD FARQUHAR: My Lords. I have the privilege for the third time of introducing to your Lordships' notice a Bill which proposes to amend the Municipal Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Practices) Act, 1884. I have on two previous occasions gone fully into the objects and details of this proposed change in the law relating to the conduct of elections. I must almost apologise for troubling your Lordships on this third occasion, but I am anxious to lose no time, so that the Bill may at last have a free passage in another place. This Bill has, as your Lordships are aware, already received the cordial support of the Lord Chancellor and of Lord James of Hereford. Its object, stated shortly, is to extend to municipal candidates the same protection against slanderous and mendacious statements at election times as that possessed by Parliamentary candidates under the provisions of the Corrupt and Illegal Practices Prevention Act of 1895. This Act provides an immediate remedy by summary proceedings against any person who circulates slanderous statements against a candidate at election times, often made just before the poll and when too late to be corrected. Your Lordships will doubtless have seen in a recent report of a case of the nature which would be affected by this Bill how tardy and ineffectual is the civil remedy. This Bill would act as a wholesome deterrent; it is not contentious, and it will, I feel sure, receive the general support and approval of your Lordships' House.
Moved. That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Farquhar.)
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.
House adjourned at ten minutes before Five o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.