Lords Sitting of 15 December 1911

JUDICIAL BUSINESS.
Ordered, That this House do meet on Monday next at a quarter before Eleven o'clock for the purpose of hearing and determining Appeals and matters connected therewith, pursuant to the provisions of the Appellate Jurisdiction Act, 1876; and that during such meeting of the House leave be given to the Appeal Committee to meet and appoint their own Chairman.
ANCIENT MONUMENTS BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to amend the Ancient Monuments Protection Acts, 1882 to 1900, and further to protect Ancient Monuments—Was presented by the Lord Eversley; read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 253.)
BANKRUPTCY BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to amend the Law with respect to Bankruptcy and Deeds of Arrangement—Was presented by the Lord Granard (E. Granard); read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 254.)
TELEPHONE TRANSFER AMENDMENT BILL.
Brought from the Commons endorsed with the Certificate from the Speaker that the Bill is a Money Bill within the meaning of the Parliament Act, 1911.
MARITIME CONVENTIONS BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
SMALL LANDHOLDERS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

NAVAL DISCIPLINE (DOMINION NAVAL FORCES) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (EARL CARRINGTON): I ask your Lordships to be good enough to give a Second Reading to
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the Naval Discipline (Dominion Naval Forces) Bill. This Bill gives effect to an agreement that was come to at the Imperial Conference that the ships and fleets of the Royal Navy and the ships of the Dominions when co-operating together shall be treated as belonging to the same service so far as discipline is concerned. The effect of the Bill will be to place the Naval Forces of the Dominions in the same position in relation to British Naval Forces and to each other as if both were an integral part of the Imperial Naval Forces. This Bill was read without any comment and with very general satisfaction in another place, and therefore it is with great confidence that I ask your Lordships to be good enough to give this Bill a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Carrington.)
VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: My Lords, having had this question under my consideration some years ago I may, perhaps, be allowed to say a few words in support of this Bill, brought in so appropriately by one who was himself the popular Governor of the then Colony of New South Wales. I should like, however, to ask whether the actual Bill has been laid before the Dominion Governments. It may have been thought unnecessary to do so because, as I understand, it carries out the exact provisions agreed to at the Imperial Conference. Does the noble Earl know whether this Bill itself has been laid before the Dominion Governments?
EARL CARRINGTON: I believe not.
VISCOUNT KNUTSFORD: If it had been laid before the Dominion Governments and received their approval it would assuredly have all the more received our assent. But whether that is so or not, no one can doubt the extreme value of this Bill, not only in itself as providing for the discipline of the Dominion Naval Forces, but also because it meets the views of the different Dominion Governments represented at the Conference. Therefore I hope that your Lordships will not only not hesitate to give it a Second Reading but will agree to pass it through all its stages to-day.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

FINANCE BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT MORLEY): My Lords, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill I think, perhaps, it may be expected that I should say a single word upon the fact that it is not a Money Bill. By the j Parliament Act which we passed this year it is provided in the third subsection of the first clause—the language is very familiar to us all—that "there shall be endorsed on every Money Bill when it is sent up to the House of Lords a certificate of the Speaker of the House of Commons, signed by him, that it is a Money Bill." The Finance Bill in the present instance is not so endorsed by the Speaker, and therefore it does not come within the class of Money Bills. It comes before your Lordships like any other Bill. It is not for me—and it would be highly improper if I were to attempt it—to conjecture what parts of the Bill have moved the Speaker to withhold his certificate that it is a Money Bill. There, are about five clauses in the Bill—Clauses 4, 6, 7, and, I think, Clauses 13 and 18—which deal with matters that possibly might be construed, and possibly the Speaker has so construed them, as going beyond a mere money provision. Of course, we cannot go behind the fact that the Bill has not got this needed endorsement. I do not think I need go further in moving the Second Reading of the Bill.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Morley.)
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, and passed.

NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, there are a few small Amendments as the result of last night's consideration that I have to move. They are none of them of any importance, but they are improvements. At the end of Clause 12 I propose to insert this as a new subsection, "Where
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a person who is entitled to any benefit under this part of this Act, or a woman whose husband is entitled to maternity benefit in respect of her confinement, applies for admission to any workhouse infirmary, admission thereto shall not be refused on the ground only of the right of such benefit." That is a just and merciful provision.
Amendment moved—
Clause 12, page 15, line 3, at end insert as a new subsection:
("(3) Where a person who is entitled to any benefit under this part of this Act, or a woman whose husband is entitled to maternity benefit in respect of her confinement, applies for admission to any workhouse infirmary, admission thereto shall not be refused on the ground only of the right of such benefit").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Clause 14, page 18, line 19, leave out ("emoluments") and insert ("remuneration").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Clause 66, page 81, line 8, after ("is") insert ("or will be").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Clause 83, page 104, line 34, leave out ("such") and insert ("of those").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): I have an Amendment which I should like to insert in Clause 87. It is after "benefit or," in subsection (4), to insert "disablement." Your Lordships will sec that, there was a new subsection put in last night in order to prevent anybody receiving the unemployment benefit at the same time as he got a sickness or a disablement benefit or allowance. There is some little difficulty with regard to the word "allowance," which might be held by some people to include such things as maternity benefit and so on, and with your Lordships' permission I should like to insert before "allowance" the word "disablement."
Amendment moved—
Clause 87, page 108, line 8, after ("or") insert ("disablement").—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I move leave out the whole of Clause 109—
109. Where a person who, or whose husband, is entitled to maternity benefit, applies for admission to a maternity ward at any workhouse infirmary, admission thereto shall not be refused on the ground only of the right to such benefit.
The reason is that we have already inserted it elsewhere.
Amendment moved—
Clause 109, page 124, leave out the whole clause.—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended) Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

SHOPS BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That this House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Hours of employment and meal times.
1.—(1) On at least one week day in each week a shop assistant shall not be employed about the business of a shop after half-past one o'clock in the afternoon.
Provided that—

(a) this provision shall not apply to the week preceding a bank or public holiday or any day of public rejoicing or mourning if the shop assistant is not employed on that day and if on one week day in the following week in addition to that day the employment of the shop assistant ceases not later than half-past one o'clock in the afternoon; and

(b) in any place where the local authority has suspended the obligation to close shops on the weekly half-holiday and where it is the practice in any shop to allow all shop assistants employed therein a holiday on full pay of not less than two weeks in every year, and the occupier of the shop has given notice to the local authority of such practice, this provision shall not apply during such parts of the year, not exceeding in the aggregate four months, as may be allowed by the local authority and specified in a notice affixed in the shop.

(2) Intervals for meals shall be allowed to each shop assistant in accordance with the First Schedule to this Act.
(3) The occupier of a shop shall fix, and shall specify in a notice in the prescribed form, which must be affixed in the shop in such manner and at such time as may be prescribed, the day of the week on which his shop assistants are not employed after half-past one o'clock, and may fix different days for different shop assistants.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: These Amendments in Clause I are merely verbal. It is found more convenient to define the word "holiday."
Amendments moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 10, leave out ("or public")
Clause 1, page 1, lines 10 and 11, leave out ("or any day of public rejoicing or mourning")
Clause 1, page 1, line 12, leave out ("that day") and insert ("the bank holiday")
Clause 1, page 1, line 13, leave out ("that day") and insert ("the bank holiday")
Clause 1, page 1, line 15, leave out from ("afternoon") to the end of the subsection.—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2:
Closing of shops on weekly half-holiday.
2.—(1) Every shop shall, save as otherwise provided by this Act, be closed for the serving of customers not later than one o'clock in the afternoon on one week day in every week.
(2) The local authority may, by order, fix the day on which a shop is to be so closed (in this Act referred to as the weekly half-holiday), and any such order may either fix the same day for all shops, or may fix—

(a) different days for different classes of shops; or

(b) different days for different parts of the district; or

(c) different days for different periods of the year:

Provided that—

(1) where the day fixed is a day other than Saturday, the order shall provide for enabling Saturday to be substituted for such other day; and

(2) where the day fixed is Saturday, the order shall provide for enabling some other day specified in the order to be substituted for Saturday,

as respects any shop in which notice to that effect is affixed by the occupier, and that no such order shall be made unless the local authority after making such inquiry as may be prescribed are satisfied that the occupiers of a majority of each of the several classes of shops affected by the order approve the order, and any such order may be revoked in like manner and subject to the like approval.
(3) Unless and until such an order is made affecting a shop, tins weekly half-holiday as respects the shop shall lie such day as the occupier may specify in a, notice affixed in the shop, but it shall not be lawful for the occupier of the shop to change the day oftener than once in any period of three months.
(4) Where the local authority have reason to believe that a majority of the occupiers of shops of any particular class in any area are in favour of being exempted from the provisions of this section, either wholly or by fixing as the closing hour instead of one o'clock some other hour not later than two o'clock, the local authority, unless they consider that the area in question is un reasonably small, shall take, steps to ascertain the wishes of such occupiers, find if they are satisfied that a majority of the occupiers of such shops are in favour of the exemption, or in the case of a vote being taken that at least one half of the votes recorded by the occupiers of shops within the area of the class in question are in favour of the exemption, the local authority shall make an order exempting the shops of that class within the area from the provisions of this section either wholly or to such extent as aforesaid.
(5) In places frequented as holiday resorts during certain seasons of the year, the local authority may by order suspend for such period or periods as may be specified in the order, not exceeding in the aggregate four mouths in any year, the obligation imposed by this section.
(6) Where a shop is closed during the whole day on the occasion of a bank or public holiday, or any day of public rejoicing or mourning, and that day is not the day fixed for the weekly half-holiday, it shall be lawful for the occupier of the shop to keep the shop open for the serving of customers after the hour at which it is required under this section to be closed either on the half-holiday immediately preceding or on the half-holiday immediately succeeding such bank or public holiday or day of public rejoicing or mourning.
(7) This section shall not apply to any shop in which a trade or business of any class mentioned in the Second Schedule to this Act is carried on, but the local authority may, by order made and revocable in like manner as closing orders, extend the provisions of this section to shops of any class exempted under this provision if satisfied that the occupiers of at least two thirds of the shops of that class approve the order.
(8) The power under the Shop Hours Act, 1904, to fix a closing hour earlier than seven o'clock, shall cease to have effect, and any closing order which is in force at the commencement of this Act shall cease to have effect in so far as it fixes an hour earlier than seven o'clock for any shop to which this section applies.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I move to delete from the end of subsection (2) the words "and any such order may be revoked in like manner and subject to the like approval." This is merely drafting. It is proposed to add a new clause providing for the revocation of orders generally.
Amendment moved—
Clause 2, page 2, line 29, leave out from the first ("order") to the end of the subsection.—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: The other Amendments to this clause are purely drafting.
Amendments moved—
Clause 2, page 3, lines 12 to 10, leave out subsection (5).
Clause 2, page 3, line 18, leave out from ("bank") to ("and") in line 10, and insert ("holiday")
Clause 2, page 3, line 24, leave out from ("succeeding") to the end of subsection (6) and insert ("the bank holiday").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledger.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3:
Amendment moved—
Clause 3, page 4, line 23, leave out ("as").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4:
Amendment moved—
Clause 4, page 4, lines 31 and 32, leave out ("on any day or").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5:
Provisions as respects shops where more than one, business is carried on.
5.—(1) Where several trades or businesses are carried on in the same shop, and any of those trades or businesses is of such a nature that, if it were the only trade or business carried on in the shop, the shop would be exempt from the obligation to be closed on the weekly half-holiday, the exemption shall apply to the shop so far as the carrying on of that trade or business is concerned, subject, however, to such conditions as may be prescribed.
(2) Where several trades or businesses are carried on in the same shop, no such trade or business shall, for the purpose of determining a majority under the Shops Regulation Acts, 1892 to 1911. be considered as carried on in the shop unless the occupier of the shop satisfies the local authority that such trade or business forms a substantial part of the business carried on in the shop.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS*LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS moved to omit from subsection (2) the words "no such trade or business," and to insert the words in his Amendment. The noble Lord said: The two Amendments standing in my name to this clause are to meet a point raised on Report, in another place. Hon. Members there were anxious to make sure that small shopkeepers should not be excluded from a vote, and these Amendments are to provide that each shopkeeper shall have a vote.
Amendment moved—
Clause 5, page 5, line 14, leave out ("no such trade or business") and insert ("the local authority may require the occupier of the shop to specify which trade or business he considers to be his principal trade or business, and no trade or business other than that so specified").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Clause 5, page 5, lines 17 and 18, leave out ("such trade or business") and insert ("it").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I want to insert, after Clause 5, a new clause to give effect to a drafting Amendment that your Lordships have already agreed to. It is an amalgamation clause to give greater facility in the working of the Act.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 5 insert, as a new clause:
(".—(1) In places frequented as holiday resorts during certain seasons of the year the local authority may by order suspend, for such period or periods as may be specified in the order, not exceeding in the aggregate four months in any year, the obligation imposed by this Act to (lose shops on the weekly half-holiday.
"(2) Where the occupier of any shop to which any such order of suspension applies satisfies the local authority that it is the practice to allow all his shop assistants a holiday on full pay of not less than two weeks in every year, and keeps affixed in his shop a notice to that effect, the requirement that on one day in each week a shop assistant shall not be employed after half-past one o'clock shall not apply to the shop during such period or periods as aforesaid").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6:
Powers and duties of local authorities.
6.—(1) It shall be the duly of every local authority to enforce within their district the provisions of the Shops Regulation Acts, 1892 to 1911, and of the orders made thereunder, and for that purpose to institute and carry on such proceedings in respect of failures to comply with or contraventions of those Acts and the orders made thereunder as may be necessary to secure the observance thereof, and to appoint inspectors; and an inspector so appointed shall, for the purposes of his powers and duties, have in relation to shops all the powers conferred in relation to factories and workshops on inspectors by section one hundred and nineteen of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, and that section and section ore hundred and twenty-one of the same Act shall apply accordingly; and an inspector may, if so authorised by the local authority, institute and carry on any proceedings under this Act on behalf of the authority.
(2) A local authority for the purposes of this Act and of the Shop Hours Act, 1892, shall be the same as a local authority for the purposes of the Shop Hours Act, 1904, and the expenses of all local authorities under the Shops Regulation Acts, 1802 to 1911, shall be defrayed iii like manner as expenses of local authorities under the Shop Hours Act, 1904, are defrayed: provided that for the purposes of all the said Acts the local authority in London outside the City shall be the London County Council.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I move to leave out the present subsection (2) and to insert two new subsections. This Amendment sets out at length the authorities now referred to in subsection (2). It introduces no fresh matter.
Amendment moved—
Clause 6, page 5, line 35, to page 6, line 3, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
("(2) In this Act the expression "local authority" means—

"as respects the city of London, the common council;

"as respects any municipal borough, the council of the borough;

"as respects any urban district with a population according to the returns of the last published census for the time being of twenty thousand or upwards, the district council;

"elsewhere, the county council:

"and the sumo local authorities shall be the local authorities for the purposes of the Shop Hours Act. 1904, and shall, in so far as they differ from the local authorities specified in that Act, be substituted for those local authorities:
"Provided that a county council may with the approval of the Secretary of State, make arrangements with the council of an urban district in the county with a population of less than twenty thousand, or with the council of a rural district, for the exercise by the council of that district as agents for the county council on such terms and subject to such conditions as may be agreed on of any powers of the county council under the Shops Regulation Acts, 1892 to 1911, within the district, and the council of the district may as part of the agreement undertake to pay the whole or any

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part of the expenses incurred in connection with the exercise of the powers delegated to them, and the London County Council may, with the like approval make similar arrangements with the council of any metropolitan borough.
"(3) The expenses of a local authority under the Shop." Regulation Acts, 1892 to 1911 (including any expenses which a council undertake to pay as aforesaid), shall, save, as otherwise expressly provided by this Act, be defrayed—

"in the case of the common Council of the city of London, out of the general rate;

"in the case of the council of a borough, out of the borough fund or borough rate;

"in the case of a district council as part of the general expenses incurred in the execution of the Public Health Acts;

"in the case of a county council, as expenses for special county purposes;

"in the case of a metropolitan borough council, as part of the expenses of the council").—(Lord Ashby St. ledgers.)

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I have an Amendment on the Paper the object of which is to make the metropolitan borough councils the authority for certain purposes under this Act, and although I do not wish to inconvenience your Lordships by a Division, yet I should be grateful to the noble Lord if he could see his way to allow my Amendment to form part of the Bill. Under the previous Shop Acts the metropolitan borough councils had certain powers of closing, and the noble Duke on the Front Bench below me (the Duke of Devonshire) last night explained the reasons why it was desirable that the metropolitan borough councils should retain these powers. I think that for the purposes of closing the borough councils are very much better authorities to be entrusted with this than the London County Council; they understand the local conditions better. The noble Lord in charge of the Bill last night described the difficulty of boundaries, and said that on one side of the street you might have one set of regulations and on the cither side another set if you gave the administration of the Act to the borough councils. But I do not think the conditions would be likely to be so dissimilar that different regulations would prevail. Supposing two borough councils have jurisdiction in the same street and the conditions of the whole area are much the same, these two borough councils would have the same set of conditions prevailing, and on that point I think there is very little to be said. I hope the noble Lord will see his way to accept my Amendment when we reach it. It would still leave the county council's power of inspection untouched.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I should very much deprecate it if the noble Earl who has just sat down were to insist upon his Amendment. This is an agreed Bill, and this clause is an agreed clause. There has been a rather unfortunate incident, to which the noble Duke referred last night, in the fact that the proviso which gives effect to this intention did not appear upon the White Paper when it was before the House of Commons on the Report stage, but I am grateful to the noble Duke for admitting last night that that was nothing but an inadvertence, and really nobody who was at all interested in the Bill could have been misled thereby. This question was discussed by a Committee of the House of Commons upstairs, and the decision to make the London County Council the authority for London was, after discussion, curried without a division. It was an agreement reached in Committee. I think nearly two months of Parliamentary time elapsed between the Committee stage and the Report stage, and no Amendment appeared on the Paper and no attempt was made in the House of Commons to reverse that decision, and when the question was put in another place from the Chair no division was challenged. Therefore, my Lords, I do submit that this is an agreed clause, and one representing on the whole the considered opinion of both Parties, and I think it would be extremely unfortunate if your Lordships at this late stage of the session were to attempt to reverse that decision. You will, of course, be aware that under the Amendment which I have moved, and which is now before the House, the county council may, with the approval of the Secretary of State, make arrangements with councils of urban districts, and so on, including the metropolitan boroughs, to delegate its powers. Consequently it cannot be said that this is an inelastic provision. If it is found, as the noble Earl contends, that there are places where the borough council can administer the Act as efficiently as the county council, then it is open to the county council to enter into an arrangement forthwith to that effect. I do not myself think that the noble Earl was very convincing when he said that as far as closing orders were concerned the borough council would generally, if not always, be the better authority. As he has taken an interest in the question of early closing he will know, and I am sure he will deplore, the slow advance which

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has been made in London in the direction of early closing. It is a most unfortunate thing that, although in many districts there is a general consensus of opinion amongst shopkeepers as to the desirability of applying for an order, very often owing to small hitches and local jealousies the parties cannot come together, and the closing order is not brought into existence. It is with a view of facilitating the early closing movement, a movement which commands the support of your Lordships' House generally, that this policy of making the county council the authority has been introduced, and I hope that, in view of that fact, the noble Earl will not press the Amendment which stands in his name.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I have nothing to add to what I said last night. It is quite impossible for us to accept this as an agreed Bill. If anything was agreed, it was the Bill as printed on the White Paper. That Bill so printed, as the noble Lord himself says, was on the Table of the House for two months.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: No, no; I said that two months elapsed between the Committee stage and the Report stage. The Bill as it left Committee before it was reduced in scale on the Report stage did contain this provision. If the noble Duke will look at the original Bill as it left Committee he will see that.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Is that Clause 19?
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: Yes, Clause 19, subsection (3). I think there can be no mistake about that. It was agreed in Committee, and two months elapsed between that stage and its being introduced in that short form on the Report stage.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: It is clear that it was thought that the borough councils would be the authority. However, the matter is in the hands of the Government, and it is impossible to redress it; and after what passed last night I should advise my noble friend Lord Malmesbury not to press his Amendment on the Paper.
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: I will not put your Lordships to the trouble of a Division, but I cannot admit for a moment that this clause was an agreed clause in any sense of the word.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: The Amendment before the House is: Clause 6, page 5, line 35, to leave out subsection (2) and to insert the new subsections moved by Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 7:
Delegation of powers of county councils.
7.—(1) A county council may, with the approval of the Secretary of State, make arrangements with the council of an urban district in the county, with a population of less than twenty thousand, for the exercise by the council of that district, as agents for the county council, on such terms and subject to such conditions as may be agreed on, of any powers of the county council under the Shops Regulation Acts, 1892 to 1911, within the district, and the council of the district may as part of the agreement undertake to pay the whole or any part of the expenses incurred in connexion with the exercise of the powers delegated to them.
(2) The London County Council may, with the like approval, make similar arrangements with the council of any metropolitan borough, and if any such arrangement is made, any expenses which the metropolitan borough council undertake to pay shall be defrayed as part of the expenses of that council.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: I understand that the noble Earl, Lord Malmesbury, does not move his Amendment to this clause?
THE EARL OF MALMESBURY: No.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS*LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS moved to leave out Clause 7.
Amendment moved—
Clause 7, page 6, leave out clause 7.—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8 agreed to.
Clause 9:
Proof of closing orders.
9. Any order made by a local authority under the Shops Regulation Acts, 1892 to 1911, may be proved by the production of a copy thereof certified to be a true copy by a person purporting to be the clerk of the local authority by whom the order was made.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: The additional subsection which I move to Clause 9 is merely to supply an omission.
Amendment moved—
Clause 9, page 7, line 30, after ("made") insert—
("(2) Any order made by a local authority under this Act may, unless otherwise provided by this Act, be revoked by an order made in the like manner and subject to the like approval as the original order").—(Lord Ashby St. ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 10 agreed to.
Clause 11:
Supply of necessaries to ships.
11. Nothing in this Act shall prevent customers from being served at a time when the shop in which they are sold is required to be closed with victuals, stores, or other necessaries for a ship, on her arrival at or before her departure from a port.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: This clause deals with the provisioning of ships coming into ports on days when there is a closing order in force, and it is an exemption in favour of the ships. It is necessary to insert the word "immediately" in front of "before her departure," in order to insure that the exemption is not abused.
Amendment moved—
Clause 11, page 8, line 23, after ("or") insert ("immediately").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 12:
Saving for fairs and bazaars.
12. Nothing in this Act shall apply to any fair lawfully held or any bazaar for charitable or other purposes from which no private profit is derived.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: This Amendment is merely to include "sale of work" as a charitable sale as well as a bazaar.
Amendment moved—
Clause 12, page 8, line 25, after ("bazaar") insert ("or sale of work").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.
LOKD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I have a new clause to introduce here. I may say that a promise was given in Committee in another place that the exemption of one member of the employer's family, provided for in the definition of shop assistant, should not apply as far as the weekly half-holiday was concerned, but should apply as to the interval for meals. By this new clause this object is effected. It is a very small point.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 12 insert as a new clause:
(".—(1) Section ten of the Shop Hours Act, 1892, which provides for the exemption of members of the occupier's family and domestic servants from the provisions of that Act, shall cease to have effect except so far as it relates to persons wholly employed as domestic servants.
"(2) The provisions of this Act with respect to the allowance of intervals for meals shall not apply to a shop if the only persons employed as shop assistants are members of the family of the occupier of the shop maintained by him and dwelling in his house").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13:
Interpretation.
13. In this Act—
The expression "shop" includes any premises where any retail trade or business is carried on;
The expression "retail trade or business" includes the business of a barber or hairdresser, the sale of refreshments or intoxicating liquors, and retail sales by auction, but does not include the sale of programmes and catalogues and other similar sales at theatres and places of amusement;
The expression "shop assistant" means any person wholly or mainly employed in a shop in connexion with the serving of customers or the receipt of orders or the despatch of goods, but shall not include a person so employed if he is the only person regularly employed in the shop and is a member of the family of the occupier of the shop, maintained by him, and dwelling in his house.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I move to leave out the words "but shall not include a person so employed if he is the only person regularly employed in the shop and is a member of the family of the occupier of the shop, maintained by him, and dwelling in his house." It is not necessary to insert these words here, because they are in the new clause to which your Lordships have just agreed. The words I propose to insert are merely a matter of definition.
Amendment moved—
Clause 13, page 8, line 39, leave out from ("goods") to the end of the clause, and insert:
("The expression "bank holiday" includes any public holiday or day of rejoicing or mourning.
"The expression "prescribed" means prescribed by regulations made under the Shop Hours Act, 1904.
"The expression "closing order" mean a closing order under the Shop Hours Act, 1904").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14:
Application to Scotland.
14. This Act shall apply to Scotland, subject to the following modification:—
The Secretary for Scotland shall be substituted for the Secretary of State.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: To Clause 14 I wish to add a few lines to make the Act applicable to Scotland.
Amendment moved—
Clause 14, page 9, line 8, after ("State") insert ("The local authority for the purposes of the Shops Regulation Acts, 1892 to 1911, shall be the county council in a county (exclusive of the police burghs therein) and the town council in a ro37al, parliamentary, or police burgh; and the expenses of a local authority under the said Acts shall be defrayed, in the case of a county council, out of the general purposes rate, and in the case of a town council, out of the burgh general improvement assessment, or any other assessment leviable by the town council in equal proportions on owners and occupiers: Provided that the ratepayers of a police burgh shall not be assessed by the county council for any such expenses").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 14, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 15:
Application to Ireland.
15. This Act shall apply to Ireland subject to the following modifications:—
(1) The Lord Lieutenant shall be substituted for the Secretary of State:
(2) This Act shall not extend to any rural district or part of a rural district
(3) In the case of a shop assistant employed in a shop in which the business of the sale by retail of intoxicating liquors for consumption on or off the premises, or for consumption off the premises only,
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is carried on, subsections (1) and (2) of section one of this Act shall not apply, but, instead thereof, the following provisions shall have effect:—

(a) The assistant shall not, save as otherwise provided by this Act, be employed about the business of such shop for more than seventy-two hours (exclusive of meal hours) in any week;

(b) Intervals for meals shall be allowed to each assistant, amounting to not less than two hours on each day;

(c) The assistant shall, subject as herein-after mentioned, be allowed on one week-day in each week a holiday of not less than seven, hours (in this subsection referred to as a weekly half-holiday).

Unless the employer and the shop assistant otherwise agree the weekly half-holiday shall commence either at the time at which the shop opens on that day (in this subsection referred to as "a morning half-holiday"), or at a time not less than seven hours before the time at which the shop closes on that day (in this subsection referred to as "an afternoon half-holiday"), and the aforesaid half-holidays shall be so arranged that the assistant shall be allowed a morning half-holiday and an afternoon half-holiday alternately;

(d) An assistant who has been employed by the same employer for a period of not less than twenty-six consecutive weeks about the business of one or more shops of the employer shall, so long as he continues in the employment of that employer, be allowed an annual holiday of at least seven consecutive days, or, if he has been employed as aforesaid for a period of not less than fifty-two consecutive weeks, an annual holiday of at least fourteen consecutive days;

(e) In any week in which an assistant is absent from his employment in or about the business of the shop, either on his annual holiday or on account of ill-health or otherwise, the weekly half-holiday may be disallowed in the case of every other assistant employed in or about the business of the shop and the number of hours of weekly employment of every such other assistant may be increased by seven hours accordingly: Provided that where the assistant is absent for more than four consecutive weeks on account of ill-health the weekly half-holiday of the other assistants shall not be disallowed and their hours of employment shall not be increased by reason of such absence except in the first four weeks in which he is absent;

(f) No deductions from wages or salary payable to the assistant shall be made on account of any such holidays or half-holidays as aforesaid:

(4) The business of the sale by retail of intoxicating liquors fur consumption off the premises only shall be deemed to be included amongst the trades and businesses specified in Part. I of the (Second Schedule and amongst the trades and businesses exempted from the provisions of this Act (other than the provisions of this section) with respect to a weekly half-holiday:
(5) A local authority may, in addition to its other powers under this Act make an order fixing (he hours on the several week-days before which, either throughout the area of the local authority or in any specified part thereof, no shop in which the business of the sale of intoxicating liquors for consumption on or oft or for consumption off the premises only is carried on shall be open for serving customers: Provided that nothing in this Act and no order made thereunder shall affect the powers or provisions contained in section eleven of the Act 37 & 38 Vict, c. 69 in respect of the granting and withdrawing of exemption orders in respect of premises in the vicinity of markets or fairs:
Such order shall be deemed to be a closing order, and all the provisions of this Act with respect to closing orders, save those relating to the earliest hours to be fixed by a closing order, shall apply accordingly with the, necessary modifications:
(6) Shops in which there is carried on the business" of the sale by retail of intoxicating liquors for consumption on or off the premises, whether such business is carried on alone or in conjunction with any other business or trade, shall, for the purposes of the provisions of this Act with respect to closing orders, be deemed to be shops of a separate class, and a local authority shall not make a closing order applying to shops of that class unless they are satisfied that the occupiers of at least two thirds in number of the shops of that class approve the order, or in the case of a vote being taken, that at least two thirds of the votes recorded by the occupiers of shops of that class are in favour of the order:
(7) Shops in which there is carried on the business of the sale by retail of intoxicating liquors for consumption off the premises only, whether such business is carried on alone or in conjunction with any other business or trade, shall in like manner and for the purposes aforesaid be deemed to be shops of a separate class, and the provisions of the last preceding subsection with respect to the making of closing orders shall apply to that class of shops as a separate class accordingly.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I move after subsection (1), to insert two new subsections, They are consequential and merely for the sake of uniformity in the application of the Act to Ireland.
Amendment moved —
Clause 15, page 9, line 12, after ("State") insert as new subsections:
"(2) A local authority for the purposes of this Act means as respects any municipal borough the borough council, and as respects any urban district the district council, and those authorities shall, as respects their several areas, be the local authorities for the purposes of the Shop Hours Act, 1904.
(3) The expenses of such local authorities shall be defrayed in the case of a municipal borough out of the borough fund or borough rate, and in the case of a district council as part of the general expenses incurred in the execution of the Public Health (Ireland) Acts, 1878 to 1907").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: This Bill does not apply to rural districts in Ireland, and the object of this Amendment is that there should be given these powers to local authorities in these districts under the existing Shops Acts.
Amendment moved—
Clause 15, page 9, line 14, after ("district") insert ("and nothing in this Act shall affect the powers or duties under the Shops Regulation Act, 1892 to 1904, of the commissioners of any town or township not being an urban district").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
THE EARL OF MEATH: My Lords, hitherto I have been merely listening to all that has been going on, but now we come to Ireland I have to say that I wish His Majesty's Government would not so often alter their own Bills. It appears to me that they are always altering their Bills, and we are given about two seconds to understand what the alterations are.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: On that point I may say that this is really the result of the compression which took place in the Bill in another place. In consequence of that it was found necessary to make some variations in the case of Ireland, based upon an agreement, between the members of the trade in Ireland and their employers. That accounts for the rather short time which your Lordships have had to consider these Amendments. It is, I am afraid, the result of the period of the session in which we are now.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: The next two are drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Clause 15, page 9, line 17, leave out from ("liquors") to ("is") in line 18
Clause 15, page 9, lines 18 and 10, leave out ("subsections (1) and (2) of").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I move to insert "week" before "day" at the end of paragraph (b) of subsection (3). This Amendment confines the provision with regard to intervals for meals to week days in Ireland. On Sundays pubic houses are only allowed to he open for three hours and it is not thought necessary to apply it on Sundays.
Amendment moved—
Clause 15, page 9, line 28, after ("each") insert ("week").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: These subsections deal with the notice which it is prescribed that the shopkeeper should put up in his shop, and they also provide for overtime. The overtime is not to exceed ninety hours in any one year.
Amendment moved—
Clause 15, page 9, line 28, after ("each") insert ("week") and after ("day") insert:
("(c) The occupier of the shop shall fix within the limit aforesaid, and shall, specify in a notice in the prescribed form affixed in the shop, the times at which tin; employment or the several spells of employment, as the case, may be, of the assistant are to commence and end on the several days of the week, and the assistant shall not be employed about the business of the shop, except within the time so fixed.
"(d) The assistant may be employed overtime for not more than ninety hours in the calendar year, and such employment shall not be reckoned as employment for the purposes of the foregoing limitation of the hours of employment.
"Provided that during the first two months after the assistant has entered the employment the amount of overtime worked by him shall not exceed the proportion of two hours for every week he has been in the employment or is entitled under a contract to continue in the employment.
"(e) The assistant shall be deemed to be employed overtime if he is employed before the time fixed by the notice for the commencement or after the time so fixed for the ending of his employment or during the interval so fixed between two spells of employ-
1156
ment, and overtime shall be reckoned in periods of half an hour, and any period of overtime of less than half an hour shall be reckoned as a complete half hour; and the occupier of the shop when he intends to employ the assistant overtime on any day shall, before the overtime employment commences, record the prescribed particulars with respect to that employment in the prescribed manner").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: Subsection (4) is no longer necessary owing To the alterations which we have made in the Bill. I move to omit it and to insert a new subsection.
Amendments moved—
Clause 15, page 10, lines 31 to 37, leave out ("subsection (4)") and insert:
("(4) Any shop in which the trade or business of the sale by retail of intoxicating liquors is carried on in conjunction with any other trade or business, shall, as respects all such trades or businesses, be exempt from the obligation to be closed on the weekly half holiday").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: The next three Amendments are drafting.
Amendment moved—
Clause 15, page 10, line 39, leave out ("this Act") and insert ("the Shops Regulation Acts, 1892 to 1911")
Clause 15, page 10, page 11, line 3, leave out from ("customers") to the end of line 8.
Clause 15, page 10, line 10, leave out ("this Act") and insert ("the Shop Hours Act, 1904").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: This Amendment is merely to enable licensed premises to open at an early hour for the purpose of fairs and markets. If it were not for this provision it might be, found that it would be impossible for the licensing authorities to grant an extension of hours for fairs, and so on.
Amendment moved—
Clause 15, page 11, line 13, after ("modifications") insert ("Provided that an order made under this subsection shall not in any way affect the powers conferred by section eleven of the Licensing (Ireland) Act. 1874, of granting exemption orders in respect of licensed premises, or apply to any licensed premises during any time during which the premises are permitted to be open under any such exemption order").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
LORD ASHBOURNE: Were these Amendments relating to Ireland discussed in the House of Commons, or did the Irish Members preserve a dignified and haughty silence?
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: No they were discussed, but they were not all discussed before the House. They will go there now.
LORD ASHBOURNE: Were they practically not dissented from by Irish Members in any part of the House?
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: They were agreed.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: The other two Amendments on this clause are merely drafting.
Amendment moved—
Clause 15, page 11, lines 18 and 10, leave out ("this Act,") and insert ("the Shop Hours Act, 1904")
Clause 15, page 11, line 24, leave out from ("order") to end of subsection.—(Lord Ashby St. Ledger.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 16:
Short title and commencement.
16.—(1) This Act may be cited as the Shops Act, 1911, and the Shops Regulation Acts, 1892 to 1904, shall be construed as one with this Act, and may be cited with this Act as the Shops Regulation Acts, 1892 to 1911.
(2) This Act shall conic into operation on the first day of May nineteen hundred and twelve.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I move the insertion of a new subsection, which is necessary as the result of setting out the local authorities m full in the clause we have passed.
Amendment moved—
Clause 16, page 11, line 41, after ("twelve") insert as a new subsection:
("(3) The enactments specified in the Third Schedule to this Act are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that schedule except so far as they relate to rural districts in Ireland, and to local authorities in those districts").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16, as amended, agreed to.
First Schedule:
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: These four Amendments are rendered necessary by the fact that the interval for lea has been extended from twenty minutes to half an hour, whether cm the premises or off the premises.
Amendments moved—
First Schedule, page 12, line 15, leave out ("intervals") and insert ("interval") and leave out ("and tea")
First Schedule, page 12, lines 15 and 16 leave out ("and half-an-hour respectively")
First Schedule, page 12, line 16, leave out ("the meals are") and insert ("that meal is").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
First Schedule, as amendment agreed to.
Second Schedule:
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: The object of these two Amendments is to include a show, and to make sure that u show like the Lincoln Stock Show should be included.
Amendment moved—
Second Schedule, page 13, line 7, after ("exhibition") insert ("or show")
Second Schedule, page 13, line 9, after ("exhibition") insert ("or show").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Second Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I move that a Third Schedule be added. It is merely a consequential repeal of certain enactments.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 9, after ("exhibition") insert:

THIRD SCHEDULE.

Session and Chapter.

Short title.

Extent of Repeal.

55 & 56 Vict. c. 62.

The Shop Hours Act, 1892.

Section eight.

56 & 57 Vict. c. 67.

The Shop Hours Act, 1893.

The whole Act.

4 Edw. 7 c. 31

The Shop Hours Act, 1904.

Subsection (2) of section eight; section nine.

—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, before we advance further with this Bill I desire, at the risk of reiteration, to protest once more against the manner in which this House is called upon to deal with important legislation in the expiring hours of the session. This morning we have been asked to deal with Amendments covering seven pages of paper, Amendments which I believe were only placed in our hands to-day; and not only have we been asked to deal with those Amendments, but with other Amendments not on the Paper which the noble Lord in charge of the Bill produced.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: I think it was only one.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Then one certainly.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: There was one new clause put, but as a matter of fact it was down on the Paper, but in a later place.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I accept the explanation, but it is quite impossible for us to deal intelligently with the matters brought before us under such circumstances. The noble Lord himself, if he will forgive me saying so, in spite of the great presence of mind that he showed in handling his Bill, on two or three points evidently was not thoroughly master of the subject. Now what was the noble Lord's justification? It was that at the most his Amendments, he told us, were drafting or consequential Amendments. I do not for one moment question his bona fides, but still there is a limit to the amount of absolute discretion that we can afford to allow to noble Lords in charge of Government Bills. Another defence given by the noble Lord was that some of these things were matter of agreement, and that promises had been made in the House of Commons. I have no doubt that may be so. But that does not in the least, or it ought not in the least, to deprive us of our opportunity of considering the manner in which effect has been given to such agreements. Besides that, most of us have received suggestions from different quarters as to the Bill, and from influential quarters, which we should have been glad to have had time to consider. The noble Lord suggested that a great
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deal of our trouble was due to what he called the compression of the Bill. May I suggest to him that the trouble is due not to the compression of the Bill, but to the compression of the opportunities given to this House, which is quite another matter. I know that this Bill is desired by both sides, and I should be sorry to oppose its further progress; but I think noble Lords opposite must really realise that this kind of thing, particularly under the new dispensation to which we are to be subject for the future, ought not to be allowed to continue, and F hope that in another session we shall address ourselves seriously to the task of making some arrangements under which this House will be relieved from the necessity of hurrying, with the kind of indecent haste which has been exhibited this morning, through the provisions of important measures.
VISOUNT MORLEY: I do not at all complain of the noble Marquess for making the observations to which we have just listened, and I do not doubt that if this time next year I have the honour of sitting where the noble Marquess sits, and he sits on this Bench, I shall make a speech probably very similar to the one that he has now made. I thoroughly agree with the noble Marquess that it is deplorable that this House, which still by law has the power of revising Bills, should suffer from what the noble Marquess called compression of opportunities for debate. But the Shops Bill does not, I think, afford a very good opportunity for taking up that position and using that line of argument. It is an agreed Bill. The Bill was cut down in order that it might have the undivided support of both Parties in the House of Commons, and that support was given to it. I quite agree, of course, that your Lordships have really nothing to, do with the fact that the House of Commons came to this or that conclusion on the strength of this or that set of arguments. Your Lordships are responsible, and if we were in normal times that responsibility would be naturally exercised upon a Bill of this kind, which goes very deep into the social habits of an important class of the people. I agree that the House of Commons ought not to be allowed to overrule the proceedings of this House. But, circumstances being what they are, the changes that have been made this morning by the House on the motion of my noble friend behind me are not really of any signal importance. I do not think that they can be

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called important at all. They are changes that were worth making in the opinion of the Government and the Department concerned, and I do not believe if we had had the whole day to argue these Amendments it would have made any difference whatever in the ultimate conclusion. It is no use my saying more. I am as sorry as the noble Marquess that we are placed in this position. It has nothing to do, I must remind him, with the Parliament Act. It is not the Parliament Act or anything in the Parliament Act that causes this congestion of opportunity. It arises from quite different causes, from congestion of business, the causes of which lie far deeper.
Then (Standing Order Xo. XXXIX having been suspended) Amendments reported: Bill read 3a, with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

SALES FOR AGRICULTURAL PURPOSES BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to order): Amendments (privilege) made: Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Third Report from the Select Committee.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE): My Lords, I regret very much that this Report is not yet printed. It was sent to the printers on Wednesday, and in the normal course would have been here easily in two days, but your Lordships will recollect that the printers have been very hard worked during the last forty-eight hours, and doubtless for that reason the Report has not reached us.
LORD ASHBOURNE: Have the House of Lords' printers been hard at work?
THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: Extremely hard at work reprinting Bills. They have been up all night doing so. But there are no special printers for the House of Lords. They print for both Houses, and they had to reprint the Bills as amended in Committee in order that they might be in your Lordships' hands for the Report stage, which is taken sometimes within twelve hours of the ending of the Committee stage.
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But there are only four items in this Report of the House of Lords Offices Select Committee, and when I explain their nature I do not think your Lordships will have any grievance that the actual print is not out. The first paragraph merely states that the Estimates for the House of Lords for next year have been approved by the Committee. The second deals with the superannuation of a messenger, which has been put down according to scale. The third deals with the gratuity allowed to the widow of a doorkeeper who has recently died; that is according to scale. The other paragraph is concerned with the important question of the transfer of two temporary I housemaids to the permanent establishment. I move that the Report be agreed to.
On Question, Third Report from the Select Committee agreed to.

TELEPHONE TRANSFER AMENDMENT BILL.
LORD HERSCHELL: My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill, which is endorsed with the Certificate of the Speaker as a Money Bill, be read a first time.
On Question, Bill read 1a.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended),
LORD HERSCHELL LORD HERSCHELL moved that the Bill be read a second time. The noble Lord said: This is merely a Bill of a drafting nature. Under the Telephone Transfer Act, which was passed on the 18th of August last, the Treasury were authorised to provide purchase money in accordance with the purchase agreement and the award of the Railway and Canal Commission. This Bill only contains an amendment to authorise a payment on account of a sum not exceeding £3,000,000 to the company. This is in connection with the handing over of the plant, and it is most necessary that it should be passed.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a—(Lord Herschell.)
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Bill read 3a, and passed.

NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL.
LORD ASHBOURNE: As this may be the last occasion on which one can ask a question with reference to the National Insurance Bill, I take the opportunity of putting a question to the noble Earl opposite. I would like to know how many doctors it is anticipated will be required to work the Bill, and how many it is expected will be willing to work the Bill, and it there is any deficiency how it is proposed to proceed with that Part of the Bill. Another point to which I desire to ask attention is this. Many thousands of persons are affected, and I wish to know what, if any, provision will be taken to secure, that qualifications of an adequate kind will lie laid down with regard to the filling of the appointments under the Bill, and what steps will be taken to indicate to the persons who make the appointments that, they are to be guided by public and not by Party considerations—that they air lo be influenced in making the appointments by rigorous consideration of the qualifications that are needed and the character and position of the men who apply. I would also ask whether those qualifications when they are laid down will apply, not only to England, but also to Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I regret that my noble friend in charge of the Bill should not be here to answer these questions. There will be a further opportunity of interrogation, I think, fit the sitting tomorrow if the noble mid learned Lord finds my answers insufficient, and on that occasion no doubt the noble Viscount will be glad to give fuller and more detailed answers than I am able to do without notice. I may say, with regard to the first inquiry, that it is the hope of the Government that all the doctors in the country will be ready and willing to work under the Bill.
LORD ASHBOURNE: Has the noble I Earl seen the account of the proceedings at the doctors' meeting at Manchester yesterday?
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I have seen the report referred to and the statement that a certain number of doctors would be unwilling to act under the Bill. Very often resolutions of this kind are passed at gatherings of such a nature, but I am glad that they are not always acted upon afterwards. I hope, that this may be so in the present case, and that the doctors generally throughout the country, when they see the provisions which are made and the regulations that will be issued by the Insurance Commissioners, will be ready to net under the Bill. But, as I lie noble and learned Lord probably knows, the system will be that the doctors' names will be placed upon a panel, and then that each, individual may choose whatever doctor he likes from that panel.
LORD ASHBOURNE: But must not the doctors having their names on the panel be parties to it?
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I think I said that they will lie on the panel. Their names will be on the panel, and the various people will choose whichever doctor they like. We both hope and believe that there will be an amply sufficient supply of doctors on that panel for the patients to be able to secure proper medical attendance. With regard to patronage, I think that an undertaking has been given in another place with regard to the general question, of appointments under this Bill, and I can assure the noble and learned Lord in any case that what lie is afraid of is not really likely to occur. I believe, though I should not be ready to say it offhand and cannot give chapter and verse for it, that a pledge has been given that these appointments will be made under the Civil Service regulations.
LORD ASHBOURNE: Does that apply to Scotland and Ireland?
EARL BEAUCHAMP: Yes.
House adjourned at One o'clock, till To-morrow, Twelve o'clock.