Lords Sitting of 14 December 1911

Preamble
In accordance with the arrangement made on the previous day the House met at 12 o'clock. The EARL of GRANARD took the seat on the Woolsack.

SMALL LANDHOLDERS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (LORD PENTLAND): My Lords, I understand that it is not possible to go on with the business which was put down for this hour. I have heard to that effect from the noble Marquess who leads the Opposition, and I beg to move that this House do now adjourn until half-past four o'clock this afternoon, and then take the business which is now on the Order Paper.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Third Reading put off till the sitting of the House at half-past Four o'clock.
The sitting was resumed at half-past four, the LORD CHANCELLOR then taking his seat on the Woolsack.

NAVAL DISCIPLINE (DOMINION NAVAL FORCES) BILL.
Brought from the Commons.

COPYRIGHT BILL.
PUBLIC ROADS (IRELAND) BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.

SHIPPING CASUALTIES (UNCERTIFICATED OFFICERS).
Return respecting: Laid before the House (pursuant to Order of the 30th of November last), and to be printed. (No. 249.)
HOUSE LETTING AND RATING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Petition for amendment of; of the Provost, Magistrates, and Councillors of the Royal Burgh of Aberbrothock or Arbroath; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
NAVAL DISCIPLINE (DOMINION NAVAL FORCES) BILL.
Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord Privy Seal (E. Carrington)). (No. 250.)
FINANCE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow (The Lord President (V. Morley)). (No. 251.)

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT MORLEY): My Lords, I have to move that Standing Order No. XXXIX be considered in order to its being suspended for the remainder of the session.
Moved, That Standing Order No. XXXIX be suspended for the remainder of the session.—(Viscount Morley.)
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, before this Motion is put I should like to ask the noble Viscount the Leader of the House how far this is going to be put in practice. Here is a Bill, for instance, the Shop Hours Bill, which is down for Second Reading to-day. Are we to have a Committee stage on that, or is it to be put through all its stages this afternoon?
VISCOUNT MORLEY: The Committee stage will be taken to-morrow.
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 4) BILL.
Read 3a (according to order), and passed.

NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee (on Recommitment), read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Haldane.)
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: My Lords, I ask your Lordships to let me say a few words on this subject at this stage. It is proposed that the House should go into Committee on this Bill. If any of your Lordships were explaining, say, to a child or a foreigner what going into Committee meant, the answer would be that it meant to consider the Bill in its details, clause by clause, and that is actually the description of the Committee stage which is given in a popular text book on the subject. But, my Lords, it would be ludicrous, but for its element of tragedy, that the Second Chamber, which everybody says ought to be a revising Chamber, should be offered at a few hours' notice the opportunity of considering and revising the details of a Bill of 115 clauses and eight schedules, covering 140 printed pages. The importance of the matter consists largely to my mind in this, that this is a Bill, not of a formal or consolidating or uncontroversial kind in detail, however uncontroversial in principle, but a Bill which bristles with intricacies which affect every grade and class of people throughout the land and practically raises issues which must make themselves felt in almost every house.
I am anxious that it should be emphasised, because I doubt whether it has been emphasised enough, how cordially the whole House—certainly I can speak for a very large section of it—welcomes the proposal and intent of this Bill. That approval is not conventional, but heartfelt and genuine satisfaction that an endeavour should be made to deal with the grave and real evils which this Bill sets itself to combat. The cause is the very noblest which can be committed to our trust. It is to take charge of the welfare of the poorest and the neediest. That is a duty, I venture to say, which devolves especially upon those who have the privilege of a seat in this House. I do not know whether you remember the phrase in which part, at least, of such duties was defined in the Middle Ages in connection with the foremost Order of Knighthood in this country—the Order of the Garter. The Installation ceremony comprises an injunction that the object and purpose of the men thus ennobled should always be "the just and necessary defence of those who are oppressed and needy." My Lords, that is precisely what
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we want to do at this time. We want to help. What we are uncertain about is whether or not we are really by the enactment which we are requested to pass aiding in the just and necessary defence of those among us who are actually most oppressed and needy. That is the question that is before your Lordships.
So far as I can judge, this is a brave and somewhat adventurous attempt to accomplish in a few weeks and in one Bill an undertaking which might easily have occupied a great many months of inquiry, and many months of work for each separate section of it. I believe that without such time being devoted to it it is doubtful whether it will fulfil in its fulness the purpose which we, quite as much as those who have constructed the Bill, are anxious that it should fulfil. To deal with it in that way now is, of course, an utterly impossible task. I will not try to allot to anyone any blame. It may have been through over-hopefulness; it may have been an under-estimate of its multiplicity of detail; it may have been an expectation that authoritative statements made in a loud voice would be accepted as conclusive, without its being thought necessary to have them more quietly discussed. That, however, is how the matter comes to us now.
The question has been asked—I have seen it asked in the public Press and elsewhere within the last few days—If the members of the House of Lords find themselves taken aback by the Bill, what have they been doing for the last two months, and why did they not study it before it came here? That is exactly what we tried to do. I speak as one of those who, as soon as this Bill began to be discussed in detail, endeavoured to understand its provisions and find out what would be their incidence if they became law upon this or that class of the population. But that became an absolute impossibility. No kaleidoscope that ever was devised by man changed its form and its hue with such rapidity and in so incomprehensible a manner as was the case with this particular Bill. It is literally true to say that a page which one thought one had mastered in one day was unrecognisable when one saw it afresh, and the published account of how these changes came about would be comprised in a few lines of a newspaper. It has been simply impossible, I am certain, for any-

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body except those who in the fullest sense are behind the scenes, the constructors and authors of this Bill, to follow in detail what these changes really meant. They may have been good or they may have been bad, but we have no possible means of knowing.
The Bill comes to us now as something which has been threshed out in the House of Commons. I notice that to-night the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill has 101 Amendments down to the Bill. What would have happened if it had not come here at all, and had passed irrevocably from the House of Commons in a form that needed 101 and more Amendments? I have no doubt that they are all excellent Amendments, but we have no means of considering their details. There is no time to gain any knowledge of the details of the Bill. How can we be expected to discharge the task supposed to be that of a Second Chamber if a Bill comes to us in this way? It may have been inevitable. I am not blaming anybody, but stating the fact. We are simply denied an opportunity of co-operating and trying to make this Bill as good as it can possibly be made, and as far as I can see the only course open to us is to leave it to its authors and constructors and then to hope for the best. It may be a hope which some; of us cherish with confidence, while others of us may feel a little more uneasy about it, but it seems to me to be the only course open to us. I am not suggesting that we should take any other, but we might, at least, be given a definite reply on questions which seem to us not to be answered in the Bill, as to the meaning of points about which we are at this moment in uncertainty.
I will take a specific instance because it is one which affects the profession to which I belong. I refer to the question of whether or not an assistant curate comes under the terms of this Bill as being one who holds a contract of service. That question was debated in the House of Commons. It was raised and discussed on both sides, and the answer was, "We do not know." The Law Officers virtually declared that they could not tell whether it was so or not, and ultimately it came to this, that the matter would have to be settled, if at all, by litigation. Now, my Lords, I ask is that a fair position in which to put thousands of men who are amongst
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the most deserving and hard-working of the population, and certainly not amongst the best paid of the population? I imagine myself in the place of an incumbent who has two or three curates working under him. It may be that the interpretation is going to be that he is liable as an employer under a contract of service, and then he has three possibilities open to him. He may at once begin to put stamps upon the paper, and get his employés, so called, to put stamps upon the paper, and it may be possible that a little later it will be found that the whole of that money has been thrown away, because it turns out to be not a contract of service at all. Or he may take the other line and say, "I will do nothing." But by a clause in the Bill he finds himself under a penalty of £10 for not having carried out what may be ultimately proved to have been the duty he was meant to have carried out, and he is then in a position of no small difficulty. Or he may decide that the matter is to be settled, as we have been told, by litigation. Is it fair that that should be the mode in which the matter is left when it leaves Parliament?
I venture to hope that the noble Viscount to-night will be able to do what the authorities in the House of Commons found themselves unable to do, and tell us clearly whether this Bill is intended or not intended to include the men to whom I have referred. Personally, I hope that the answer may be that it is not intended to include them. I believe that to be the true interpretation of the principle upon which such service is rendered, and these men would not fall, as far as I can understand it, naturally under the provisions of this Bill. But that was not by any means clearly stated to us in the House of Commons by the legal authorities there, and I venture to hope that we may have a definite decision given to us to-night. But my object in rising was to say how cordially many of us who are prevented from discussing the Bill in detail desire to give our endorsement to the principles which underlie this adventurous endeavour, and how cordially we hope that, notwithstanding the difficulties of bringing these principles into practice, it may turn out to fulfil all the highest hopes which have been detailed to this House as to its purpose and its intent.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT MORLEY): My Lords, I do not dispute anything which has fallen from the most rev. Primate as to the hardship which may occur to stipendiary curates. That point my noble friend who is in charge of the Bill will deal with. But the most rev. Primate opens up a very large but perfectly legitimate topic—namely, the difficulty—and a stronger word might be used—of the position in which the House finds itself in dealing with a Bill of this enormous compass, range, and magnitude, with only a few hours in which to supervise it. Nobody is more alive than I am to the fatal element which the most rev. Primate has referred to, and I wondered very often during the discussions upon the Parliament Act that more notice was not taken in the course of the debates of the fatal difficulty in which this House will always stand, whether it be reconstituted or whatever may happen to it, if Bills of importance and magnitude come up leaving a very insufficient time for their full discussion. Noble Lords opposite, who have far more experience of this House than I have, must know that this is as things are, and as I am afraid they are still likely to be, inevitable. You cannot get Bills up from the House of Commons, if they are Bills of importance, so early that this House is left free to deal with them.
The only Act that I have had the honour of introducing and piloting through Parliament was the Indian Councils Act. I was able to introduce it in this House. In this House it was most adequately, fully, and fairly discussed, and that was no doubt a Bill of the first importance. But there are Bills which must evidently be introduced in another place, and it is equally evident that they cannot be brought up here at any very early date. But that is a general consideration which I think it right to mention. This is an annual story—a hardy annual story. In the year 1901, when noble Lords opposite sat on this side, the Factory and Workshops Bill came up from the other House. I am not going into the transaction, but I would like to read to your Lordships a few sentences that were used on that occasion by so faithful and admirable a representative of noble Lords opposite as the Duke of Northumberland. On August 15,
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1901, the Duke of Northumberland said this—
"We are on the eve of the holidays, and during the recess some of us may attend public meetings, and at those meetings the question is sometimes asked, 'Is the House of Lords worth preserving?' What is the use of the House of Lords if a Bill of this magnitude and importance is to be presented at a time when it cannot be discussed, and when it is forced practically down our throats whether we like it or not."
Then at the end of this stage the noble Duke said—
"Lord James has said that this Bill has 100 new points in it, and yet the House of Lords is told to take it or leave it."
And the noble Duke added—
"This was the way in which a Conservative Government supported the House of Lords."
I only recite that reminiscence in order to show that this is a very old story, and, so far as I can sec, whatever you do with this House, it will be a standing story.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I remember perfectly well the circumstances of the Factory and Workshops Bill of 1901, but they were not comparable with the state of things with which we are now confronted. But, after all, what does the answer of the noble Viscount amount to? It amounts only to what is called a tu quoque. I confess I am sorry that in the past this House has been so submissive. I think that the circumstances of the Parliament Bill to a large extent alter the justification for bringing up Bills as has been done at the end of this session in a way, whatever the noble Viscount may say, which I maintain is absolutely unprecedented, and it is done at a time of year when it makes it absolutely impossible for us to take a longer time over the Bills. In August of 1901 the House, if it had chosen, could have taken a few more days. At present, owing to circumstances which are known to everybody, we are debarred from doing that if we wish.
I do not desire to prolong this discussion, but I have been thinking—and I shall probably take an opportunity of calling attention to this on an early day in another session—that a remedy, at any rate with regard to the class of Bills of this description, could be found in an amendment of procedure which would enable us to do more in the way of carrying over Bills from one session to another. That has

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been done frequently in the case of Private Bills, and I see no Constitutional difficulty in extending that practice to Bills of another class. But, of course, it would require the cordial co-operation of both Houses of Parliament. Each House is master of its own procedure, and there might be a carrying over of Bills to another session if they should choose to do so. But, my Lords, obviously it cannot be so useful unless there is the co-operation of the other House of Parliament. Take the Shops Bill. If we were to carry over that measure to another session it would have to go through all its stages in the other House, unless by the adoption of some Standing Order a Bill could be taken up at the same stage at which it had been previously in the preceding session. I am not going to elaborate that at the moment, but I venture to call the attention of the noble Viscount to it, because if his speech meant anything at all it was simply a throwing up of his hands in despair at the state of things of which this House was a victim and at an inevitable circumstance which it could not get over. If the noble Viscount did not mean that, I apologise.
VISCOUNT MORLEY: I did not say the House could not get over it. I think I used the word "inevitable," but I meant inevitable under the present line of argument followed by both Parties.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: With that qualification it seems to me hardly worth calling inevitable. If there was good will on both sides I venture to say that the simple proposal which I am only indicating at the moment is one which would get over a great many practical difficulties, and would restore to this House its position as a revising Chamber which along with other privileges has been taken away from it.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, I do not rise to continue this discussion. It is, no doubt, a very interesting subject, and will be discussed at some suitable time. But so far as this Bill is concerned, what we virtually decided on the Second Reading was to get on with it. I rise now to give an answer to the most rev. Primate on the question of law which he raised, as to whether a curate comes within this Bill or not. The definition in the
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First Schedule is that employment under this Bill means employment under a contract of service or apprenticeship. If the most rev. Primate will refer to the discussions in Committee in the other House he will find that the meaning of these words was very much discussed and that the Law Officers, notably Sir John Simon, the Solicitor-General gave a very strong opinion, after consideration, that a curate was not within these words. I myself have, with the best ability I possess, gone into the question, and it seems to me that a curate is a person who is there in virtue, not merely of a contract, but in virtue of his status. He is licensed by the Bishop, and without that licence he could not be there or perform his functions. No doubt in a sense he is employed by the incumbent, but I think he would be very much astonished if he was treated as a servant within the scope of this Bill, which you must look at as a whole in order to see what is meant by contract of service or employment or apprenticeship. Speaking for myself I do not think a curate comes within these words, and I think the most rev. Primate may be content to rely upon that view. At the end of Clause 68 there is power given to the Insurance Commissioners to decide the question of any difficulty about a penalty arising, and anybody following the decisions which the Insurance Commissioners give will see that is so. Therefore on a double ground the House is asked to act upon the view of the Government that curates are not within the section. Thirdly—because there is a third ground—the Government would be bound to get anybody out of the trouble they would have got into if a wrong view of the law had been taken. Therefore I think we may proceed on the footing that curates are not included. To try to put a definition clause in would be the most difficult thing in the world, because there are a great many contracts of employment which are not contracts of service or apprenticeship though they may look like it, and to define by excluding a curate would be to suggest that by reason of some other ground somebody else came within this Bill. Therefore it is on all grounds inadvisable to attempt such a definition. One can only rely on the law as it stands. I speak in the presence of much higher authority, but my own opinion is that a curate undoubtedly is not within the provisions of this Bill.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: My Lords, I do not desire to say anything as regards the case of the curate, but I do desire to say a word in particular as to the observation made a moment ago by my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh. The most rev. Primate protested against the manner in which this House has been treated with regard to the Bill upon the Table. I have already made my protest, and I do not wish to repeat it this evening. But what I do wish to say, as strongly as I can, is that we on this side of the House cannot accept the proposition which is apparently suggested by the noble Viscount who leads the House when he tells us that this old scandal—for it is an old scandal—is "inevitable as things are." Those were his words, and he said it was one to the recurrence of which this House must look forward for all time. The noble Viscount talks of its being inevitable as things are. But he has forgotten that things to-day are no longer what they were twelve months ago, or before that. He has forgotten that this House has been shorn of the greater part of its powers, and that therefore a double injury is inflicted upon it when we are, in the first place, deprived of the greater part of our powers, and, in the second place, denied the legitimate opportunity of exercising those powers that are still left to us. I do not agree with the noble Viscount when he says that whatever we do this grievance must continue. I feel convinced, that the question of the position of this House in regard to its opportunities for dealing with measures coming from the other House of Parliament will have to be seriously considered, and that whenever the time comes—as it must—for dealing with the whole question of the constitution of the Second Chamber and its relations to the other He use of Parliament, this question will call aloud for a settlement more satisfactory than anything which has yet been offered to us.
THE EARL OF HALSBURY: My Lords, there are two topics that I wish to refer to, and as this is the only opportunity of doing so I will speak on both although they are very diverse from each other. With reference to the first, I have no doubt in the world that the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill will concur with me that this conversation and the opinions expressed, however illuminating they may be to your Lordships, will have no place in the construction of this Bill when it
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comes before a Court of Justice. But I certainly am of opinion, looking at the whole Bill and the object and purport of it, that a curate is not in "employment." The terms "service" and "employment" are not appropriate in that sense, and if I were construing the language myself I should come to the conclusion that a curate was not included in the Bill.
The other point is to my mind a much more serious one than the particular question with which we have been dealing, and, as I say, I only refer to it now because this is my only opportunity upon this stage of the Bill. My protest—for that really is what it comes to—is practically upon Clause 62 of the Bill, which deals with the question of insanitary places and unusual and extraordinary sickness. Now, my Lords, this is not the only occasion on which I have had to make exactly the same protest. The person who is to try that question, to try the very intricate and difficult question which is raised by the sixty-second clause, is to be a "competent person" appointed by the Government. From time to time I have had to make the same protest—that real questions of law and very difficult questions of law are not left to the Court to decide but are left to some person or another appointed by the Government. I hold in my hand a protest made by persons who certainly profess to be very widely interested in such questions—I refer to the Association of Municipal Corporations, the County Councils Association, the Urban District Councils Association, and the Rural Districts Councils Association. They say they are the four associations who represent together the local authorities of this country. Whether that last claim is absolutely correct or not I will not say without further investigation. But what they state is this, that the questions raised in this clause affect them, as they may be the principal sufferers in consequence of the default which is supposed to give rise to what follows. What they say—and I wish most heartily to concur in the language which they use—is this:
"We respectfully submit that if Parliament deems it right to approve the general principles of the clause and to retain it in the Bill provision should be inserted giving an absolute right to the parties affected to appeal from the decision of the person holding the inquiry to the tribunal provided by this country who would examine the matters judicially. It would be, we submit, a grave misfortune if, when Parliament enacts important and far-reaching and unprecedented

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provisions, the bodies thereby affected were deprived of their right to appeal to the Courts of Law."
I will only add to those words that last week your Lordships, by a large majority, insisted upon an appeal in the Scottish Landholders Bill with regard to a proposal which shows the tendency, and I am sorry to say the increasing tendency, on the part of the Government to try and get rid of the supervision of the Courts of Law.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clauses 1 to 7 agreed to.
Clause 8:
Benefits.
8.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, the benefits conferred by this Part of this Act upon insured persons are—

(a) Medical treatment and attendance, including the provision of proper and sufficient medicines, and such medical and surgical appliances as may be prescribed by regulations to be made by the Insurance Commissioners (in this Act called "medical benefit");

(b) Treatment in sanatoria or other institutions or otherwise when suffering from tuberculosis, or such other diseases as the Local Government Board with the approval of the Treasury may appoint (in this Act called "sanatorium benefit");

(c) Periodical payments whilst rendered incapable of work by some specific disease or by bodily or mental disablement, of which notice has been given, commencing from the fourth day after being so rendered incapable of work, and continuing for a period not exceeding twenty-six weeks (in this Act called "sickness benefit");

(d) In the case of the disease or disablement continuing after the determination of sickness benefit, periodical payments so long as so rendered incapable of work by the disease or disablement (in this Act called "disablement benefit");

(e) Payment in the case of the confinement of the wife or, where the child is a posthumous child, of the widow of an insured person, or of any other woman who is an insured person, of a sum of thirty shillings (in this Act called "maternity benefit");

(f) In the case of persons entitled under this Part of this Act to any of the further benefits mentioned in Part II of the Fourth Schedule to this Act (in this Act called "additional benefits") such of those benefits as they may be entitled to.

(2) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, the rates of sickness benefit and disablement benefit to which insured persons are entitled shall be the rates specified in Part I of the fourth Schedule to this Act.
(3) In the case of insured persons who have attained the ago of seventy the right to sickness benefit and disablement benefit shall cease.
(4) No insured person shall he entitled to any benefit during any period when he is resident either temporarily or permanently outside the United Kingdom:
Provided that if a person is temporarily resident in the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands he shall not, whilst so resident, be disentitled to benefits other than medical benefit, and that if with the consent of the society or committee by which the benefit is administered, a person is temporarily resident outside the United Kingdom elsewhere than in the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands, the society or committee may allow' him, whilst no resident, to continue to receive sickness or disablement benefit, and that a person resident out of the United Kingdom shall not be disentitled to maternity benefit in respect of the confinement of his wife, if his wife at the time of her confinement is resident in the United Kingdom.
(5) Where an insured person, having been in receipt of sickness benefit, recovers from the disease or disablement in respect of which he receives such benefit, any subsequent disease or disablement, or a recurrence of the same disease or disablement, shall be deemed to be a continuation of the previous disease or disablement, unless in the meanwhile a period of at least twelve months has elapsed, and at least fifty weekly contributions have been paid by or in respect of him.
(6) Where a woman confined of a child is herself an insured person, and is a married woman, or, if the child is a posthumous child, a widow, she shall be entitled to sickness benefit or disablement benefit (as the case may be) in respect of her confinement in addition to the maternity benefit to which she or her husband may be entitled, but save as aforesaid, a woman shall not be entitled to sickness benefit or disablement benefit for a period of four weeks after her confinement unless suffering from disease or disablement not connected directly or indirectly with her confinement.
Medical benefit shall not include any right to medical treatment or attendance in respect of a confinement.
(7) Where a pension or superannuation allowance payable in whole or in part as an additional benefit under this Part of this Act is provided, it may be made a condition of the grant of the pension or allowance that a member of the society shall, whilst in receipt of such pension or allowance, be excluded in whole or in part from his right to sickness benefit and disablement benefit, or to either of such benefits.
(8) Notwithstanding anything in this Part of this Act, no insured person shall be entitled—

(a) to medical benefit during the first six months after the commencement of this Act;

(b) to sickness benefit unless and until twenty-six weeks have elapsed since his entry into insurance, and at least twenty-six weekly contributions have been paid by or in respect of him;

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(c) to disablement benefit unless and until one hundred and four weeks have elapsed since his entry into insurance, and at least one hundred and four weekly contributions have been paid by or in respect of him;

(d) to maternity benefit unless and until twenty-six, or in the ease of a voluntary contributor fifty-two weeks have elapsed since his entry into insurance, and at least twenty-six, or in the case of a voluntary contributor fitfy-two weekly contributions have been paid by or in respect of him.

(9) As soon as the sums credited to approved societies as reserve values in respect of persons who enter into insurance within one year after the commencement of this Act have been written off in manner provided by this Part of this Act, the benefits payable to insured persons under this Part of this Act shall be extended in such manner as Parliament may determine.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I move to leave out the word "payable" at the beginning of subsection (7) and to insert "is payable by an approved society." This Amendment is little more than drafting. It is not an Amendment which changes the substance. Under the provisions of the Schedule additional benefits may be given, and among these additional benefits there may be given pensions, and where pensions are given they ought to be placed on the same footing as other annual payments are placed under Clause 8, where in the event of those pensions being given sickness and disability payment are not given cumulatively.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 16, leave out ("payable") and insert ("is payable by an approved society").—( Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to leave out "is provided" in subsection (7) and to insert the words in his Amendment. The noble Viscount said: This is again practically drafting. It makes no change in the substance of the Amendment which was incorporated during the Report stage in the other House.
Amendment moved—
Page 8, line 18, leave out ("is provided") and insert ("or out of any fund to which contributions have been made in accordance with paragraph (10) of Part II of the Fourth Schedule to this Act").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 9:
Reduced rates of benefit in certain cases.
9.—(1) In the case of insured persons who are under the age of twenty-one years and unmarried, sickness benefit and disablement benefit shall be at the reduced rates specified in Table B in Part I of the Fourth Schedule to this Act:
Provided that where any such person being a member of an approved society, proves that one or more members of his family are wholly or mainly dependent upon him, the society shall dispense with such reduction.
(2) Where in the case of any insured persons the rate of sickness benefit or disablement benefit (as the case may be) exceeds two-thirds of the usual rate of wages or other remuneration earned by such persons, the rate of such benefit shall be reduced to such an extent as the society or committee administering the benefit, with the consent of the Insurance Commissioners, determines; but where such reduction is made provision shall be made by the society or committee, with the like consent, for the grant of one or more additional benefits of a value equivalent to such reduction.
(3) The rate of sickness benefit shall be reduced in accordance with Table C in Part I of the fourth Schedule to this Act in the case of any insured person who becomes an employed contributor within one year after the commencement of this Act, and is at the date of so becoming an employed contributor of the age of fifty years or upwards and the number of weekly contributions paid by or in respect of him is at the date of any claim by him for such benefit less than five hundred.
(4) In the case of every person over the age of sixteen years who, not having been previously insured under this Part of this Act, becomes an employed contributor subsequently to the expiration of one year from the commencement of this Act, the rate of sickness benefit to which he is entitled shall (unless he proves that his time since he attained the age of sixteen has been spent in a school or college, in indentured apprenticeship or otherwise under instruction without wages, or otherwise in the completion of his education, or unless he undertakes himself to pay the difference between the voluntary rate and the employed rate, or pays to the Insurance Commissioners to be credited to the society, such capital sum as will be sufficient to secure him benefits at the full rate be such reduced rate as may be fixed in accordance with tables to be prepared by the Insurance Commissioners, but not in any case less than five shillings a week:
Provided that if at any time subsequently such person would become entitled to sickness benefit at a higher rate if he were treated as having become an employed contributor as from the time when he attained the age of sixteen, or as from the expiration of one year after the commencement of this Act, whichever date may be the later, and as being in arrear for all contributions which, had he become an employed contributor at that date, would have been payable in respect of him between that date and the date when he actually became an employed contributor, he shall, if he so elects, be entitled to be so treated.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I move to amend subsection (2) by omitting the word "shall" ["the rate of such benefit shall"] and inserting "may." There was a slip

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made in the Amendment inserted on the Report stage in the other House. In the Bill as originally introduced it was made compulsory to reduce the rates on sickness and disablement benefit when they exceeded two-thirds of the ordinary wages, but by general assent that provision was made optional, and, of course, there should have been "may" substituted for "shall." "May" is the proper word. It is a matter of drafting, and I move the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 9, line 18, leave out ("shall") and insert ("may").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I move to leave out "over the age of 16 years" at the commencement of subsection (4), and I move corresponding Amendments. I move, after the words "commencement of this Act" in the same subsection, to insert "and is, at the time of so becoming an employed contributor, of the age of seventeen or upwards." Then I move to leave out "sixteen" ["unless he proves that his time since he attained the age of sixteen"] and to substitute "seventeen"; and in the proviso at the end of the clause I move to omit "sixteen" ["from the time when he attained the age of sixteen"] and to insert "seventeen." These are all drafting Amendments. As the clause stands it is not clear at what time a person is to be regarded as over the age of 16. The definition clause says that a person after attaining the age of 16 is not to be treated as being over that age till his next subsequent birthday. That means, of course, when he is 17. It is very clumsy to leave it as it is now, and we propose to call him 17 when he is 17.
Amendments moved—
Page 9, line 33, leave out ("over the age of sixteen years")
Page 9, line 36, after ("Act") insert ("and is, at the time of so becoming an employed contributor, of the age of seventeen or upwards")
Page 9, line 38, leave out ("sixteen") and insert ("seventeen").
Page 10, line 11, leave out ("sixteen") and insert ("seventeen").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 10:
Reduced rates of benefits where contributions are in arrear.
10.—(1) Where an insured person being a member of an approved society is in arrear to an amount greater than thirteen weekly contributions a year on the average since his entry into insurance, his right to benefits under this Part of this Act other than medical benefit, sanatorium benefit, and maternity benefit shall be suspended, and where he is in arrears to an amount greater than twenty-six weekly contributions a year on the average since his entry into insurance his right to medical benefit, sanatorium benefit, and maternity benefit shall be suspended, and at the expiration of the calendar year next after the date when he becomes suspended from all benefits any sums credited to the society in respect of him, calculated in the prescribed manner, shall, if his right to benefits still continues to be suspended, be carried to such account for the benefit of the society or any other society to which he may subsequently be transferred and dealt with in such manner as may be prescribed
Provided that if at any time after suspension from any such benefits he becomes employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act ho shall be entitled to those benefits at such rate, after the lapse of such time and after the payment of such number of contributions, as would have been applicable to his case had he not previously been an insured person, but if he so elects at any time the benefits to which he is entitled shall be, such as he would be entitled to, were the period from the time of his original entry into insurance taken as a whole.
(2) Where an employed contributor claiming sickness benefit is at the date of such claim in arrears but the arrears are less than as aforesaid, then the rate of sickness benefit shall be reduced to a sum not less than five shillings a week or the time when sickness benefit commences deferred, proportionately to the amount of arrears in accordance with the table in the Fifth Schedule to this Act.
(3) Where a voluntary contributor is in arrears he shall be liable to such proportionate reduction of benefits as may be prescribed.
(4) In calculating arrears of contributions, no account shall be taken of any arrears accruing—

(a) during any period when the person in question has been, or but for this section or any other provision of the Act disentitling a person to such benefit would have been, in receipt of sickness benefit or disablement benefit; or

(b) in the case of a woman who, being an insured person, is herself entitled to maternity benefit during two weeks before and four weeks after her confinement, or in the case of maternity benefit payable in respect of the posthumous child of an insured person during the period subsequent to the father's death; or

(c) in the case of an employed contributor during the first twelve months after the commencement of this Act;

but, save as aforesaid, contributions shall be deemed to be payable in respect of every week from the date of entry into insurance.
(5) Where an insured person has paid any arrears of contributions payable by or in respect of him which accrued during the calendar year current at the date of payment and the previous calendar year, he shall be treated for the purposes of this section as if the arrears so paid had never become due:
Provided that if such person is at the date of payment or subsequently within one month thereafter becomes incapable of work by reason of disease or disablement, he shall for the purposes of this section be deemed to be still in arrear in respect of the amount so paid until after the expiration of one month from the date of such payment.
(6) Any approved society may, if it thinks lit, excuse any part of the arrears which may have accrued due by or in respect of any member who is an employed contributor during any period of unemployment not exceeding such part as would have been payable by the employer had the member continued in his last employment, and in such case the amount of the arrears of that member shall be reduced accordingly.
(7) The average amount of arrears for the purposes of this section shall be calculated in such manner as the Insurance Commissioners may prescribe.
LORD BYRON LORD BYRON moved to substitute "institutional" for "sanatorium" where that word first appeared in the clause. The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment, and in fact of all the Amendments standing in my name, is to comprehend within the scope of this Bill as many as possible of the existing hospitals, and this for two reasons. First of all, in the case of accidents these institutions provide the very best accommodation and the very best medical attendance. The idea is no longer that any injured person goes to these hospitals under the stigma of charity. Secondly, I wish that the people should utilise these hospitals more during the gradual establishment of sanatoria. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, speaking at Birmingham on June 10 last, said—
"The first thing to do in our Bill is to provide adequate medical treatment for every workman in the United Kingdom."
Such adequate treatment must include hospital treatment, and experience has shown that such treatment requires at least two free beds per thousand of the population. At present few hospitals can afford to give a probation bed to insured persons without recourse to the Government or to the insured.
The population of Greater London, according to the last Census, was about 7¼ millions, and the number of persons
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who will be insured is estimated at 2½ millions. To secure adequate accommodation for this number about 5,000 beds will be required for sole use. The London hospitals contain altogether about 10,500 beds, of which about 10,000 are constantly occupied. If, therefore, as is estimated, the subscriptions to these hospitals decline to the extent of 40 per cent. there will only remain about 6,000 beds, or not more than 1,000 more than is required under the Bill for the insured. I notice that "hospital" occurs in Clause 12, section 2 (c) as being available in certain cases only, but I do not know if it occurs elsewhere. I have not been able to find out. The phrase "sanatorium or similar institution" occurs several times, so that the principle of hospital treatment seems already to be introduced, but in the case which is alluded to the persons qualified for admittance appear to be those who have no dependants, which must, of course, exclude a great number.
The object of my Amendment is to free these hospitals to all insured persons, wherever necessary, by agreement between the Commissioners and the hospital authorities by a pro rata payment to be set aside for a certain number of wards and beds for such persons. Then, turning to Clause 16, I have later on an Amendment which concerns the question of accidents in hospitals. As accidents are occurring every day it is quite impossible for an insured person who has been injured to go before the local Medical Board, the Board of Health, before he is admitted to the hospital, and the object of my Amendment which comes later in Clause 16 is to enable the insured person to go to the hospitals on the recommendation of a qualified medical officer. My second object, as I say, is to utilise the hospitals as sanatoria. For instance, the various consumptive and kindred hospitals would come in here, although I do not understand that the sanatoria are alone to be used for pulmonary complaints. They are, I suppose, to be used for complaints of all kinds, and the arrangements I have spoken of, if made, would give time for the various sanatoria to arise. It would be possible, says the Hospital newspaper, under a matured and careful scheme, for the hospital bed area gradually to cover the whole ground of sanatoria and hospital accommodation out of the fund provided under the Bill as it stands at present.
My idea is that it would be almost unnecessary to erect sanatoria if we used all available hospital accommodation. There would remain, of course, the question of the increased hospital accommodation that would be necessary for the general public by the absorption of so many beds by the insured. But this would be partly met by the adoption of the Continental system, where the patients are divided into four different classes; it would be partly met by the fact that many of the ordinary patients would be amongst the insured; and it would be partly met by a system of loans by the local board, which would be repaid by a sinking fund to be provided by the hospitals, with a clearance of the loans from time to time. The expense to these hospitals would not be so great as would at first sight appear, because many of them already have building sites on which annexes could be erected for temporary purposes, or, if it was decided to use them as sanatoria, permanent buildings. The Hospital newspaper which I have just quoted said in its number of December 9—
"As the Amendment would indicate, a sum set aside for sanatorium benefit must be made available, as to a certain proportion, for hospital benefit, an arrangement which will have the advantage of securing that all the rest of the expenditure under both heads should be made with the fullest care so as to avoid hasty expenditure upon buildings and sanatoria provision, and the undue multiplication of such buildings, which may, and probably will, otherwise take place."
After all, sanatoria are one kind of several institutions which are already in use, and it is possible at present to eradicate tuberculosis in the same way that typhus fever, smallpox, typhoid, scarlet fever, and other pests of our population have been successfully grappled with. Therefore the object of this Amendment, and of all those which stand in my name, is to utilise the hospitals where possible for sanatoria, and to enable the insured persons to use hospitals in cases of accidents upon the certificate of a certified medical practitioner.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 21, leave out ("sanatorium") and insert ("institional").—(Lord Byron.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: The object of the noble Lord's Amendment is to make institutional treatment—that is to say, treatment in hospitals—take the place of treatment in sanatoria. That is a
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very large principle, and if it were accepted it would upset the whole machinery of this Bill with regard to the treatment of consumption. After a great deal of discussion in the other House it was decided, on what was believed to be the best expert opinion, that the best chance of coping with consumption was to take it very early, and to treat it by giving preliminary treatment in sanatoria—not a long treatment, but a treatment which would enable the patient to get rid of the tubercle and have a chance afterwards. What is now proposed is to treat all these cases in hospitals, and to apply the machinery, the beneficial machinery, which has been applied to sanatoria to hospitals. The effect would be to convert the existing hospitals into publicly-supported and Treasury-aided institutions. That would be one very large consequence of the Amendment. Another consequence is that the charge would be very much increased, because these institutions are to be dealt with evenly. What the financial effect would be I cannot say, but a very much larger amount than the £1,000,000 which the State proposes to provide would be required. Therefore I beg to say that this whole series of Amendments is not such as we are competent to consider in this House, or which any private member is competent to propose. But the difficulty that is fatal, not only to this but to all the Amendments of the noble Lord, is that they would involve a complete recasting of the whole of this part of the Bill. We should be thrown into the most complete confusion, and it would not be the same Bill if the Amendments were accepted.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to omit from subsection (1) the words "for the benefit of the society or any other society to which he may subsequently be transferred," and to insert, after the words "in such manner as may be prescribed" at the end of the first paragraph, the words "for the benefit (except so far as such sums comprise sums in respect of a reserve value) of the society or any other society to which such person may subsequently be transferred." The noble Viscount said: This Amendment deals with this case. There is just a possibility that an enterprising insurance society might, particularly

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in the case of a voluntary contributor, do this: let him drop out of insurance, and even encourage him to drop out of insurance, very soon after he had insured, and then when he was an old life take the reserve value. I do not wish to explain to your Lordships over again what the reserve value credited by the State to an old life is, but it is created out of the State money and not out of contributions of the insured. Consequently if it were possible to drop him out of insurance and appropriate the reserve value there would be very great temptation to the insurance society to take that course, and it is not desirable that the Bill should so provide. What we propose by these two Amendments is to except sums that are in respect of reserve value. The effect of the Amendments is to prevent societies from getting any advantage, if the insured drops out of insurance, by appropriating the money contributed by the State to make up this reserve value.
Amendments moved—
Page 10, line 31, leave out from ("account") to ("and") in line 33.
Page 10, line 34, after ("prescribed") insert ("for the benefit (except so far as such sums comprise sums in respect of a reserve value) of the society or any other society to which such person may subsequently be transferred").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD SANDHURST: I move to substitute "delivery" for "confinement" in paragraph (b) of subsection (4). I think that the Bill as it runs hardly intends what it would be thought it conveys. "Confinement" hardly appears to me to be enough. I think what my noble friend means is better met by the term "delivery."
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 22, leave out ("confinement") and insert ("delivery").— (Lord Sandhurst.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I think that is better, and I accept it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 11:
Provisions in the case of contributors entitled to compensation or damages.
11.—(1) Where an insured person has received or recovered or is entitled to receive or recover, whether from his employer or any other person, any compensation or damages under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, or any scheme certified thereunder, or under the Employers' Liability Act, 1880, or at common law, in respect of any injury or disease, the following provisions shall apply:—

(a) No sickness benefit or disablement benefit shall be paid to such person in respect of that injury or disease in any case where any weekly sum or the weekly value of any lump sum paid or payable by way of compensation or damages is equal to or greater than the benefit otherwise payable to such person, and where any such weekly sum or the weekly value of any such lump sum is less than the benefit in question, such part only of the benefit shall be paid as, together with the weekly sum or the weekly value of the lump sum, will be equal to the benefit:

(b) The weekly value of any such lump sum as aforesaid may be determined by the society or committee by which the sickness and disablement benefits payable to such person are administered, but if the insured person is aggrieved by such determination, the matter shall be settled in manner provided by this Part of this Act for settling disputes:

(c) Where an agreement is made as to the amount of such compensation as aforesaid, and that amount is less than ten shillings a week or as to the redemption of a weekly payment by a lump sum under the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1900, the employer shall, within three days thereafter, send to the Insurance Commissioners, or to the society or committee concerned, notice in writing of such agreement giving the prescribed particulars thereof, and proviso (d) to paragraph (9) of the Second Schedule of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906 (which relates to the powers of registrars of county courts to refuse to record memoranda of agreements and to refer the matter to the judge) shall, in cases where the workman is an insured person apply to agreements as to the amount of compensation, in like manner as to agreements as to the redemption of weekly payments by lump sums.

(2) Where an insured person appears to be entitled to any such compensation or damages as aforesaid and unreasonably refuses or neglects to take proceedings to enforce his claim, it shall be lawful for the society or committee concerned, either—

(a) at its own expense, to take in the name and on behalf of such person such proceedings, in which case any compensation or damages recovered shall be held by the society or committee as trustee for the insured person; or

(b) to withhold payment of any benefit to which apart from this section such person would be entitled.

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In the event of the, society or committee concerned taking proceedings as aforesaid, and failing in the proceedings, it shall be responsible for the costs of the proceedings as if it were claiming on its own account.
(3) Nothing in this section shall prevent the society or committee paying to an insured person benefit by way of advance pending the settlement of his claim for compensation or damages, and any advance so made shall without prejudice to any other method of recovery, be recoverable by deductions from or suspension of any benefits which may subsequently become payable to such person.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to add, at the end of paragraph (b) of subsection (1), the words "between insured persons and societies or committees."
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 37, after ("disputes") insert ("between insured persons and societies or committees").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to amend paragraph (c) of subsection (1) by leaving out "that amount" ["of such compensation as aforesaid, and that amount"], and inserting "the amount so agreed."
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 39, leave out ("that amount") and insert ("the amount so agreed").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved, in paragraph (c) of subsection (1), after the word "thereafter" ["the employer shall, within three days thereafter"], to insert "or such longer time as may be prescribed." The noble Viscount said: A promise was given in Committee in the other House to consider whether the three days could not be extended, and by an oversight effect was not given to the promise. The Amendment will enable the time to be extended.
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 2, after ("thereafter") insert ("or such longer time as may be prescribed").—Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 12:
Provisions in the case of contributors who are inmates of hospitals, &c.
12.—(1) No payment shall be made on account of sickness disablement or maternity benefit to or in respect of any person during any period when the person to or in respect of whom the benefit is payable is an inmate of any workhouse, hospital, asylum, convalescent home, or infirmary, supported by any public authority or out of any public funds or by a charity, or voluntary subscriptions, or of a sanatorium or similar institution approved under this Part of this Act.
(2) During such period as aforesaid the sum which would otherwise have been payable on account of any such benefit to or in respect of such person—

(a) shall be paid to or applied in whole or in part for the relief or maintenance of his dependants (if any) in such manner as the society or committee by which the benefit is administered, after consultation whenever possible with such person, thinks fit; or

(b) if such person, being a member of an approved society, is an inmate of a sanatorium or similar institution in which he is receiving treatment in accordance with the provisions of this Part of this Act, and has no dependants, shall be paid to the Insurance Committee towards the general purposes thereof; or

(c) if such person, being a member of an approved society, is an inmate of a hospital, asylum, convalescent home, or infirmary supported by charity or by voluntary subscriptions and has no dependants, shall, if an agreement for the purpose has been made between the society or committee and the hospital, asylum, convalescent home, or infirmary, be paid, in whole or in part, according to such agreement, towards the maintenance of such person in the hospital, asylum, convalescent home, or infirmary:

Provided that—

(i) any part of such sum which is not so applied as aforesaid may, if the society or committee thinks fit, be applied in the provision of any surgical appliances required for the insured person or otherwise for his benefit; and

(ii) if such an inmate as aforesaid is a married woman or widow, and the sums so payable or applicable as aforesaid include the sums which would have been payable both on account of sickness or disablement benefit and on account of maternity benefit, no part of the sum which would otherwise be payable on account of maternity benefit shall be paid or applied for the relief or maintenance of her dependants, but such sum may be paid to the hospital, asylum, convalescent home, or infirmary of which she is an inmate as aforesaid in like manner as if she had no dependants.

LORD BYRON LORD BYRON moved, after "inmate" in paragraph (c) of subsection (2), to insert "otherwise than as a person in receipt of institutional benefit." The noble Lord said: These words are intended to include persons in this class who are already in the hospital or who are unable to go before the Health Committee. I found this suggestion in the Hospital, the leading organ, I believe, of the London hospitals, and I therefore put it down as an Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 10, after ("inmate") insert ("otherwise than as a person in receipt of institutional benefit").—(Lord Byron.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: This Amendment has no meaning unless the noble Lord's previous Amendment had been inserted. The House negatived that, and therefore the present Amendment has no meaning.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 12 agreed to.
Clauses 13 and 14 agreed to.
Clause 15:
Administration of medical benefit.
15.—(1) Every Insurance Committee shall for the purpose of administering medical benefit make arrangements with duly qualified medical practitioners in accordance with regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners.
(2) The regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners shall provide for the arrangements made being subject to the approval of the Insurance Commissioners and being such as to secure that insured persons shall, save as hereinafter provided, receive adequate medical attendance and treatment from the medical practitioners with whom arrangements are so made, and shall require the adoption by every Insurance Committee of such system as will secure—

(a) the preparation and publication of lists of medical practitioners who have agreed to attend and treat insured persons whose medical benefit is administered by the committee;

(b) a right on the part of any duly qualified medical practitioner who is desirous of being included in any such list as aforesaid of being so included, but where the Insurance Commissioners, after such inquiry as may be prescribed, are satisfied that his continuance in the list would be prejudicial to the efficiency of the medical service of the insured, they may remove his name from the list;

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(c) a right on the part of any insured person of selecting, at such periods as may be prescribed, from the appropriate list the practitioner by whom he wishes to be attended and treated, and subject to the consent of the practitioner so selected, of being attended and treated by him;

(d) the distribution amongst and, so far as practicable, under arrangements made by, the several practitioners whose names are on the lists, of the insured persons who after due notice have failed to make any selection, or who have been refused by the practitioner whom they have selected;

(e) the provision of medical attendance and treatment, on the same terms as those arranged with respect to insured persons, to members of any friendly society which becomes an approved society who were such members at the date of the passing of this Act, and who are not entitled to medical benefit under this Part of this Act by reason either that they are of the age of sixty-five or upwards at the date of the commencement of this Act, or that being subject to permanent disablement at that date they are not qualified to become insured persons:

Provided that if the Insurance Commissioners are satisfied after inquiry that the practitioners included in any list are not such as to secure an adequate medical service in any area, they may dispense with the necessity of the adoption of such system as aforesaid as respects that area, and authorise the Committee to make such other arrangements as the Commissioners may approve or the Commissioners may themselves make such arrangements as they think fit, or may suspend the right to medical benefit in respect of any insured persons in the area for such period as they think fit, and pay to each such person a sum equal to the estimated cost of his medical benefit during that period, and where the Commissioners take any such action themselves they shall retain and apply for the purpose such part of the sums payable to the Insurance Committee in respect of medical benefit as may be required.
(3) The regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners shall authorise the Insurance Committee by which medical benefit is administered to require any persons whose income exceeds a limit to be fixed by the Committee, and to allow any other persons, in lieu of receiving medical benefit under such arrangements as aforesaid, to make their own arrangements for receiving medical attendance and treatment (including medicines and appliances), and in such case the Committee shall, subject to the regulations, contribute from the funds out of which medical benefit is payable towards the cost of medical attendance and treatment (including medicines and appliances) for such persons sums not exceeding in the aggregate the amounts which the Committee would otherwise have expended in providing medical benefit for them.
(4) The regulations shall provide that, in the case of persons who are entitled to receive medical attendance and treatment under any system or through any institution existing at the time of the passing of this Act, and approved by the Insurance Committee and the Insurance Com-

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missioners, such medical attendance and treatment may be treated as, or as part of, their medical benefit under this Part of this Act, and may provide for the Committee contributing towards the expenses thereof the whole or any part of the sums which would he contributed in the cast: of persons who have made their own arrangments as aforesaid, so, however, that such regulations shall secure that no person be deprived of his right, if he so elects, of selecting the duly qualified medical practitioner by whom he wishes to be attended and treated, in accordance with the foregoing provisions of this section.
(5) Every such Committee shall also make provision for the supply of proper and sufficient drugs and medicines and prescribed appliances to insured persons in accordance with regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, which shall provide for the arrangements made being subject to the approval of the Insurance Commissioners, and being such as to enable insured persons to obtain from any persons, firms, or bodies corporate with whom arrangements have been made such drugs, medicines, and appliances if ordered by the medical practitioner by whom they are attended, and shall require the adoption by every Insurance Committee of such a system as will secure—

(a) The preparation and publication of lists of persons, firms, and bodies corporate who have agreed to supply drugs, medicines, and appliances to insured persons whoso medical benefit is administered by the Committee, according to such scale of prices as may be fixed by the Committee;

(b) A right on the part of any person, firm, or body corporate desirous of being included in any such list as aforesaid, of being so included for the purpose of supplying such drugs, medicines, and appliances as such person, firm, or body corporate is entitled by law and authorised by the Committee to supply except in cases where the Insurance Commissioners after inquiry are satisfied that the inclusion or continuance of the person, firm, or body corporate in such list would be prejudicial to the efficiency of the service:

Provided that—

(i) If the Insurance Commissioners are satisfied that the scale of prices fixed by the Committee is reasonable, but that the persons, firms, or bodies corporate; included in any list are not such as to secure an adequate and convenient supply of drugs, medicines, and appliances in any area, they may dispense with the necessity of the adoption of such system as aforesaid as respects that area and authorise the Committee to make such other arrangements as the Commissioners may approve;

(ii) Except as may be provided by regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, no arrangement shall be made by the Insurance Committee with a medical practitioner under which he is bound or agrees to supply drugs or medicine to any insured persons;

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(iii) Subject to the regulations made by the last foregoing proviso the regulations shall prohibit arrangements for the dispensing of medicines being made with persons other than persons, firms, or bodies corporate entitled to carry on the business of a chemist and druggist under the provisions of the Pharmacy Act, 1808, as amended by the Poisons and Pharmacy Act, 1908, who undertake that all medicines supplied by them to insured persons shall be dispensed either by or under the direct supervision of a registered pharmacist or by a person who, for three years immediately prior to the passing of this Act, has acted as a dispenser to a duly qualified medical practitioner or a public institution;

(iv) Nothing in this Act shall interfere with the rights and privileges conferred by the Apothecaries Act, 1815, upon any person qualified under that Act to act as an assistant to any apothecary in compounding and dispensing medicines.

(6) There shall in each year be paid to the Insurance Committee for each county or county borough out of moneys credited to a society which has members resident in the county or county borough such sum in respect of the medical benefit of such members and the cost of administration thereof as may be agreed between the society and committee, or, in default or agreement, may be determined by the Insurance Commissioners.
(7) If in any year the amount payable to an Insurance Committee in respect of all persons for the administration of whose medical benefit it is responsible is insufficient to meet the estimated expenditure thereon, the Committee may, through the Insurance Commissioners, transmit to the-Treasury and to the council of the county or county borough an account showing the amount so payable and the estimated expenditure, and the Treasury and the county council or the council of the county borough, may if they think fit and if satisfied that the amounts so payable and the proposed expenditure are reasonable and proper in the circumstances, sanction the expenditure.
(8) The Treasury and the council of the county or county borough sanctioning any such expenditure as aforesaid shall thereupon each be liable to make good, in the case of the Treasury out of moneys provided by Parliament, and in the case of the council of a county or county borough out of the county fund or borough fund or borough rate, as the case may be, one half of any sums so sanctioned by them and expended by the Insurance Committee on medical benefit in the course of the year in excess of the amounts so payable to the Insurance Committee as aforesaid.
LORD SANDHURST: I move, in paragraph (a) of subsection (2), to insert the words "duly qualified" before the words "medical practitioners." This is merely a drafting Amendment. As far as I have been able to see in every case in which "medical practitioner" finds a place in the Bill the words "duly qualified" appear. It so happens that in this

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particular paragraph that it is not so. I do not know whether that is the intention of the noble Viscount or not.
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 34, after the second ("of") insert ("duly qualified").—(Lord Sandhurst.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: It is clear that the subsection must be so read. The words suggested are not necessary.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE LORD BISHOP OF BANGOR THE LORD BISHOP OF BANGOR moved to add, at the end of paragraph (b) of subsection (2), the following proviso—"Provided that any person so removed shall have right of appeal to the General Council of Medical Education and Registration of the United Kingdom, who may, if they think fit, after due inquiry restore his name to the list." The right rev. Prelate said: I am sorry that an Amendment of this kind has been left to be moved by one who has no legal training or experience, but as there is no one more competent willing to fulfil the duty I must do the best I can. I wish it also to be understood that if I say anything savouring of distrust in the Commissioners created under this Act I am not referring to Sir Robert Morant, whom I hold in the highest honour, or any of the other gentlemen whose names have been given to us. I am referring rather to hypothetical appointments which may be made by this or any other Ministry succeeding them.
In making law I take it we ought to try to guard against possible as well as probable mischief. The noble Viscount in charge of the Bill said that it would be in the power of the Commissioners at any moment to strike a medical man off the panel and to ruin his professional prospects. The object of my Amendment is to give the unfortunate medical man in question such protection as may be afforded by an appeal to a legally constituted tribunal already in existence. And in moving this I claim, if I cannot have his support, at least the sympathy of the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack, who feels, as he well may, an honest and increasing satisfaction in the part taken by him in founding the Court of Criminal Appeal. The subsection which I wish to amend provides that where the Insurance Commissioners, after such
1020
inquiry as may be prescribed, are satisfied that a medical practitioner's continuance in the list would be prejudicial to the efficiency of the medical service of the insured, they may remove his name from the list.
Now let me give an example to your Lordships of the kind of case I have in mind, and which I desire to protect. A young doctor without money or interest, who has scraped up enough money to pass through the medical schools with credit, thinks he sees an opening in medical practice, and is beginning to make his way. Perhaps a hysterical woman—both doctors and clergymen, as your Lordships are aware, are exposed to this danger—brings a false accusation against him, and scandal arises. The case, under this Bill, is to be referred to the Insurance Commissioners. Now who are the men who would have to try the doctor, if not for his life, at least for that which to many men is dearer than life—namely, his character and professional prospects? They are an unspecified number of Commissioners, I suppose four or five, of whom one should be a medical practitioner, who may or may not be eminent in his profession. Of course, such a man would be highly respectable and honourable in his profession, but I doubt whether the emolument would be such as to tempt a man of first-class eminence to undertake the duty. Let me take a parallel supposition. I believe that Courts of Inquiry—at least, I gather so from what I have read occasionally in the newspapers—are occasionally held in the Army to inquire as to the fitness of some particular officer or other to command. Let us suppose that such a Court was to sit without an appeal, composed of five civilians taken from the Civil Service and one commissioned officer, who might be of any rank whatever in the Service. Would such a Court, acting without appeal, be very satisfactory for the purpose of deciding as to whether or not any officer in the Service was fit to hold his command?
Or, again, take a case which is perhaps more common. A young lieutenant is to be tried because of some error of judgment or miscalculation of the force of the tide or current, by which he loses the vessel under his command. Five men, none of whom knows more of navigation than can

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be obtained by taking an occasional run from here to Greenwich in a penny steamer, and one lieutenant, who may have been on the retired list, no one knows how long, are to decide the question as to whether that officer had fulfilled his duty or not. Lest any one should say the case is not parallel, let me remind your Lordships that the doctor I am supposing to be put on his trial can be tried equally for want of professional skill or for having made some fatal mistake in his treatment of a ease, as well as on account of such a scandal as I have suggested. Now let me go on. The Commissioners may hold an inquiry, and, if they think fit, may remove the man. They are not bound by the result of that inquiry. They may, indeed, act quite contrary to its findings if they like. Let me remind your Lordships of what took place in a Swansea case which occupied so much of your Lordships' time some while ago. There the Board of Education claimed, after holding an inquiry, the power of judging on other knowledge in their possession, and setting aside the findings of that inquiry. I appeal to those who sat in judgment on that occasion to say whether that is not a fair statement, whether that was not the very pleading urged—that the Department had a right to act on other knowledge, and so set aside the report of their own Commissioner. In that case there was an appeal to the High Court and to your Lordships' House. There was a great deal of popular enthusiasm and indignation, and sufficient money was subscribed to support that appeal. But look at the case I am quoting of the young doctor with no money, and perhaps with local feeling against him. The Commissioners may send down, not a Mr. Justice Hamilton, but some much less capable person, and then allow the man to be condemned and found guilty on insufficient evidence, or, if found not guilty, set aside, as in the Swansea case, the finding, acting on knowledge within their possession but of which the accused has not heard. In that way they may ruin the man. It may be said that what was done in the case of a school would never be done in the case of a person. But is that quite sure? I know something of inquiries in cases of local scandal. Public feeling sometimes condemns a man first and then insists that an acquittal is a failure of justice, and the pressure brought to bear on such a tribunal as the Commissioners would not be slight.
Now what is the Court to which I propose to give the right of appeal in such a case—the General Medical Council? This was established by Act of Parliament in 1858, and its constitution was enlarged and put on a more popular basis in 1886. The Act was brought in by the Party now in power. It was backed by Sir Lyon Playfair, Mr. Mundella, and the Lord Advocate. It provides that the constitution of the, Council should consist of five persons nominated by the King, on the advice of the Privy Council, one person to be nominated by the Royal College of Physicians, the Royal College of Surgeons, and a number of other Medical Colleges and Universities, three persons elected from time to time by the registered medical practitioners of England, one elected by the registered medical practitioners of Scotland, and one by the registered medical practitioners of Ireland. Is it not reasonable that a man condemned for misbehaviour or unskilfulness in the exercise of his profession by an unspecified number of Commissioners with only one professional member among them, whose name no one knows, sitting, certainly in the case of Wales, no one knows where, acting possibly upon private unsifted information, should be allowed to appeal to this august tribunal founded by Parliament for the protection, and, if need be, the correction of medical practitioners?
My Lords, I regret that some one better acquainted with law has not attempted to discharge this duty, but I have one qualification—my love to those whose cause I plead. Before I was called to my present office I was an ordinary common country parson, and as such I was in close association with the ordinary common country doctor. I know something of their kindness and self-denying labours. I have known them go out in all weathers amongst the suffering poor; I have known them while ministering to the suffering to relieve their poverty out of their own penury, finding often the poor have been unable to pay them anything. I know also that a measure is in contemplation to expel myself and the other Bishops from this House. If that time comes there will be no vote or speech of mine which I shall look back upon with more satisfaction than this attempt to obtain justice for those hard-working good men to whom the poor and those who work amongst them and for them owe so much.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 5, after ("list") insert ("Provided that any person so removed shall have right of appeal to the General Council of Medical Education and Registration of the United Kingdom who may if they think fit after due inquiry restore his name to the list").—(The Lord Bishop of Bangor.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: The right rev. Prelate has travelled far from the question of this Bill into a dim and dubious future into which I will not try to follow him. I come back to the rather prosaic question which we have to discuss, which is this. As the practice of friendly societies originally stood, and as this Bill might very well have stood, the friendly societies nominated the doctors whom they employed, and the patients went to the friendly society's doctor and got his advice. The doctors objected—and I am not at all complaining of them for it—to being left under the old practice. Under the scheme of the Bill as it now stands there is substituted a system under which every: doctor within a given area can get himself put on the panel subject to what is recognised on all hands to be a necessary check—a check which was necessary for this reason, that on the certificate of a doctor depends the paying of a good deal of money, and the doctor has the comfortable and uncomfortable position of having a duty to discharge to the State and at the same time a duty to discharge to his patient. This somewhat delicate question having to be considered from time to time, it was felt necessary to make some provision for revising the panel. I do not suppose it will often happen, but undoubtedly there will be cases in which it may happen, and it is one of those things which ought to be done with a good deal of local knowledge and also a knowledge of the working of this system. The Insurance Commissioners, after such an inquiry as may be prescribed, are to exercise the duty of revising the panel when that has to be done, and they are given power under Clause 66 to appoint a specially qualified referee to assist them in coming to their decision. I should have thought that was all that need be covered. I should have thought that was all that could possibly be wanted. What sort of body is the General Medical Council in a question of this kind? Something arises, it may be in a remote parish in Scotland, when; the facts are to be investigated, and where you have to send somebody down under Clause 66 to inquire into the circum-
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stances and report if there was matter or not matter for a body sitting in some central position to deal with at a distance. It is not as if it was a matter which could not be inquired into on the spot. The machinery which is here provided has been very carefully thought out and deliberately adopted. The provision is absolutely necessary for the protection of public moneys, and the Government could not possibly give way to the suggestion of the right rev. Prelate.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved, in paragraph (e) of subsection (2), after "which" ["to members of any friendly society which"], to insert the words "or a separate section of which." The noble Viscount said: This is a desirable improvement on the wording as it now stands. At the present time the right to have medical attendance for old men and persons chronically ill is not the same right as that of insured persons. We have thought it right to extend to these old people the privilege of getting medical attendance, and we propose to put in these words with the idea of meeting their case.
Amendment moved—
Page 18, line 21, after ("which") insert ("or a separate section of which").—( Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Moved, That Clause 15, as amended, be agreed to.—(Viscount Haldane.)
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, nothing I can say will influence the intention of the Government with regard to this clause, but before your Lordships part with it I desire to enter the strongest protest I can against the manner in which this clause has been inserted in the Bill and the position in which it leaves the matter. I do not believe, unless a special study has been made of it, that there are many men in this House who are aware of what the effect of this clause is, and I desire, if your Lordships will grant me two or three minutes, to state the position. There are some 14,000,000 people coming under this Bill. It is reckoned that there are about 15,000 doctors available to attend these 14,000,000 people, and if you divide the

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number of people to be attended by the number of available doctors you will find that each doctor will have nearly 1,000 patients to attend on. The average number of visits paid by the doctors of friendly societies to members of those organisations represents nine or ten a year to each member; and it is not unreasonable to estimate that the number of visits to be paid to each insured person under the Bill will represent an average of twenty annually, inasmuch as female patients—and the attendance on female lives is estimated by doctors variously at from three to five times that on male lives—are included and the lives generally will not represent picked lives. At the fixed fee of 4s. 6d. per patient a doctor would have to pay 20,000 visits a year in order to earn between £200 and £250 annually. It is a physical impossibility that the Bill can be carried out under those conditions either with due regard to attendance or with the possibility of keeping up the standard of a scientific profession or the supply in preparation for which a man has to spend five or six years of his life. In the bargains which have been made lately with the friendly societies and with other classes the subjects have been too much set on one side, and in the sudden changes in the Bill in the House of Commons it has not been generally appreciated by the public and hardly even by the medical profession how prodigious is the burden placed upon them and how impossible it is that the Bill can remain in its present condition. I know it is said that it is open to the Insurance Commissioners to take steps in this matter, but nobody knows better than the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill that their horizon must be limited by their purse and by the grants which come from the Government. I think it will be found that the Government have lighted a fire which they will not be able to extinguish, and by their procedure and by the denial to this House of the power of revision they will have contributed to a large extent towards making the operation of the Bill difficult and the recasting of certain clauses, of which this is one, imperative in the near future.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, in days gone past Governments have been accused of filling the butchers' shops with big blue flies and of many other things; but never before have I heard it suggested that the Government were, by a Bill they
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had introduced, likely to increase the amount of illness in the country. Yet what does the speech of the noble Viscount mean, if it does not mean that. He says there are nearly 15,000 doctors doing the medical work of the country.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I said 15,000 doctors were available for this particular purpose. As everybody knows, we have a much larger number on the Register, but of that large number some are in practice in London as specialists, some belong to the Army and the Navy, and some are attached directly to hospitals. The actual number estimated by the medical profession themselves as being available is about 15,000.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Yes; but, after all, people suffer independently of this Bill, and they will suffer, I hope, not more. I trust that in the end they will suffer less after the Bill. There are doctors enough, even with these things. The doctors who deal with this class of cases do so at very moderate rates of remuneration—much less than they will get under this Bill. Is it stated by the noble Viscount that this Bill is going to increase the number of patients so enormously that the supply of doctors will run out?
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: In regard to the London County Council, since children have been placed under public medical practitioners 90 per cent. have been found to be suffering from caries of the teeth and to require an amount of attention which they had never received before; and of course as soon as this Bill becomes law and when anybody may call in a doctor without having to pay for his visits many persons will ask for medical attendance who now go without it.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: No doubt it is true that in the schools, where there was no medical attendance or medical inspection at all practically until the other day, there is naturally more work to be done. But I cannot see why under this Bill people should unnecessarily when they are not ill send for a doctor, or how this Bill should make them ill. It may be there were cases before where they did not send for a doctor, and under this Bill the number of doctors employed will increase.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: The fees will not.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I may say I am engaged just now as Chairman of a Royal Commission, in an investigation which has brought to light the remarkable fact that doctors and the entries of men as medical students are diminishing, and it may be that the country is getting more healthy, but I cannot for the life of me see why or where the difficulty is likely to arise in getting sufficient doctors to do this work. At present the complaint coming before me is as to the extreme difficulty for the young doctor to secure a start. Now he will get on the panel and get a start off, and there will be plenty of work for him to do, and, if so, so much the better.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I am reluctant to trouble your Lordships again, but these arguments should not be allowed to go without a protest. Of course, you can increase the number of doctors indefinitely, but if you keep the fee at 4s. 6d. the additional doctors, instead of making a little over £200 a year, which in all conscience is small enough for the amount of work done, will have their remuneration reduced pro tanto. There is no question of raising the amount of each man. If you divide the work which one man can perform between two, he will get £100 a year instead of £200 a year; and I venture to say, with great respect to the noble Viscount, that the method by which he has attempted to defend these clauses proves more conclusively than anything with how little thought and with what a light heart the Government have gone into one of the most difficult and most serious questions that could possibly have been raised.
On Question, Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 16:
Administration of sanatorium benefit.
16.—(1) For the purpose of administering sanatorium benefit Insurance Committees shall make arrangements, to the satisfaction of the Insurance Commissioners,—

(a) with a view to providing treatment for insured persons suffering from tuberculosis or any other such disease as aforesaid in sanatoria and other institutions, with persons or local authorities (other than poor law authorities) having the management of sanatoria or other institutions approved by the Local Government Board, which treatment it shall be lawful
1028
for a local authority to provide as respects insured persons resident outside as well as respects those resident within their area; and

(b) with a view to providing treatment for such persons otherwise than in sanatoria or other institutions, with persons and local authorities (other than poor law authorities) undertaking such treatment in a manner approved by the Local Government Board, which treatment (including the appointment of officers for the purpose) it shall be lawful for a local authority, if so authorised by the Local Government Board, to undertake.

(2) The sums available for defraying the expenses of sanatorium benefit in each year shall be—

(a) one shilling and threepence in respect of each insured person resident in the county or county borough payable out of the funds out of which benefits are payable under this Part of this Act;

(b) one penny in respect of each such person payable out of moneys provided by Parliament;

Provided that the Insurance Commissioners may retain the whole or any part of the sums so payable out of moneys provided by Parliament to be applied in accordance with regulations made by the Commissioners for the purposes of research.
(3) An insured person shall not be entitled to sanatorium benefit unless the Insurance Committee recommends the case for such benefit.
(4) An Insurance Committee may, out of the sums available for defraying the expenses of sanatorium treatment, defray in whole or in part the expenses of the conveyance of an insured, person to or from any sanatorium or institution to which he may be sent for treatment therein, or may make advances for the purpose.
LORD TENTERDEN: I move to delete paragraph (b) of subsection (2), and I do so with the firm conviction that the majority of your Lordships are not in favour of this clause remaining part of the Bill. How the endowment of research ever came to be entered into to form part of an Insurance Bill is quite incomprehensible; but what is perfectly clear to every one is that the term "research" is a misnomer—a cloak to conceal the horrible practices of the inoculation and vivisection of living animals. I know I shall be told that research is nothing of the kind, and that it simply means that scientific research by doctors which has been proceeding for a number of years past. If that were so, my Lords, no one would welcome its endowment more than I should, and I should net be here to move this Amendment. But unfortunately this is not so. Research as practised now invariably means vivisection in its worst form.

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In support of what I am saying I will call your Lordships' attention to the remarks of Mr. McKenna, when he received a deputation of representatives of antivivisection societies on behalf of Mr. Lloyd George. He admitted that if the endowment of research were part of the National Insurance Bill it could not be hoped to exclude the inoculation, and not improbably, too, the vivisection of living animals. As another instance of the fact that research means what I have said it does, there is the fact that there exists a Research Defence Society. Now it is quite clear to anybody who thinks about the matter at all that there could not exist a Research. Defence Society unless there was something to hide and to defend. Therefore if it is necessary to organise a society to defend research there is some thing going on behind the curtain which the public is not allowed to see and not allowed to understand. In the face of all this, is it not perfectly clear, if this clause is allowed to remain part of the Bill, that hundreds of thousands of people will be compelled to subscribe to the £60,000 endowment for purposes which they hate and detest, when they would willingly give their money to prevent it instead.
Your Lordships must remember that this money is to come from all classes of people. You are taxing people who work very hard for their living and with whom every penny counts; and if this Bill passes your Lordships' House people are going to be compelled to subscribe to the endowment of research which include the vivisection and the inoculation of living animals when their whole spirit and mind revolt against the practice, and who no doubt, as I have said, would willingly subscribe money to prohibit any such practice throughout the nation. In 1910, out of 95,731 experiments, only 129 were seen by inspectors. From this it is clear that there is not even proper supervision, and what happened in the case of the experiments on the wretched animals which were not inspected no one knows. I should like to call your Lordships' attention to the admissions made by these very inspectors before the Royal Commission. They admitted that the experiments resulted in great and lingering suffering and sometimes acute pain for these poor defenceless animals—well, I will leave what they say to your Lordships' imagination. No real good has ever been obtained
1030
from this so-called research. If any good results had been obtained from it I might not be here to move this Amendment. The results have been invariably inaccurate, inconclusive, and contradictory. If research by torturing animals must be continued, then it is amply provided for by the laboratories which exist at the present moment, and it is unnecessary to put this imposition upon the ratepayers and compel them to provide a further large sum—as much as £60,000 a year—for a purpose which does not commend itself to them. I would remind your Lordships that whenever the public have known and have had explained to them what really went on under the name of research, they have one and all condemned these iniquitous practices. It is certain that had it been possible this Amendment would have been proposed in the House of Commons. Mr. Chancellor was ready to move it, but unfortunately things were rushed through at such a rate that he was unable to get a chance of bringing the matter forward; but in a very short time he collected the signatures of sixty-two Members of Parliament to a protest against this imposition, and that protest was signed by 100,000 people outside the House of Commons.
Let me mention to your Lordships a few of the associations that have passed resolutions against this. The London Liberal Federation, consisting exclusively of the most representative Liberal workers from all the London constituencies, passed a resolution asking for the exclusion of experiments on living animals; only four voted against it. The Women's Liberal Association passed a similar resolution unanimously. The Liberal Members of the House of Commons who moved Amendments received similar resolutions from Liberal Associations in many parts of the country. The Church Anti-Vivisection League, which has for its object the prohibition of the vivisection of living animals, of the inoculation of animals with diseases, and of the treatment of serums prepared from animals inoculated with diseases, ask your Lordships—
"to protect the people from their nominal representatives by exercising your Veto in respect of certain unstatesmanlike clauses in the National Insurance Bill."
They add—
"Our Empire owes its rise to our just treatment of the lower humanity; let us beware lest it owe its fall to our unjust treatment of the lower animal creation."

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They have passed a resolution embracing an Amendment to Clause 16 in somewhat similar terms to the one I am now moving. It reads—
"But none of the money so provided shall be used for experiments on living animals, or for providing buildings or apparatus for the purpose of such experiments."
By this it will be seen that I have the support of the Church, I do not say the whole Church; but in any case a very large section of the Church is dead against these practices.
If your Lordships allow this clause to pass you will be doing a great injustice to the people of this country. No doubt your Lordships remember the demonstration that took place lately in this city, when resolutions were passed at eight platforms protesting against the insertion of this clause in the Insurance Bill. That demonstration goes to prove what the feeling of the people is in regard to this matter. This is not a Party question, as I have already proved. It is one on which, fortunately, I have very large support on both sides in this House and also in the House of Commons. I maintain that if your Lordships allow this subsection to remain in the Insurance Bill, with which it has nothing whatever to do, it will be a disgrace to the nation, and not only will you perpetrate a cowardly act towards the whole animal kingdom but you will do a great injustice by taxation to a large number of your fellow-countrymen.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, lines 32 and 33, leave out paragraph (b).—(Lord Tenterden.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Strange to say, nowhere in this Bill is there a word about vivisection, nor has the provision to which my noble friend behind me has devoted so much attention anything to do with vivisection. The provision is that Parliament is to provide one penny in respect of each insured person towards the sums available for defraying the expenses of sanatorium benefit in each year. If this penny were struck out, the sanatoriums would be the first to suffer, and part of the fund for the treatment of consumptives would be gone; and why my noble friend should have moved to omit this paragraph I do not know. Lower down the word "research" occurs, and research is one of the subsidiary purposes to which what is
1032
left of this money can be devoted. There will probably be very little of it. But I need not say that, even on the most extravagant hypothesis, research includes a great deal more than vivisection, and if we are to be debarred from taking advantage of the enormous facilities which this Bill affords for pursuing the study of consumption, all I can say is a very great evil will be brought about. I do not pursue the other arguments which my noble friend has raised, but I might point out that this is obviously on the face of it dealing with a financial provision, a thing which is not considered to be within the competence of this House, and therefore the Amendment would be out of order. I rest my case, however, on the broad ground that it would be a disaster, for the other reason I have given, if the Amendment of my noble friend were carried.
LORD TENTERDEN: The noble Viscount has opposed my Amendment. I quite expected, knowing the sentiments he holds, that he would do so. But I have none the less brought the Amendment forward, because I am an ardent anti-vivisectionist, and as a protest on behalf of those anti-vivisection societies which I am here to represent to-day. I shall always endeavour to bring it forward whenever I have an opportunity. As to whether or not it has to do with vivisection, I think there is sufficient evidence to show that up to the present research has always included vivisection. If I am to understand from the noble Viscount that the £60,000 a year is to be devoted to the purposes of sanatoria and of ordinary scientific pursuits and investigations by doctors and to those purposes only, then I am entirely with him; but if not, then I put it to your Lordships that experiments upon living animals should be excluded from the Bill.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The Amendment in my name, to add at the end of subsection (2), after the word "research," the words "or of education," is a very small one, but I venture to hope it will have the sympathy and possibly the acceptance also of the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill. He let drop a phrase a few moments ago which showed that he had been studying this question. He said that one of the great things we are learning about all kinds of pulmonary disease is

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that if we are to get good results we must take it in hand early, and the great object of my Amendment is to provide that some part of the fund in the hand of the Insurance Commissioners may be used for the purpose of education on this matter. The National Association for the Prevention of Consumption, of which I happen to be chairman, has several exhibition caravans which go about to different centres of population for the purpose of educating the people in precautionary measures. I believe that under Clause 59 there is power given to the local health committees to expend money in the direction I have indicated, but it would be, I think, of great importance if we could appeal to the discretion of the central body instead of having to go to every local authority. The only object with which I have put down this Amendment to add the words "or of education" after "research" is to give the National Insurance Commissioners power, if they see fit—leaving it entirely to their discretion—to give small subsidies here and there for the purpose which I have endeavoured to describe.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 37, after ("research") insert ("or of education").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I have very great sympathy with what the noble Lord has said. The difficulty I feel about it is this. There will be a very small margin of money available for research, and if that margin may be devoted to education I am afraid research may suffer. The intention of the Bill was that education should be dealt with under Clause 59, which provides other machinery and other funds for the purpose. The educational objects which the noble Lord has in view should be attained in that way. I am afraid if we go beyond research here, the temptation would be to divert the very little money there is available out of this penny, which would be better devoted to the investigation of the causes of phthisis than anything else. On the whole I would ask the noble Lord not to press his Amendment. I have entirely the same object at heart as himself—education is most important—but, as I say, Clause 59 deals with that, and I am very anxious not to take any money away from the small amount that will be available for research.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD BYRON: The object of the proviso which I propose to add at the end of subsection (3), which I hope the noble Viscount will accept, is to enable a workman who cannot pay for himself in the hospital but who is insured to go to such an institution on the recommendation of the medical man, by which he will avoid all stigma of charity. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has promised that all insured persons shall receive free medical attendance. It is quite clear that a man falling from a scaffold or a man who is run over by a cart and seriously injured—as I recently witnessed in Essex—has not time to go before a health board, and it seems to me it is necessary in such cases that he should get the quickest certificate he can to enable him to go to the best hospital. I hope, therefore, that the noble Viscount will see his way to accept the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 22, line 40, after ("benefit") insert ("Provided that where a duly qualified member of the Medical Staff of any such hospital as aforesaid certifies that an insured person is in urgent need of admission to such hospital, such certificate shall have the same validity so far as regards the admission and subsequent treatment of such person, as a recommendation by the local Health Committee").—(Lord Byron.)
LORD SANDHURST: I do not know what the noble Viscount will say, but I think I can assure the noble Lord that his Amendment is hardly necessary, for this reason. If a person meets with an accident, either through falling from a scaffold or being run over by a motor car, all that is necessary is for him to be taken to the hospital in a cab by the first passerby and he will receive the most instant attention and all the care that it is possible to give him.
LORD BYRON: Then it goes under the name of charity.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: What the noble Lord (Lord Sandhurst) has just said represents my view entirely. I cannot see what legal effect the Amendment would have if it were inserted. We are not exercising jurisdiction in this Bill over hospitals, and, unless we are, what meaning can possibly attach to the words, "such certificates shall have the same validity so far as regards the admission and subsequent treatment of such person

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as a recommendation by the local health committee." This Amendment would be in place if the rest of the Amendments of the noble Lord had been accepted by the House, but as they have gone out I cannot attach any legal effect to these words and I think they are objectionable.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 16 agreed to.
Clause 17 agreed to.
Clause 18:
Administration of maternity benefit.
18.—(1) Where the mother of the child is herself an insured person, and is not the wife or, in the case of a posthumous child, the widow of an insured person, maternity benefit shall be treated as a benefit for her and shall be administered in cash or otherwise by the approved society of which she is a member, or if she is not a member of any society by the Insurance Committee: in any other case the benefit shall be treated as a benefit for her husband and shall be administered in cash or otherwise by the approved society of which he is a member, or if he is not a member of any such society by the Insurance Committee, and shall be payable in respect of a posthumous child as if the husband were still alive:
Provided always that the mother shall decide whether she shall be attended by a duly qualified medical practitioner or by a duly certified midwife, and shall have free choice in the selection of such practitioner or midwife.
(2) In deciding whether or not they shall make an order under the Bastardy Laws Amendment Act, 1872, for the payment of the expenses incidental to the birth of a child, the justices shall not take into consideration the fact that the mother of the child is entitled to receive maternity benefit under this Part of the Act.
LORD SANDHURST LORD SANDHURST moved to add to the proviso at the end of subsection (1) the words "and the regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners shall provide for the payment of a fee to any medical practitioner who may be summoned on the advice of a midwife to render assistance in a case of emergency." The noble Lord said: This Amendment deals with cases where a midwife is obliged by the law as it stands to call in medical assistance. That means that a fee has to be paid to the man so called in. This fee, I understand, is sometimes paid by what is called the Supervising Committee of the Midwives' Board, and is recovered or not as the case may be. It does happen I am told, that very often the midwife herself pays the fee and does not get it back. As we know, there is a very large body of mid-
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Wives—I think there are some 30,000 enrolled—and it seems to me a hardship that they should be out of pocket in this way. I do not know whether my noble friend can accept my Amendment, or whether he feels inclined to put in some words of his own to meet the case.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 11, after ("midwife") insert ("and the regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners shall provide for the payment of a fee to any medical practitioner who may be summoned on the advice of a midwife to render assistance in a case of emergency").—(Lord Sandhurst.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: If my noble friend will take the Amendment in a slightly different form, I can accept it. I propose myself to move these words: after "midwife," insert "but if, in the case of a midwife being selected, a duly qualified medical practitioner is subsequently summoned in pursuance of the rules made under the Midwives Act, 1902, the prescribed fee shall, subject to the regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, be recoverable as part of the maternity benefit." That will meet my noble friend, and I think it is a better form.
LORD SANDHURST: Yes. I beg to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
Clause 18, page 24, line 11, after ("midwife") insert ("but if, in the case of a midwife being selected, a duly qualified medical practitioner is subsequently summoned in pursuance of the rules made under the Midwives Act, 1902, the prescribed fee shall, subject to the regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, be recoverable as part of the maternity benefit").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 18, as amended, agreed to.
LORD SANDHURST: I beg to move, after Clause 18, the new clause standing in my name. Its object is to secure to the wife that the maternity benefit where paid to the husband shall be secured to her. It is possible that some husbands might get hold of the money and not put it to

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the use intended. It is not difficult to imagine a case where, if the money got into the hands of a very bad man, it might be squandered in drink and the wife thereby deprived of the benefit. I hope my noble friend will see his way to accept this clause.
Amendment moved—
Insert the following new clause:
(". Where under the immediately foregoing section, which relates to the administration of maternity benefit, of this Act maternity benefit is given or paid to the husband, it shall be the duty of the husband to make adequate provision to the best of his power for the maintenance and care of his wife during her confinement, and for a period of four weeks after her delivery, and if he neglects or refuses to do so he shall be liable upon summary conviction to imprisonment, with, or without hard labour, for any term not exceeding one month").—(Lord Sandhurst.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I again agree with my noble friend. I think that what he proposes is right. But there may be other legal liabilities which ought to be saved, and therefore I would propose to introduce this clause with the words, "Without prejudice to any other legal liability." With the addition of those words, I can accept his Amendment.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Might I suggest that as this only refers to one clause, Clause 18, it would be better to put it into that clause at the end, instead of making a new clause of it and so causing a renumbering of the clauses throughout the subsequent pages of the Bill.
THE LORD CHAIRMAN: Your Lordships have passed Clause 18, and what the noble Lord now suggests can only be done on the Report stage.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I suggest that we take it as it is, and then it can be dealt with on Report.
On Question, Amendment agreed to, with the addition of the words at the beginning of the proposed new clause, "Without prejudice to any other legal liability."
Clause 19 agreed to.
Clause 20:
Power to approved societies to subscribe to hospitals, &c.
20. It shall be lawful for an approved society or Insurance Committee to grant such subscriptions or donations as it may think fit to hospitals and other charitable institutions, or for the support of district nurses, and to appoint nurses for the purpose of visiting and nursing insured persons, and any sums so expended shall be treated as expenditure on such benefits under this Part of this Act as may be prescribed.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: This may be described almost as a drafting Amendment. I do not know whether the noble Viscount is willing to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 24, line 29, after ("hospitals") insert ("dispensaries").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Yes, I accept it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 20, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 21:
Power of councils of boroughs and districts to contribute to certain expenditure on medical and sanatorium benefits.
21. The council of any borough or urban or rural district may agree with the council of the county in which the borough or district is situate to repay to the latter council the whole or any part of the sums payable by that council in accordance with the provisions of this Part of this Act towards the excess expenditure on medical or sanatorium benefit so far as such excess is properly attributable to the borough or district, and any sums payable by the council of the borough or district in pursuance of such an agreement shall be payable in the case of a borough out of the borough fund or borough rate, and in any other case as part of the general expenses incurred by the council in the execution of the Public Health Acts.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: May I ask a question on this clause? This is one of those unfortunate clauses that were not in the Bill as originally introduced, and it has never been discussed at any stage, as I understand, in another place. There is a serious pecuniary difficulty in regard to this clause, and also a serious departure from ordinary practice. I understand—in fact I am certain—that it affects Scotland as well as England, because it is one of those clauses applied to Scotland by Clause 80 of the Bill. It is entirely contrary to principles that Parliament has

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hitherto adopted in regard to cases where powers are conferred on county councils with regard to non-county boroughs. There are, of course, cases in England and Scotland where both county councils and borough councils are empowered to perform the same class of duties. The larger non-county boroughs are educational authorities, and they are out of the county for the purpose of the education rate. The point here is that this clause gives a power, and a very reasonable and proper power, to a non-county borough to make special arrangements with the county council for the performance of certain duties. If the non-county borough is liberally inclined, it may want to increase the medical man's fee, and to do certain things to secure better services within its own bounds; but if it once takes advantage of this clause, as the Bill stands, I am afraid it runs the risk of having to pay twice over, because it will not only have to pay the sum it agreed with the county council to pay, but it will also be liable to be rated in respect of the duty. I am sure the noble Viscount understands the point, and I will not elaborate it. I cannot move to omit the clause, because that would do great harm; but if the noble Viscount, either at this stage or a subsequent stage, would take this addition to the clause I think it would meet the case—namely, "A county council shall not raise any sum on account of any expenditure incurred by them under this Part of this Act within any borough or urban or rural district the council of which has entered into an agreement in pursuance of this section during the continuance of such agreement." The notice was so short that I am sorry I was not able to put these words on the Paper.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 5, after ("Acts") insert ("A county council shall not raise any sum on account of any expenditure incurred by them under this Part of the Act within any borough or urban or rural district the council of which has entered into an agreement in pursuance of this section during the continuance of such agreement.")—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I think there is a great deal in what the noble Lord says. It is plain in a case of this kind that if a borough, not being a county borough, is desirous of having a special rate for special medical benefit or sanatorium assistance, it should be free to enter into an agreement to that effect, and it
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is also clear that it should not be rated by the county council in respect of it. Of course, there is an alternative method—that is, that it may be rated on paying the contribution—but it is probably simpler to have the machinery which the noble Lord proposes, and therefore I accept his Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 21, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 22 agreed to.
Clause 23:
Power of societies to undertake business under Part I.
23.—(1) It shall be lawful for any body of persons, corporate or unincorporate, established before the passing of this Act which is desirous of transacting insurance business under this Part of this Act, or of making any amendments in its constitution, or administration, or contributions, or benefits, or otherwise which may be necessary or expedient in consequence of the passing of this Act, notwithstanding anything in the provisions of the Acts under which it is established or registered or carried on, or of its memorandum or articles of association, rules, or other instrument governing its constitution or defining its objects, to do all such acts and things (including the establishment of a separate section as aforesaid) as may be necessary for the purpose of enabling the body to undertake the transaction of such business as soon as may be after the passing of this Act and, if the instrument regulating the constitution of the body contains provision s requiring any interval to elapse before action can be taken, such provisions shall not apply to action taken for the purposes aforesaid.
(2) Subsections (3) and (4) of section seventy of the Friendly Societies Act, 1896, shall not apply to any resolutions for amalgamation or transfer of engagements when the resolution is made expressly for the purposes of this Part of this Act.
(3) This section shall come into operation on the passing of this Act and shall not continue in force beyond the expiration of one year from the commencement of this Act.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to add at the end of the clause the words in his Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 38, after ("Act") insert ("except so far as may be necessary to enable a society which has undertaken the transaction of insurance business under this Part of this Act to continue to transact such business").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 23, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 24 to 28 agreed to.
Clause 29:
Admission of insured persons to membership in approved societies.
29.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, any insured person and any person entitled to become an insured person may apply to an approved society for membership therein.
(2) An approved society shall be entitled, in accordance with its rules, to admit or reject any such applicant, or to expel any of its members being insured persons: Provided that no such application shall be refused solely on the ground of the age of the applicant.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to add a new subsection to the clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 30, line 26, after ("applicant") insert the following new subsection:
(3) This section shall come into operation on the passing of this Act.—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 30 to 36 agreed to.
Clause 37:
Amendments moved—
Page 35, line 36, after ("branch") insert ("by the branch").
Page 37, line 5, leave out ("approved") and insert ("sanctioned").—Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 37, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 38:
Amendments moved—
Page 39, line 11, leave out ("or") and insert ("in the case of an association and to")
Page 39, line 12, after ("borough") insert ("in the case of a group")
Page 39, line 13, leave out ("as the case may require")
Page 39, line 21, after ("branches") insert ("except those requiring the approval of a society to a scheme prepared by a branch as to the distribution of a surplus or the making good of a deficiency").
Page 40, line 10, leave out ("in whole or in part") and insert ("any part of").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 38, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 39 to 42 agreed to.
Clause 43:
Provisions as to special classes of insured persons.
43.—(1) Where a woman who has before marriage been an insured person marries, she shall be suspended from receiving the ordinary benefits under this Part of this Act until the death of her husband, and if she is a member of an approved society one-third of her transfer value shall be carried to a separate account called the married women's suspense account, but if at any time after the death of her husband she becomes an employed contributor, the period between her marriage and the expiration of one month from the death of her husband shall be disregarded for the purpose of reckoning arrears, and there shall be transferred from the married women's suspense account to the society of which she is a member the proper reserve value calculated according to tables to be prepared by the Insurance Commissioners:
Provided that where a woman who has been employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act before marriage, proves that she continues to be so employed after marriage, she shall not be So suspended so long as she continues to be so employed, and that where a married woman so suspended from the ordinary benefits becomes employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act before the death of her husband, contributions shall thereupon again become payable in respect of her, and she shall cease to be suspended from receiving the ordinary benefits, but, subject to regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, she shall for the purposes of those benefits be treated as if she had not previously been an insured person.
(2) Where a married woman being a member of an approved society is so suspended from the ordinary benefits as aforesaid, she may, if she so elects within one month after such suspension, or, subject to the consent of the society, after the expiration of that month, and notwithstanding that she is not engaged in any regular occupation, become whilst so suspended a voluntary contributor, subject to the following modifications, but not otherwise:—

(a) The rate of contributions payable by her shall be threepence a week;

(b) The benefits to which she shall be entitled shall be—

(i) medical benefit; and

(ii) sickness benefit and disablement benefit at the rates and subject to the conditions specified in Table D of Part I of the Fourth Schedule to this Act;

(c) No part of her contributions shall be retained by the Insurance Commissioners for the purpose of discharging their liabilities to approved societies in respect of the reserve values created under this Act:

Provided that where a married woman elects not to become such a voluntary contributor she shall be entitled to have a sum equal to the remaining two-thirds of her transfer value applied in accordance with regulations of the Insurance Commissioners towards the payment of any of the benefits specified in Part III of the Fourth Schedule to this Act until the same is exhausted, except that where a reserve value was credited to the society in respect of such woman at the date of her entrance into insurance so much of such sum

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as aforesaid as may be prescribed shall not be so applied but shall be written off the amount of the reserve values credited to the society.
(3) Where the husband of a married woman who has been so suspended from ordinary benefits as aforesaid and who is a member of an approved society dies, she may, if she is qualified to become a voluntary contributor, and elects to do so within one month after the death of her husband, become an ordinary voluntary contributor paying contributions at the rate which would have been applicable to the case had she become such a contributor at the date of her entry into insurance:
Provided that she may, whether or not so qualified, if she so elects within one month after the death of her husband, continue to be or become a voluntary contributor on the same terms and subject to the same conditions as above provided as respects married women.
In either such case there shall be transferred from the married women's suspense account to the society the proper reserve value calculated as aforesaid.
(4) Where a married woman who was at the date of her marriage a deposit contributor is by virtue of this section suspended from the ordinary benefits under this Part of this Act two-thirds of the sum standing to her credit in the Post Office fund shall be applied in accordance with the regulations of the Insurance Commissioners towards the payment of any of the benefits specified in Part III of the Fourth Schedule to this Act until the same is exhausted.
(5) Where a woman who was a married woman at the commencement of this Act at any time subsequently either before or within one year after the death of her husband becomes an employed contributor and a member of an approved society, she shall be entitled to full benefits notwithstanding that at the time of so becoming she is over the age of sixteen.
(6) Where any arrears of contributions have accrued due in respect of a married woman during coverture such arrears shall, on the death of her husband, be disregarded and she shall be thenceforth entitled to benefits as if such arrears had never accrued due.
(7) Except as provided by this section a married woman shall not be entitled to become a voluntary contributor, and if a woman is before marriage a voluntary contributor she shall on marriage not be entitled to continue to be such a contributor.
(8) If a woman, whilst a voluntary contributor at such reduced rates of benefit as are provided by this section, becomes employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act she shall be entitled to a certificate (to be granted in manner herein-before provided) exempting her from liability to become an employed contributor so, however, that such exemption shall not exempt the employer from his liability to pay contributions in respect of her, or deprive him of his right to recover such part of those contributions as is payable on her behalf, but of each weekly contribution so paid by the employer threepence shall be treated as her contribution as a voluntary contributor and the balance shall be applied for her benefit in such manner as the society may determine.
(9) If at any time the married women's suspense account is insufficient to meet the liabilities imposed on it by this section the deficiency shall
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be made good out of the sums retained by the Insurance Commissioners for discharging their liabilities in respect of the reserve values created by this Act.
(10) Transfer value for the purposes of this section shall be calculated in such manner as the Insurance Commissioners may prescribe.
(11) Where a woman is a member of an approved society at the time when she is entitled to exercise an option under this section, it shall be the duty of the society to give her full information as to the nature of her rights.
(12) Where a deficiency has been found in respect of the society or branch of which a woman is a member at a valuation previous to the time when she became suspended from ordinary benefits under this Part of this Act, and that deficiency has not been made good at the time of her marriage, or where a woman is in arrears at that time, such adjustments in the sums transferred to the married women's suspense account, and in the balance of her transfer value, and in the rates of benefit to which she is entitled under this section, shall be made as the Insurance Commissioners may prescribe.
(13) Save as aforesaid the provisions of this Part of this Act shall apply to a woman who has been married, both during and after coverture, in like mailer as if she had never been married.
(14) This section shall apply in the case of a woman whose marriage has been dissolved or annulled, or who has for a period of not less than two years been actually separated from or deserted by her husband, as if her husband had died at the date at which such dissolution or annulment took effect, or, as the case may require, at the expiration of such period of two years.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to leave out "over the age of sixteen" at the end of subsection (5), and to insert "of the age of seventeen or upwards."
Amendment moved—
Page 45, line 22, leave out ("over the age of sixteen") and insert ("of the age of seventeen or upwards").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD SANDHURST LORD SANDHURST moved to omit from the middle of subsection (14) the words "two years," and to insert "twelve months." The noble Lord also had an Amendment on the Paper to add to the clause the following new subsection, "(15) This section shall apply in the case of a woman whose husband has been sentenced to be kept in penal servitude or to be imprisoned for a term of twelve months or longer as though her husband had died on the date on which he was sentenced." He said, in moving the first Amendment: The object of this Amendment is to shorten the period. Two years seems to me an unnecessarily long time, and I think it would be met by twelve months.
Amendment moved—
Page 46, line 34, leave out ("two years") and insert ("twelve months").—(Lord Sandhurst.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I hope my noble friend will not press this Amendment. We think that one year is not long enough, and that two years should be the minimum.
LORD SANDHURST: I beg to withdraw the Amendment; the other standing in my name is consequential.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 44:
Special provisions as to aliens.
44.—(1) This Part of this Act shall apply to persons over the age of sixteen at the date of entry into insurance who are not British subjects, subject to the following modifications:—

(a) No such person shall be qualified to become a member of an approved society for the purposes of this Part of this Act except upon the terms and subject to the conditions hereinafter mentioned;

(b) No part of the benefits to which such persons may become entitled shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament;

(c) The rate of sickness, disablement, and maternity benefit shall be reduced, in the case of men, to seven-ninths or in the case of women to three-quarters, of the to which they would otherwise be entitled under this Part of this Act;

(d) No part of the sums payable in respect of such persons for medical benefit and sanatorium benefit or towards the expenses of administration of benefits shall in the case of such persons be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament.

(2) Where such a person becomes a member of an approved society the following provisions shall have effect:—

(i) The contributions payable by or in respect of such person shall be credited to the society;

(ii) The society shall in each year pay to the Insurance Committee the sums payable in respect of such person for medical benefit and sanatorium benefit;

(iii) The rate and conditions of sickness benefit, and disablement benefit, and maternity benefit shall be such as may be determined by the society;

(iv) Such person shall not be deemed to have joined an approved society for the purposes of the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to reserve values, and no part of the contributions of such person shall be retained by the Insurance Commissioners towards the discharge of their liabilities in respect of reserve values.

(3) A woman who, having been a British subject before marriage, has ceased to be a British subject by reason of marriage with a person not being a British subject, shall not be subject to the provisions of this section if her husband is dead, or the marriage has been dissolved or annulled, or she has for a period of not less than two years been actually separated from or deserted by her husband.
(4) This section shall not apply to any person who on the fourth day of May nineteen hundred and eleven, was a member of a society which, or a separate section of which, becomes an approved society, and had then been resident in the United Kingdom for five years or upwards, or to any person who is transferred to an approved society or the Post Office fund in pursuance of an arrangement with the Government of any foreign State.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to leave out "over the age of sixteen" at the beginning of the clause, and to insert "of the age of seventeen or upwards."
Amendment moved—
Page 47, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("over the age of sixteen") and insert ("of the age of seventeen or upwards").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to amend paragraph (c) of subsection (1) by inserting, after "shall," the words "as respects a deposit contributor."
Amendment moved—
Page 47, line 12, after ("shall") insert ("as respects a deposit contributor").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved
Page 47, line 26, after ("committee") insert ("the whole of").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 44, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 45:
Special provisions with regard to persons in the naval and military service of the Crown.
45.—(1) For the purpose of providing seamen, marines, and soldiers with such benefits during their term of service and after their return to civil life as are hereinafter in this section mentioned, there shall be deducted from the pay of every seaman and marine within the meaning of the Naval and Marine Pay and Pensions Act, 1865, and of every soldier of the regular forces (other than soldiers of His Majesty's Indian Forces, the Royal Malta Artillery and native soldiers of any regiment raised outside the United

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Kingdom), the sum of one penny halfpenny a week, and there shall be contributed by the Admiralty and the Army Council respectively, out of moneys provided by Parliament for navy and army services, in respect of every such seaman, marine, and soldier who has joined an approved society in the manner hereafter mentioned the sum of one penny halfpenny per week, and in respect of every other such seaman, marine, and soldier such sum per week as may be prescribed:
Provided that no such deduction shall be made from the pay of a seaman, marine, or soldier who has completed the period of his first engagement and has re-engaged for pension unless he so elects within the prescribed time, and that no contribution shall be made by the Admiralty or Army Council in respect of any week in respect of which such a deduction is not made.
(2) A seaman, marine, or soldier—

(a) who was at the date of his entry for enlistment an insured person and had joined and was at that date a member of an approved society; or

(b) who within six months from the date of his entry or enlistment, or, in the case of a seaman, marine, or soldier serving at the commencement of this Act, within six months after the commencement of this Act, or within such longer period as may be prescribed, joins an approved society for the purposes of this Part of this Act;

shall for the purposes of this Part of this Act be treated as if he were an employed contributor, subject, until his discharge, to the following modifications:—

(i) The employed rate shall be three pence, and the deductions made from his pay and the contributions made in respect of him by the Admiralty or Army Council shall be treated as the contributions paid in respect of him;

(ii) He shall not be entitled to medical benefit, sanatorium benefit, sickness benefit, or disablement benefit;

(iii) Maternity benefit shall be payable notwithstanding that both he and his wife are resident outside the United Kingdom at the date of the confinement, and the society may arrange with the Admiralty or Army Council for the administration of the benefit through the Admiralty or Army Council;

(iv) The sum to be retained out of each weekly contribution by the Insurance Commissioners towards the discharge of their liabilities in respect of reserve values shall be one penny, and the remaining five-ninths of a penny shall he paid out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund hereinafter constituted.

(3) With respect to seamen, marines, and soldiers who have not joined an approved society as aforesaid, the following provisions shall have effect:—

(a) The sums so deducted and the contributions so made as aforesaid in respect of such men shall be paid into the National Health Insurance Fund, and out of such sums there shall be retained by the Insurance Commissioners towards discharging their liabilities in respect of
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the reserve values created under this Part of this Act the like amount as if such men were members of approved societies and the balance shall be credited to a special fund to be called the Navy and Army Insurance Fund:

(b) There shall also be paid into the Navy and Army Insurance Fund in each year out of moneys provided by Parliament a sum equal to two-ninths of the amount, calculated in the prescribed manner which would have been payable in that year in respect of medical sanatorium sickness and disablement benefits (including expenses of administration) had all seamen, marines, and soldiers from whose pay deductions are made under this section been members of approved societies and entitled to such benefits as employed contributors:

(c) The weekly contributions to be made by the Admiralty and Army Council in respect of such men shall be such as may-from time to time be required to keep the Navy and Army Insurance Fund solvent:

(d) If any such man was at the date of his entry or enlistment a deposit contributor he shall, for the purpose of dealings with the sum standing to his credit in the Post Office fund, be treated as if the Navy and Army Insurance Fund had been an approved society, and he had at the date of his entry or enlistment become a member of that society:

(e) In the case of a seaman, marine, or soldier serving at the commencement of this Act there shall be credited to the Navy and Army Insurance Fund such reserve value as would have been credited to an approved society had he at that date become a member of the society as an employed contributor: Provided that no such reserve value shall be credited to that fund if at the date aforesaid he had completed the period of his first engagement and had re-engaged for pension, unless he elects to have deductions made from his pay or unlesss, not having so elected, he becomes on discharge entitled to benefits payable out of that fund as hereinafter mentioned:

(f) Every such man shall until discharged be entitled to maternity benefit payable out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund, and shall be entitled to such benefit notwithstanding that both he and his wife are at the date of the confinement resident outside the United Kingdom, and the benefit shall be administered by the Admiralty and Army Council either directly or through Insurance Committees:

(g) On the discharge of a seaman, marine, or soldier from whose pay deductions have been made and continue to be made up to the date of his discharge there shall be debited to the Navy and Army Insurance Fund, and if he becomes a member of an approved society within the prescribed time from his discharge, there shall be credited to that society, or if he does not become a member of such a society within the prescribed time from his discharge, there shall, unless he

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becomes entitled to benefits out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund as hereinafter mentioned, be carried to his credit in the Post Office fund the transfer value which would have been payable in respect of him had be been a member of an approved society throughout his period of service, or in the case of a man serving at the date of the commencement of this Act since that date, and if he becomes a deposit contributor, so much of the reserve value, if any, credited to the Navy and Army Insurance Fund in respect of him shall be cancelled as would have been cancelled had he been transferred from an approved society to the Post Office fund:

(h) A man discharged from service as a seaman, marine, or soldier who proves that the state of his health is such that he cannot obtain admission to an approved society may, if he so elects, oil making application to the Insurance Commissioners in the prescribed manner within three months of his discharge, or such longer time as may be prescribed, become, subject to regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners after consultation with the Admiralty and Army Council, entitled to benefits (other than additional benefits) provided under this Part of this Act at the full rate, the cost of which benefits shall be payable out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund, and such benefits shall be administered by Insurance Committees or otherwise in such manner as may be prescribed by such regulations as aforesaid, and any contributions paid over this Part of this Act by or in respect of him shall be paid into that fund:

Provided that—

(i) no deduction from benefits shall be made on account of any pension to which a man may be entitled:

(ii) the rate of sickness benefit shall be reduced, in the case of a man who entered into insurance when over the age of sixteen or who is in arrears, to the like extent as it would be reduced had he been an employed contributor and a member of an approved society who entered into insurance at the like age or who is in arrears to the like extent, so however that the rate of sickness benefit shall in no case be reduced below five shillings a week;

(iii) there shall in each year be repaid to the Navy and Army Insurancse Fund, out of moneys provided by Parliament, a sum equal to two-ninths of the amount expended out of the fund on such benefits as aforesaid, including the expenses of administration;

(iv) if a man who is so entitled to benefits payable out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund at any time becomes a member of an approved society for the purposes of this Part of this Act he shall cease to be
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entitled to benefits payable out of that fund, and there shall be debited to that fund and credited to such society the transfer value which would have been so debited and credited if he had been at that time transferred from one approved society to another approved society.

(4) In the application of this Part of this Act to a man who is or has been a seaman, marine, or soldier, and to whom this section applies—

(i) the date of his entry or enlistment as a seaman, marine, or soldier, or, if he was serving at the commencement of this Act, the date of that commencement shall, unless he was an insured person at the date of his entry or enlistment be treated as the date of his entry into insurance;

(ii) deductions from pay, with the corresponding contributions made by the Admiralty and Army Council, shall be treated as payments of contributions at the employed rate for the purpose of reckoning the number of contributions made in respect of him, arrears, and transfer value, and for the purpose of qualifications for becoming a voluntary contributor;

(iii) a seaman, marine, or soldier during his term of service shall, if he has joined an approved society as aforesaid before his entry or enlistment, be deemed to reside in that part of the United Kingdom in which he resided immediately before his entry or enlistment, or, if after his entry or enlistment, in the part of the United Kingdom in which the registered office or other principal place of business of the society or branch which he has joined is situate, and in any other ease in England, and all persons entitled to benefits payable out of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund shall be deemed to reside in England.

(5) Discharge shall in the case of a seaman, marine, or soldier who on the completion of any term of service is transferred to a reserve include such transfer.
(6) This section shall not apply to a seaman, marine, or soldier who entered or enlisted before the age of sixteen until he attains that age, and on attaining that age shall apply to him as if he had entered or enlisted at the time when he attained that age.
(7) The foregoing provisions of this section shall, subject to such adaptations and modifications as may be prescribed, apply to men belonging to the Naval Reserves when employed on service during war or any emergency, and to men of the Army Reserve when called out on permanent service, and to men of the Territorial Force when called out on embodiment, but, except as aforesaid, shall not apply to any such men.
(8) Where a man of the Naval Reserves, the Army Reserve, or the Territorial Force is being trained and is in receipt of pay out of the moneys provided by Parliament for Navy or Army services, he shall for the purposes of this Part of this Act be deemed whilst so engaged to be in the employment of the Crown.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to leave out "over the age of sixteen" from proviso (ii) of subsection (3), and to insert "of the age of seventeen or upwards."
Amendment moved—
Page 52, line 10, leave out ("over the age of sixteen") and insert ("of the age of seventeen or upwards").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to omit "engaged to be in the" from the end of the clause (the last words but four), and to substitute the words in his Amendment. The noble Viscount said: The object of this and the next Amendment is this. A person may go out to train with the Territorial Force who would, in the ordinary case, come under the insurance clause; but it seems very absurd to apply the insurance clause to a man who was not immediately before the training an insured person, and might be a man in receipt of £500 a year. We do not want such men as those to come under the insurance clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 3, leave out ("engaged, to be in the") and insert ("training, to be employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act and to be in the sole").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE then moved to add a new proviso at the end of the clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 4, after ("Crown") insert ("Provided that this subsection shall not apply to a man who was not immediately before the training an insured person, except in such cases and under such circumstances as may be specified in a special order made by the Insurance Commissioners").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 45, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 46:
Amendment moved—
Page 54, line 39, leave out ("he") and insert ("the employer").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 46, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 47:
Special provisions as to the mercantile marine.
47. In the application of this Part of this Act to masters, seamen, and apprentices to the sea service and the sea fishing service the following provisions shall have effect:—

(1) Neither sickness benefit nor disablement benefit shall be paid to a master, seaman, or apprentice suffering from any disease or disablement in respect of any period during which the owner of the ship is under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, as amended by any subsequent enactment or otherwise, liable to defray the expense of the necessary surgical and medical advice and attendance and medicine, and of his maintenance, but for the purpose of calculating the rate and duration of sickness benefit such benefit shall be deemed to have been paid from the commencement of the disease or disablement until the determination of such liability as aforesaid, and he shall not be entitled to medical benefit during such period:

(2) In the case of masters, seamen, and apprentices serving on foreign-going ships or ships engaged in regular trade on foreign stations, the employed rate and the employers' contributions shall each be reduced by one penny a week and every four weekly contributions paid in any calendar year by a master, seaman, or apprentice whilst serving on such a ship shall, for the purposes of determining the number of contributions to be paid by him in that year and for the purposes of calculating arrears, be treated as five such contributions:

Provided that—

(a) nothing in this provision shall affect the number of employees contributions to be paid in respect of such a master, seaman, or apprentice but no employer's contributions paid in respect of any week in respect of which no contribution is payable by the master, seaman, or apprentice shall be taken into account in reckoning the amount of his arrears;

(b) there shall be credited to the approved society of which the master, seaman, or apprentice is a member, or if he is a deposit contributor to his account in the Post Office fund, a sum equal to two-fifths of the amount of the contributions actually paid in respect of him, and an equal sum shall be treated as having been expended on sickness benefit, and the proper proportion thereof shall accordingly be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament:

(3) A master, seaman, or apprentice who is neither domiciled nor has a place of residence in the United Kingdom shall not be deemed to be employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act, but the employer shall be liable to pay the same contributions in respect of him as would otherwise have been payable by him as employer's contributions, except in eases

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where the ship is engaged in regular trade on foreign stations:
(4) The Board of Trade shall, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, cause a society to be formed, to be called the Seamen's National Insurance Society, of which any masters, seamen, and apprentices to the sea service and the sea fishing service who are employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act shall be entitled to become members, but nothing in this section shall prevent any such person joining another approved society instead of the society so formed:
(5) The affairs of the Seamen's National Insurance Society shall be managed by a committee constituted in accordance with a scheme to be prepared by the Board of Trade with the approval of the insurance Commissioners, comprising representatives of the Board of Trade., of shipowners, and of members of the society in equal proportions, and the society shall, notwithstanding anything in this Part of this Act, become an approved society:
(6) All contributions paid by employers in respect of masters, seamen, or apprentices who are neither domiciled nor have a place of residence in the United Kingdom, and consequently deemed not to be employed within the meaning of this Part of this Act, shall be credited to the Seamen's National insurance Society:
(7) In addition to medical, sanatorium, sickness, disablement, and maternity benefits, members of the Seamen's National Insurance Society shall be entitled to such other benefits as may be provided under a scheme to be prepared by the committee of management, with the approval of the Board of Trade and the Insurance Commissioners, and such other benefits shall include pensions for masters and seamen with long sea service, and the scheme may provide for preference being given to masters and seamen who have served in foreign-going ships or ships engaged in foreign trade over those who have served in the coasting and home trade ships, and such preference may be proportionate to the length of time spent in the first-mentioned service: Provided that, in the case of the transfer of a member of the society to another approved society, the transfer value payable in respect of him shall be calculated with reference to the liabilities of the society for benefits other than such pensions as aforesaid:
(8) The rules of the Seamen's National Insurance Society shall provide for allowing a member who leaves the sea service and is unable to obtain admission to another approved society on account of the state of his health to continue a member of the Seamen's National Insurance Society for the purposes of this Part of this Act, and the rules of that society may provide that a member of the society who has fulfilled the conditions entitling hint to such pension as aforesaid shall not be deprived of his right to the pension by reason only
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that he has ceased to be a member of the society at the time when the pension first becomes payable or ceases so to be at any subsequent time:
(9) Where a master, seaman, or apprentice is at the commencement of this Act a member of a society which becomes an approved society he may, if that society and the Seamen's National Insurance Society so agree, continue to be a member of the first-mentioned society for the purposes of benefits muter this Part of this Act other dins pension, and become a member of the last-mentioned society for cite purposes of pension only, and in such ease the balance of the contributions payable in respect of him (after deducting the sums to be retained by the Insurance Commissioners towards discharging their liabilities in respect of reserve values) shall be divided between the two societies in such proportion as they may agree:
(10) Expressions in this, section have the same meaning as in the Merchant Shipping Acts, 1894 to 1907, and the expression "ship engaged in regular trade on foreign stations" means a ship engaged regularly in trade between ports outside the British Islands when trading between such ports, but for the purposes of this provision a ship shall not lie deemed not to be engaged in such a trade by reason only that she puts into a port in the United Kingdom for the purpose of survey or repair:
(11) The provisions of this Part of this Act affecting the employed rate and the rates of contributions of employers and contributors in Ireland, arid depriving insured persons in Ireland of medical benefit, shall not apply to any such master, seaman, or apprentice, unless he has a permanent place of residence in Ireland and is not a member of the Seamen's National Insurance Society; and, in the case of a master, seaman, or apprentice serving on a foreign-going ship or a ship engaged in foreign trade to whom such provisions do apply the amount by which the employed rate and the employer's contributions are to be reduced shall be one halfpenny a week:
(12) Members of the Seamen's National Insurance Society shall for the purposes of this Part of this Act be deemed to reside in England, and the medical benefit and sanatorium benefit of such members shall be administered by the society instead of by the Insurance Committee, and the provisions of this Part of this Act relating to the administration of those benefits shall apply accordingly subject to such modifications as may be prescribed.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to add a new proviso in subsection (7), after the words "Provided that" The noble Viscount said: The reason for this Amendment is that some of the engineers belong to the Amalgamated Society of Engineers and

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not to the Seamen's National Insurance Society, and we think it right that they should be put on the same footing.
Amendment moved—
Page 59, line 38, after ("that") insert—
("(a) The scheme shall provide for making a proper proportion of the sums credited to the Seamen's National Insurance Society under the last foregoing subsection applicable towards the payment of pensions or superannuation allowances granted by other approved societies to members with such sea service that, had they been members of the Seamen's National Insurance Society, they would have been entitled to pensions under the scheme; and
(b)").—(Viscount Haldane)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE THE EARL OF STRADBROKE moved an addition at the end of subsection (9). The noble Earl said: If the Government are not able to accept this Amendment as it stands, perhaps they will be able to insert a few words to meet the case. I move this at the wish of the National Sea-Fishers' Protection Association, to which is affiliated practically all the sea-fishing associations in the United Kingdom. Under the Merchant Shipping Act owners of fishing vessels are compelled to make provision for any of their men who may be taken ill when they are on board, and they have to provide for medical attention during sickness. It must be remembered that these fishing vessels are very often engaged in fishing in places far distant from this country; they proceed to the coast of Iceland, to the Faroe Islands, the White Sea, and the northern coast of Morocco, and if a man is taken ill in such a place the owners of the vessel are put to considerable expense in providing for his maintenance and treatment, and also for his conveyance home. The object of the Amendment is to try and remove a grievance which I think will be found to come into existence if the Bill is passed as it now stands. We hope the Government will give permission for a scheme being prepared, which the Commissioners may accept or not, which will meet the case, so that vessels engaged in fishing operations so far distant from this country may have the same treatment as is accorded to merchant trading vessels in distant waters.
Amendment moved—
Page 60, line 29, after ("agree") insert—
(10) The fishermen and employers in the sea fishing service may submit a scheme to the Insurance Commissioners setting out the liabilities already covered under the Merchant Shipping Acts and the annual cost of providing medical benefits and other liabilities for the men employed, and the Insurance Commissioners may reduce the contributions of the men and the employers in accordance with the provisions laid down in this section for British ships and seamen in the foreign service or in such way as they may determine."—(The Earl of Stradbroke.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I am afraid I cannot do all that the noble Earl wants me to do, but I may be able to do something. The clause as it stands is an agreed clause. It was negotiated by Sir Norman Hill on behalf of the shipowners, and they all agreed to it, and it is a very good clause. Of course, the main purpose of it is with reference to foreign-going ships. The ships that go for long voyages come under the Merchant Shipping Acts, and the benefits provided by the shipowners are larger than the benefits under the Bill, and it is quite right that there should be special treatment there. But when you come to the coasting trade it is quite different. Ships that go along the coasts to the home ports can always as easily put a man on shore as keep him on board, and the difference in cost is very great indeed. What is a heavy burden in the case of the long voyage shipowner is a mere trifle in a case of this kind, and the difference in cost between the two benefits is so slight that it would not be possible, in these cases of merely short voyages along the coast, to allow the shipowner to make special arrangements such as is permitted under the clause dealing with the longer voyages. But there are cases of fishermen going out for a considerable voyage, to the Dogger Bank, for example, and I am prepared to move an Amendment in subsection (10), after "1894 to 1907," to this effect—" but the expression 'foreign-going ships' and home-trade ships' includes ships engaged in the sea fishing service." That will let in a certain number of these fishing boats to the scheme of the clause, but will still exclude those that merely trade along the coast.
THE EARL OF STRADBROKE: I am much obliged to the noble Viscount for meeting the case in the way he has, and I beg leave to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
Clause 47, page 60, line 31, after ("1907") insert ("but the expressions foreign-going ships' and home-trade ships ' include ships engaged in the sea fishing service").—(Viscount Haldane)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
VISCOUNT HALDANE VISCOUNT HALDANE moved to add words at the end of the clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 61, line 19, after ("prescribed") insert ("but nothing in this provision shall prevent the society agreeing with Insurance Committees for the administration of those benefits by the Committees in relation to individual members of the society").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 47, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 48 agreed to.
Clause 49:
Amendment moved—
Page 62, line 13, after ("and") insert ("that").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 49, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 50 to 52 agreed to.
Clause 53:
National Health Insurance Fund.
Financial Provisions.
53.—(1) All sums received in respect of contributions under this Part of this Act and all sums paid out of moneys provided by Parliament under this Part of this Act in respect of the benefits thereunder and the expenses of administration of such benefits shall be paid into a fund, to be called the National Health Insurance Fund, under the control and management of the Insurance Commissioners, and the sums required to meet expenditure properly incurred by approved societies and insurance committees for the purposes of the benefits administered by them and the administration of such benefits shall be paid out of that fund.
(2) The sums payable to the said fund out of moneys provided by Parliament shall be paid in such manner and at such times as the Treasury may determine.
(3) The Insurance Commissioners shall ascertain periodically what sums standing in the National Health Insurance Fund to the credit of the several societies and of the Post Office fund and of the Navy and Army Insurance Fund are available for investment, and the amount so ascertained shall, so far as not required under the provisions of this Part of this Act to be paid over to societies for
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investment or to be retained for investment on their behalf, or for the discharge of liabilities of societies, be carried to a separate account, called the Investment Account, and shall be paid over to the National Debt Commissioners and by them invested in accordance with regulations made by the Treasury in any securities which are for the time being authorised by Parliament as investments for Savings Banks funds, but those Commissioners shall in making the investment give preference to stock or bonds issued under the provisions of the Acts relating to borrowing for raising capital for the purposes of the local loans fund where the purposes for which such capital is required is the making of advances for the purposes of the Housing of the Working Classes Acts, 1890 to 1909:
Provided that nothing in this provision shall prevent the Insurance Commissioners paying over to the National Debt Commissioners for temporary investment, pending the ascertainment of the amount available for investment as aforesaid, any sums in the National Health Insurance Fund not required to meet current liabilities.
(4) There shall be credited to the Post Office fund and to the Navy and Army Insurance Fund interest at the prescribed rate per annum on the sums from time to time standing to the credit of those funds in the Investment Account.
(5) The accounts of the National Health Insurance Fund shall be audited in such manner as the Treasury may direct.
(6) The National Debt Commissioners shall present to Parliament annually an account of the securities in which moneys forming part of the said fund are for the time being invested.
LORD WELBY: I wish to call the attention of my noble friend to subsection (5) of Clause 53 which provides that the accounts of the National Health Insurance Fund shall be audited in such manner as the Treasury may direct. I propose, by the leave of the House, to move to insert after "audited" the words "by the Comptroller and Auditor General" I trust my noble friend will assent to that Amendment. As it at present stands it would leave the choice of an auditor to the Treasury, and I do not think that that choice ought to be left to the Executive Government. There being an independent officer in the shape of the Comptroller and Auditor General, I think Parliament should lay it down that the audit of a public fund of this kind should be conducted by him.
Amendment moved—
Clause 53, page 65, line 17, after ("audited" ) insert ("by the Comptroller and Auditor General").—(Lord Welby.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 53, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 54:
Amendments moved—
Page 65, line 30, after ("this") insert ("Part of this")
Page 65, line 31, leave out ("over the age of "sixteen") and insert ("of the age of seventeen or upwards").
Page 66, line 8, after ("this") insert ("Part of this").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 54, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 55:
Amendment moved—
Page 66, line 32, leave out ("or") and insert ("and").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 55, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 56:
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 13, leave out ("such").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 14, after ("inspector") insert ("appointed by them").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 56, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 57:
Appointment of Advisory Committee.
57. The Insurance Commissioners shall as soon as may be after the passing of this Act appoint an Advisory Committee for the purpose of giving the Insurance Commissioners advice and assistance in connexion with the making and altering of regulations under this Part of this Act, consisting of representatives of associations of employers and approved societies, of duly qualified medical practitioners who have personal experience of general practice, and of such other persons as the Commissioners may appoint, of whom two at least shall be women.
LORD WEARDALE*LORD WEARDALE moved, after the words "general practice," to insert "of pharmacists." The noble Lord said: My Amendment to this clause, and also my Amendments to Clauses 58 and 61, are in
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the interests of the organised chemists and druggists, who wish to be represented on the Advisory Committee proposed to be set up under this clause. One of the duties of that Committee will be to provide for the supply of pure drugs to insured persons at reasonable prices, and it seems to the associations that it would be of great service to have two or three of their members added to the Committee in order to advise them upon the subject. I ought to say that these Amendments were put down in the House of Commons, but were never discussed. They, unfortunately, came under the operation of the guillotine. Therefore I do not know what the view of the Government may be upon them, but I hope my noble friend will be prepared to make some concession to this important industry, who wish to be represented in the carrying out of the very valuable operations of this Bill.
Amendment moved—
Page 69, line 29, after ("practice") insert ("of pharmacists").—(Lord Weardale.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: The proposal of my noble friend in his series of Amendments to place pharmacists in the same position as doctors and give them representation on the Advisory Committee is a very far-reaching proposition and depends upon whether pharmacists are entitled to be placed on the same footing as doctors. We cannot see that it is necessary to put them in this position, and I would point out that the Insurance Commissioners have power, if they think pharmacists should be on the Advisory Committee, to put them on. But, after all, their business is not the same as the business of physicians, and I see no reason why they should be placed on the same footing; and if this Amendment was accepted there might be other trouble of a far more serious character with regard to some of the later clauses.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 57 agreed to.
Clause 58:
Insurance Committees.
58.—(1) A Insurance Committee shall be constituted for every county and county borough.
(2) Every such committee shall consist of such number of members as the Insurance Commissioners, having regard to the circumstances of

1061
each case, determine but in no case less than forty or more than eighty of whom—

(a) three-fifths shall be appointed in such manner as may be prescribed by regular of the Insurance Committee as to secure representation of the insured persons resident in the county or county borough who are members of approved societies, and who are deposit contributors in proportion, as nearly as may be, to their respective numbers;

(b) one-fifth shall be appointed by the council of the county or county borough;

(c) two members shall be elected in manner of provided by regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, either by any association of duly qualified medical practitioners resident in the county or county borough which may have been formed for that purpose under such regulations, or, if no such association has been formed, by such practitioners;

(d) one member or, if the total number of the committee is sixty or upwards, two members, or if the total number of the committee is eighty, three members, shall be duly qualified medical practitioners appointed by council of the county or county borough;

(e) the remaining members shall be appointed by the Insurance Commissioners:

Provided that—

(i) The regulations with respect to the appointment of members to represent insured persons shall provide for conferring on the approved societies which have members resident in the county or county borough the power of appointing the representatives of such members, and, where an association of the deposit contributors resident in the county or I county borough has been formed under such regulations as aforesaid, for conferring on such association the power of appointing the representatives of the deposit contributors;

(ii) Of the members appointed by the council of the county or county borough two at least shall be women, and of the member's appointed by the Insurance Commissioners one at least shall be a duly qualified medical practitioner and two at least shall be women.

(3) The Insurance Commissioners may, where any part of the cost of medical benefit or sanatorium benefit is defrayed by the council of the county or county borough, increase the representation of the council and make a corresponding diminution in the representation of the insured persons.
(4) The Insurance Commissioners may make regulations as to the appointment, quorum, term of office, and rotation of members and proceedings generally (including the appointment of subcommittees consisting wholly or partly of members of this committee) of the committee, and the employment of officers and the provision of offices by the committee including the use by the committee, with or without payment, of any offices of local authority, but subject to the consent of such authority, and any such regulations may
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provide for the constitution of district committees, and for apportioning amongst the several district committees any of the powers and duties of the Insurance Committee and regulating the relations of district committees to the Insurance Committee and to one another:
Provided that the regulations so made shall require the Insurance Committee of every county (except in cases where, owing to special circumstances, the Commissioners consider it unnecessary) within six months after the commencement of this Act to prepare, after consultation with the county council and submit for approval to the Commissioners a scheme for the appointment of district committees for the county and prescribing the area to be assigned to each such committee, and in particular the scheme shall provide for the appointment of a district committee for each borough (including the City of London and a metropolitan borough) within the county having a population of not less than ten thousand, and for each urban district within the county with a population of twenty thousand but if the Insurance Committee or, on appeal, the Insurance Commissioners consider it expedient in the case of any such borough or urban district any adjoining areas may be grouped with such borough or urban district for the purpose of the appointment of a district committee.
(5) Any Insurance Committee may, and shall if so required by the Insurance Commissioners, combine with any one or more other Insurance Committees for all or any of the purposes of this Part of this Act, and where they so combine the provisions of this Part of this Act shall apply with such necessary adaptations as may be prescribed.
THE LORD BISHOP OF BANGOR THE LORD BISHOP OF BANGOR moved, at the end of paragraph (a) of subsection (2), to add the following new paragraph, "One-tenth to be appointed by the employers of the said insured persons." The right rev. Prelate said: I hope the Government will see their way, if not to accept my Amendment exactly as I have put it, to agree to something of the kind. Health committees are appointed with very considerable powers, and it is proscribed that the majority on those committees shall be elected to represent the insured persons. The committees have very great powers, and can set in motion machinery that may bring very unpleasant consequences upon the employer, and it does seem to me only fair that the employers, who are so largely interested, should have some representation. Let me quote one instance where the employer may be seriously affected. Subsection (2), paragraph (a), of Clause 62 provides that—
"Where the excess"—that is, of sickness—" or such part thereof as aforesaid is due to the conditions or nature of the employment or to any neglect on the part of any employer to observe or enforce any such Act or regulation as aforesaid, it shall be made good by the employer."

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There seems to be a large avenue opened up there of serious consequences that may fall upon the employer owing to machinery set in motion by the health committees, and while I quite admit that the insured people should have a large majority, it seems only right that the employers should be represented too. This also seems to be in harmony with the intentions of the Bill, because Clause 47 in constituting the committee to deal with the affairs of the Seamen's National Insurance Society, which also has great powers, gives an equal representation to the Board of Trade, shipowners, and members of the Society. It is, therefore, I think not unreasonable to give employers some slight representation on these health committees, and I propose a representation of one-tenth, but perhaps the noble Viscount, on considering the matter, can suggest some better way.
Amendment moved—
Page 70, line 4, after ("numbers") insert the following new paragraph:
One-tenth to be appointed by the employers of the said insured persons.—(The Lord Bishop of Bangor.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: The difficulty about the right rev. Prelate's Amendment is that it would take away from the representation, not of the insured persons, but of the county councils. As he proposes it, it would take away half the representation of the county councils and give it to the employers. Employers are not directly interested in the administration of the benefits; that is not a thing that personally concerns them; and I do not see why they should be represented on the health committees. I do see why the county councils should be strongly represented; and, moreover, I think the county councils will very often appoint persons who are employers to sit on the committee. Therefore it is better to leave the representation of the committees as mentioned in the Bill. I venture to think that the county councils would be extremely angry if we took away from their not very strong representation on the committees and gave it to those whom it may turn out will be the very people they will appoint.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH had an Amendment on the Paper to amend paragraph (e) of subsection (2) by inserting
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after "members" the words "who shall consist of employers." The noble Lord said: My Amendment raises in a different form something of the same point which has just been raised by the right rev. Prelate. I agree with the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill that it would not be fair to take away from the county councils a part of their representation to give it to the employers, but it seems to me hard that the employers as a body should not have a certainty of some representation. As a class they will have to furnish a large proportion of the funds which these committees will administer. I am informed that of the whole sum, at least £9,000,000 out of the £20,000,000 will come direct from the employers as a class. They are also interested in the matters which will occupy the attention of these committees, and they are greatly concerned with the way in which these committees will exercise their powers and duties. For example, the committees will have to prepare statistical and other returns as to the health of insured persons. Under a sub Sequent clause allegations may be made seriously affecting the interests of the employers and the moneys they will have to pay, and as a class I think the employers are asking very little if they ask to be assured that some part of the representation on these committees will be allotted to them. I do not think that the actual form of the Amendment which I have put down is quite satisfactory, and I propose to move it in these words, "some of whom shall be employers." I trust that the noble Viscount will be able to accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 70, line 19, after ("members") insert ("some of whom shall be employers").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I feel the same difficulty here that I felt and expressed with regard to the last Amendment. I repeat that employers are quite likely to be put on these committees. Under the second proviso, if you take the somewhat exiguous character of the representatives appointed by the Insurance Commissioners, one at least must be a duly qualified medical practitioner and two at least shall be women, and you may find somebody who is both a woman and an employer, and somebody who is a medical practitioner and an employer, and somebody who is a

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woman and a medical practitioner and an employer all in one. It is very unwise to restrict the narrow operations of the Commissioners, and I hope the noble Lord will not press his Amendment, especially as I think his object will be attained otherwise.
VISCOUNT ST. ALWYN: In any case, I do not think my noble friend's Amendment would have any effect, because any person who has a maid-servant would be an employer under the Act.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Whether that is so or not, it is quite obvious that it is no use at this stage, and under the circumstances in which we are placed, attempting to impose an Amendment on the Government which they do not wish to accept, and therefore I do not press it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I will simply ask the noble Viscount whether he can accept my next Amendment to include a certified midwife. I will not argue it.
Amendment moved—
Page 70, line 20, after ("Commissioners") insert ("and shall include one certified midwife").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I sympathise with the object of the noble Lord, but I do not see my way to work the Amendment in.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments moved—
Page 71, line 12, after ("district") insert ("insurance")
Page 71, line 13, after ("district") insert ("insurance")
Page 71, line 14, after ("district") insert ("insurance")
Page 71, line 22, after ("district") insert ("insurance")
Page 71, line 24, after ("district") insert ("insurance")
Page 71, line 28, after ("of") insert ("not less than")
Page 71, line 30, after ("borough") insert ("outside London")
Page 71, line 32, after the second ("district") insert ("insurance").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 58, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 59:
Amendments moved—
Page 71, line 41, after ("duties") insert ("conferred and").
Page 72, line 1, leave out ("or conferred").— (Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 72, line 23, after ("desirable") insert ("and may, if it thinks fit, for that purpose make arrangements with local education authorities, universities, and other institutions."—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 59, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 60 and 61 agreed to.
Clause 62:
Excessive Sickness.
62.—(1) Where it is alleged by the Insurance Commissioners or by any approved society or Insurance Committee that the sickness which has taken place among any insured persons, being, in the case where the allegation is made by a society or committee, persons for the administration of whose sickness and disablement benefits the society or committee is responsible, is excessive, and that such excess is due to the conditions or nature of employment of such persons, or to bad housing or insanitary conditions in any locality, or to an insufficient or contaminated water supply, or to the neglect on the part of any person or authority to observe or enforce the provisions of any Acts relating to the health of workers in factories, workshops, mines, quarries, or other industries, or relating to public health, or the housing of the working classes, or any regulations made under any such Act, or to observe or enforce any public health precautions, the Commissioners or the society or committee making such allegation may send to the person or authority alleged to be in default a claim for the payment of the amount of any extra expenditure alleged to have been incurred by reason of such cause as aforesaid, and if the Commissioners, society, or committee and such person or authority fail to arrive at any agreement on the subject may apply to the Secretary of State or the Local Government Board, as the case may require, for an inquiry, and thereupon the Secretary of State or Local Government Board may appoint a competent person to hold an inquiry.
(2) If upon such inquiry being held it is proved to the satisfaction of the person holding the inquiry that the amount of such sickness has—

(i) during a period of not less than three years before the date of the inquiry; or

(ii) if there has been an outbreak of any epidemic, endemic or infectious disease, during any less period;

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been in excess of the average expectation of sickness by more than ten per cent., and that such excess was in whole or in part due to any such cause as aforesaid, the amount of any extra expenditure found by the person holding the inquiry to have been incurred under this Part of this Act by any societies or committees where the allegation is made by the Insurance Commissioners, or if the allegation is made by a society or committee, by the society or committee in question by reason of such cause shall be ordered by him to be made good in accordance with the following provisions:—

(a) Where the excess or such part thereof as aforesaid is due to the conditions or nature of the employment or to any neglect on the part of any employer to observe or enforce any such Act or regulation as aforesaid, it shall be made good by the employer:

(b) Where such excess or such part thereof as aforesaid is due to bad housing or insanitary conditions in the locality, or to any neglect on the part of any local authority to observe or enforce any such Act or regulation or such precautions as aforesaid, it shall be made good by such local authority as appears to the person holding the inquiry to have been in default, or if due to the insanitary condition of any particular premises shall be made good either by such authority or by the owner, lessee, or occupier of the premises who is proved to the satisfaction of the person holding the inquiry to be responsible:

(c) Where the excess of such part thereof as aforesaid is due to an insufficient or contaminated water supply, it shall be made good by the local authority, company, or person by which the water is supplied, or which having imposed upon it the duty of affording a water supply has refused or neglected to do so, unless the local authority or company prove that such insufficiency or contamination was not clue to any default on the part of the authority, company or person, but arose from circumstances over which it had no control.

(3) Where any such inquiry as aforesaid is held in respect of bad housing or insanitary conditions in any locality, it shall be lawful for the local authority to serve notice upon the owner, lessee, or occupier of any premises which are the subject-matter of the inquiry, and where it is proved that such a notice has been served and that any such extra expense as aforesaid, or any part thereof, has been caused by the act or default of such owner or occupier, the person holding the inquiry may order the owner, lessee or occupier to repay to the local authority the amount of the extra expenditure or part thereof which has been so caused.
(4) For the purpose of this section the average expectation of sickness shall be calculated in accordance with the tables prepared by the Insurance Commissioners for the purpose of valuations under this Part of this Act, but any excessive sickness attributable to any disease or disablement which is due to any disease or injury in respect of which damages or compensation are payable under the Employers'
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Liability Act, 1880, or the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1906, or at common law, shall not be taken into account.
(5) The Insurance Commissioners shall make regulations as to the procedure on inquiries under this section, and a person holding an inquiry under this section shall have all such powers as an inspector of the Local Government Board has for the purposes of an inquiry under the Public Health Acts, and shall have power to order how and by what parties cost, including such expenses as the Secretary of State or Local Government Board may certify to have been incurred by them, are to be paid, and an order made by such person under this section may by leave of the High Court be enforced in the same manner as a judgment or order of the Court to the same effect:
Provided that a society or committee shall not be ordered to pay the costs of the other party to the inquiry if the person holding the inquiry certifies that the demand for an inquiry was reasonable under the circumstances, and when he so certifies the Treasury may repay to the society or committee the whole or any part of the costs incurred by it.
(6) Without prejudice to any other method of recovery, any sum ordered under this section to he paid by a local authority may, in accordance with the regulations of the Local Government Board with the approval of the Treasury, be paid out of the Local Taxation Account and deducted from any sums payable either directly or indirectly out of that account to the local authority.
(7) For the purposes of this section any expenditure on any benefit administered by an Insurance Committee shall be deemed to be expenditure of that Committee, but any sums ordered to be paid to any such Committee under this section to meet extra expenditure on sickness benefit or disablement benefit shall be dealt with for the benefit of deposit contributors in accordance with regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners.
(8) Where under this section any sum is paid to the Insurance Commissioners, the Insurance Commissioners shall apply the same in discharge of any expenses incurred by the Commissioners under this section and shall distribute the balance amongst the societies and committees which appear to the Commissioners to have incurred extra expense on account of the excessive sickness in such proportions as the Commissioners think just.
(9) Where an association of deposit contributors resident in any county or county borough has been formed under regulations made by the Insurance Commissioners, the Insurance Committee for the county or county borough shall, if so required by the association, take proceedings under this section on behalf and at the expense of the association.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: My Lords, this is a most important clause, and I would like to call the attention of your Lordships to one or two points in it. The pith of it, of course, is that if a complaint is made an inquiry shall be held by

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a person to be appointed by the Secretary of State or by the Local Government Board to see how far excessive disease, so to speak, within a certain area is due to the neglect or default of the local authorities, or of any individuals; and the result of the inquiry might be, that the local authorities or individuals might be heavily penalised by the person so appointed. There is nothing whatever said as to the qualifications of the person who should conduct such an inquiry as this, which may be one imposing a very large payment towards the insurance fund upon the local authority, or indeed upon individuals. It is quite easy to conceive the possibility, in a large area like London or Lancashire, of a sum amounting to many thousands of pounds being imposed on the local authority and consequently on the ratepayers, and yet there is no appeal whatever provided in the clause. The penalty is to be imposed by a person who is only described as a "competent person." That person may be a briefless barrister of seven years' standing, or a medical practitioner without any practice and with a considerable number of fancies in his mind as to sanitation; and I think His Majesty's Government might consider whether, in the first place, the authority imposing such a penalty ought not to be a Government Department instead of an individual, and, secondly, whether there ought not to be some kind of appeal, certainly on points of law, against the result of such an inquiry. On the first point, I venture to suggest to your Lordships that the inquiry should be held as proposed, the person being appointed, as is also proposed, by the Secretary of State or the Local Government Board, and that then, if a penalty has to be imposed, it should be done on the report of the inquiry by the Government Department concerned—either the Secretary of State or the Local Government Board. They would be responsible to Parliament for their conduct in the matter, whereas the person concerned could have no responsibility of the kind. I submit to your Lordships that this is a matter which ought not to be dealt with in the manner now proposed in this clause. My noble friend, Lord Clifford of Chudleigh, at the instance of the County Councils Association, has placed an Amendment on the Paper later on providing for an appeal from the decision to two or more of His
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Majesty's Judges. I do not know whether that Amendment is one—perhaps it may not be—that His Majesty's Government can accept, but I have suggested in another Amendment another kind of appeal, that before any order is made the draft of the same shall be laid before each House of Parliament for a certain time, with power, of course, to annul it. The point I wish first to raise is the question of the authority which should impose the penalty. I submit to the noble Viscount that this Amendment does not in any way impede the working of the scheme, but simply provides a responsible authority to exercise the very large powers provided under this clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 74, line 20, leave out ("person holding the enquiry") and insert ("Secretary of State or Local Government Board, as the case may be").—(Viscount St. Aldwyn.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: The Government have given a great deal of consideration to this question. On the one hand we wish to do what is right, and, on the other, we wish also to take care that the machinery is machinery of a workable kind. If the Amendment of the noble Viscount were carried, it would put the Minister responsible for the Department in the position of giving a judicial decision, and that is just what he is not in a position to do. In the case of a purely administrative matter that very often happens, and an Amendment such as the noble Viscount proposes would be appropriate. But in this case, you are holding a judicial inquiry into something which can only be held by a referee. It is obvious that a question of this kind, if it came before the Law Courts, would almost inevitably be referred to some barrister, I hope of good standing, or to a special or official referee, and he would go down and take the evidence and report, and practically it would be almost impossible to review his report. It is almost impossible in these cases even for a Court of Justice to review the report come to on a question of fact. Of course, if he had exceeded his powers or gone contrary to natural justice, then in the case I am describing where the Judge of the High Court has referred the matter to a referee who has gone down and reported, the Judge would set the thing aside as ultra vires on the part of the referee, or misconceived in the form of the

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procedure. But that power remains under this clause in regard to the special machinery, because the order of the person making the inquiry has not of itself any legal force until you put in operation subsection (5) of the clause, which says that "an order made by such person under this section may by leave of the High Court be enforced in the same manner as a judgment or order of the Court to the same effect." That means that you have to apply to the High Court to enforce it, and if they have any doubt about it they say, "No, bring an action."
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: Would the noble Viscount look at the following subsection—subsection 6—where the penalty may be exacted?
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Yes,—"any sum ordered under this section to be paid." That is only in cases where the Local Government Board, with the approval of the Treasury, have made regulations enabling them to take the sum out of the Local Taxation Account.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: There is no appeal to the Court.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Not in that case; but it is subject to regulations that the Local Government Board may make, and they may in such a case make provision for the payment of the amount—it is not an absolute right—out of the Local Taxation Account. There is no power to enforce it in persona. In the general case you have to go to the Court which gives you leave to bring an action, or to apply for a writ of certiorari. The kind of question here is not one which you could litigate in an ordinary Court of Justice. If you tried to do so, it would be referred to somebody, as would happen under the Bill, and the purpose of this is to make machinery which is workable. I agree that the machinery must be just, but looking to the class of case which had to be dealt with, we thought that this was the most efficacious and fair way of doing it, and it is on that footing that the Government have framed the clause. It is a footing to which they attach very great importance, and without it they think the section would be a dead letter.
LORD ASHBOURNE: I have read this clause with attention. It is, like a great many other clauses, of tremendous length and anything but simple to understand. I have also had the advantage of listening to the explanation of the noble Viscount, who is, of course, a very distinguished lawyer, but I am not sure how subsection (5) and subsection (6) are to be read together, or how they are consistent either with each other or with what precedes them. The objection taken by the noble Viscount, Lord St. Aldwyn, is that this immense power is given to an unknown person, a person with no official position, and there is no statement of any qualification whatever on his part. My noble friend instanced the possibility of his being a barrister without a brief or a medical man without a practice, but even those meagre qualifications are not given in the Bill. It is to be some person who is to be deemed "competent," but it does not state with clearness who is to be satisfied of his competence—it may be the Secretary of State or it may be the Local Government, Board—and I think the least we might expect would be some statement as to his qualifications. His powers may be immense, the liabilities under a finding of his might easily tot up to thousands, £20,000 or £30,000 or even more, and yet he may be a person without the slightest qualifications or training to guide him in deciding these intricate questions, involving listening to the most diverse, scientific evidence and I can conceive the highest expert evidence being called to prove who is responsible for the damage and whether it is traceable to anything that is curable or incurable. It is perfectly evident to anyone that this clause bristles with difficulties and with enormous risks of vast sums being imposed by way of penalty under it, and yet there is no appeal in law.
The noble Viscount says that whatever is the finding of this competent person it is not to be carried into effect until an order is made by a Court of Law. I am glad that that is given as the legal construction of the clause as a whole. I readily accept as entitled to the highest respect any opinion given on that subject by the noble Viscount, whose eminence as a lawyer we all are glad to recognise, and I accept his statement that it is intended that the omnipotence given by the four preceding subsections is all subject to review by a Court of Law under the

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fifth subsection. I do not see how it can be said that the sixth subsection follows, as what one would expect to find, upon the fifth subsection; but taking it that they are, to be read together, would it not be legitimate to put into the sixth subsection that the power given there shall be subject to the same process of review by the High Court as is mentioned in subsection. (5)? If that is intended, why not say it? Subsection (6) stands out by itself without a suggestion of appeal to any one. It is very difficult to apply our minds to it in this rapid way, but it is quite obvious that the clause should not be allowed to stand as it is now without some intimation of the kind of competent person that is to be employed. What are to be his qualifications? Is there to be a rota of competent persons? Is he to have any official status, like an Inspector of the Local Government Board? Is what he does to be subject to any form of official examination and approval before it is submitted to the High Court; or is his work not even to be reviewed or considered by the Department which appoints him? I accept the statement that it is intended to give to the High Court a power of review; but is it reasonable, before that review of the High Court, to allow this man to go wandering about the country giving judgments involving large sums of money, without even having his work submitted to the Local Government Board or the Secretary of State, or whoever appoints him?
I do not wish to prolong the discussion, but it occurs to me that words should be put in, either now or at the next stage, making it absolutely plain, if there be, any room for doubt, that the power of appeal to the High Court in subsection (5) is intended to be a power that covers all the previous work of this "competent person," and enables him to be subject to a complete review in regard to all his findings under the previous four subsections; and I venture to suggest that it might be reasonable, after the explanation given by the noble Viscount opposite, that subsection (6) should have clear words put into it indicating that it is to be read in connection with, and to have the same power of review as is mentioned in, subsection (5).
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: My Lords, I want to add a word in support
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of the contention which has just been urged from this side of the House. There are two questions involved. First, by whom and on whose authority the person who is to make the inquiry is to be appointed and what are to be his qualifications. The other, and I venture to say quite as important, if not a more important, question is whether there is to be an appeal from his decision. We have drifted into a discussion on both these points at the same time. I want to say a word or two in support of the extreme desire for an appeal from the decision of this gentleman. I think in this matter that local authorities all over the country have been somewhat unjustly treated and their case prejudiced by the course of events in another place. Evidence was given that they had to some extent neglected their duties. But the evidence which was adduced was of old date. It may be that in the past local authorities have neglected their duties, and some of them may be in default, but you must remember that it is only very recently that powers have been given to the local authorities to take the steps which will probably be incumbent upon them in the future. Difficulties in taking these steps have been very great on financial grounds. Time after time new burdens are laid upon the rates, and promises made that, local authorities are to have assistance out of a central fund if they do their duty, but those promises have not been fullfilled; and I object to this power, apparently to be forced on the initiative of a Government Department, of penalising them in this way and subtracting from the pittances which they already possess without any appeal. The Government can collect the money they are ordered to pay at their own sweet will, and there is to be no appeal at all. My contention on this point will, of course, fall to the ground if there is to be an appeal under subsection (6) as well as under the previous one.
On the question of expense, I believe that on balance an appeal to a properly constituted Court will save expense rather than add to it. One of the commonest arguments against appeals is that they add to the expense, and that the expense is greater than the appeal is worth; but I would point out that if you have two or three score of independent experts going about the country and holding inquiries and coming to decisions against

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which there is no appeal, their decisions will form no authoritative precedent and will not be binding, whereas if you have a case or two taken to the Law Courts, in the form of an appeal the questions there decided will be decided according to the law of the country, and not according to the sweet will of the individual who is holding the inquiry, and the decision given in each case will constitute a precedent and afford guidance that may be followed in similar cases. I think I have made out my case that in this matter the giving of a power of appeal will create precedents and let people know where they are, and save expense rather than add to it, and I hope it will be given.
VISCOUNT MORLEY: The noble and learned Lord who spoke last but one said he did not wish to prolong the discussion. He said that after having made what was, no doubt, a serious contribution to the debate. All of us who listened both to his speech and to the more detailed speech of the noble Lord who has just sat down, will feel that there is a great deal to be said in favour of the views which are adverse to this clause of the Bill. There is much to be said, as on many other questions, on both sides. The Government have not treated this matter lightly. It has been minutely and elaborately considered, and the Government, I am afraid, even if the discussion were ever so far prolonged, would not be at all likely to accede to the wishes of the noble Lord opposite. I regret it, but it is so.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: I feel the difficulty of pressing any Amendment, and the Government must take the responsibility in the matter. I will not therefore press it, but only refer to what was said by the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill when he referred us to subsection (5) as giving an appeal to the Law Courts. I accept that, but I venture to point out to him that subsection (6) gives no such appeal, and that under that subsection any local authority can be fined and the amount deducted from money due to it from the Treasury at the instance of the Treasury and the Local Government Board, and that no appeal lies under that subsection to any Court at all.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: The Treasury is as good as the Secretary of State.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: I put in the Secretary of State for an entirely different purpose—as the authority proposing the fine, so to speak. That would be precedent to what I am now referring to. I propose to withdraw my Amendment, and on subsection (6) to move, when the proper time comes, that after the word "and" in line 31 be inserted the words "may, by leave of the High Court, be." That would make it clear that whether the money has to be exacted from the local authority by levying a rate or by depriving it of money due to it from the Treasury, there will be an appeal to the High Court.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
Page 75, line 25, leave out the first ("which") and insert ("whom") and leave out the second ("which") and insert ("who").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 75, line 26, leave out ("it") and insert ("them")
Page 75, line 27, leave out ("has") and insert ("have")
Page 75, line 28, leave out the first ("or") and after ("company") insert ("or person")
Page 75, line 31, leave out ("it") and insert ("they")
Page 75, line 39, after ("owner") insert ("lessee").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: I now beg to move, in page 76, line 31, after ("and"), to insert "may by leave of the High Court be." Subsection (6) will then read—
"Without prejudice to any other method of recovery, any sum ordered under this section to be paid by a local authority may, in accordance with the regulations of the Local Government Board with the approval of the Treasury, be paid out of the Local Taxation Account and may by leave of the High Court be deducted from any sums payable either directly or indirectly out of that account to the local authority."
That will give power to the local authority to appeal to the High Court, as I understand is already given in the previous subsection.
Amendment moved—
Page 76, line 31, after ("and") insert ("may by leave of the High Court be").—(Viscount St. Aldwyn.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: This is quite unworkable. The noble Viscount proposes to put in "by leave of the High Court." The High Court has been given no jurisdiction to deal with the matter. What is done here is this. An administrative section is put in which, requires the approval of the Treasury in the event of the procedure being put in force. Then there is some kind of control by an important Government Department, I should have thought as good as the Secretary of State brought in in the way the noble Viscount proposes to bring him in. But it is not really the fact that in the one case there is an appeal and in the other there is not. As I pointed out, if, having given an order of this kind, the person appointed to inquire has travelled beyond his duty or acted contrary to natural justice, it can be reviewed. You can review an arbitrator in such a case, and if the High Court has any doubt you can bring an action or proceed by way of a writ of certiorari. The necessity of going to the High Court gives you an opportunity of raising the matter. In the other case where it is a question of paying money, there is still the remedy, I take it, by certiorari; and you have there the security of the Local Government Board and the Treasury coming in. To bring the High Court into that clause would be to bring it in in a way which would give it no jurisdiction. This is a case in which very high, and responsible persons are put in charge, and to introduce the High Court is to do what really is not only quite impracticable in working, but a thing I have never seen anything the like of in the course of my experience.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: I see there is a difficulty, and I beg to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
Page 76, line 37, leave out ("ordered to be")—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 62, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 63:
Amendments moved—
Page 77, line 17, after the second ("of") insert ("or making grants in aid to")
Page 77, line 32, leave out ("such").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 63, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 64 agreed to.
Clause 65:
Amendments moved—
Page 79, line 6, leave out ("a person is employed") and insert ("any employment or any class of employment is or will be employment"
Page 79, line 29, at the end of paragraph (ii) insert the following new paragraph:
(iii) The Insurance Commissioners may, if they think fit, instead of themselves deciding whether any class of employment is employment within the meaning of this Part of this Act submit the question for decision to the High Court in such summary manner as subject to rules of court may be directed by the court, and the court, after hearing such parties and taking such evidence (if any) as it thinks just, shall decide the question, and the decision of the court shall be final.
after ("society") insert as a new subsection
(2) This section shall come into operation on the passing of this Act.—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 65, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 66:
Amendment moved—
Page 80, line 9, leave out ("contributor") and insert ("person").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 66, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 67 agreed to.
Clause 68:
Amendment moved—
Page 82, line 3, after the second ("or") insert ("any").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 68, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 69 and 70 agreed to.
Clause 71:
Amendment moved—
Page 83, line 19, after ("scheme") insert ("or a supplementary scheme").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 83, line 23, after ("scheme") insert ("or the supplementary scheme").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 84, line 3, after ("scheme") insert ("or the supplementary scheme").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 84, line 8, leave out ("and").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question. Amendment agreed to.
Clause 71, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 72 to 78 agreed to.
Clause 79:
Amendments moved—
Page 87, line 25, leave out ("an actuary") and insert ("a person"), and after ("such") insert ("actuarial")
Page 87, line 26, leave out ("prescribed") and insert ("approved by the Treasury").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 87, line 34, leave out from ("person") to the end of line 36, and insert ("shall be deemed according to the law in England, Wales, and Ireland, as well as according to the law in Scotland, not to have attained the age of seventeen until the commencement of the seventeenth anniversary of the day of his birth, and similarly with respect to other ages").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 79, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 80:
Amendment moved—
Page 89, line 39, leave out ("except in this section").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The Amendment in my name is to suit the special circumstances of Scotland. I have made a slight amendment in the third line. The words "in such case" are not sufficiently definite, and I propose to substitute for them "where a number less than forty is fixed." I think that will meet the case of Scotland, and I hope the noble Viscount will accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 90, line 6, after ("1889") insert:
("(6) The minimum number of an insurance committee for any area containing a population of less than forty thousand shall be twenty-five instead of forty; and where a number less than forty is fixed the constitution of the committee may be varied as may be prescribed, so however that the proportion of members to be appointed by insured persons and by a county or town council and the number of members possessing a medical qualification shall not be altered").—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 90, line 7, after person insert ("except a medical practitioner qualified as such").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 90, line 41, after ("the") insert ("Scottish").
Page 91, line 4, leave out ("and sub-committees") and insert ("subject to the approval of the council")
Page 91, line 6, leave out ("sub-committees") and insert ("committees")
Page 91, line 20, after ("the") insert ("Scottish")
Page 91, line 33, leave out ("section fifty-nine") and insert ("the section")
Page 91, line 34, after ("Act") insert ("relating to excessive sickness").
Page 92, line 34, leave out from ("justice") to ("means") in line 37.
Page 93, line 12, after ("proceedings") insert ("certified midwife" means any midwife possessing such qualifications as may be prescribed")
Page 93, line 14, after ("1907") insert ("'Local Loans Act, 1875' means the Local Authorities Loans (Scotland) Acts, 1891 and 1893").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 80, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 81:
Amendment moved—
Page 95, line 24, leave out from ("shall") to ("be") in line 28.—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 99, line 40, after ("provision of") insert ("or making grants in aid to").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 28, after subsection (16) insert the following new subsection:
("(17) In the special provisions as to persons becoming certified teachers references to the Board of Education, to the Elementary School Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1898, and to a public elementary school shall respectively be construed as references to the Superintendent of the Teachers' Pension Office, to the National School Teachers' (Ireland) Act, 1879, and to a national school, and any sums paid to the Superintendent of the Teachers' Pension Office in pursuance of those provisions shall be carried to the Pension Fund established under the last-mentioned Act and shall be dealt with in accordance with rules under that Act").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 35, after subsection (18) insert the following new subsection:
("(19) For references to a duly certified midwife, there shall be substituted references to a midwife having such qualifications as may be prescribed").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 81, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 82:
Establishment of Commissioners for Wales.
82.—(1) For the purpose of carrying this Part of this Act into effect in Wales there shall be constituted, as soon as may be after the passing of this Act, Commissioners for Wales (to be called the Welsh Insurance Commissioners) with a central office in such town in Wales as the Treasury may determine, and with such branch offices in Wales as the Treasury may think fit, and the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, of whom one at least shall be a, duly qualified medical practitioner, shall be appointed by the Treasury, and may appoint such officers, inspectors, referees, and servants for the purposes aforesaid as the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, subject to the approval of the Treasury, may determine, and the provisions of this Part of this Act with respect to the payment of the salaries and remuneration of the Insurance Commissioners, and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them, and with respect to the payment of the expenses incurred by the Treasury or the Insurance Commissioners in carrying this Part of this Act into effect shall, with the necessary modifications, apply to the payment of the salaries and remuneration of the Welsh Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them, and to the
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payment of expenses incurred by the Treasury or the Welsh Insurance Commissioners in carrying this Part of this Act into effect in Wales, and for the purpose aforesaid the Welsh Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them shall respectively have all the like powers and duties as are by the provisions of this Act conferred and imposed on the Insurance Commissioners and the officers, inspectors, referees, and servants appointed by them, and references in those provisions to the Insurance Commissioners shall be construed as references to the Welsh Insurance Commissioners.
(2) All sums received from contributions under this Part of this Act in respect of insured persons resident in Wales, and all sums paid out of moneys provided by Parliament in respect of benefits under this Part of this Act to such persons, and the expenses of administration of such benefits shall be paid into a fund to be called the Welsh National Health Insurance Fund, under the control and management of the Welsh Insurance Commissioners, and the sums required to meet expenditure properly incurred by approved societies and Insurance Committees for the purposes of such benefits, and the administration of such benefits shall be paid out of that fund, and the foregoing provisions of this Act, with respect to the National Health Insurance Fund, shall, with the necessary modifications, apply to the Welsh National Health Insurance Fund accordingly.
(3) The powers of the Local Government Board with respect to the distribution of any sum available for the purpose of the provision of sanatoria and other institutions shall, as respects the part thereof apportioned to Wales, be exercised by the Welsh Insurance Commissioners.
(4) If before or within twelve months after the commencement of this Act there is established for Wales by royal charter an association for the purpose of providing sanatoria and other institutions for the treatment and prevention of tuberculosis or such other diseases as the Local Government Board, with the approval of the Treasury, may appoint, the Welsh Insurance Commissioners in making and the Treasury in approving grants from any such sum as is in the last preceding subsection mentioned shall have regard to the provision of such institutions which may have been made, or may be proposed to be made, by the association.
THE LORD BISHOP OF BANGOR THE LORD BISHOP OF BANGOR moved to amend subsection (1) by omitting "such town in Wales as the Treasury may determine," and inserting "Carnarvon." The right rev. Prelate said: I must say I am exceedingly doubtful as to how far the appointment of these Welsh Insurance Commissioners will be acceptable to my countrymen, who are a small body. The population of Wales is only about half that of the county of Lancashire, and we are to have a special Commission co-equal with the Commission sitting in London. I hope they will be paid the same, because although it may be extravagant to pay people who attend to a population of two millions the same as those who attend

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to thirty millions, if they are not paid the same I do not think we shall get efficient people, and there must be many difficulties in the administration of the Act. I propose in my Amendment that the central office of the Commissioners should be in Carnarvon. I think we ought to have the place fixed once and for all by Parliament, and so prevent us quarrelling amongst ourselves with regard to it. Carnarvon is perhaps not as important an industrial centre as Cardiff, but I do not think that consideration would weigh, and I think on the whole it would be the right and most convenient place, especially seeing that it was specially honoured recently by being selected as the place for the Investiture of the Prince of Wales.
Amendment moved—
Page 100, line 40, leave out ("such town in Wales as the Treasury may determine") and insert ("Carnarvon").—(The Lord Bishop of Bangor.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Notwithstanding the patriotic considerations which no doubt suggest themselves, I think we had better leave the question of Carnarvon to the Government. We shall have to consider carefully the merits of a great many places. I should not like to say that Carnarvon—a town which I very much admire—would be the most convenient place from the point of view of accessibility. I know I found a certain amount of inconvenience in getting there the last time I visited it. I think it had better be left to the Government to decide which is the best town.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Amendment moved—
Page 102, line 1, after ("of") insert ("or making grants in aid to").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 82, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 83:
Amendment moved—
Page 102, line 29, after ("Act") insert ("either alone or jointly with any such bodies").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 102, line 38, after ("valuations") insert ("surpluses, deficiencies")
Page 102, line 40, leave out ("or branch").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 83, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 84 agreed to.
Clause 85:
Amendments moved—
Page 104, line 18, after ("cards") insert ("or otherwise")
Page 104, line 21, after ("impressed") insert ("or payments are otherwise to be made")
Page 104, line 22, leave out the first ("or") and insert ("production and").—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 85, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 86 agreed to.
Clause 87:
Disqualifications for unemployment benefit.
87.—(1) A workman who has lost employment by reason of a stoppage of work which was due to a trade dispute at the factory, workshop, or other premises at which he was employed, shall be disqualified for receiving unemployment benefit so long as the stoppage of work continues, except in a case where he has, during the stoppage of work, become bonâ fide employed elsewhere in an insured trade.
Where separate branches of work which are commonly carried on as separate businesses in separate premises are in any case carried on in separate departments on the same premises, each of those departments shall, for the purposes of this provision, be deemed to be a separate factory or workshop or separate premises, as the case may be.
(2) A workman who loses employment through misconduct or who voluntarily leaves his employment without just cause shall be disqualified for receiving unemployment benefit for a period of six weeks from the date when he so lost employment.
(3) A workman shall be disqualified for receiving unemployment benefit whilst he is an inmate of any prison or any workhouse or other institution supported wholly or partly out of public funds, and whilst he is resident temporarily or permanently outside the United Kingdom.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I move to add a new subsection to this clause. This is the only Amendment of substance in my name. I think it ought to be accepted by the House because the two different

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Parts of the Bill are administered by two different authorities, and this is to remove any possible doubt that a workman is not to receive benefits at the same time under both Parts.
Amendment moved—
Page 106, line 5, after ("Kingdom") insert as a new subsection:
("(4) A workman shall be disqualified for receiving unemployment benefit while he is in receipt of any sickness or disablement benefit or allowance under Part I of this Act.")—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 87, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 88:
Amendments moved—
Page 106, line 22, after ("the") insert ("court of")
Page 106, line 29, after the first ("the") insert ("court of")
Page 106, line 37, after ("court") insert ("of referees").—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 88, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 89 and 90 agreed to.
Clause 91:
Amendment moved—
Page 109, line 1, after the first ("and") insert ("for securing").—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 91, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 92:
Amendment moved—
Page 110, line 23, after ("audited") insert ("by the Comptroller and Auditor General").—(Lord Welby.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 92, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 93 and 94 agreed to.
Clause 95:
Amendment moved—
Page 112, line 39, after ("the") insert ("full") and leave out ("full").—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 95, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 96 to 98 agreed to.
Clause 99:
Amendments moved—
Page 114, line 7, after ("under") insert ("any part of")
Page 114, line 14, after ("and") insert ("whereby in respect of such workmen different").—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 99, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 100:
Amendment moved—
Page 114, lines 34 and 35, leave out ("institution for technical instruction") and insert ("place for the purpose").—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 100, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 101 and 102 agreed to.
Clause 103:
Power to extend to other trades.
103. If it appears to the Board that it is desirable to extend the provisions of this Part of this Act to workmen in any trade other than an insured trade, or to vary the definition of "workman" with respect to the age of the persons included therein, either generally or for any particular insured trade, or any particular branch of any such trade, the Board may, with the consent of the Treasury, make, in manner hereinafter provided, a special order extending this Part of this Act to such workmen or so varying the definition of "workman," as the case may be, either without modification or subject to such modifications of rates of contribution or rates or periods of benefit as may be contained in the order, and on any such order being made, this Part, of this Act shall, subject to the modifications (if any) contained in the order, apply as if the trade mentioned in the order were an insured trade, or as if the definition of "workman" were varied in accordance with the order, as the case may tie, and as if the rates of contribution and the rates and periods of benefit mentioned in the order were the rates of contribution and the rates and periods of benefit provided by this Part of this Act in respect of such trade:
Provided that no such order shall be made if the person holding the inquiry in relation to the order reports that the order should not be made, or if the order would, in the opinion of the Treasury, increase the contribution to the unemployment fund out of moneys provided by Parliament to a sum exceeding one million pounds a year before the expiration of three years from the making of the order, and that the rates of contribution mentioned in the order shall not exceed the rates specified in the Eighth Schedule to this Act, and shall be imposed equally as between employers and workmen.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH had an Amendment on the Paper to add the following additional subsections to the clause—
(2) The Board may submit to Parliament for confirmation any Provisional Order made by them in pursuance of this section, but no such Order shall have effect unless and until it is confirmed by Parliament.
(3) If, while a Bill confirming any such Order is pending in either House of Parliament, a petition is presented against any Order comprised therein, the Bill, so far as it relates to that Order, may be referred to a select committee, or if the two Houses and Parliament think fit so to order, to a joint committee of those Houses, and the petitioner shall be allowed to appear and oppose as in the case of Private Bills.
(4) Any Act confirming a Provisional Order made in pursuance of this section may be repealed, altered, or amended by any subsequent Provisional Order made by the Board and confirmed by Parliament.
The noble Lord said: I have had a good many communications about this clause, and many people are averse to giving power to a Government Department to at their own sweet will extend the provisions of this Part of the Bill to any trade, and more especially the agricultural industry is very apprehensive that injustice might be done to them, and they think this ought to have Parliamentary sanction. I have put an Amendment down dealing with this, but I cannot, of course, profess to have the knowledge of the Bill that those who are promoting it have, and since I came down to the House to-night it has been represented to me that Parliamentary sanction is necessary now, and that no Government Department can act without first laying its order on the Table of each House of Parliament for a certain number of days during the session. I ask the question whether there is a necessity for Parliamentary sanction, and whether Parliament can stop such an order if it chooses?
EARL BEAUCHAMP: Yes. First of all the Treasury consent, then there is a public inquiry at which evidence can be taken on oath, and then the person reports, and the order he makes must lie on the Table of both Houses of Parliament for thirty days during which Parliament is sitting, and if an Address is carried against it it falls to the ground; so I think the noble Lord is in perfect safety.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: Then I do not move the Amendment.
Clause 103 agreed to.
Clause 104:
Amendment moved—
Page 118, line 28, after ("occupations") insert ("The provisions of this Part of this Act as to the laying of regulations before Parliament and the presentation of an Address thereon shall apply to special orders made under this section").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 104, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 105:
Amendment moved—
Leave out clause 105.—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clauses 106 to 109 agreed to.
LORD SANDHURST: This proposed new clause of mine after Clause 109 is to determine the position of a woman entitled to maternity benefit, but who otherwise may be destitute. At present a woman who is destitute is admitted to the Poor-law infirmary for her confinement, if she so desires; but if she is not destitute, I understand she can be refused admission. I do not know whether the fact of her receiving maternity benefit under the Act would put her in a position in which she could not be said to be destitute.
Amendment moved—
Insert the following new clause:
(". Where a person who is in receipt of, or entitled to, any benefit under Part I of this Act, or whose husband is entitled to maternity benefit thereunder, applies for admission to any workhouse or infirmary, the board of guardians shall not take any such benefit into consideration ").—(Lord Sandhurst.)
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I think there is a, little obscurity in the way my noble friend has drawn his proposed new clause. Perhaps these words would meet it better, "Where a person who or whose husband is entitled to maternity benefit applies for admission to the maternity ward at any workhouse or infirmary admission thereto shall not be refused on the ground only of such benefit."
LORD SANDHURST: I am obliged to my noble and learned friend, and I withdraw my Amendment in favour of what he proposes.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 109, insert the following new clause:
Where a person who or whose husband is entitled to maternity benefit applies for admission to the maternity ward at any workhouse or infirmary admission thereto shall not be refused on the ground only of such benefit.—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 110 agreed to.
Clause 111:
Amendment moved—
Page 123, line 8, after ("1875") insert ("and the respective dates therein mentioned").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 123, line 10, after ("1888") insert ("and the date of the receiving order; and an Act of Sederunt under the Bankruptcy Amendment (Scotland) Act, 1856, shall be substituted for rules under the Bankruptcy Act, 1883").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 111, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 112 and 113 agreed to.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 113, insert the following new clause:
(".—(1) Sections eighty and eighty-one of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, relating to the making of regulations under that Act, as set out and adapted in the Ninth Schedule to this Act, shall apply to special orders under this Act.
"(2) Before a special order (other than a special order excluding any occupation from the occupations which are to be deemed employment in an insured trade) comes into force it shall be laid before each House of Parliament for a period of not less than thirty days during which the House is sitting, and if either of those Houses before the expiration of those thirty days presents an Address to His Majesty against the order or any part thereof, no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, without prejudice to the making of any new order").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 114:
Amendment moved—
Page 125, line 9, after ("registrar") insert ("or superintendent registrar").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 114, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
First Schedule:
Amendments moved—
Page 126, line 11, after ("piece") insert ("or otherwise").
Page 127, line 4, leave out from ("Corps") to the end of line 7, and insert ("except as otherwise provided in Part I of this Act").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second and Third Schedules agreed to.
Fourth Schedule:
Amendment moved—
Page 133, line 19, leave out from ("benefit") to ("from") in line 21.—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Fourth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Fifth and Sixth Schedules agreed to.
Seventh Schedule:
Amendment moved—
Page 137, line 11, leave out ("Part II of").—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Seventh Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Eighth Schedule agreed to.
Ninth Schedule:
Amendments moved—
Page 138, line 3, leave out ("Part II of")
Page 138, line 4, leave out ("relating to unemployment insurance")
Page 138, line 5, leave out ("Board of Trade") and insert ("authority empowered to make special orders")
Page 138, Page 138, lines 11 and 12, leave out ("Board of Trade") and insert ("authority")
Page 138, line 17, leave out ("Board of Trade") and insert ("authority")
Page 138, line 22, leave out ("Board of Trade") and insert ("authority")
Page 138, line 27, leave out ("Board of Trade") and insert ("authority")
Page 139, line 3, leave out ("Board of Trade") and insert ("authority")
Page 139, line 5, leave out ("Board of Trade") and insert ("authority")
Page 139, line 6, leave out ("Board of Trade") and insert ("authority")
Page 139, line 7, after ("effect") insert:
("(6) For the purposes of this schedule the expression "authority" means the Insurance Commissioners or the Board of Trade, as the case may he."—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Ninth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Tenth Schedule:
Amendment moved—
Page 139, leave out the whole schedule.—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 252.)
[The sitting was suspended at eight o'clock and resumed at a quarter past nine.]

SMALL LANDHOLDERS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendments.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (LORD PENTLAND): I have an amendment to move to Clause 4. It is a consequential amendment, but it is not on the Paper—
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: It is contrary to the Standing Orders to move on Third Reading an Amendment which is not on the Paper.
LORD PENTLAND: I understand it is contrary to usage; but perhaps, by the leave of the House, it may be done in this case.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE:
What is the Amendment?
LORD PENTLAND: It is in Clause 4, page 5, line 23, to leave out the word "Board," and insert the words "Secretary for Scotland." I may say that I have intimated this and the other Amendments to the other side. I can explain to the noble Marquess what it means. It has reference simply to the appointment of the Secretary to the Board of Agriculture. The appointment as it stands now in the clause lies with the Board. It ought to be with the Secretary for Scotland.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I want to know why this cannot be done in another place. If we once begin to infringe the Standing Orders it makes a precedent, and I think there have been precedents created in the last few days. I stand on the rights of the House.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My noble friend the Secretary for Scotland has already spoken, and cannot speak again without the leave of the House. May I say that I understand this is not against the Standing Orders? It may be against custom and usage, but it is not against the Standing Orders to propose an Amendment of this kind. Of course, in matters of this nature we are always anxious to work as far as possible in harmony with noble Lords opposite, and I hope we may be able to come to some joint agreement on the subject.
LORD CLINTON: I think it is the case that "Secretary for Scotland" was in the original Bill.
LORD PENTLAND: That is so. It is only restoring it.
LORD CLINTON: I hope we may see our way to agree with the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Clause 4, page 5, line 23, leave out ("Board") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland").—(Lard Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7:
Powers to facilitate the constitution of new holdings.
7.—(1) It shall be lawful for the landlord of any land and any other person to agree that in respect of such land such person may apply to the Land Court to be registered as a new holder under this Act, and such person may thereupon apply accordingly, and subject to the provisions of this Act may be so registered.
(2) It shall be the duty of the Commissioner for Small Holdings to report from time to time to the Board after due inquiry what demand for small holdings exists in any district, and after consultation (where practicable) with the landlord or landlords what land (if any) is available to meet that demand, without causing undue displacement of farm servants presently employed on or about such land, under what conditions such land is cultivated, and what employment it affords.
(3) Where the Commissioner for Small Holdings is satisfied that there is a demand for small holdings and that suitable land exists it shall be his duty to negotiate with the landlords of such land with a view to the adjustment of a scheme for the registration by agreement of any one or more new holders in respect of such land.
(4) Failing agreement, such land may, otherwise than by agreement, be made available for the registration of new holders in the manner and subject to the conditions herein-after prescribed.
(5) In proceeding under this section, the Board shall take steps to ascertain what land is falling or is about to fall out of lease where the present tenant is not an offerer, and thall preferably select such land (if otherwise suitable) for the constitution of new holdings otherwise than by agreement.
(6) Where a new holder is registered under this section by agreement, the rent agreed between the landlord and the new holder shall not, if the same shall have been agreed upon for a specified period, be altered by the Land Court during such period, and shall not in any case be altered by the Land Court for a period of seven years from the term at which it first becomes payable.
(7) Where, with a view to, or as incidental to, the registration of a new holder or holders in respect of any land, whether by agreement or otherwise, the Board are of opinion, upon consideration of a report by the Commissioner for Small Holdings, that assistance should be provided for the purpose of dividing, fencing, or otherwise preparing or adapting the land, making Occupation roads, or executing other works, such as works for the provision of drainage or water supply, or erecting or adapting a dwelling-house or dwelling-houses or other buildings, or for any similar purpose, the Board may provide such assistance by way of loan or (except as regards dwelling-houses or other buildings) by way of gift, and subject to such conditions as they may prescribe. Conditions so prescribed and the provisions for their enforcement or for the case of their violation shall be as effectual as if they were contained in this Act.
(8) Where the Board are of opinion that damage or injury will be done to any tenant in respect that the land forms part or the whole of his tenancy, they shall pay compensation as may be agreed between the Board and such tenant.
(9) Where the Commissioner for Small Holdings reports that the landlord refuses to negotiate, or where, after submitting to the landlord a scheme for the constitution of one or more new holdings on the land, he reports that no agreement can be reached, it shall be lawful for the Board, after due notice and after hearing any party who desires to be heard, to intimate to the landlord and to other parties concerned that it is in the public interest that one or more new holdings should be constituted on the land in accordance with the said scheme, and that they propose to apply to the Land Court to make an order or orders for the constitution of one or more new holdings on the land in accordance with such scheme, to be occupied by new holders, at a fair rent and upon such terms and conditions not inconsistent with the Landholders Acts as the Land Court consider just; and thereafter to apply accordingly.
(10) Before snaking such an order, the Land Court shall give all parties having a right or interest in the land an opportunity of being heard.
(11) The Land Court shall thereafter determine, with due regard to the provisions of the Landholders Acts, and by order or orders declare—

(a) In respect of what land, if any, specified in the scheme, one or more holdings for new holders may respectively be constituted, and up to what date the power to constitute them otherwise than by agreement may be exercised;

(b) What is the fair rent for each new holding;

(c) What land, if any, specified in the scheme is to be excluded therefrom; and

(d) Whatever else may be necessary for the purpose of malting the scheme effective and of adjusting the rights of all parties interested in or affected by the proceedings:

Provided that, where the Land Court are of opinion that damage or injury will be done to the letting value of the land to be occupied by a new holder or new holders, or of any farm of which such land forms part, or to any tenant in respect that the land forms part or the whole of his tenancy, or to any landlord either in respect of an obligation to take over sheep stock at a valuation or in respect of any depreciation in the value of the estate of which the land forms part in consequence id and directly attributable to the constitution of the new holding or holdings as proposed, they shall require the Board, in the event of the scheme being proceeded with, to pay compensation to such amount as the Land Court determine after giving parties an opportunity of being hearth and, if they so desire, of leading evidence in the matter: Provided always that it shall be competent for any person aggrieved by the determination of the Land Court, if the amount in dispute exceeds four hundred pounds, to require the Land Court to state and sign the case upon which the question arose, setting forth the evidence, together with the determination thereon, and to transmit such case for the decision of either division of the Court of Session, subject to such regulations as may be prescribed by Act of Sederunt, and such decision shall be final.
(12) In or after making such an order, the Land Court (without prejudice to their other powers) may do, provide, or decide anything incidental to or consequential on such an order as if it were an order under section twelve of the Act of 1886, and may, if they think fit, provide

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for the incorporation with the order, subject to the necessary adaptations, of any provisions of the Lands Clauses Acts which appear to them requisite for carrying the order into effect.
(13) Upon such an order providing for the constitution of one or more new holdings on any land being issued, the Board may proceed to make it effective by entering on the land, carrying out works, and otherwise as may be required (due compensation to such amount as may be agreed or as, in case of dispute, may be determined by the Land Court being made for surface damage) and may negotiate with one or more duly qualified applicants with a view to their registration as new holders in respect of the land.
(14) A new holder shall not be duly qualified for registration otherwise than by agreement who does not satisfy the Board as to his ability to fulfil the obligations incumbent on him.
(15) The Board shall give reasonable consideration to objections stated by a landlord to any applicant for a new holding, and ceteris paribus shall give a preference to applicants preferred by the landlord.
(16) Except by agreement, a new holder shall not be registered—

(a) in respect of any land being or forming part of a farm not exceeding one hundred and fifty acres occupied by a person who has no personal interest in any other farm, or in the ease of a farm so occupied which exceeds one hundred and fifty acres but is wholly or mainly pastoral, not exceeding an annual value as entered in the valuation roll of eighty pounds: Provided that nothing herein contained shall operate to prevent the registration otherwise than by agreement of two or more new holders in respect of the whole of such farm, not being a farm wholly or mainly pastoral, where no other land is available in the neighbourhood of any existing village or township; or

(b) in respect of any land being or forming part of a farm occupied subject to a lease which was in force at Whitsunday nineteen hundred and eleven, so long as the lease remains in force.

(17) All parties being possessed of lands or any right or interest therein who under the Lands Clauses Acts have power on behalf of themselves or of others to convey and dispose of such lands, or of such rights therein for the purposes mentioned in those Acts, shall have the like power to enter into ally agreement or give any consent for the purposes of this section.
(18) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, 1897, the expression "landlord" in this section includes the Board in respect of any land purchased under that Act and transferred to the Board under the provisions of this Act.
(19) Any member of the Land Court, or the Board, or any person authorised in writing by the Land Court or by the Board, may for the purposes of the Landholders Acts enter upon and inspect any lands or buildings at all reasonable hours on any lawful day after due notice has been given to the owner and occupier of such lands or buildings.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN moved to omit from subsection (11) the words—
"the Land Court are of opinion that damage or injury will be done to the letting value of the land to be occupied by a new holder or new holders, or of any farm of which such land forms part, or to any tenant in respect that the land forms part or the whole of his tenancy, or to any landlord either in respect of an obligation to take over sheep stock at a valuation or in respect of any depreciation in the value of the estate of which the land forms part in consequence of and directly attributable to the constitution of the new holding or holdings as proposed, they shall require the Board, in the event of the scheme being proceeded with, to pay compensation to such amount as the Land Court determine after giving parties an opportunity of being heard and, if they so desire, of leading evidence in the matter: Provided always that it shall be competent for any person aggrieved by the determination of the Land Court, if the amount in dispute exceeds four hundred pounds, to require the Land Court to state and sign the ease upon which the question arose, setting forth the evidence, together with the determination thereon, and to transmit such case for the decision of either division of the Court of Session, subject to such regulations as may be prescribed by Act of Sederunt, and such decision shall be final."
and to insert in their place the words—
"a landlord claims to be entitled to compensation in respect of any damage or injury to be done to the letting value of the land to be occupied by a new holder or new holders or of any farm of which such land forms part, or in respect of an obligation to take over sheep stock at a valuation or in respect of any depreciation in the value of the estate or which the land forms part in consequence of and directly attributable to the constitution of the new holding or holdings as proposed, or where a tenant claims to be entitled to compensation in respect that the land forms part or the whole of his tenancy, if the landlord or the tenant and the Board fail to agree as to the amount and time and mode of payment of the compensation, the difference shall be settled by arbitration in accordance with the provisions of the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, with the substitution of the Lord President of the Court of Session for the Board wherever occurring therein."
The noble Earl said: I have taken the very unusual course of proposing at this late stage of the Bill an Amendment on my own Amendment which your Lordships accepted when we were in Committee. Your Lordships will remember that on this side of the House we have maintained all along, and we are still of the opinion, that the Land Court is not a body well suited, indeed it is not suited at all, to determine whether any damage has been done in consequence of the action taken, and certainly not to determine what the amount of that damage, if there be damage,

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is to be. We insisted that there must be an appeal from this Court, and with that view I proposed an Amendment, which your Lordships accepted in the Committee stage, to give an appeal to the Court of Session. An appeal, of course, means two hearings—the first hearing before the original body, and the second hearing before the Court of Appeal. We were well aware that this second hearing would involve a certain amount of delay and expense, and it was for that reason, and for that reason alone, that in my Amendment I suggested that smaller questions of damage could be left to the Land Court up to £400, and that anything in excess of that must be open to appeal. The Government objected to that Amendment, and I suppose I am not divulging a secret when I say that representations were made to us to see whether we could not suggest an alternative to that course. Not merely in regard to this Bill but other Bills affecting Scotland we have endeavoured to do our best to meet the wishes of the Government as far as we possibly could, and therefore in this case we suggest the alternative which now appears in my name on the Paper, and which proposes an entirely different course from that in the Bill.
Our proposal is to take away questions of compensation from the Land Court altogether, and place them in the hands of an arbiter to be appointed by the President of the Court of Session. This Amendment was framed for the purpose of meeting the objections of the Government. The first objection of the Government, as I understand, was that they were opposed to any law Court or other holy revising the decisions of the Land Court. In the next place, they objected to my former Amendment because they said that the Court of Session was not accustomed to deal with these cases, and they did not think that it was an advisable Court to refer the matter to, and they took further objections on the ground of the amount of delay and expense.
My present proposal seems to meet all these objections. It proposes an entirely different course of proceeding. It removes from the Land Court all questions relating to whether damage has been done, or how much damage has been done, and it places those questions in the hands of a single arbiter, to be appointed by the Lord
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President of the Court of Session. It is not a case of appeal at all, because an appeal means two hearings. This is a simple proceeding, and involves one hearing and one hearing only. It does not override in any way the Land Court, because the Land Court would not have the question of compensation before it. It is a cheap way and an expeditions way, and as far as I am able to judge it meets all the objections which were raised to my former Amendment by the Government.
I do not think I need trouble you by saying any more with regard to my Amendment. The details are really all reprinted, or for the most part re-printed, from the subsection as it previously stood in the Bill. But Lord Pentland proposes an Amendment in lien of mine, which I am not going to discuss in detail. I will merely take the substance of this Amendment, which is very much the same as mine, but with one very important difference. What the noble Lord proposes is that in all eases up to £500 these questions shall be decided by the Land Court, and that in cases which exceed £500 the person desiring to petition should have his choice as to whether he would appeal to the Land Court or appeal to an arbiter appointed by the Lord Ordinary. The Government will naturally say to me, "Why do you, having accepted the principle up to £400 of questions to be settled by the Land Court, object on this occasion to questions, which we will say are nominal, being settled by the Land Court?" My answer is perfectly simple. The two cases stand on an entirely different footing. The first case is a case of appeal. It is a case of a second hearing. We were anxious to save expense, and it was for that reason and not because we desired to place the matter in the hands of the Land Court that we said, "In these circumstances we will make this proposal, that up to a certain amount the matter shall be decided by the Land Court." But this new proposal of mine, and of the noble Lord's, too, is not a case of a second hearing. It is simply setting up one tribunal to settle once and for all these questions of compensation. When you set up this tribunal, all the reasons for making a distinction between large and small cases of compensation at once disappear. I have endeavoured to explain to your Lordships as shortly and as clearly as I can the difference between the two Amendments.

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In the one case it is a question of a double hearing, and for that reason no doubt it might be desirable to avoid unnecessary delay and expense. In this case it is a question of a single hearing, and therefore I cannot see any reason whatever for drawing any distinction between cases of large or of small damages. I move my amendment.
Amendment moved—
Clause 7, page 9, line 22, leave out from ("where") to the end of line 43 and insert ("a landlord claims to be entitled to compensation in respect of any damage or injury to be done to the letting value of the land to be occupied by a new holder or new holders or of any farm of which such land forms part, or in respect of an obligation to take over sheep stock at a valuation or in respect of any depreciation in the value of the estate or which the land forms part in consequence of and directly attributable to the constitution of the new holding or holdings as proposed, or where a tenant claims to be entitled to compensation in respect that the land forms part or the whole of his tenancy, if the landlord or the tenant and the Board fail to agree as to the amount and time and mode of payment of the compensation, the difference shall be settled by arbitration in accordance with the provisions of the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, with the substitution of the Lord President of the Court of Session for the Board wherever occurring therein").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
LORD PENTLAND: The noble Earl has stated, I think accurately, the course that has been followed in regard to these Amendments; and if you will look at the Amendment which I have put down on behalf of the Government your Lordships will see that it approximates very closely to that proposed by the noble Earl. It has the differences which he points out and it has also the special difference of leaving the alternative open to the litigant to take either course he wishes. I do not intend to argue the matter, but I would appeal to your Lordships. We have, I think, shown a bona fides in this matter and a desire to meet the wishes of the Opposition, and if there are any details in the Amendment I have put on the Paper in which I can further approximate to the views which the majority of your Lordships hold in this matter, I shall be very glad to do my best to meet them.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: The point raised in the Amendments on the
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Paper is a highly controversial one, and I one with regard to which we feel very strongly on this side of the House. I cannot nevertheless help hoping, after carefully comparing the two Amendments, that they afford the material for a satisfactory arrangement between the two sides of the House. Our point of departure has throughout been our strong objection to allowing the Land Court an absolutely free hand to deal with these questions of compensation. The Land Court is in this position. It can take land either from the owner of the land or the occupier of the land, and it can distribute that land to other persons; it can fix the rent that these other persons are to pay, and under the Bill as it originally stood the Court was able to fix the amount of compensation to the dispossessed party. In our view that was highly improper. It did not seem right that a newly-created department of this kind should have both the power of dealing administratively with these questions and also of deciding judicially what amount of compensation should be paid to any one aggrieved. To meet that feeling, the noble Earl, Lord Camperdown, proposed an Amendment which the House accepted. Under that Amendment, in all cases where a claim exceeded the sum of £400 there was to be an appeal from the Land Court to the Court of Session. We understood that His Majesty's Government entertained a very strong objection to that proposal. They objected to the Land Court being overridden by the Court of Session, and they also suggested that the procedure proposed by the noble Earl involved unnecessary expense to the litigants. Thereupon the noble Earl has put this alternative proposal on the Paper, and I must say I think he has made a very fair attempt to meet the points raised by the Government.
The noble Earl proposes that this question of compensation should be taken out of the hands of the Land Court and handed over to a process of arbitration with which we are all familiar. Now, as my noble friend very forcibly urged, this Amendment does really meet the point raised by the Government, because instead of having two hearings and two decisions you have under his plan only one decision and one set of proceedings. I understand that the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland does not quite like that proposal, and he meets it by an alternative which I

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think to a great extent does meet the requirements of the noble Earl. I understand that what Lord Pentland proposes is this, that in cases where a claim amounts to a sum exceeding £500, either the owner or the occupier should be placed in a position of being able to ask that the matter shall be disposed of, not by the Land Court, but by a process of arbitration, and the decision has to be given by an arbitrator appointed by the Lord Ordinary. I suggest to Lord Camperdown that he might entertain this proposal. Personally I prefer the proposal of the noble Earl. It seems to me the simplest and the most logical, but in cases of this kind the two sides of the House ought to make an endeavour to meet one another, and I think it is, perhaps, fair for noble Lords opposite to insist to some extent upon the fact that the noble Earl is in a way committed to the idea that cases of moderate amounts might be left to the discretion of the Land Court.
I should like to add that if we did accept the Amendment of the noble Lord opposite as an alternative, there are two or three points in it which might very well be reconsidered. For example, under the Amendment a landlord or tenant is required to intimate that he desires to go to arbitration instead of having his case dealt with by the Land Court within seven days after the issue of the order. That seems to me to be a very unfair and drastic proposal. Take the case of a large tenant farmer who finds himself suddenly threatened with the deprivation of a considerable part of his holding. He, of course, will want time to consult his friends and advisers, and he very likely will want to call in a valuer. A period of seven days seems to me to be altogether unreasonable. I very much hope that the noble Lord will be able to tell us that if we take his Amendment he will be in a position to give us a longer period than seven days. Then I cannot see, if we are to accept his Amendment in principle, why the limit should be fixed so high as £500. The limit of £500 is very high, and I should have thought that a much lower minimum might have been fixed.
There is another suggestion I should like to make with reference to the words in the last seven or eight lines at the end
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of the last paragraph on page 2 of the printed Amendments. Under the Amendment as it now stands a scheme for new holdings might be put forward by the Land Court, and that scheme might be proceeded with through all its stages. The award or order might be made, and then at the last moment the Land Court would be able to drop the whole thing. It might find that the expense was prohibitory or something of that kind, and it might decide that the scheme should not be proceeded with. In a case of that kind I think words ought to be inserted with the object of recouping any of the parties who have been put to expense in consequence of the action of the Land Court, at any rate their out-of-pocket expenses. I think the noble Lord will find that the English Small Holdings Act contains a provision designed to cover this particular point, a provision in which it is expressly laid down that where schemes have been proposed in this way and then dropped by the responsible departments the parties should be indemnified for any expense to which they may have been put. I hope the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland will kindly consider these points, and if he is able to meet us in regard to them I would advise my noble friend Lord Camperdown to accept the alternative suggested to him as being one which, not completely, perhaps, but at any rate to a material extent, satisfies the requirements he has laid down.
LORD CLINTON: My noble friend Lord Camperdown has pointed out that the object of his Amendment is to meet as far as possible the objection of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill to our former suggestion of an appeal. The noble Lord has told us, and I am grateful to him for doing so, that in principle he accepts this scheme of arbitration, but I should like to point out that while he accepts it in principle he very largely destroys it by insisting upon this large limit of £500, below which there can be no arbitration. If the noble Lord will consider the number of cases which will come up for compensation under this Bill, he will recognise that there will be very few cases indeed over that sum. From our experience of the working of the English Small Holdings Act we know that such cases are extremely rare. I do not like to say there are none, because there may be some cases of which I do not know;

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but I have never known a case of compensation where the demand has come up to that sum. If the noble Lord lays down that there is to be no arbitration under £500, he practically does away with the arbitration scheme altogether. I am sure that is not his wish. I believe, in accepting the principle of arbitration, he wants to give us arbitration fairly, but I am certain we are getting no advantage at all out of that concession unless we have a much lower limit than £500.
My noble friend has stated quite plainly his reasons for thinking that there should be no limit at all, and I agree with him in principle. I think that logically there should be no limit, but we have gone so far in the direction of endeavouring to meet the noble Lord opposite in this matter that it would be almost ludicrous if we fell out on a comparatively small point. We have built up compromise on the top of compromise until we have lost almost everything—perhaps not everything, but almost everything which we set out to gain. I do not want to belittle the concessions which the noble Lord in charge of the Bill has given us. He has met us very fairly, I admit, on certain matters, but we have lost by compromise, as I have said, a vast amount of what we went out to gain. But it would be foolish on both sides if we refused at this moment, at this very late hour, to accept a reasonable settlement of this matter. The noble Lord encourages me to say this because he has recognised that we do approximate very closely to one another in this matter, and he tells us that he is perfectly prepared to consider any matter of detail. I hope he will consider this limit a matter of detail. I think it is, and I hope he will be able to propose to us a limit which we on this side of the House will be able to accept.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I am sorry to strike a discordant note, but I entirely disapprove of the proposal which is now made. It may be that I am powerless to resist it, but there is all the difference in the world between arbitration and a Land Court. The whole argument the other night of the noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack, of the Secretary for Scotland, and of the Lord Advocate in another place, was to the effect that arbitration had been successful in these matters from 1845 down to the present
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time. Arbitration has been successful, but for this reason—that those who were concerned in arbitration, whether landlord or tenant, have had the right to agree upon the individual to whom they will submit their case; they have, as a rule, agreed, and if they have not agreed they have, at any rate, agreed to accept his award. That is a wholly different thing from being put at the absolute discretion of a body of men over whom they have no control. From their decision there is to be no appeal, and the whole argument which is drawn from the success of the previous Acts, either of the Agricultural Holdings Act or any other Act, is beside the point which we are deciding to-day. I entirely approve of the Amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Camperdown. If he would go to a Division I should be glad to support him, but I know perfectly well that he is not going to do so. I have probably no power of stopping what is going on, but this is one of the most fatal moves that, in the whole of my experience, has ever been made in the interests of the best class of agriculturists in Scotland, and I shall continue to protest against it in any way that I have power.
LORD PENTLAND: If, by your Lordships' leave, I may say a word in response to what has been said by noble Lords opposite on the Amendments which are before the House, I will attempt to place before you the position of the Government. As noble Lords know well, the Government are not in a position to command a majority in this House, and therefore it will not be my suggestion that the Government should prolong the proceedings to-night by taking divisions on any of these detailed points, and I should greatly hope, in view of the conciliatory spirit which I think is present on both sides of the House, that we might be able to adjust this matter. I assure your Lordships, on behalf of the Government, that there is every desire to meet the views which have been expressed in regard to these Amendments. I will not weary your. Lordships by arguing this matter of principle. You are well aware of the position which the Government have taken up throughout and which we still hold, but I do wish to respond to the suggestion which has fallen from the noble Marquess, and to say that if he should succeed in advising the noble Earl, Lord Camperdown, to accept my Amendment as the basis for a settlement of this question,

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I see no difficulty whatever myself in meeting him upon the points already enumerated by the noble Marquess.
I will mention them if I may. In the first place, there is the question of the notice, which is seven days in the Bill. I do not know whether fourteen or twenty-one days would meet the views of your Lordships. Shall we say twenty-one days? [The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: Hear, hear.] Then comes the question of the amount of the limit. I regret extremely any reduction of the amount of the limit, for the reasons which I have stated on former occasions, but I do not wish to stand out on the amount, and if your Lordships wish £400, or £300, instead of £500, I am not going to stand out on a point of that kind. The Government, I assure your Lordships, are anxious to meet you, except on matters of principle where they feel they cannot give way. There is another Amendment which the noble Marquess desired, and that is that the matter of expense should be met in the case of a scheme which is ultimately dropped by the Board of Agriculture. The noble Marquess suggested that it was hardly fair that an owner should be put to the expense of his part in the proceedings and that at the close, and perhaps after hearing the award for compensation, the Board of Agriculture should withdraw from the scheme. The noble Marquess suggested that the owner should be indemnified for the costs to which he had been put in this respect. I am, quite ready to meet your Lordships in that matter, and I have had a clause drafted which I believe meets that demand.
There is one other suggestion I should like to make, and that is that after the word "and" in my Amendment ["to be settled by arbitration instead of by the Land Court, the same shall be settled accordingly; and"] these words should be inserted, "at any time within fourteen days after the said intimation." I think that will make this a more complete scheme. I am advised that we must have some limit of tim3. I do not adhere strictly to the proposed limit of time, but I think fourteen days gives ample time considering that it follows on twenty-one days, and I do not anticipate that your Lordships will take any objection to that. I hope I have made the position of the Government quite clear, and I assure your
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Lordships that we are very anxious not to delay proceedings beyond a reasonable limit. May I mention one further point? This is Third Reading, and it is, of course, the only stage which we have left for the consideration of this Bill in this House. There are, of course, objections—the noble Lord opposite has drawn attention to them—to inserting at this stage Amendments which are not on the Paper but it would be a great convenience if your Lordships would allow such Amendments as we agree to to be inserted at this stage, without prejudice to any verbal Amendments which may be made elsewhere.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I have listened very attentively to all that has been said on both sides of the House in regard to this matter. I still do not consider that this Court is a body well suited either to settle whether compensation is due or the amount that ought to be paid. But in consideration of all that has been said, and more especially after what has fallen from the Secretary for Scotland, for I understand that whatever Amendments are inserted by this House to-night the Government will press in the other House of Parliament with all the power at their command—
LORD PENTLAND: That is so.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: On that understanding I shall have much pleasure in following the advice which was tendered to me by the noble Marquess, and shall, by the leave of the House, withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
The Amendment standing in the name of Lord Pentland was as follows:
Clause 7, page 9, line 35, leave out from ("matter") to end of line 43 and insert:
("Provided always that where within seven days after the issue by the Land Court of an order under this subsection a landlord or a tenant, as the case may be, intimates to the Land Court and to the Board that he claims compensation to an amount exceeding five hundred pounds and that he desires to have the question whether damage or injury entitling him to compensation as aforesaid will be done, together with the amount of such compensation (if any), to be settled by arbitration instead of by the Land Court, the same shall be settled accordingly; and, failing agreement with the Board as to the

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appointment of an arbiter, it shall be lawful for him to apply to the Lord Ordinary on the bills for such appointment, and the Lord Ordinary shall forthwith on receipt of such application nominate a single arbiter to decide the questions aforesaid, whose award shall be final, and binding on the Board, in the event of the scheme being proceeded with; and, if no final award be given within three months from the date when the arbiter is nominated, the questions aforesaid shall be decided by the Land Court as herein-before provided.
"In determining the amount of compensation under any provision of this Act no additional allowance shall be made on account of the constitution or enlargement of any holding being compulsory.")
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND, in moving this Amendment, intimated that he desired to amend it by inserting the modifications to which he had consented by way of compromise. These were to substitute "twenty-one days" for "seven days "at the beginning of the proviso; to omit "five hundred pounds" and insert "three hundred pounds"; to insert "at any time within fourteen days after such intimation" after "and" ["shall be settled accordingly; and"]; and to add a further provision that the Second Schedule of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act of 1908 should apply to any such arbitration with the exception of the paragraphs (1), (5), (10), (11), and that in the event of the scheme not being proceeded with the expenses of parties reasonably incurred in connection with the arbitration should be paid by the Board.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I should like to hear some explanation of this last Amendment. I have heard nothing of this before, and I frankly say I do not understand a word of what is intended. This is legislation by reference, without an opportunity of its being considered, and to insert such an Amendment at this stage when it is not even printed is establishing a precedent which has not been established before.
LORD PENTLAND: This Amendment is designed to meet the suggestion made by the noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition, that in cases of the withdrawal of a scheme the expenses of the arbitration cast upon the parties should be met. Of coarse, if the House would prefer that this Amendment should not appear in the Bill, I am in the hands of the House.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I thoroughly enter into the objection taken by Lord Balfour of Burleigh, that it is inexpedient as a rule to introduce Amendments on Third Reading which have not been put down on the Paper, but, unfortunately, usage and custom are being departed from much more frequently than used to be the case, and I think that in this matter we might as well swallow the camel. The noble Lord has not had an opportunity of seeing the Amendment, but I have been fortunate enough to have had that opportunity, and I have looked at it with the assistance of persons better able to judge the matter than I am and I am hound to say that it seems to me to meet the case.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I may point out that not only is this going to be done in this House without notice, but if this Amendment goes to another place it will also have to be done there without notice, and we are entirely in the hands of those who have taken the responsibility of drafting it. It seems to me a most improper proceeding and utterly derogatory to the dignity of Parliament, and with all my strength I protest against it.
On Question, Lord Pentland's Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved, after the word "eleven" in paragraph (b) of subsection (16), to insert "or in the case of land within the counties specified in section nineteen of the Act of 1886, at Whitsunday nineteen hundred and six." The noble Lord said: I think this Amendment requires a little explanation. This is a point on which there has been a difference between the two sides of the House. Your Lordships will remember that a saving of leases was introduced into the Bill. I wish, first, to remind your Lordships that there is no such saving in the English Act passed three years ago. The saving was introduced into this Bill because of the fear of the tribunal, of the inadequacy of the compensation, and injustice and so forth. I think for the real working of this scheme the whole of this subsection should go out of the Bill. But there is objection to that. I am very anxious to meet the views of the Opposition in this matter, and to reduce our differences

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to the lowest possible degree. We have a tribunal which, I think, satisfies us. We have a compensation which satisfies us, and therefore everything really has been done which should reassure us and put us in the position of the English Act, in which there is no such saving. I do not even ask your Lordships to do that. But I do ask, so far as the crofting counties are concerned, that my Amendment should be inserted for this reason. At present there is no restriction, so far as the currency of leases is concerned, upon the power of the Crofters Commission to make enlargements; and if there is a distinction drawn between making enlargements and making new holdings, I have only to remind you that we have now provided a compensation and a tribunal and so forth to meet that difference between enlargements and new holdings. From what I have said your Lordships will see that if you do not allow current leases to be open to the operation of this Bill—that is to say, leases from 1906 onwards—you are actually going back on the crofting counties, and you are depriving those counties of opportunities which they have at present under the 1886 Act. I have, I hope, shown your Lordships that I have gone as far as possible to meet the objections on this score. I have confined myself simply to continuing the existing state of things and preventing this Act taking a backward step. I hope your Lordships will see your way to meet the Government in this respect.
Amendment moved—
Clause 7, page 10, line 41, after ("eleven") insert ("or in the case of land within the counties specified in section nineteen of the Act of 1886, at Whitsunday nineteen hundred and six").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Drafting Amendment to Clause 15 agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Clause 17, page 16, line 5, leave out ("appeal") and insert ("alternative arbitration").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND: The words in Clause 25 which I move to omit are no
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longer necessary owing to the alterations we have made in the Bill.
Amendment moved—
Clause 25, page 19, line 16, leave out from beginning of line to ("provided") in line 17.—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 32:
Provisions as to statutory small tenants.
32. With respect to statutory small tenants the following provisions shall have effect:—
(1) A statutory small tenant means and includes a tenant from year to year, or leaseholder, not otherwise disqualified in terms of this Act, in regard to whom section two of this Act provides that he shall not be held an existing yearly tenant or a qualified leaseholder, and the successors of such tenant or leaseholder in the holding, being his heirs, legatees (if within the relationship specified in section sixteen of the Act of 1886), or assignees (if assignation be permitted by the lease):
(2) Except so far as expressly applied by this Act, the Landholders Acts shall not apply to statutory small tenants:
(3) A holding which is or has been held by a statutory small tenant shall not be merged in or amalgamated with any other holding as defined in the Agritural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, except with the sanction of the Board:
(4) Except in any case where the landlord satisfies the Land Court that there is reasonable ground of objection to a statutory small tenant (hereinafter in this section referred to as the tenant) and the Land Court find accordingly, the tenant for the time being shall, notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary, be entitled on any determination of the tenancy to a renewal thereof on the terms and conditions herein-after specified:
(5) Except so far as varied by this section, the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Acts, 1908 and 1910, shall apply in the case of the tenancy of a statutory small tenant in the same manner as if the tenancy were a lease, and for the purposes of those Acts and otherwise the tenancy, as renewed from time to time, shall be deemed to be a lease current for the period of renewal:
(6) Subject to the provisions of the last-mentioned Acts and of this section, the landlord and the tenant may agree upon the terms and conditions of the renewed tenancy:
(7) Failing agreement, the landlord or the tenant may have an equitable rent, or the period for which the tenancy is to be renewed, determined by arbitration in accordance with the provisions of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, as amended by this section:
(8) In determining the rent the arbiter shall, so far as practicable, act on his own

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knowledge and experience, taking into consideration all the circumstances of the case, holding, and district, including the rent at which the holding has been let, the proposed conditions of the renewed tenancy, the improvements made by the landlord and tenant respectively, and the then condition and value of such improvements; and shall fix as the rent to be paid by the tenant the rent which, in his opinion, would be an equitable rent for the holding between the landlord and the tenant as a willing lessor and a willing lessee: Provided that he shall allow no rent in respect of any improvements made by or at the expense of the tenant or any predecessor in title for which he or his predecessor, as the ease may be, has not received payment or fair consideration from the landlord or his predecessor:
(9) Subject as aforesaid, the terms and conditions of the renewed tenancy shall (except so far as agreed to be varied) be those of the determining tenancy, in the same way and to the same effect, as nearly as may be, as if the tenancy had been continued for the full period of renewal under tacit relocation, and the tenant shall be entitled, if he so desires, to a renewal on those terms and conditions:
(10) The Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Acts, 1908 and 1910, as applied by this section, shall be varied as follows (that is to say):—
In the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, the Land Court shall be substituted for the Board, and where in terms of that schedule a person is nominated as arbiter by the Land Court his remuneration shall be paid by the Land Court:
(11) In the event of the landlord on the renewal of the tenancy failing to provide such buildings as will enable the tenant to cultivate the holding according to the terms of the lease or agreement or at any time failing to maintain the buildings and permanent improvements required for the cultivation and reasonable equipment of the holding, in so far as the tenant is not required at common law or by express agreement in writing to do so, it shall be lawful for the tenant to apply to the Land Court to so find and declare, and if the Land Court after hearing parties (if they desire to be heard and after giving the landlord (if he so desires) an opportunity of remedying his failure as aforesaid) shall so find and declare, the tenant shall as from the date specified in the finding become a landholder, and the definition of landholder in this Act shall include such tenant and his successors in the holding, being his heirs or legatees:
(12) It shall he lawful for the Board to provide model forms of agreements for optional use by landlords and tenants under this section, provided that nothing herein contained shall make the use of any such form compulsory:
(13) In the event of any dispute arising as to whether a person is a statutory small tenant within the meaning of this Act, it shall be competent for the Land Court to determine such question summarily:
(14) Subsection four of section six, section twenty, and section twenty-seven of the Act of 1886, section two of the Act of 1887 down to the word "summarily," and subsection nineteen of section seven, subsection four of section eight, section twelve, section twenty-five, and subsection one of section twenty-six of this Act shall, with the substitution of "statutory small tenant" for "landholder," and "equitable rent" for "fair rent," and with any other necessary modifications, apply for the purposes of this section as they apply for the purposes of the Landholders Acts:
(15) Without prejudice to any agreement between the parties, the Land Court may, on the application of the landlord, and upon being satisfied that he desires to resume the holding or part thereof for building, planting, feuing, or some other reasonable purpose having relation to the good of the holding or the estate (including any purpose specified in section nineteen of this Act), authorise the resumption thereof by the landlord, subject to the payment of the like compensation to the tenant in respect of improvements on or in connection with the land resumed, to which a tenant would be entitled under the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, on the determination of his tenancy, and in addition, where part only of the holding is resumed, to such reduction of rent as may be agreed between the parties, or, in case of dispute, determined by the Land Court.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved to omit from subsection (7) all words after "Failing agreement, the landlord or the tenant may," and to insert the words of his Amendment. The noble Lord said: This Amendment is one which reverses the decision of your Lordships at a previous stage of this Bill, and which I hope you will see fit to allow to be embodied in the Bill. I do not think I need explain it at any length. You are familiar with it, and I understand that you are not averse, in view of the alterations which have been made in the Bill, to accepting this Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Clause 32, page 26, line 37, leave out from beginning of line to end of line 41 and insert ("apply to the Land Court to fix an equitable rent, or to fix the period for which the tenancy is to be renewed, and the Land Court may thereafter determine the rent to be paid by the tenant, or the period of renewal, or both, as the case may be ").—(Lord Pentland.)
LORD CLINTON: I view with real regret the noble Lord's intention to reverse the decision to which this House came on a previous occasion. I have always viewed the substitution of arbitration for the Land Court in fixing rents under Clause 32 as of the greatest, importance. I know that it was the only method which in any way reconciled my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh to the provisions of this clause. He thought, as we all did, that the powers to which this clause referred should have been left out of the Bill altogether, but the noble Lord refrained from opposing the clause in Committee because the system of arbitration was adopted. But I am bound to say that this system of arbitration was shorn of almost all its value by the refusal of the noble Lord to accept Amendments which subsequently moved. I explained my views in. Committee at some length, and do not want to trouble you further on the point, except to say this, that the result of the clause which provides that the Land Court shall pay the remuneration of the arbitrator only in cases where that Court, itself appoints him is absolutely destructive of all form of mutual arbitration. I feel quite certain that, under ordinary arbitrations under the Holdings Act, the better method of agreement between the landlord and the tenant as to who should be the arbiter to settle matters in dispute between them will be destroyed by the decision to pay the remuneration of the arbitrator only in cases where they have failed to come to an agreement, and to make them pay the remuneration in those cases where they have agreed upon the arbitrator. This will practically take away the whole value from the system of arbitration.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The special pleading of the noble Lord opposite does not reconcile me to the abandonment of our Amendment. As long as the House understands what it is doing, it is for the House to decide; but by the abandonment of our Amendment Parliament will be allowing, for the first time, a landlord who has done his duty and carried out the whole of the improvements upon the holding, to be put in the same category as the man who has done nothing. The basis of the Crofter Act and the Irish Land Act was that the tenant acquired an interest in the holding by doing improvements of a permanent nature. That was a reasonable and legitimate ground for giving him
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an interest, and that could only be decided by an independent tribunal. But in this case, for the first time, you are giving to the tenant who has done absolutely nothing for the permanent improvement of the holding, who has come in for a period of years only under a lease, an interest which in course of time will grow, and must grow into that dual interest which has been the curse of Irish land. So long as the House knows what it is doing, I have nothing to say; but that it should do it with its eyes open, and only with its eyes open, is the object of my making these remarks. For the first time you are giving to a tenant an interest which he has not acquired, to which he has no moral or equitable right, and you are giving it to him by Statute. To my mind, there is no distinction—and that has been admitted by the Lord Advocate in another place—there is no logical distinction between what is above and what is below £50. There is no logical distinction between the man who holds a lease and the man who does not hold a lease. You are in principle and in fact breaking down by this action to-night the whole distinction which has hitherto been preserved. You are giving to the man who has come in temporarily and done nothing at all precisely the same right as if he had earned and paid for a permanent interest in the holding. I know I stand alone, but I make a most earnest -and respectful protest against the course which is proposed to be pursued.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I entirely agree with the noble Lord who has just sat down upon the question of principle, and indeed, unless I am mistaken, in the debate on the Second Reading I used arguments very closely resembling those he has just used in regard to the proposal of the Government to create this new category of statutory small tenants. They are, as he truly said, tenants who ex concessis have not executed their own improvements, but the improvements have been executed by the landlord. I suggested the other day that there was no sufficient reason for giving them what, in the language of the Irish Land Act, we call fixity of tenure and fair rents, but if the House was disposed to insist upon that view our proper course I think, would have been, either to have thrown out this Bill on Second Reading, or to have expunged from it the whole of the sections dealing with statutory small holdings. We have

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not done that, and now we are simply called upon to decide between a form of words inserted in the Bill by my noble friend Lord Clinton, and an alternative form of words proposed by the noble Lord in charge of the Bill. Let me point out that, although there is a great deal to be said for the form of words now in the Bill, they do not have the effect of precluding the statutory small tenant from getting a fair rent fixed or getting a perpetuity of tenure. The difference between the proposal of my noble friend Lord Clinton and the proposal of the noble Lord in charge of the Bill is that in the one case the thing is done by the Land Court and in the other case it is done by agreement. With Lord Clinton's Amendment the Bill would still be open to the indictment of my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh.
Now to come to the proposal of Lord Clinton. The author of that Amendment has risen in his place to-night to tell us that, after examining the question carefully, he has come to the conclusion that his words, without other alterations in this part of the Bill, would really not produce the desired effect. If that is the view of the author of the Amendment, I cannot be more courageous than he is, and therefore I think he is probably well advised not to insist upon it.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND: The next four Amendments are consequential drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Clause 32, page 27, line 1, leave out ("arbiter") and insert ("Land Court")
Clause 32, page 27, line 2, leave out ("his") and insert ("their")
Clause 32, page 27, line 10, leave out ("his") and insert ("their")
Clause 32, page 27, line 13, leave out ("he") and insert ("they").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Further drafting Amendments made.
Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.

SHOPS BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS): My Lords, this Bill which I have the honour of submitting to your Lordships for Second Reading is only a part of the original and more ambitious legislative proposals which engaged the attention of Parliament in another place this session. In fact, it contains only those clauses, upon which there was general agreement in another place, and with the exception of a few Amendments of a more or less formal and drafting character which it will be necessary to move to give effect to those agreed points, I do not think it presents anything of a character which need engage your Lordships' attention very long. Both Parties are committed to legislation on this subject. The Act of 1892 and the amending Act dealt with the hours of young persons serving in shops, the Act of 1899 provided for seating accommodation for female shop assistants, and the Act of 1909 dealt with the question of early closing. It is, I think, common ground between the two Parties that shop assistants are a class the nature of whose occupation calls for the attention of Parliament, and I do not think it is necessary for me to labour the principle on which this Bill rests, nor to cite any instances to recommend it to your Lordships. Though this Bill is really only a fragment of the larger measure—the limitations of the hours to sixty per week, the Sunday closing provisions, and the seating and ventilation clauses have been dropped—there remain four important provisions which vitally affect the health and leisure of, I believe, about 2,000,000 shop keepers and shop assistants. The first provision, which is to be found in Clause 1, gives to shop assistants one half holiday a week, the holiday beginning at half-past one in the afternoon. The second provision allows intervals for certain meals—this is dealt with in subsection (2) of the first clause and also in the Schedule. Then there is the provision for the closing of shops on one half day in each week, so as to give the shopkeepers themselves the benefit of a half holiday. The fourth provision, which is contained in Clause 3, has the effect of facilitating the early closing movement provided for in the Act of 1904.

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I will say one word with regard to the application of these provisions, and in this connection I hope your Lordships will notice the elasticity with which the application of these principles is carred out. Your Lordships will see that by proviso (a) of Clause 1 the provision with regard to the half-holiday is not to apply to the week preceding a bank or public holiday or any day of public rejoicing or mourning if the shop assistant is not employed on that day and if on one week day in the following week in addition to that day the employment of the shop assistant ceases not later than half-past one o'clock in the afternoon. And proviso (b) states that where it is the practice for a shop assistant to enjoy an annual holiday of not less than two weeks on full pay the weekly half-holiday may be cancelled during four months of the year. With regard to meals different intervals are allowed. By the First Schedule in-boarders are given three-quarters of an hour and twenty minutes for dinner and tea respectively, whereas out-boarders have an hour and half-an-hour respectively for those meals.
By Clause 2 you will see that it is left to the local authority, by order, to fix what day the shops shall be closed, and they are permitted to fix either the same day for all shops, or different days for different classes of shops, or different days for different periods of the year. That is a provision the elasticity of which I think is commendable. Then it is further provided that if the half-holiday was fixed for a Saturday the shop keepers may decide upon another day for the half-holiday instead; or if the day fixed is not Saturday, then the shopkeepers may, by reversing it, have Saturday as the half-holiday. Then there is a further provision which allows the shopkeepers to practically contract out of this clause, and it is left to the local authority to decide whether exemption shall be granted either wholly or in part under the provisions of this clause. In order to do that, they have to satisfy themselves that a majority of the shopkeepers are in favour of this exemption. Then subsection (5) extends this exemption to holiday resorts. Moreover, there are a great number of exemptions from the provisions of the half-holiday and from the closing of shops: refreshments, intoxicating liquors, perishable articles, like provisions and tobacco,
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motor accessories, and, of course, the Post Office.
Then, coming to the other provisions to which I alluded—that of assisting and facilitating and giving a certain stimulus to the early closing movement—your Lordships will see that by Clause 3 the Secretary of State, on the representation of a local authority or a joint representation from a substantial number of occupiers of shops and shop assistants is entitled to appoint a suitable person to go down into the locality and promote early closing in the district. The fact is, as your Lordships know, that although the Act of 1904 gives power to close shops at an earlier hour than usual, it is very difficult to give effect to the Act. In fact, it appears that there is a great need for someone outside and rather standing above the district, to focus public opinion on the subject, to dispel the local jealousies which may exist, and the mutual distrust which is common enough between shopkeepers who are rivals in the same business. It is thought that the appointment of a person of this kind who can act the part of a conciliator might do a lot to assist in bringing about early closing where, just for the want of sympathy and assistance in bringing them together, very often the early closing movement comes to nothing. He will be empowered to hold an inquiry, and, if he thinks fit, to submit a scheme, and that scheme will be regarded as a prima facie case for the early closing movement.
The Bill applies to Ireland in rather a modified form. The terms of the clause relating to Ireland are no less favourable to shopkeepers and shop assistants there than in England or Scotland, but they are more applicable to local conditions. In fact, early in the session, before the Bill assumed its present shape, an arrangement was come to between the representatives of the liquor trade on the one hand and the assistants serving in licensed premises on the other. That arrangement is satisfactory to both parties, and as it does not place them in a worse position than they would enjoy under the Act it is thought wise to let that arrangement stand. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, as the noble Lord has intimated, this Bill has fallen into the category of those Bills which are now called agreed Bills. As such, I am certainly not prepared to raise any objection to it. At the same time I hope that the agreement which has been arrived at in the House of Commons will be extended outside as well, because from indications which I have already seen, there will be little prospect of agreement outside. I am anxious, in order to facilitate business and clear the atmosphere on a very small point to some extent, to call attention to one rather unfortunate incident. As your Lordships are aware, the Shop Hours Act of 1899 regulates the hours of employment, and that Act is administered by the London County Council. The Shop Hours Act of 1904 provides for the closing of shops, and that is administered by the local authorities. In the case of London, outside the City it is administered, of course, by the borough councils. This present Bill deals not only with the regulation of hours, but also extends the provisions for early closing. The unfortunate occurrence to which I have to call attention is connected with this. The noble Lord in charge of the Bill informed us quite correctly that it was considerably altered between the time that it passed through Grand Committee and the Report Stage in the House of Commons. A Home Office Paper was issued consisting of two parts—a copy of the Bill as passed by the Standing Committee, showing Amendments on Report; and a copy of the Bill as it would be if so amended, and under which, in the case of London, outside the City of London the authorities for working the Bill were the borough councils. But I am told that by an unfortunate inadvertence on the part of the draftsman a very important proviso was omitted, and the administration of the Act outside the City was transferred from the borough councils to the London County Council.
Any of your Lordships who are familiar with these questions which have for some time been argued as between the borough councils and the London County Council will know what that unfortunate omission means. I am sure that in the work now falling upon them the Government draftsmen have the ready sympathy of this House, but this omission is a very important one, and I am bound to point out
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that if the effect of this reversal had been fully appreciated and known it is extremely doubtful whether the Bill could have been treated as an agreed Bill. I have therefore to ask His Majesty's Government whether they still adhere to the view expressed by the revised edition of the Bill, or whether they are prepared to consider the question of restoring the administration of the Act in the case of London outside the City to the borough councils. The matter is one of considerable importance, and one to which the borough councils attach the greatest importance. If I am correctly informed, the borough councils are to some extent apprehensive, from threats which have been used elsewhere, that considerable alterations may be made in the government of London which may tend to a diminution of the work carried out by the borough councils. That does not necessarily arise on this Bill. But it is a most unfortunate thing that the borough councils, who had every reason to anticipate from the White Paper which was produced that they would be placed in the position which they desired to be placed in, should find their hopes dashed in this way. I do not intend to press the matter at this stage, but I understand that my noble friend Lord Malmesbury proposes to place an Amendment on the Paper which will afford the Government an opportunity of expressing their views on the matter. And in the event of their deciding to adhere to the London County Council as the authority for London, we shall be prepared to forego Our resistance and let the whole responsibility of depriving the borough councils of what is a perfectly legitimate power rest upon the shoulders of His Majesty's Government.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: With the permission of the House I will say a word on the point raised by the noble Duke. As he said, this was an inadvertent omission from the White Paper. I think the noble Duke admits that?
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: Quite.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: In the House of Commons on the Report stage the House was in possession of the fact that it was not the intention of the Government to go back from the position they had taken up all along not to introduce the borough councils as the authority. I do not think there was any doubt in the House

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or in the mind of anybody as to what the Intentions of the Government were. There was nothing to conceal. The noble Duke used the words "alter" and "reverse," as if this was a change of policy on the part of the Government. As a matter of fact, I am given to understand that when this Bill was debated in Committee the position of the Government was clearly stated. No Amendment was moved in Committee to make the borough councils the authorities. I know that no Amendment was placed on the Paper before the Report stage with a view of getting them made the administration authorities, and I know that no Division was challenged on the Report stage on this question. Therefore I do not understand how the noble Duke can use the words he did as describing the policy of the Government. On the merits of the question, it seems to me that when you come to the application of early closing orders, it is perfectly clear that a borough authority is not the one to entrust with this Act—
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The borough councils have now the power of administering the orders for early closing.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: Yes; and the fact that early closing has proceeded so slowly and to such a small extent proves the difficulties under which they labour. The noble Duke will see that the mere question of boundaries is an almost insuperable objection to applying an early closing order. If a street divides two authorities, it is clear you cannot apply an early closing order to one side of the street only. It is for that very reason that the Government consider that the borough authorities are not the best authorities to administer the Act and believe that if the London County Council administer the orders the early closing movement will make much greater strides in the future.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

RESIDENT MAGISTRATES (BELFAST) BILL.
House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without amendment: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bill read 3a, and passed.

COAL MINES BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD EMMOTT): I am sorry to trouble your Lordships further in regard to this Bill, but there are two small purely drafting Amendments which I want to insert. One is in Clause 2, page 2, line 3, to leave out the word "nominated" and insert the word "appointed." I may say that "nominated" has been left out everywhere else, and replaced by "appointed," but this was not noticed, so I ask that the omission should be made good now. The other Amendment is to bring the proviso to which your Lordships agreed from Clause 69, in which it was placed by mistake, into Clause 60, the clause to which it rightly belongs.
On Question, Drafting Amendments agreed to.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bill read 3a and passed, and returned to the Commons.

BURGH POLICE (SCOTLAND) AMEND- MENT BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order).
[The EARL OF DONOUOHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1:
Clause 1, page 1, line 22, after ("construction") insert ("lighting").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 2:
Special permission to keep open.
2. On a representation being made to any two members of the town council of a burgh or the county council of a county where section eighty-two of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1903, is in operation by the occupier of any place for public refreshment within the burgh or the county, as the case may be, that it is intended that a special entertainment, whether of a public or of a private nature, is to take place therein during any specified time, such two members may grant such occupier a special permission in writing to open or to keep open such place, if it be a place for public refreshment registered

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under the section aforesaid, beyond the hours prescribed by any bye-law under that section applicable thereto or, if the place be not so registered beyond the hour of eight o'clock at night, for such time as such members may see fit to prescribe: Provided that in the latter case such opening shall not be held to require the place to be registered as aforesaid.
LORD SALTOUN LORD SALTOUN moved to substitute "two magistrates" for "two members of the town council" at the beginning of the clause.
Amendment moved—
Clause 2, page 3, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("members of the town council") and insert ("magistrates").—(Lord Soltoun.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Drafting Amendment agreed to.
Clause 2, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 3:
Definition.
3. In section eighty-two of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1903, as amended by this Act the expression "place for public refreshment" includes any building or part of a building or other place of public resort for the sale for consumption therein of provisions or refreshments of any kind (including confectionery, ice-cream, fruit, and aerated waters), but does not extend to any premises certificated or registered under the Licensing (Scotland) Act, 1903, or any premises in respect of which a licence or other sanction or permit is for the time being in force, issued in virtue of specific powers conferred on a town council or other authority by the Burgh Police (Scotland) Acts or any other statute.
Amendment moved—
Clause 3, page 3, line 22, after ("ice-cream") insert ("as defined in the said section").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 4:
Commencement of Act.
4. This Act shall come into operation after the expiration of six months from the passing thereof; and until that expiration nothing in this Act contained shall affect or prejudice the provisions of section eighty-two of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1903, or the provisions of any local Act respecting the licensing of persons for the sale of ice-cream or the regulation of ice-cream shops or aerated water shops, or the enforcement of any byelaws thereunder respectively; but after that expiration all such provisions in local Acts and all such byelaws shall case to be in force.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved to leave out "six" ["This Act shall come into operation after the expiration of six"], and to insert "three."
Amendment moved—
Clause 4, page 3, line 30, leave out ("six") and insert ("three").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clause agreed to.
Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Amendments reported: Bill read 3a, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

HOUSE LETTING AND RATING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to order): Further drafting Amendments made: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bill read 3a, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

METROPOLITAN POLICE RATE BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: My Lords, this Bill is for the purpose of increasing the limit of the rate which may be imposed by the Secretary of State for police purposes in the metropolitan area. The present limit is 9d. in the £, and that was fixed by the Act of 1868. It is found that there is not enough money to pay for the cost of the police force in the metropolitan area. The fact is that some considerable additional expenses have been thrown upon this fund of late. In the year l909 a Select Committee of the House of Commons reported in favour of a weekly rest day for the police force, and that is being given effect to and is estimated to cost £180,000 a year. There is a further item of expenditure—the new scale of pay which is now given to the police, which is estimated to cost £80,000 a year. Your Lordships will remember that in August last, after the strikes and the serious additional tasks which were imposed upon the police force, it was generally agreed, both inside and outside Parliament, that

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the police should be put on a new and better scale of remuneration. Then there is the general growth of expenditure owing, in the first place, to the growth of the police force in comparison with the population of the metropolitan area, a consequence which your Lordships will see is bound to arise in the metropolis of any country. The growth of population, the number of foreigners who come here, the amount of duties cast upon the police in regulating the traffic, and other things, must lead to an increase in the police force. Then there has been the rise in the price of commodities, of which we have heard a great deal of late, and the general increments which have to be met.
It may be said that this growth of expenditure ought to be met out of the resources at present at the disposal of the Secretary of State, and so, no doubt, it would have been, were it not for the fact that, unfortunately, the rateable value of the metropolis, which for many quinquennial periods has always risen to a considerable extent, shows in this quinquennial period a tendency to decrease. Ten years ago the increase in the valuation of the metropolitan area amounted to no less than £2,000,000. Five years ago the increase was £1,500,000. This year the quinquennial valuation shows that the rateable value of the metropolis has decreased by £350,000. That may be regrettable from one point of view, but from others it may have its compensations. It is owing to that fact that the Secretary of State finds it necessary to ask Parliament to give powers to increase the limit of the rate for police purposes. I understand that some objection is taken to the fact that this Bill is brought before your Lordships, indeed before Parliament, so late in the session; but as many of the items of additional expenditure did not arise until late in the year—for instance, the new scale of pay did not come into existence until August—and there has been a change in the office of Secretary of State for the Home Department, which of course has occasioned some delay, your Lordships will see that it was not easy to introduce this Bill at an earlier stage in the session. The Bill was issued on the 7th of this month, and read a second time in the House of Commons on the 11th, and I understand that the London County Council, who, I believe, are interested in this Bill, have already had an opportunity
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of discussing it. At any rate a committee of the London County Council discussed this Bill last week. Therefore although the Bill is produced late, it cannot be said that Parliament and those concerned have not had ark opportunity of considering the provisions.
Let me also say that there is considerable urgency in regard to this Bill. If the new rate is to be imposed, the borough councils must know early in February what that rate is. If they do not get the information then there will be considerable confusion, if indeed it will be possible for them to issue the new rate that will be needed. It must be admitted that this Bill throws a considerable burden upon the ratepayers of the metropolis, and so it must be until there is a general remodelling of the system of Imperial subventions to local taxation. Your Lordships will probably remember that that formed the subject of an inquiry by a Royal Commission, and I believe the Report is of a rather voluminous character; so much so that it has been thought necessary to appoint a Departmental Committee, and that Committee is sitting at the present time. I think, therefore, that the provisions of this Bill may fairly be regarded as being temporary and provisional, and that the last word on the question of rating and Imperial contributions is not spoken by this Bill. The fact that this is a provisional Bill is proved by the proviso, to which I will draw your Lordships' attention. The proviso in the first clause provides that. I he local authorities are to be relieved of any obligation to contribute in respect of the additional rate which is here proposed. Your Lordships are aware that under the Local Government Act of 1888 local authorities are obliged to make contributions out of the funds they derive from the Exchequer towards the total cost of the police. The rate is 9d. in the £, and the contribution of the local authorities is 4d. in the £. The proviso to which I have referred establishes that their contribution is to remain the same. This proves that the whole Bill is rather of a provisional character, because otherwise they would naturally be expected to contribute the same proportion as before.
I may say that the sum of money required in order to carry on next year is about £220,000. It is estimated that a penny in the £1 will produce £233,000. If

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that is so, perhaps your Lordships will ask, "Why do you ask for 2d. additional, instead of only a penny?" In the first place we have to think of the future. There is the increase of ordinary expenditure due to the ordinary growth of population, and then there is the rateable value. There is the fluctuation in the Exchequer contributions account, and the frequent shortages which the police fund has had to submit to on this item. And then one always has to think of the possibility of emergencies, strikes, or anything of that kind, which throws great additional expense on the police fund. But I am authorised by the Secretary of State for the Home Department to say that he only intends to impose a penny additional rate this year, and that he will not go further than a penny rate without giving the House of Commons an opportunity of discussing the whole question upon his salary. Further than that, he will make a personal investigation into the whole question of police finance with a view to seeing whether the expense can be reduced in the future and what contribution can be made by the Exchequer to meet it.
I am aware that this Bill has aroused opposition in some quarters. I hope that opposition will not be pressed, because if this Bill does not go through it will not be possible to go on recruiting the additional police necessary to give effect to the weekly day of fest which has been approved of in another place and promised to the police. If noble Lords insist in their opposition to this measure they must take the responsibility for that weekly rest day being, in effect, cancelled. I hope, indeed, that on reflection the opposition will not be pressed in view of the pledge which the Secretary of State has authorised me to make and in view of the circumstances generally surrounding the Bill. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, the state of this House surely illustrates the extraordinary conduct of the Government with regard to this measure. I do not think any measure has ever been introduced into Parliament in which such scant feeling has been shown for the ordinary laws of representation. This measure involves a charge on the London ratepayers of about £460,000 a year. It was intro-
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duced into the House of Commons last week for Second Reading at half-past two in the morning, and the next stage was taken on the following day at, I believe, between two and three o'clock in the morning, and no opportunity what ever has been given to the London County Council to discuss this matter. I had the honour of waiting on the predecessor of the present Secretary of State, who promised in terms that he would give substantial assistance, if he could induce the Treasury to increase their contributions, towards this police fund, but he also distinctly said that no further operations were to be taken without consulting the London County Council. The London County Council has not been consulted, and this matter has never been before the council. It has been discussed by one committee of the council but not by the other, which takes serious objections to it.
Our view of the finance differs entirely from that of the noble Lord. The noble Lord spoke on the assumption that this House was seized with the objects of this Bill. The House of Commons was not so seized. On the contrary, those who carried on the negotiations between the two Parties were assured that the rest day to the police could not be given unless this Bill was put into operation. That is, according to the London County Council, not the fact. The rest day to the police has been given; an extra day has been given. We are prepared to maintain and pay our fair share, but we are not prepared to take on our shoulders the whole responsibility. The system was that the Government should pay half the charge of the metropolitan police, and the London County Council the other half. In the last few years there has been a great increase of expenditure, and at this moment the charge, instead of being 50 per cent. equally, is 58½ per cent. on the London County Council and 41½ per cent. on His Majesty's Government. It is now proposed, at one stroke, to raise the rate by 2d. We contend that no more than £50,000 is wanted; yet by this Bill we are to be liable to have the Secretary of State swoop down upon us at any, moment and raise a further £460,000 a year. After all, the ratepayers of London have some right to consideration in this matter, and, late as it is, I must trouble your Lordships to divide on this Bill unless I get some satisfactory pledge with regard to it.

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There is no cause whatever for going beyond an extra penny rate in the present conditions. The total charge which is anticipated by the London County Council next year in excess of the present year is £190,000, and the surplus raised by levying a rate of 9d. at the present time is £196,000. I am instructed that we can pay the whole of these extra charges for the rest day of the police and for the extra wages without jeopardising in any way the state of the fund, and we maintain that we have a right to wait until the Royal Commission's Report has been considered by the Departmental Committee. The Royal Commission recommended that 50 per cent. should be borne by the ratepayers and 50 per cent. by the taxpayers, and until that has been considered by the Departmental Committee we object most strongly to any Parliamentary action being taken except in concurrence with the London County Council. Here we are in the last two days of the session. If we are in difficulties it is clue entirely to the action of the Government. They knew this question would require settlement, they have known it for the last four or five years; they have chosen to give us five days. They introduce the Bill at the last moment, carry it in a small house, and invite your Lordships' assent to it at the close of business, with only one more day of the session to go. There are members of the London County Council who attend more than 500 committee meetings in the year, sometimes sitting more than ten times in a week in order to get good administration and avoid adding a halfpenny to the rates; yet we are now, by a process which is taken entirely out of our hands, to be mulcted to the extent of a further 2d. in the £1 without any power whatever of objection. I have had some communication with the noble Lord in charge of the Bill, and he was good enough to make me an offer that the Secretary of State would only raise a penny at present and would not raise the other penny without allowing a discussion on his salary. That is no concession whatever. Everybody has the right to raise a discussion on a matter of that sort on the Secretary of State's salary. And after three or four hours' debate the Secretary is in a position to closure it, and the whole thing would then terminate without possibly even a definite vote in the House of Commons. That is by no means satisfactory.
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I desire very much to avoid moving the rejection of the Bill. In several measures which have passed the House—in one which passed the House this session—it was required that the Act should not be put in operation until a substantive Motion had been moved and carried in both Houses. I do not here say both Houses of. Parliament, but do ask that if the Secretary of State, who cannot possibly for some years to come require more than a penny rate, desires to raise the other, he should give a pledge that a substantive Motion shall be moved in the House of Commons and carried before any portion of that further penny rate is applied to the service of the police. I ask that as a representative of the greatest financial body, except the House of Commons, existing in this country. We—the London Comity Council—have a revenue of £10,000,000; we have great difficulty in carrying out our services; and to add at one stroke nearly half a million pounds, against the pledges of the former Home Secretary, against precedent, against the advice of the Royal Commission, and against the understanding on which this was carried through the House of Commons last week is, I think, straining a power which the Government would do wisely to avoid, especially when they are in contact with the representatives of the ratepayers of this great metropolis. I have done all I could by personal influence in the last few hours since I first heard that this question would be brought up to induce the Government to make some concession to this feeling. I am absolutely without power of consulting those with whom I act, except those who happen to be members of this House, and they are at one with me. Therefore unless I receive the pledge I ask for I shall be forced to press an Amendment that this Bill be read a second time this day three months.
Amendment moved—
To leave out ("now") and add at the end of the Motion ("this day three months").—(Viscount Midleton.)
THE EARL OF DUNMORE: My Lords, I must support the protest of the noble Viscount. Here is a Bill which was passed through the House of Commons in the early hours of the morning. The noble Lord in charge of tine Bill said that it was required in connection with the recent increase effected in the pay of the police and the extra expense involved in the one day's rest in seven. The noble Lord also informed us that the total amount

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which would be required was £188,000. We are all in favour of giving these privileges to the police; they are well deserved. But a penny rate represents £230,000, and I maintain, as did the noble Viscount, that there is no chance of the whole of a 2d. rate being required in all probability for many years. The noble Lord contended that the rejection of this Bill would prevent the one day's rest in seven being given. How can that be the case? It is difficult to give the exact figures, but a 9d. rate produced a surplus of over £150,000 this year. It may be said that that surplus is required in connection with the pension fund, but may I remind the noble Lord that separate rating powers are given for the purpose of meeting deficiencies in the pension fund. I know that the cost of that fund is increasing. That is another reason why we should hesitate very much before adding 2d. to the statutory rate. The pension fund in 1902 was £139,000; it is now £282,000, and according to the actuarial estimates it will very soon be £500,000. That is all the more reason why the representatives of the ratepayers ought to have had a chance, which they have not had, of considering and discussing the proposals of His Majesty's Government. This Bill was put through before the London County Council had any opportunity of expressing their views or even considering the matter.
It surely cannot be necessary to pass this Bill in its present form, placing a burden of nearly half a million on the ratepayers. If the whole of that money is required at least we ought to know the purpose for which it is to be raised. I do not want to throw out this Bill, but I would remind the noble Lord that, after all, if he refuses to meet us and we reject this Bill, it is open to him to put a new Bill through again in February, and to bring it in before the new financial year. There cannot be any need for this tremendous haste in putting this huge burden on the London ratepayers. I protest on the part of the London ratepayers, who ought to have had a voice in the matter. I was glad to hear one thing. The noble Lord in charge of the Bill said that some inquiry was to be made as to the cost of the London police. The cost of the London police is 7s. 9d., whereas the average in the big towns all over the country is somewhere about 3s. Therefore
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it is more than double in London, and I would welcome any inquiry into this matter. I do hope that the noble Lord will meet us; but if he cannot I shall be compelled to support the noble Viscount, much as I dislike that course. It is absolutely necessary that this matter should be considered. A 2d. rate is unwarranted; there is no need for it. I trust that the noble Lord will give the representatives of the London ratepayers an opportunity of considering the matter.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: The two noble Lords who have just spoken are quite wrong if they think that the Secretary of State has any money up his sleeve and does not need the money for which he comes to Parliament. We have not got these balances of £190,000 and other figures that are mentioned, and if anything is needed to prove the state of the finances of the Metropolitan Police Force, noble Lords have only to look at the state of the balances to the credit of that force on March 31 of each year. In 1905, the balances at our credit were £541,000. By a successive depletion, owing to excess of expenditure over revenue, those balances have fallen in this year to £352,000. There has thus been in a period of seven years a reduction of almost £200,000 out of half a million, or two-fifths of the total balances in 1905. If that is true—and those are official figures given me to-night—it is clear that we have not got these large balances which the noble Viscount thinks we possess and which render unnecessary the proposals of this Bill.
If we do not get our Bill the recruiting for the police force must stop because there will not be funds. The noble Viscount understands that if recruiting ceases the force cannot be augmented, and unless it is augmented the weekly rest cannot be given. It has been estimated that a very large addition—I have not got the figures—is necessary in order to give effect to this weekly holiday, and unless we can go on recruiting that cannot be given. I must correct the statement which was made that the weekly half-holiday had already been given. That is not so. A start has been made; we have been able to give half of it, but if it is to be carried out in its complete form we shall have to recruit another 800 men. I have it on the authority of the Secretary of State that if this Bill does not pass to-night he will not be able to go on with that recruiting

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and the weekly half-holiday will have to remain where it is, in a very partial condition.
I am rather surprised that the noble Viscount makes such a point of this. He knows, and we all know, that the contributions of the Exchequer to the local services must be revised. That is common ground. A Departmental Committee is considering the Report of the Royal Commission, and it is absolutely certain that before a year or two the whole subject will be reconsidered; and the contributions from Imperial resources to this kind of charge must be very materially increased. Very likely we shall come back to that half-and-half arrangement which the noble Viscount says existed not many years ago. As I said, this is really only a provisional measure to get us over the difficulty. Why deny to the Secretary of State a little measure winch you admit he wants in order to carry on? He comes and asks for an extra penny in case of emergency such as cannot be foreseen—surely it is a mere act of confidence in the Secretary of State to give him that slight margin on which he can draw in case of emergency. Add to that the promise he gives that he will not increase it this year, and that it will not be increased at all without a full discussion in Parliament. I do not quite understand the noble Viscount when he asks for a pledge of a substantive Motion. How is it open to my hon. friend to pledge the Government to give a day in the session to discuss this matter? There is a day allotted for the discussion of his own salary He has promised that, if required, this matter shall he raised on his salary and there must be a substantive Motion;
Resolved in the negative, and Bill to be read 2a this day three months.
if that is what the noble Viscount attaches importance to, surely that ought to satisfy him. In any case I deprecate the attitude taken up. I can understand it in a way, because I see that the noble Viscount is afraid that he is going to part with his bargaining power, and that if he lets this penny go, he will not have anything to bargain with next year. In view of the fact that the whole thing must come up for settlement before many years are over and that it is common ground between both Parties that the Imperial contributions must be increased to these rating expenditures, surely it is not necessary for the noble Viscount to press his opposition on this occasion; and I sincerely trust that he will not.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I should have been only too glad to yield to the appeal of the noble Lord, but it is quite impossible. The whole of what is wanted is a halfpenny rate. We offer a penny rate, and that represents a quarter of a million of money. The noble Lord asks us to give away this gigantic power of taxing us to the extent of another quarter of a million without anything in our own hands which may enable the ratepayers of London to do more than state their case before the Home Secretary. If the Bill is not passed not a single policeman will go short of a farthing, not a single administrative act will be changed for a moment. I hope the House will refuse to give a Second Reading to this Bill.
On Question, whether the word ("now") shall stand part of the Motion?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 15; Not-contents, 22.

CONTENTS

Morley of Blackburn, V. (L. President.)

Allendale, V.

Granard, L. (E Granard.)

Herschell, L. [Teller.]

Ashby St. Ledgers, L.

Lucas, L.

Beauchamp, E.

Colebrooke, L.

Pentland, L.

Craven, E.

Emmott, L.

Southwark, L.

Liverpool, E. [Teller]

Glantawe, L.

Willingdon, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Devonshire, D.

Falmouth, V.

Estcourt, L.

Northumberland, D.

Goschen, V.

Hindlip, L.

Lamington, L.

Barrymore, L.

Lawrence, L.

Camperdown, E.

Brodrick, L. (V. Midleton.)

Newton, L.

Fitzwilliam, E.

Clinton, L. [Teller.]

Sanderson, L.

Stradbroke, E.

Dawnay, L. (V. Downe.)

Seaton, L.

Waldegrave, E.

Dunmore, L. (E. Dunmore.) [Teller]

Sinclair, L.

Wharncliffe, E.

House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Twelve o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.