Lords Sitting of 13 December 1911

METROPOLITAN POLICE RATE BILL.
Brought from the Commons.

MILITARY MANŒUVRES BILL. [H.L.]
LERWICK HARBOUR ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.

NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, before your Lordships begin business I should like to say a word or two with regard to a Memorandum on the Insurance Bill for which I moved some days ago. I made that Motion with great reluctance, because I was fully aware of the amount of trouble and labour which it would throw upon members of the Civil Service, who, as we all know, in these days of long sittings have already such a very heavy burden to bear. I should not have been in the least disappointed if the noble Viscount the Leader of the House had said that in the present congested state of business he did not feel justified in granting the Return; but the Return was granted, and I think it would be ungrateful in me if I did not express to those members of the Civil Service who prepared that Report, whoever they were—I do not know whether it was done at the Treasury or in the Government draftsmen's department, or where it was done—my gratitude for the very great assistance which they gave to me personally, at all events, and I believe to many of your Lordships in the consideration of the Bill. I endeavoured to follow as well as I could the endless and daily alterations and changes which were made in the Bill, but. I found it impossible to keep pace with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I am bound to say that if it had not been for this Memorandum I should not have been able to arrive at a limited knowledge or at any general idea of the Bill as a whole. I merely say this because I am very sensible of the great task undertaken, for it must have involved a large amount of labour upon a staff which is already overworked, and I wish to express my gratitude to them.
HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES.
Third Report from the Select Committee made, to be printed, and to be considered on Friday next. (No. 245.)
PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 4) BILL.
House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without amendment, and to be read 3a To-morrow.
NATIONAL INSURANCE BILL.
Petition against; of persons signing; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT MORLEY): My Lords, in regard to the course of business; it is proposed, for the convenience both of your Lordships and of the other House, that a morning sitting of this House should be held at noon to-morrow for the purpose of taking the Third Reading of the Small Landholders (Scotland) Bill should the Report stage of that Bill be concluded in the proceedings of this evening. I have reason to understand that this will be for the convenience of both sides of this House. Then the other business would be taken at 4.30 as usual.

COAL MINES BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1 agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 16:
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD EMMOTT): My Lords, it may, perhaps, be for your

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Lordships' convenience that instead of moving these Amendments one by one I draw you Lordships' attention to those Amendments which I consider are more than merely drafting Amendments. If that plan meets with your Lordships' approval, I think the first Amendment that I need draw attention to is on Clause 17. I therefore move the Amendments up to that point en bloc, subject, of course, to giving any explanation of any of them that may be required.
Amendments moved—
Clause 2, page 1, line 16, leave out ("such")
Clause 2, page 1, lines 16 and 17, leave out ("nominate") and insert ("appoint")
Clause 2, page 2, line after ("certificate") insert ("of competency under this Act")
Clause 2, page 2, line 4, leave out from ("A") to ("shall") in line 5 and insert ("small mine")
Clause 2, page 2, lines 9 and 10, leave out ("holding at least a second-class certificate of competency").
Clause 3, page 2, line 24, leave out from ("and") to ("Provided") in line 25 and insert ("where an under manager has been appointed by the owner or agent of the mine, also by that under manager")
Clause 3, page 2, line 25, leave out from ("mine") to the end of line 34
Clause 3, page 2, line 39, leave out ("such supervision being exercised") and insert ("the duties of the manager, or under manager, as the case may be, in respect of daily personal supervision being performed")
Clause 3, page 3, line 1, after ("certificate") insert ("of competency")
Clause 3, page 3, line 2, leave out ("nominated") and insert ("appointed")
Clause 3, page 3, line 6, leave out ("section") and insert ("Act")
Clause 3, page 3, line 8, after ("certificate") insert ("of competency")
Clause 3, page 3, line 13, leave out ("for whom he is acting") and insert ("whose duties he is performing").
Clause 4, page 3, line 17, at beginning insert:
"( 1 ) After the first day of January nineteen hundred and thirteen, no person who is the manager of a mine shall, without the approval of the inspector of the division, be the manager of any other mine required to be under the control of a manager if the aggregate number of persons employed underground in the mine of which lie is manager and that other mine exceeds one thousand, or if all the shafts or atlas for the time being in use in working the mine of which he is manager and that other mine do not lie within a circle having a radius not exceeding two miles.
"(2) Where any person is appointed to be the manager of two or more mines required to be under the control of a manager a separate under manager shall he appointed for each mine."
Clause 4, page 3, lines 22 and 23, leave out ("Provided that if the") and insert ("if the owner, agent, or")
Clause 4, page 3, line 24, leave out ("requirement") and insert ("order").
Clause 5, page 3, line 30, leave out ("by this Act")
Clause 5, page 3, line 33, leave out ("this Part of")
Clause 5, page 3, line 18, leave out ("this Part of").
Clause 6, page 3, line 40, after ("appointment") insert ("in pursuance of this Act")
Clause 6, page 3, line 42, leave out ("in pursuance of this Act").
Clause 8, page 4, lines 13 and 14, leave out ("not more than seventeen persons and composed as follows")
Clause 8, page 4, line 20, leave out ("together with") and insert ("and (d)")
Clause 9, page 4, lines 36 and 37, leave out ("provided that such") and insert ("of competency under this Act, and the")
Clause 9, page 5, line 7, leave out ("except") and insert ("or")
Clause 9, page 5, line 9, leave out from ("degree") to ("of") in line 10.
Clause 9, page 5, line 10, after ("and") insert: (iii) has given satisfactory evidence of his sobriety, experience, and general good conduct; and
Clause 9, page 5, line 15, leave out from ("conditions") to the end of line 21 and insert ("and for requiring at least one of the examiners in every viva voce examination to be a person possessing practical acquaintance with those conditions").
Clause 11, page 6, line 18, after the first ("of") insert ("or while temporarily performing the duties of")
Clause 11, page 7, line 9, after ("incompetency") insert ("or of such"), and after ("misconduct") insert ("as aforesaid").
Clause 12, page 8, line 18, after ("certificate") insert ("of competency under this Act").
Clause 14, page 9, line 1, after ("such") insert ("other")
Clause 14, page 9,line 2, leave out from ("sides") to ("and") in line 3.
Clause 14, page 9,line 3, after ("safety") insert ("(including the checking and recording of the number of persons under his charge)")
Clause 14, page 9,lines 30 and 31, leave out ("such duties as aforesaid") and insert ("his statutory duties").
Clause 15, page 9, line 39, after ("competency") insert ("under this Act")
Clause 15, page 10, line 2, leave out ("shall be") and insert ("have been")
Clause 15, page 10, line 4, after ("certificate") insert ("in the prescribed form")
Clause 15, page 10, line 23, leave out front the beginning of the line to the first ("a") in line 27
Clause 15, page 10, line 27, leave out ("obtain") and insert ("have obtained")
Clause 15, page 10, line 33, leave out from ("be") to ("for") in line 35, and insert ("kept at the office at the mine and, whenever a requisition in that behalf is made by an inspector, produced")
Clause 16, page 10, line 40, leave out ("of") and insert ("and have had") and after ("experience,") insert ("of underground work")
Clause 16, page 11, line 8, leave out ("legal representative of") and insert ("person acting as legal adviser to )
Clause 16, page 11, line 27, after ("aforesaid") insert ("or if the manager fails to produce the certificates of the firemen, examiners or deputies").—(Lord Emmott.)
VISCOUNT CHILSTON: My Lords, I do not raise any objection to the course suggested by the noble Lord. I have been carefully through the Amendments and they all appear to me, with few exceptions, to be drafting and consequential Amendments. I therefore think the suggestion put forward by the noble. Lord in charge of the Bill is one which the House might very wisely accept.
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 16, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 17:
LORD EMMOTT: This is a partly drafting Amendment. It eliminates the references to clauses of the Bill by number, references which are undesirable if they can be avoided, and it applies to firemen's examinations made during shifts.
Amendment moved—
Clause 17, page 12, line 1, leave out from the first ("of") to the end of line 2, and insert ("the reports required to be made under the last preceding section and under the provisions of this Act relating to inspections before commencing work and inspections during shifts").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 17, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 18 agreed to.
Clause 19 to 28:
LORD EMMOTT: These are all drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Clause 19, page 13, line 17, leave out the first ("or") and leave out the second ("a").
Clause 20, page 13, line 32, leave out the first ("a") and insert ("an accurate")
Clause 20, page 13, line 37, after ("basis") insert ("being variations")
Clause 20, page 14, line 26, leave out ("and section").
Clause 21, page 15, line 22, leave out ("or dislocation")
Clause 21, page 15, lines 22 and 23, leave out ("or the seam") and insert ("in the mine, or of the seam, as the case may be")
Clause 21, page 15, line 26, leave out ("boundary")
Clause 21, page 15, lines 33 and 34, leave out ("or the seam") and insert ("in the mine, or of the seam, as the case may be")
Clause 21, page 16, line 29, leave out ("of") and
Clause 23, page 17, line 12, leave out ("at the office of") and insert ("in the office at").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clauses 19 to 28, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 29:
LORD EMMOTT: My second Amendment to this clause carries with it something more than drafting. It extends the provisions for measuring air currents to small mines. There are always persons of experience, I believe, in connection with small mines, and there is no reason at all why the air currents should not be measured in those mines, and it may be very necessary for their safety that they should be measured.
Amendments moved—
Clause 29, page 21, line 1, leave out ("kept normally") and insert ("normally kept")
Clause 29, page 21, line 16, leave out from ("in.") to the first ("the") in line 17 and insert ("every mine")
Clause 29, page 21, line 18, leave out ("other")
Clause 29, page 21, line 30, leave out from ("that") to the end of the subsection, and insert ("in case of a mine which is liable to spontaneous combustion of coal, a place shall be deemed to be in a fit state for working or passing therein, notwithstanding that the air contains either less than nineteen per cent. of oxygen, or more than one and a quarter per cent, of carbon dioxide, if the mine has been exempted by order of the. Secretary of State, and the conditions on which the exemption is granted are complied with").—(Lord Emmott)
VISCOUNT CHILSTON: I understand the noble Lord to say that the existing officials will be able in these smaller mines to take these measurements, and that further expert help will not be required—in fact, that you are not placing a greater burden on the owners of these mines than they have to bear at the present moment. I should like to be reassured on that point.
LORD EMMOTT: I understand that there must be somebody in connection with the mine—in the case of a small mine it might possibly be the owner himself—who would be able to do this. It will not, so I am told, necessitate the mine owner engaging a new official for this purpose.
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 29, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 30 agreed to.
Clause 31:
LORD EMMOTT: These are drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Clause 31, page 22, line 13, after ("underground") insert ("either (a)")
Clause 31, page 22, line 17, leave out from ("underground") to ("when") in line 20 and insert ("or (b)")
Clause 31, page 22, lines 22 and 23 leave out ("adequate ventilation for the mine") and insert ("such sufficient amount of ventilation as aforesaid")
Clause 31, page 22, line 35, leave out from ("a") to ("and") in line 30, and insert ("small mine").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 31, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 32:
LORD EMMOTT: This is an Amendment that I must explain. It deals with the clause which enacts that safety lamps are to be used in mines where an explosion has taken place during the last twelve months. The alteration that is made by this Amendment is to allow six months' grace to mine owners so that they may improve the ventilation. It is only a fair concession to mine owners that they should have this period of grace.
Amendment moved—
Clause 32, page 23, line 29, after ("mine") insert:
("and
"(ii) for the purpose of paragraph (b) of this subsection an explosion occurring before the commencement of this Act shall not betaken into account.")—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD EMMOTT: The next Amendment is formal.
Amendment moved—
Clause 32, page 24, line 4, after the second ("a") insert ("locked").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD EMMOTT: The next Amendment enacts that where safety lamps are required in pursuance of this section in any seam they shall also be used in any cross-measure drift. The danger in a cross-measure drift is just as great as in the seam itself,
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and if the enactment as to safety lamps applies to the airway in the seam it should also apply to the cross-measure drift.
Amendment moved—
Clause 32, page 24, line 14, after ("air") insert:
("(5) Where safety lamps are required in pursuance of this section to be used in any seam they shall also be used in any cross-measure drift connected with that seam.")—(Lord Emmott.)
VISCOUNT CHILSTON: I agree with the noble Lord that the Bill would barely be effective if the same provision did not apply in a cross-measure drift as applies to the seam itself. I think that is the only alteration suggested by the noble Lord, and if that is so it is a considerable improvement in the Bill.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 32, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 33 agreed to.
Clauses 34 to 38:
LORD EMMOTT: These are all drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Clause 34, page 24, line 31, leave out ("such competent person as aforesaid") and insert ("a competent person appointed in writing by the manager for the purpose").
Clause 35, page 25, lines 25 and 26, leave out ("under this Act regulating the use of explosives") and insert ("made by the Secretary of State")
Clause 35, page 26, lines I to 8, leave out subsection (3) and insert:
("(3) No person shall search any workmen in pursuance of this section unless he has previously given an opportunity to some two workmen employed in the mine to search himself, and no lucifer, match, or such apparatus as aforesaid, and no cigar, cigarette, pipe, or contrivance for smoking has been found on him.")
Clause 36, page 26, line 24, after ("such") insert ("two")
Clause 36, page 26, line 26, leave out ("such two shafts or outlets") and insert ("them")
Clause 36, page 26, line 28, leave out ("a") and insert ("the").
Clause 37, page 28, line 18, leave out. ("and") and insert ("or").
Clause 38, page 28, line 30, after the second ("every") insert ("such").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clauses 34 to 38, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 39 agreed to.
Clause 40 ·
LORD EMMOTT: The first four Amendments in this clause are all drafting.
Amendments moved—
Clause 40, page 29, line 17, leave out winding") and after ("apparatus") insert ("ordinarily used for raising or lowering persons to or from the surface")
Clause 40, page 29, line 18, after ("shall") insert ("if the shaft is vertical")
Clause 40, page 29, line 21, after ("mine") insert ("or class of mine")
Clause 40, page 29, line 23, after ("mine") insert ("or class of mine").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD EMMOTT: The next Amendment is inserted here because a promise was made on the Report stage in the other House to give owners a period of glace for altering their winding apparatus. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Clause 40, page 20, line 23, after ("mine") insert ("and shall come into operation oft the first day of July nineteen hundred and thirteen or such later date as in view of the circumstances of the mine may be fixed by the inspector of the division.").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD EMMOTT: The remaining Amendments to this clause are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Clause 40, page 30, line 20, leave out ("winding")
Clause 40, page 30, line 24, leave out ("winding")
Clause 40, page 31, line 4, leave out ("other").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 40, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 41 agreed to.
Clause 42:
LORD EMMOTT: These are all drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Clause 42, page 31, line 18, leave out ("coming into operation") and insert ("commencement")
Clause 42, page 31, line 34, leave out ("coming into operation") and insert ("commencement")
Clause 42, page 32, line 2, leave out ("coining into operation") and insert ("commencement")
Clause 42, page 32, lines 3 and 4, leave out ("in that mine or seam")
Clause 42, page 32, line 22, leave out ("coining into operation") and insert ("commencement")
Clause 42, page 32, line 24, leave out ("at air crossings") and insert ("for the purpose of crossing").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 42, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 43:
LORD EMMOTT: All the Amendments to this clause are drafting.
Amendments moved—
Clause 43, page 33, line 9, after ("Provided that") insert:
("(i) in the case of a haulage road in which such a clear space as aforesaid has been provided, but the space so provided has in sonic part of it been reduced to a width of less than two feet by reason of some cause over which the owner, agent, or manager of the mine has no control, the foregoing prohibition shall not apply during the time (not exceeding the time reasonably required for the purpose) during which the repairs necessary for restoring the width to two feet are being carried out; and
"(ii)")
Clause 43, page 33, line 12, leave out ("coming into operation") and insert ("commencement")
Clause 43, page 33, line 20, leave out from ("disputes") to end of line 29.
Clause 43, page 34, line 4, leave out from ("rails") to the end of line 6, and insert:
("Provided that—
"(a) where there are two parallel lines of rails the foregoing provisions shall not apply if there is a clear space of at least three feet between tubs standing on those rails; and
"(b)")
Clause 43, page 34, line 17, leave out from ("any") to ("of") in line 19, and insert ("mine as respects which the Secretary of State is satisfied that it will be worked out within three years from the commencement").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 43, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 44 to 51:
LORD EMMOTT: I move the Amendments down to Clause 51. They are all drafting.
Amendments moved—
Clause 44, page 34, line 34 to page 35, line 6, leave out subsection (3) and insert:
("(3) Every refuge hole shall be—

"(a) as near as may be three feet in width and not less, than four feet in depth;

"(b) not less in height than the height of the haulage road at the point where the hole is, or six feet, whichever is the less;

"(c) if such a clear space as aforesaid is provided, on the same side of the road as that space;

"(d) if no such clearspace as aforesaid is provided, on the same side of the road as the other refuge boles, or where the road is on a curve, on the outer side of the curve;

"(e) marked with a distinctive number;

"(f) if necessary to make it readily visible, constantly kept whitewashed both inside and for a distance of not less than one foot round the aperture;

"(g) kept clean.

"(4) Nothing shall be placed in any refuge hole or across the entrance thereto so as to impede ingress."
Clause 44, page 35, line 6, leave out from ("ingress") to ("within") in line 8, and insert ("notwithstanding anything in this section it shall not be necessary to provide refuge holes on any road").
Clause 46, page 35, line 29, leave out ("of") and insert ("consisting of three or more")
Clause 46, page 35, line 35, after ("haulage") insert ("not being endless-rope or endless-chain haulage")
Clause 46, page 35, line 36, leave out ("other than endless-rope haulage")
Clause 46, page 36, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("other than endless rope") and insert ("haulage not being endless rope or endless chain").
Clause 50, page 37, line 1, leave out the second ("of") and insert ("consisting of three or more")
Clause 50, page 37, line 16, leave out ("or each set of cogs").
Clause 51, page 38, line I, leave out ("gate-end").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clauses 44 to 51, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 52 agreed to.
Clause 53:
LORD EMMOTT: The first is a necessary Amendment to insure the presence of a banksman at the top of a shaft during lowering. That is not specifically provided for in the Bill as presented to your Lordships' House, but it is considered essential by experts. The second Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
Amendments moved—
Clause 53, page 38, line 24, leave out from ("Act") to ("at") in line 26 and insert:
("(2) There shall be in attendance at the top of every shaft by which any persons are about to be lowered into the mine a competent person for the purpose of receiving and transmitting signals, and as long as persons are in the mine below ground a competent person shall be in constant attendance for that purpose.")
Clause 53, page 38, line 31, leave out from ("raised") to the end of line 32.—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 53, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 54 and 55 agreed to.
Clause 56:
LORD EMMOTT: This is a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Clause 56, page 39, line 21, leave out ("such examination") and insert ("examination under this section").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 56, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 57:
LORD EMMOTT: The first Amendment is drafting.
Amendment moved—
Clause 57, page 30, lines 36 and 37, leave out ("such a person shall attend for that purpose") and insert ("a person so appointed for that purpose is in this Act referred to as a winding engineman.
"(2) A winding engineman shall attend for the purpose aforesaid").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD EMMOTT: The point of the next Amendment is that as the Bill now stands it might bring the eight hours day provision as regards winding engine-men into force before the Home Office has had time to make the necessary regulations. That would be undesirable, and this Amendment gives power to postpone the date on which the provision is to come into force until the requisite regulations have been made.
Amendment moved—
Page 40, line 1, after ("(2)") insert ("After the prescribed date and").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD EMMOTT: The next Amendment is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Page 40, lines 21 to 23, leave out subsection (4).—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 57, as amended, agreed to.
LORD EMMOTT: I move to insert, after Clause 57, as consequential on the preceding Amendment, a new clause placing a restriction on the use of internal combustion engines in mines.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 57, insert as a new clause:
(". Except with the permission of the Secretary of State no internal combustion engine shall be newly introduced underground in any coal mine after the passing of this Act").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 58 agreed to.
Clauses 59 to 66:
LORD EMMOTT: These are purely drafting Amendments.
Amendments moved—
Clause 59, page 40, line 37, to page 41, line 3, leave out subsection (2), and insert:
("(2) If at any time in any place in the mine the percentage of inflammable gas in the general body of the air in that place is found to exceed one and a quarter the electric current shall at once be cut oil from all cables and other electrical apparatus in that place, and shall not be switched on again as long as the percentage of inflammable gas exceeds that amount").
Clause 59, page 41, line 5, leave out ("by arbitration") and insert ("in the manner provided by this Act for settling disputes").
Clause 60, page 41, line 21, after ("workman") insert (' o for any explosives so provided").
Clause 66, page 44, line 17, after (".fireman") insert ("examiner")
Clause 66, page 44, line 28, after ("fireman") insert ("examiner").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clauses 59 to 66, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 67 agreed to.
Clause 68:
LORD EMMOTT: The reason for this Amendment is a mere drafting reason. It has been brought from another clause to this clause where it properly belongs. I have to ask leave to add, at the end of the new subsection (2), the words, "Provided that nothing in this section shall apply to any telephone or signalling wires or instruments as long as the conditions prescribed with reference to the installation and use of such wires and instruments are complied with, nor to any electric hand lamps of a type for the time being approved. "In South Wales some objection has been taken to the Bill as presented to your Lordships' House because it is thought that it would have the effect of stopping electric signalling in those return airways which are used for the haulage of coal, and they are not sure what the effect would be with regard to electric lamps. This Amendment is inserted to meet their objection.
Amendment moved—
Clause 68, page 45, line 3, after ("chamber") insert:
("(2) In any mine, being a mine newly opened after the passing of this Act and not being a small mine, no inflammable material likely to cause danger from lire to the persons employed below ground shall be used in the construction of the pit head frame or of the roof, if any, over the pit head: Provided that nothing in this section shall apply to any telephone or signalling wires or instruments as long as the conditions prescribed with reference to the installation and use of such wires and instruments are complied with, nor to any electric hand lamps of a type for the time being approved.
"(3) No inflammable material likely to cause danger from fire to the persons employed below ground shall, after the passing of this Act, he used in the construction of ally engine-house below ground").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 68, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 69:
Amendments moved—
Clause 69, page 45, lines 6 and 7, leave out ("the pithead and in every") and insert ("every pithead")
Clause 69, page 45, line 8, after ("used") insert ("adequate")
Clause 69, page 45, lines 10 to 19, leave out subsections ("(2) and (3)").—(Lord Emmett.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 69, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 70:
LORD EMMOTT: This Amendment refers to the position where the barometer, thermometer, and hygrometer are to be placed in the mines. It stipulates where they are to be placed, and also inserts provisions for reading and recording the registers. This is often very essential to safety in mines.
Amendment moved—
Clause 70, page 45, line 23, leave out from ("position") to the end of the line, and insert ("near a shaft or outlet both in the main intake airway and in the main return airway.
"The instruments required to be provided under this section shall be read at such intervals and by such persons as may be prescribed by general regulations, and the readings taken at the prescribed intervals shall be entered in a book to be kept at the mine for the purpose").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 70, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 71 agreed to.
Clauses 72 to 93:
LORD EMMOTT: So far as I can see,
I can now move all the Amendments down to Clause 93. I stop there because the noble Earl, Lord Dunmore, has an Amendment on the Paper which comes in at that point.
Amendments moved—
Clause 72, page 45, line 32, leave out from ("have") to the end of line 33, and insert ("under his supervision at the same time more than one person who has not had such experience, or been so employed, as aforesaid").
Clause 74, page 46, line 5, leave out ("for") and insert ("by")
Clause 74, page 46, line 7, leave out ("and for preventing such") and insert ("to prevent that").
Clause 76, page 46, line13, after (":majority") insert ("ascertained by ballot")
Clause 76, page 46, lines 13 and 14, leave out ("ascertained by ballot")
Clause 76, page 46, line 27, after ("accommodation") insert. ("and facilities")
Clause 76, page 48, line 4, after ("majority") insert ("ascertained by ballot").
Clause 79, page 49, line 20, leave out from ("division") to (o' in") in line 23
Clause 79, page 49, line 24, after ("prescribed") insert ("and in the case of an accident causing loss of life or serious personal injury notice in such form and accompanied by such particulars as may be prescribed shall also be sent to the person (if any) nominated by the persons employed at the mine for the purpose of receiving notice under this section on their behalf").
Clause 81, page 50, line 22, after ("accident") insert ("and the Secretary of State may cause any such report to be made public at such time and in such manner as he may think lit").
Clause 82, page 31, line 22, after ("make") insert ("and the Secretary of State shall cause that report to be laid in full before both Houses of Parliament")
Clause 82, page 51, leave out Clause 83.
Clause 86, page 53, line 31, after the second ("of") insert ("or the Third Schedule to").
Clause 93, page 57, line 14, after ("but") insert ("a different period and"),—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clauses 72 to 93, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 94 and 95 agreed to.
Clause 96:
Wages.
96.—(1) No wages shall be paid to any person employed in or about any mine at or within any licensed premises as defined by the Licensing (Consolidation) Act, 1910 or other house of entertainment, or any office, garden, or place belonging or contiguous thereto, or occupied therewith.
(2) The wages of all persons employed in or about any mine shall be paid weekly, if a majority of such persons So desire, and there shall be delivered to each such person a statement containing detailed particulars of how the amount paid to him is arrived at.
(3) Every person who contravenes or fails to comply with or permits any person to contravene or fail to comply with this section shall be guilty of an offence against this Act; and in the event of any such contravention or non-compliance by any person whomsoever, the owner, agent, and manager of the mine shall each be guilty of an offence against this Act, unless he proves that he had taken all reasonable means by publishing and to the best of his power enforcing the provisions of this section to prevent the contravention or non-compliance.
THE EARL OF DUNMORE: I move to leave out subsection (2), which is in no way relative to the Bill. This Bill is designed to promote the safety of those working in mines. The enforcement of weekly wages will have no effect in securing this desired result, but it is going to affect the relations between employers and employed. It is going to give to one of two contracting parties to a bargain the right of getting rid of their obligations and at the same time of retaining any consideration which they may have received from their employers under the original agreement. At the same time instead of promoting the safety of the workings in these mines and of the men, it will, I think, have the opposite result. In those parts of the country where wages are paid

913
fortnightly the amount depends on the width and thickness of the seam, the width of the place worked, the accessibility and on many other factors as regards getting the coal. This entails a lot of work, which falls on certain officials. These officials at the present moment are also responsible for supervising the safety of the workings. The result will be that either these officials must be withdrawn from their more important duties of supervising the safety of the workings in order that every week they may measure the seams and make the difficult calculations on which wages are based, or else the number of officials must be increased, which would throw an extra, heavy burden on the industry. This subsection was not originally part of this Bill. It found its way into the Bill in Grand Committee. My own belief is that it was inserted ill the Bill against the wishes of His Majesty's Government. In any case this provision is strongly objected to all over the country. It is unnecessary, and it is going to upset many existing agreements and prevent new agreements being entered into between employers and employed.
Amendment moved—
Clause 96, page 58, lines 16 to 20, leave out subsection (2).—(The Earl of Dunmore.)
LORD BELHAVEN AND STENTON: I wish to add a word to what the noble Earl who has just spoken has said, for fear it might be thought that wages would only be paid once a fortnight. At all events in that portion of Scotland in which I live, the wages of the miners are made up carefully every fortnight, but in the intermediate week a lump sum is paid in advance equal to what is considered likely to be the week's wages.
LORD EMMOTT: The Amendment which has been moved by the noble Earl raises a question which has been for many years, as your Lordships well know, a matter of great controversy. It is quite true, as the noble Earl has said, that this provision found its way into the Bill in the first instance in Grand Committee in another place, and it is quite true also that it was inserted in the Bill in Grand Committee against the wishes of the Government; but it is all the more significant that although the Government opposed the Amendment it should have been
914
inserted. It shows how strongly the Grand Committee were in favour of this being put into the Bill. The reason the Government opposed it was not because of any question of principle, but because they wished to confine this Bill to provisions for the health and safety of the workers in mines, and they did not wish contentious subjects dealing with other matters in regard to mining introduced into the Bill. That is the only reason why the Government opposed it.
As this question has been raised, I think I must state with some little detail how the matter is dealt with now in different parts of the country. It is the custom at present to pay wages weekly throughout. Lancashire and Yorkshire. In the North of England and in the Midland arid Southern districts fortnightly pay has been customary for many years, and in some parts of the country, even if this provision is passed, fortnightly pay will continue to be the custom, as it meets the wishes both of employer and employed. This provision is optional to the miners. Unless the miners ask for weekly payment, weekly payment will not, be made. In Scotland in the majority of the collieries the men are paid fortnightly, but at seventy-eight collieries they are paid weekly. In South Wales wages are paid fortnightly in the majority of the collieries, but weekly at seventy-one.
This really is a South Wales question. That is the part of the country in which it has been a burning question. And I would beg your Lordships in regard to this matter to remember that it is a burning question there. If you were to strike this provision out of the Bill at this stage I am afraid your action would be very ill received in that part of the country, which has lately been a good deal disturbed and which might very easily be disturbed again. In South Wales this is a social question. It is said that it leads to miners running into debt every week which is not the pay week. In the week in which they do not receive wages they run into debt, and that introduces a pernicious system which I think it would be very desirable to get rid of. It is argued, I know, that this change would entail in many districts an increase of the staff under ground and an increase of the clerks above ground. I am informed that in regard to South Wales there certainly is some difficulty, and there would

915
be extra expense in arranging for the weekly payment of wages, because the rate of pay is fixed not only on the coal gotten but on the timber set, the walls built, and other things which require a good deal of measurement. But I am told that the difficulty is more apparent than real, because the officials who do the work of measurement can carry it out while making inspection of the working places, and it is really doubtful whether any increase at all would be necessary in the underground staff.
It has been suggested that the difficulty might be met by introducing a system of "subbing"—that is, paying on account of the wages probably earned. But there are serious difficulties in putting that into practice, and it is felt that it would really intensify the dissatisfaction rather than satisfy the men. What is required is a weekly reckoning instead of a fortnightly reckoning, and I must appeal to the noble Earl opposite not to press his Amendment. The owners are not pressing for it as a body, and in another place, although the subject had been a matter of controversy up to the Report stage and was discussed on the Report stage, no Division was taken on it on the part of those who represent the owners. I am bound to tell your Lordships also that the Government cannot accept this Amendment, and in those circumstances I beg the noble Earl not to press it.
THE DUKE OF NORTHUMBERLAND: My Lords, I am afraid I must beg the noble Earl to press his Amendment, and, if necessary, to carry it to a Division. This Bill seems to me to he a very curious instance of slovenly legislation. It conies up to your Lordships' House and requires no fewer than 11 pages of Amendments by His Majesty's Government in order to make it intelligible, and I think that the account we have heard of the history of this clause shows that the slovenliness has not been confined merely to drafting amendments and verbal alterations. What is it the noble Lord who has just sat down has told us. He says that the Government are not in favour of introducing this clause into the Bill at all, but that when someone carried it in Grand Committee they then gave way. Why? The noble Lord has told us that the vast majority of the country is unaffected by it, or at least does not show any desire in favour of it. The whole of the North of England and the whole of Scotland have
916
made no demand for it. The noble Lord says it is a burning question in South Wales. That may be an excellent reason for making an exception with regard to South Wales, and having a special clause relating to South Wales. I express no opinion whatever on that, because I do not feel qualified to do so, but I must say it is a little suspicious for His Majesty's Government to tell us that the reason they want to introduce this into South Wales is that they are afraid of more disturbances arising. In point of fact, the argument which is used in defence of this clause even in South Wales is not that it is in itself desirable to introduce it into this Bill—because His Majesty's Government never intended it to he introduced into the Bill—but that it is a little sop to enable the Government again to escape the performance of the duty they so ill-performed before when there were disturbances in South Wales of keeping these disturbances of trade under control. This is a matter in regard to which in the North of England the very strongest feeling is felt by the coal owners; and I do submit to your Lordships that whatever may be said for or against it in South Wales, of which I know nothing, it is a monstrous thing that such a provision should be forced upon the North of England and Scotland against their will, and where, according to the noble Lord's own confession, there is no demand for it. I trust that the noble Earl will carry this Amendment to a Division, and that your Lordships will support him.
THE EARL OF DUNMORE: I regret that I am unable to fall in with the views expressed by the noble Lord who introduced this Bill. The noble Duke has put before your Lordships my main reason, which is that what is applicable, perhaps, to South Wales, is not applicable to the whole country. The noble Lord went on to give another reason. He said the men run into debt. What really does happen at the present moment is that where men are paid on the last Saturday of the fortnight, 30 per cent. of those men do not turn up to work on the following Monday, and that leads to a decrease of output as regards one day in the fortnight. If this subsection is allowed to remain in, it is going to lead to double that decreased output, because it will mean that 30 per cent. of the men will not turn up on two days of the fortnight instead of on one day as at present. It may seem a very small matter that I am asking your Lordships to divide upon, but it is all

917
part of a very large question. The coal industry has been very much hampered by recent legislation; the miners are well organised, and there really is no reason for this unnecessary interference between employers and employed. I regret that I shall have to push the matter further and ask your Lordships to divide upon the Amendment.
LORD EMMOTT: The noble Earl has said that because one day's work is lost on the Monday after the fortnight's wages are paid, therefore two days would be lost if the wages are paid weekly. I think the result would probably be quite different, and that it would be very much less likely that two days will be lost. When the men are paid fortnightly the effect obviously, from what the noble Earl has said, is that these men, having a large amount of money in their pockets make use of a considerable portion of it in a way that is not wise permanently, either to themselves or to the industry in which they are engaged, and it seems to me, as far as that goes, that that is an additional argument for paying wages weekly rather than fortnightly. The only other remark that I have to make is in reference to what the noble Duke said. I think it is a little unfair on his part, after the explanation I gave of the action of the Government in another place, to still harp upon the argument that the Government were opposed to this. I repeat that the Government were only opposed because they desired to keep out of this Bill certain contentious questions which the noble Viscount opposite, Lord Chilston, knows very well are apt to creep in whenever mining questions are considered.
VISCOUNT CHILSTON: Hear, hear.
LORD EMMOTT: One of those questions is check-weighing, and another eight hours, and this not being a question directly concerned either with the health or the safety of the workers the Government were anxious to keep it out of the Bill, simply to avoid too much time being spent in the consideration of it. I therefore do not think that that ought to be used as an argument in this matter. I do not feel that I can usefully occupy your Lordships' time by further arguing this question. I have stated the case. This really is a burning question in South Wales; it is a matter about which miners feel very deeply. This provision, which the noble Earl seeks to strike out of
918
the Bill, is not resisted by the mine-owners as a whole, and in those circumstances, and having regard to the really difficult situation in South Wales now and recently, venture once more to make an appeal to your Lordships not to press this Amendment.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I am in great sympathy with the complaint which was made just now by the noble Duke on my right. I think we might well have urged that a Bill as lengthy and complicated as this is should not have been brought to us at a period of the session when it is physically impossible for us to go through it with the attention which it deserves. But your Lordships have in fact undertaken the examination of the Bill, and I am under the impression that most of your Lordships regard it as upon the whole a useful measure and desire that it should pass into law. Is it, then, really worth while for this House under these circumstances to insist upon an Amendment of this kind which deals with a point described by the noble Lord in charge of the Bill as a burning question—I think those are the words which he used. The clause is not objected to, we understand, by a great number of the coal owners, and it is not a compulsory clause; it is only to come into operation where a majority of the men desire it. In the case where the weekly payment of wages is unmistakably desired by a large majority of the workmen, is it worth while to resist that request? I do not profess to any expert knowledge of the question, but I am bound to say that, considering all the circumstances, I hesitate to associate myself with my noble friend, and if he goes to a Division I am afraid I shall not be able to vote with him.
On Question, Amendment negatived.
Clause 96 agreed to.
Clauses 97 to 124:
LORD EMMOTT: All the other Amendments on the Paper down to the end of the clauses of the Bill are drafting Amendments, and I move them en bloc.
Amendments moved—
Clause 97, page 59, lines 17 and IS, leave out ("in the district under his charge") and insert ("in the United Kingdom whether the mine is one to which this Act applies or not").
Clause 99, page 60, line 35, leave out ("determining") and insert ("settling").
Clause 100, page 61, line 10, leave out from ("year") to ("and") in line 19.
Clause 109, page 60, line 8, after ("Act") insert ("and the provisions of this Act relating to the obstruction of inspectors shall apply as if references to inspectors, included references to special inspectors").
Clause 119, page 68, line 15, leave out ("additions") and insert ("conditions"),
Clause 121, page 68, line 26, after the first ("regulations") insert ("or")
Clause 121, page 68, lines 26 and 27, leave out
Clause 121, page 68, line 28, after ("regulations") insert ("of the mine").
Clause 122, page 69, line 5, after ("returns") insert:
"Ventilating district" means any part of a seam having an independent intake airway commencing from a main intake airway and an independent return airway terminating at a main return airway:
"'"Office at the mine "means an office on the surface of the mine;
""Small mine" means a mine in which the total number of persons employed below ground does not exceed thirty."
Clause 122, page 69, leave out Clause 123.
Clause 124, page 70, line 4, after ("he") insert:
("(i) neither is the holder of a first or second class certificate of competency under this Act, nor is twenty-five years of age or upwards and has had at least five years practical experience underground in a mine; or
(ii)").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clauses 97 to 124, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
First Schedule:
Amendment moved—
First Schedule, page 74, in heading of the table, leave out ("1911") and insert ("19").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF DUNMORE THE EARL OF DUNMORE moved to omit from the return to be submitted to the Home Office the requirement to show the "value at the pit mouth." The noble Earl said: The Amendment which I now move I am afraid is in Opposition to the next Amendments to be moved by the noble Lord in charge of this Bill. These returns of the value of the coal at the pit mouth are an entirely new departure. I cannot conceive with what object the Home Office are demanding this extra
920
information. It can do no good, and it can do a great deal of harm. Wages at present are based on the selling value of coal. Very careful calculations are made by skilled accountants and made with extreme accuracy at present, and this new demand which the Government are calling for will probably not be made up with the same care and the same accuracy as the accounts are made up on which the wages are adjusted. This return to the Government has got to be made before the 21st of January, so that there is really very little time in which to do it. But the main point is that this is a safety Bill; it is promoted with a view of securing the safety of the people who work in these mines, and I should like to know for what reason this new return is being asked. Is it being asked for with any ulterior motive as regards the further taxation of an already over-burdened industry? It all seems part of the unnecessary interference by Parliament between employers and employed, and I protest against all these things being put into a Bill which is nominally a Bill to secure the safety of the people working in the mines. I must ask the noble Lord for some reason for putting forward this new departure I see he is so enamoured of it that he is going to go three better and ask for these other returns. This has never been done before, and there can be no reason for it, unless, as I say, there is some ulterior motive in the minds of the Government.
Amendment moved—
First Schedule, Part A, page 75, leave out ("value at the pit mouth").—(The Earl of Dunmore.)
LORD EMMOTT: The noble Lord has made reference to some Amendments in my name which appear to be directly opposite to what he desires. That is perfectly true, but my Amendments are practically consequential. If the value of coal is to be given at the pit mouth there is no reason why the value of these other" minerals should not also be given. The noble Earl raises a question of principle. He objects altogether to the request to give this information. With regard to the time when the information must be given, the Act does not come into force until July, and therefore there will be no hurry about providing these statistics, by the 21st of January next. That is a minor point which I think we can dismiss from our

921
consideration. The reason these statistics are required by the Government is that every Committee and Commission which has dealt with mining statistics for many years past has recommended that this change should be made. It is quite true that one of those was a Mining Royalties Commission. I admit that. But what they say about it is this—
"We venture to suggest that the Government should consider the advisability of reorganising and extending the Department of Mines, and that to such Department should be committed the duty of obtaining and publishing accurate information with regard to the actual price of coal at the pit's mouth."
That Commission reported in 1893. In view of that recommendation Mr. Asquith, who at that time was Home Secretary, appointed a Departmental Committee to consider the whole question of mining statistics, and as a result of their Report the statistics were reorganised to the form in which they are now issued. They recommended that the owners should be required by Statute to state the average price of coal at the pit's mouth. No opportunity occurred of giving effect to these recommendations of the Committee, and in 1905 the Royal Commission on Coal Supplies referred to the inadequacy of mining statistics and stated that had the suggestions of the Departmental Committee been carried out it would have greatly assisted their inquiries. Certain statistics are published, as we know, but the information is incomplete, and the passing of the Census of Production Act has made the case for the publication of these statistics very much stronger. Under that Act the Board of Trade will collect, at intervals of probably not less than five years, information on this very point, and I think in the general interests of the country it is important that these statistics, instead of being obtained every five years, should be obtained every year. I repeat that this precise course has been recommended by every Commission and Committee that has dealt, with mining statistics during the last twenty years, and that is the reason why His Majesty's Government ask that this should remain in this Bill.
THE EARL OF DUNMORE: What this is going to lead to is that if there is any discrepancy between the figures, which doubtless there may be, that are returned to the Home Office and the figures pre-
922
sented by the accountants on which the manager of the mine bases the wages of the men, it will tend to promote an idea in the minds of the men that their employers have deliberately faked the figures, if may use the expression, in order to lower their wages. There have been enough difficulties between employers and employed in the past without creating fresh embarrassments. I am not going to trouble your Lordships by asking you to divide on this point, but I do protest against all this unnecessary legislation finding its way into this Bill. As far as I can see, the only argument which the noble Lord used was that the Government officials have intimated that it would be wise to have these returns. It seems to me that this vast number of Government officials, of whom there has been such a tremendous increase during the administration of His Majesty's Government, have not enough to do, and that these returns have been called for merely with a view of giving them some employment. However, I beg leave, with your Lordships' permission, to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendments moved—
First Schedule, page 75, under ("Fireclay") insert:
("Amount | Value at the pit mouth")
First Schedule, page 75, under ("(Raw)") insert:
("Amount | Value at the pit mouth")
First Schedule, page 75, under ("Shale") insert:
("Amount | Value at the pit mouth")
First Schedule, page 75, in the seventh column,
leave out ("Tons") and insert:
("Amount | Value at the pit mouth")
First Schedule, page 76, last line but one,
leave out ("for") and insert ("from")
First Schedule, page 77, fourth column in Table I, leave out ("by permitted igniter fuse")
First Schedule, page 77, fifth column in Table I, leave out ("other")
First Schedule, page 77, after ("(2) With fuze") insert ("(3) Otherwise")
First Schedule, page 77, page 78, in the heading to Part D, leave out ("Form of Annual Return giving the")
First Schedule, page 77, leave out ("1. Name of Mine County") and leave out ("2. Name and Postal Address of Owner").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
First Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Second Schedule agreed to.
Third Schedule:
Amendments moved—
Third Schedule, page 82, line 25, leave out from ("schedule") to ("shall") in line 26.
Third Schedule, page 82, line 27, leave out ("any inspector of the mine or").—(Lord Emmott.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Third Schedule, as amended, agreed to.
Remaining Schedule agreed to.
The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 244.)

SMALL LANDHOLDERS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 3:
Constitution of Scottish Land Court.
3.—(1) It shall be lawful for His Majesty, on t he recommendation of the Secretary for Scotland, at any time after the commencement of this Act, and from time to time as vacancies occur, to appoint not more than five persons, to be designated the Scottish Land Court this Act referred to as the Land Court) and to appoint one of such persons to be Chairman of the Court.
(2) The Chairman shall be a person who at the date of his appointment shall be an advocate of the Scottish bar of not less than ten years' standing.
(3) One of the said persons shall be a person who can speak the Gaelic language.
(4) It shall be lawful for the Secretary for Scotland to remove any member of the Land Court for inability or misbehaviour. Every order of removal shall state the reasons for which it is made and no such order shall come into operation until it has lain before both Houses of Parliament for not less than thirty days while Parliament is sitting, nor if either House passes a resolution objecting to it.
(5) If and when the Chairman is temporarily unable to attend, or his office is vacant, the Secretary for Scotland may appoint to act temporarily in his place any person having the qualification required for holding the office of Chairman and the person so appointed shall, during such inability or vacancy, have the same powers and perform the same duties as if he were the Chairman.
(6) The Secretary four Scotland shall front time to time appoint a fit person to act as principal clerk to the Land Court.
(7) The Land Court may appoint or employ such assessors, surveyors, law agents, valuers, clerks, messengers, and other persons required for the due performance of their duties, as the Treasury, on the recommendation of the Secretary for Scotland, may sanction.
(8) Any Crofters Commissioner or officer of the Crofters Commission in office at the commencement of this Act, who may not be appointed a member or an officer of the Land Court, shall receive such compensation as the Treasury may determine.
(9) There shall be paid to the Chairman of the Land Court a salary not exceeding two thousand pounds a year, and to each of the other members a salary not exceeding twelve hundred pounds a year, and such salaries shall be charged on and paid out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom, or the growing produce thereof. The Chairman shall have the same right to a retiring annuity proportionate to his salary, subject to the like conditions and incidents as if he had been appointed a judge of the Court of Session, and every such annuity shall be charged and paid as aforesaid.
(10) There shall be paid to each of the other persons appointed or employed under this section such salary or remuneration as the Treasury may sanction; and all such salaries and remuneration and the expenses of the Land Court incurred in the execution of their ditties, to such amount as may be sanctioned by the Treasury, shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament.
(11) The Land Court shall submit such estimates and keep such accounts of their receipts and expenditure, and their accounts shall be audited in accordance with such regulations, as the Treasury may direct.
(12) It shall be lawful for the Land Court from time to time to make rules for conducting the business of the Court.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (LORD PENTLAND)THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (LORD PENTLAND) formally moved to amend subsection (1), by leaving out "at any time after" and inserting "as from."
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 2, leave out ("at any time after") and insert ("as from").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved to add, at o the end of subsection (2), the words in his Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 10, after ("standing") insert ("and shall forthwith on his appointment have the same rank and tenure of office as if he had been appointed a Judge of the Court of Session").—(Lord Pentland.)
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I think, after the discussion on this point the

925
other night, that the House is entitled to some explanation from the noble Lord
LORD PENTLAND: The noble Lord raised this point in Committee, and I promised to do my best to consider it and look up the precedents. I have done that, and I find that the nearest precedent is the Act to which I referred—Section 41 of the Irish Act of 1881. That Act alludes to rank and tenure, salary and pension, and retiring allowance, I think it is called. I have also considered the noble Lord's criticism on the special question of rank. It is quite true, as he urged, that precedence is settled, not necessarily by Act of Parliament, but by His Majesty, and that, of course, would be the intention. We should follow any necessary change in the order of precedence which may be due to the creation of this new office. At the same time it did not seem to be sufficiently clear with the word "rank" omitted from this Bill, and therefore I have ventured to move it in so that if the House, on consideration, is willing to retain it, it can be retained.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: Is the noble Lord prepared to state the name of the Chairman?
LORD PENTLAND: Yes; but perhaps it would be convenient to finish this discussion first.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The noble Lord is not following the precedent which he himself quoted. He is giving the Chairman the rank and tenure of a Judge of the Court of Session.
LORD PENTLAND: But not the salary and pension. It is quite true that we do not give him the salary, but if the noble Lord will look at the fifth line on page four of the Bill he will see that he is given a retiring annuity proportionate to his salary subject to the like conditions and incidents as if he had been appointed a Judge of the Court of Session. His salary will be calculated according to the same scale.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: If these changes were to have been made at all, they ought to have been made in the
926
other House of Parliament; but I shall not press the matter to a division.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND: I move, after "Court" in subsection (4), to insert "other than the Chairman." Perhaps it would be convenient here that I should communicate to the House the name of the gentleman to whom we propose to offer the appointment of Chairman of this Land Court. His name is Mr. Neil Kennedy. I will give the House the particulars of his career. He was called to the Bar in the year 1877, and, after filling various positions, including that of Lecturer on Private International Law in Edinburgh University, in the year 1898, and the Professorship of Civil and Scots Law in the University of Aberdeen from the year 1901 to the year 1907, was appointed in the year 1907 a member of the Royal Commission on the Registration of Titles, and also in that same year he was appointed Sheriff of Renfrew and Bute. In 1908, on the death of Sir David Brand, he was appointed Chairman of the Crofters Commission. I am informed, and I think I can rely on the information placed before me, that Mr. Kennedy is distinguished for his independence of mind, his wide learning, and his legal eminence. He is second to nobody in his profession in his acquaintance with this particular branch of law, and his experience of nearly four years as Chairman of the Crofters Commission has given him a practical knowledge of a very unique description. His work as Chairman of the Crofters Commission has not only given general satisfaction, but has, I think, enhanced his reputation in his profession. He is a man whose standing in his profession would justify—and whom, I think, his professional brethren would regard of the necessary standing and eminence—his appointment to the position even of a Judge of the Court of Session, the attributes of which office we have just been considering. For these reasons, the Government consider that he is pre-eminently the man fitted to discharge successfully the duties of this new office, bearing in mind not only his personal qualities but the status and dignity of the Court over which he will preside. I may mention that in the year 1895 Mr. Kennedy contested Inverness-shire in the Liberal interest, but, as noble Lords from Scotland well know, most advocates of standing on one side or the other of politics go through the same experience.
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 14, after ("Court") insert ("(other than the Chairman)").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 4:
Constitution of Board of Agriculture for Scotland.
4.—(1) It shall be lawful for His Majesty on the recommendation of the President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, at any time after the commencement of this Act, and from time to time as vacancies occur, to appoint not more than three persons to be designated the Scottish Department of Agriculture for Scotland (in this Act referred to as the Department) and to appoint one of such persons to be Chairman of the Department. Any act or thing required or authorised to be done by the Department may be done by any one or more of the members thereof as the President may from time to time direct.
(2) The Department shall be charged with the general duty of promoting the interests of agriculture, forestry, and other rural industries in Scotland, and shall also exercise and perform any powers and duties which are or may be conferred on or transferred to them under the provisions of this Act. In the discharge of their duties they shall comply with such instructions or regulations as may from time to time be issued by the President, and they shall submit an annual report of their proceedings to him, which report shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament.
(3) The Department may undertake the collection and preparation of statistics relating to agriculture, forestry, and other rural industries, and may make or aid in making such inquiries, experiments, and research, and collect or aid in collecting such information relating thereto as they think advisable.
(4) It shall be the duty of the Department to promote, aid, and develop instruction in agriculture, forestry, and other rural industries.
(5) The Department shall take such steps as they think proper for the promotion and development of agricultural organisation and co-operation.
(6) Without prejudice to the provisions of the immediately preceding subsections, such one of the members of the Department as the President shall from time to time appoint shall be designated the Commissioner for Small Holdings and shall be specially charged with the duties hereinafter committed to him.
(7) The President shall from time to time appoint a fit person to act as secretary to the Board.
(8) The members of the Department shall hold office during His Majesty's pleasure. The Department may, subject to the approval of the President, appoint or employ such officers, clerks, and other persons as the Treasury may sanction.
(9) The members of the Department and other persons appointed or employed under this section shall respectively receive such salary or remuneration as the Treasury may sanction, and all such salaries or remuneration and the expenses of the Department incurred in the execution of their duties, to such amount as may be sanctioned by the Treasury, shall be paid out of moneys provided by Parliament.
(10) The Department shall submit such estimates and keep such accounts of their receipts and expenditure, and their accounts shall be audited in accordance with such regulations as the Treasury may direct.
(11) It shall the lawful for the President from time to time to time by order under his hand—

(a) To direct that from and after the date fixed by the order such powers and duties of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries exercisable in or in relation to Scotland as may with the consent of the Treasury be specified in the order, shall be transferred to the-Board, either unconditionally or subject to such conditions as may with the like consent be prescribed in the order; and

(b) To direct that from and after the (late fixed-by the order such powers and duties under the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, 1897, as may, with the consent of the Treasury, be specified in the order, shall (not being powers for the purchase of land) be exercised and performed throughout Scotland as well as in congested parishes or districts thereof, or made applicable, with any necessary adaptations, to the purposes of the Landholders Acts.

(12) Before any such order is made, the draft thereof shall be laid before each House of Parliament for not less than two months while Parliament is sitting, and if either House, before the expiration of such period of two months, presents an address to His Majesty against the draft or any part thereof, no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, without prejudice to the making of any new draft order.
(13) An order under this section may provide for all matters which appear to the President necessary or proper for giving full effect to the order, or to a previous order, including, with the consent of the Treasury, matters relating to the adjustment and disposal of any property, debts, and liabilities which may be affected thereby, or to the employment of any officers who may be transferred and the regulation of their duties.
(14) An order duly made under this section shall take effect as if it were enacted in this Act.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved to omit from the beginning of the clause the words "President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries," and to insert "Secretary for Scotland."
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 20, leave out ("President of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland").—(Lord Pentland.)
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: This, again, is a reversal of what was done on a previous stage of the Bill in this House, and I think, if there has been any general arrangement made, we are entitled to some sort of statement with regard to it, especially as this matter bears very strongly on the important question of the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act. I think the noble Lord, before he asks us to go back on a decision already come to, should give us some reason for it.
LORD PENTLAND: Your Lordships will remember the discussion which we had upon this subject on the Committee stage of the Bill, and it would not, I think, be agreeable, or to your convenience, that I should repeat the general arguments I then urged in favour of the course which the Government have proposed in this matter. I then had the honour of stating plainly to the House that the Government consider this vital to the Bill—that is to say, the retention of their scheme of establishing a separate Board of Agriculture in Scotland for the purposes named in the Bill. Objection was taken to that course, and your Lordships inserted a series of Amendments which entirely destroyed the machinery of the Bill on the one hand, and on the other failed to insert in the Bill any co-ordinated scheme in its place. Under these circumstances I felt that it would only be right to place this Amendment upon the Paper so that the House might have an opportunity of reconsidering their attitude, especially in the light of what I am now prepared to state in regard to the most controversial part of the proposals—namely, the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act. Your Lordships will recollect that a debate took place especially on that point, that I then stated in regard to that subject that I recognised the strength of opinion of this House in favour of the retention of that administration by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries, and that I also undertook to represent to my colleagues the opinion which had been expressed here in that sense. Since then I have discharged those undertakings; and while the Government still recognise the force of the arguments on account of which they inserted in the Bill this provision for the transfer of the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act to Scotland—while the reasons seem to us as cogent as they ever were for this transfer, still we recognise that this House is strongly against such a proposal, and therefore I shall not oppose the retention of those particular powers by the Board in London. I hope—and I think the discussion which took place last week affords some grounds for hoping—that as these administrative powers with regard to diseases of animals are to be retained in London, your Lordships may be agreeable to accept the remainder of the proposals of the Government in regard to the setting up of a separate Board of Agriculture in Scotland.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: On that, I must ask this question before deciding whether or not to press our opposition to a Division. Are we to understand that the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act will be retained in the power of the Board of Agriculture in London, and will not be removable except by an amending Statute—by all Act of Parliament?
LORD PENTLAND: That is so.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: And that there will be no proposal to transfer the powers either by Orders in Council or in any other way except by an amending statutory enactment?
LORD PENTLAND: That is clear on the face of the proposals, and further than that I propose not to oppose the Amendment which is to be moved by my noble friend Lord Burghclere on this point, which makes it clear that except by Parliamentary enactment such a transfer cannot take place.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: The noble Lord did not say that he was going to accept the Amendment, and even now he does not say whether he is going to support it with all the force of the Government in another place. I think we must clearly understand where we are. So far as I am concerned—I say it deliberately, having carefully thought it over—before I personally will consent to the transfer of the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act to any authority other than the Imperial authority, I would prefer to lose the Bill; and I want to know whether, if we give way now, we are likely to be told afterwards that we have given way once and for all and have sunk our opinions on this important matter. I frankly say to the noble Lord that if he had not met us thus far I should have opposed the Amendment which he is now making, and so kept the whole administration of agriculture under the Board of Agriculture in London. I still think that best in the interests of agriculture, not only of Scotland but of the whole of Great Britain. The noble Lord said he observed that the House had formed a strong opinion on this matter. I beg him to note that this House is of that opinion, not from any selfish reason of its own, but because the members of the House believe that in that

931
they are voicing the opinions of the agricultural community of Scotland. There is no sort of proof that has been given to the contrary.
I notice that the noble Lord received a deputation the other day from an important society in the South-west of Scotland who had passed a resolution agreeing not to the proposal in the Bill, but to the proposal for a separate Department of Agriculture with a Minister responsible for it. A correspondent has supplied me with a little information about that resolution. It was passed at an annual meeting of the association, but on the notice paper calling the meeting there was not given the slightest indication that any such resolution was to be proposed, so that those who were opposed to it in the society not only were ignorant of the fact that such a resolution was going to be proposed, but they had not the opportunity of expressing their opinions about it. What value a resolution passed under those circumstances can be I am at a loss to imagine. I hold in my hand a copy of the notice calling the meeting, and there is no doubt whatever that upon it there is no indication of any kind that such a resolution was going to be proposed.
I deeply regret that for the first time the interests of agriculture in Scotland are to be separated from those in England. Like the noble Lord, I am not going over the reasons which I gave for holding that opinion. We do not want a revised debate on this occasion. I only say that my opinions on the merits of the question are absolutely unchanged, and if I could have enforced my view I should have endeavoured to do it. The noble Lord knows that why it cannot be done is that by the structure of the Bill and its financial provisions the whole of the money left in the hands of the Congested Districts Board is transferred to the new Board of Agriculture—I do not know whether we have any power over that or not—and I dare say questions of privilege might be raised in another place if we attempted to deal with it. So far as I am concerned, I think that if there had been any intention at all of meeting our views the matter could have been adjusted in another place. The noble Lord has said over and over again that in his opinion this matter is vital to the Bill, and therefore we cannot expect him to give us any assistance.
932
I say again that, so far as I am personally concerned, if it had been intended to do anything to pave the way for transferring the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act to this new Department which is being established, I should have preferred to lose the Bill. I repeat that this is contrary to the wish of all the best agricultural opinion in Scotland. I believe it to be contrary to their interest, and although it is not altogether wise to prophesy until you know, I prophesy with the utmost confidence that in the course of a very few years the best agricultural opinion in Scotland will continue deeply to regret this change. I can only record my opinion; but having the assurance of the noble Lord that the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act is to be left with the existing Department and only to be transferable by actual legislation, I have nothing more to say, and I shall not oppose the Amendment which the noble Lord now moves.
LORD BURGHCLERE: I ventured on a previous occasion to trouble your Lordships at such considerable length on the question of the transference of these powers to a Scottish Board of Agriculture that if I were to repeat my arguments now it would simply be an outrage upon the House. I merely rise to say that I have heard with the deepest satisfaction the statement of my noble friend the Secretary for Scotland. I gather from his remarks that he is prepared to accept the Amendment which stands in my name to his own Amendment, and that the Government are also prepared to accept that Amendment when it goes to the Lower House of Parliament. Under these circumstances I rejoice very much that my noble friend opposite has withdrawn his opposition, and I am quite certain that not only agriculturists in Scotland but in England also will rejoice to hear the decision of the Government on this question. I would say that I myself, sitting as I do on this side of the House and anxious as I am to support my noble friend with his Bill, agree with the weighty words used by my noble friend Lord Balfour to-day, and those used the other day by the noble Viscount, Lord St. Aldwyn; and if the Government had insisted upon transferring these powers to a Scottish Board of Agriculture and doing away with the central control which has done so much for agriculture in Great Britain, I for my part would have opposed

933
it even if it brought about the destruction of the Bill.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Lord Balfour has announced his intention not to oppose this Amendment, and I think it only right that I should point out that this concession on his part is a very great concession, and that it proceeds not only from him but from this side of the House generally. The noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland announced to us the other Clay, and he has repeated it to-night, that he regarded this matter as vital to the Bill. Your Lordships have given way upon it, and I merely wish to impress upon him that this is a very great concession on our part, because there are other matters which are equally vital to the Bill and which very likely will come up hereafter, and I would ask the noble Lord to keep this in his mind when those matters come to be dealt with.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I merely desire to say that I entirely agree in principle with the proposal which was submitted to the House by my noble friend Lord Balfour of Burleigh. I believe the course which he recommended was the proper and logical course to take. In my view, the administration of the whole of the agriculture of the United Kingdom ought properly to be left under the Board of Agriculture in this city. To my mind the attempt to distinguish in this way between Scottish agriculture and British agriculture is most unwise and likely to involve the country in very serious risks. But it has been made clear to us that there is no prospect of obtaining from His Majesty's Government the kind of settlement that we desire. I am therefore grateful to them for having met us at any rate to the extent of dealing in a proper manner with the question of the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act. By reserving that and making that a matter of national concern and not purely of local concern, something, at any rate, has been done to save the agricultural community from a risk which might have led to the most fatal results.
VISCOUNT GALWAY: As this is a matter which affects England also, I think it would be more satisfactory to this House if we could have an assurance from the noble Lord that if the Amendment referred
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to is accepted the Government will take care that it is not changed or reversed in another place.
LORD PENTLAND: That, is so; the Government will stand by its decision, of course.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND then moved the first series of Amendments consequential upon the Amendment just agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 4, line 21, leave out ("at any time after") and insert ("as from")
Page 4, line 23, leave out ("Scottish Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 4, lines 24 and 25, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 4, line 26, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 4, line 27, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 4, line 28, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland")
Page 4, line 29, after ("direct") insert ("Provided that all deeds, writs, and documents to be signed or executed by or on behalf of the Board may be signed or executed by any one of the members thereof and the secretary to the Board. The Board may sue or be sued under the designation aforesaid, and service on them of all legal processes and notices shall be effected by service on their secretary").
Page 4, line 30, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 4, line 37, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland")
Page 4, line 40, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").
Page 5, line 4, leave out ("Department") and insert"(Board")
Page 5, line 7, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 5, lines 11 and 12, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 5, line 12, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland")
Page 5, line 16, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland")
Page 5, line 18, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 5, line 19, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 5, line 20, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland")
Page 5, line 22, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 5, line 26, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 5, line 29, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 5, line 33, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 33, to end of line 11 on page 6 leave out subsection (11) and insert the following new subsections:
("(11) The power sand duties of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries exercisable in or in relation to Scotland under the enactments specified in the First Schedule to this Act or under any local Act, shall be transferred to the Board, or in the case of the powers and duties of any or offer, to such member or officer of the Board as the Board nominate for the purpose.
"(12) Subject as hereinafter provided, it shall be lawful for His Majesty in Council by Order made after consultation with the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries and the Secretary for Scotland and with the consent of the Treasury, to transfer to the Board any powers and Duties of the Board of Apiculture and Fisheries exercisable in or in relation to Scotland which are not transferred by this Act and to make any adjustment consequential on any transfer by or under this section; and to provide for any matter necessary or proper for giving full effect to any such transfer".)—(Lord Pentland.)
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: Subsection (12) of the clause will stand, I suppose?
LORD PENTLAND: Yes. Subsection (12) stands, but becomes another number.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, lines 19 to 27, leave out subsections (13) and (14) and insert the following new subsection:
("(14) Nothing in this section shall transfer, or authorise the transfer of any powers or duties under the Survey Act, 1870".)—(Lord Pentland.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Will the noble Lord tell me what is the reason for leaving out subsection (13)?
LORD PENTLAND: The noble Earl will see that that is all right.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD BURGHCLERE: We now come to the Amendment which was referred to at an earlier part of the evening. I propose to acid, at the end of the new subsection which my noble friend has just inserted in the Bill, the words" or any powers or duties exercisable under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, or any enactment amending or extending the same. "If those words are added to the Bill I am informed, and my opinion is confirmed by the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland, that it will not be possible for the Secretary for Scotland or the Government of the day to transfer under
936
this Bill, as was originally proposed, the administration of the Contagious Diseases of Animals Act to a separate Board in Scotland, and that no such step can be taken by them afterwards except by legislation. I think my Amendment makes the position we arrived at in Committee stage absolutely safe, and I am certain that when the agriculturists of England and Scotland become aware of what the Government have done they will be very thankful for the concession which has been made. I have not the slightest doubt myself, and I never had any doubt, that if the Bill stood as it was originally introduced and these powers had been transferred to a Scottish Board—if the control of these important Acts were taken away from the central authority at present established in London, I am certain it would have been a great disadvantage to our agriculturists and especially our breeders of stock. It is the success of the Central Board in Great Britain which has given confidence to stock breeders all over the country. It has done more than that; it has given confidence in those foreign countries to which at the present moment we export our prize cattle. It is not a very large export trade, but it is an increasing one especially to Argentina, and I am quite certain that if this proposition had been retained in the Bill as it originally stood it would have shaken the confidence of those cattle dealers in foreign ports who buy our cattle, and would have dealt a very serious blow and proved a hindrance to our export trade. I cannot sit down without saying how grateful I am to my noble friend and the Government for their acceptance of this Amendment, which I am certain will be very acceptable to all agriculturists in Scotland.
Amendment moved—
After ("1870") in the new subsection (14), insert ("or any powers or duties exercisable under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, or any enactment amending or extending the same").—(Lord Burghclere.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 5:
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 29, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to
Clause 6:
Amendments moved—
Page 7, line 14, leave out ("Department") and insert ('"Board")
Page 7, line 16, leave out ("President") and insert.("Secretary for Scotland").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 7:
Amendments moved—
Page 7, line 24, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 7, line 41, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").
Page 8, line 13, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 8, line 20, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 8, line 20, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 8, line 29, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 8, line 34, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").
Page 9, lines 31 and 32, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").
Page 10, lines 10 and 11, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 10, line 19, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 10, line 21, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND had an Amendment on subsection (16)—
(16) Except by agreement, a new holder shall not be registered—

(a) in respect of any land being or forming part of a farm not exceeding one hundred and fifty acres or if exceeding one hundred and fifty acres or of an annual value as entered in the valuation roll not exceeding eighty pounds occupied by a person who has no personal interest in any other farm: Provided that nothing herein contained shall operate to prevent the registration otherwise than by agreement of two or more new holders in respect of the whole of such farm, not being a farm wholly or mainly pastoral, where no other land is available in the neighbourhood of any existing village or township; or

(b) in respect of any land being or forming part of a farm occupied subject to a lease which was in force at Whitsunday nineteen hundred and eleven, so long as the lease remains in force.

The noble Lord moved to omit from paragraph (a) the words "or if exceeding one hundred and fifty acres or of an annual
938
value as entered in the valuation roll not exceeding eighty pounds occupied by a person who has no personal interest in any other farm," and to insert the words in his Amendment. He said: This is really carrying out what we agreed to in Committee, and it has, I believe, the approval of the noble Lord, Lord Clinton, at whose instance the Amendment was put in. Except for the words "but is wholly or mainly pastoral," I think it carries out what we agreed.
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 28, leave out from ("acres") to ("provided") in line. 32, and insert ("occupied by a person who has no personal interest in any other farm, or in the case of a farm so occupied which exceeds one hundred and fifty acres but is wholly or mainly pastoral, not exceeding an annual value as entered in the valuation roll of eighty pounds").—(Lord Pentland.)
LORD CLINTON: I should like to remind your Lordships that when I first moved my Amendment in Committee I asked for something more than the noble Lord finally agreed to accept. I asked that farms should be protected which exceeded 150 acres and which did not exceed an annual value of £100. On the request of the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland I agreed to his suggestion that I should alter the £100 to £80 of I annual value. Now, however, I am asked to accept some further whittling down, and to accept the definition of a farm as one that is "wholly or mainly pastoral." I am not going to raise any objection to it, because, as the noble Lord perfectly rightly says, it meets the main point with regard to these farms that have a small amount of arable land and a considerable amount of pasture, the farm consequently being of a large acreage but held at a low rental. The Amendment even as altered still meets my point, and I do not, therefore, propose to take objection to what the noble Lord proposes.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendments moved—
Page 11, line 13, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 11, line 15, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 8:
Amendments moved—
Page 11, line 22, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 11, line 25, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 11, line 28, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 11, line 29, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 11, line 37, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").
Page 12, line 6, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 12, lines 8 and 9, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 9:
Amendment moved—
Page 12, line 14, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 10:
Amendment moved—
Page 13, line 8, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 15:
Registration.
15.—(1) The procedure in connection with applications for registration under this Act shall be regulated as may be prescribed in rules of the Land Court.
(2) Registration under this Act shall be constituted by an order of the Land Court granting registration, duly recorded, with the application on which it proceeds, in the Landholders' Holdings Book.
LORD PENTLAND: I move, after the word "registration" in subsection (1), to insert "of new holders." This is really precautionary in order to save misunderstanding. The registration only applies to new holders.
Amendment moved—
Page 14, line 24, after ("registration") insert ("of new holders").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 16:
Amendments moved—
Page 14, line 38, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").
Page 15, line 6, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 15, line 13, after ("registration") insert ("otherwise than by agreement").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 17:
Amendments moved—
Page 15, line 23, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 15, line 27, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 15, line 31, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 15, line 38, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").
Page 16, line 2, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 18:
Amendments moved—
Page 16, line 15, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 16, line 16, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 16, line 18, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board ").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 19:
Declaration of law as to resumption of holdings.
19. Without prejudice to the generality of the power to authorise resumption by the landlord for some reasonable purpose having relation to the good of the holding or of the estate, conferred by section two of the Act of 1886, the feuing of land, or the occupation by a landlord for the purpose of personally residing thereon of a holding, being his only landed estate, shall respectively be deemed a reasonable purpose as aforesaid.
LORD PENTLAND: The purpose of this Amendment is really explained by the words themselves. It is desirable that we should safeguard ancient monuments and objects of historical or archæological interest from destruction or injury. I move to insert these words after the words "being his only landed estate."
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 25, after ("estate") insert ("or the protection of an ancient monument or other object of historical or archæological interest from destruction or injury").—(Lord Pentland.)
LOED BURGHCLERE: As I am the Chairman of the Royal Commission on Ancient Monuments, I should like to ask my noble friend a question. The clause to which this is an Amendment is in somewhat legal phraseology, and I should like to know from him whether I interpret the meaning rightly. I conclude it means that if there should happen to be an old ruin, for example, on one of these holdings, which the landlord considers to be in a state of disrepair or in peril of injury from some cause or another, he would have the right to go on to the small holding, although it was in the possession of the tenant, for the purpose of repairing that monument if he so thought fit, and would be at liberty to take the necessary steps for the purpose of preserving the monument from destruction.
LORD PENTLAND: There is a little more than that in it. It really gives power to the landlord to resume possession of a particular part of the holding upon which there happens to be standing some ancient monument or other object of archæological interest and take it into his own possession and keeping if he so desires.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 23:
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line26, leaveout ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 25:
Jurisdiction of Land Court.
25.—(1) The Land Court shall be a body corporate with a common seal. Judicial notice shall be taken by all courts of justice of the corporate seal of the Land Court, and any order or other instrument purporting to be signed with it shall be received as evidence without further proof. All orders and determinations of the Land Court shall be in writing.
(2) For the purposes of the Landholders Acts, the Land. Court shall have full power and jurisdiction to hear and determine all matters, whether of law or fact, and no other court shall review the orders or determinations of the Land Court, subject always to the provisions of sections seven
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and seventeen of this Act: Provided that the Land Court may, if they think fit, and shall, on the request of any party unless they consider that such request is frivolous or vexatious, state a special case on any question of law arising in any proceedings pending before them, for the opinion of either division of the Court of Session, who are hereby authorised finally to determine the same.
(3) The Land Court may, without prejudice to any provision contained in section seven of this Act, ascertain the facts in any case by hearing parties and examining witnesses, or by means of affidavits, or by such other mode of inquiry as they may deem appropriate, and may require the production of all books, papers, plans, and documents relating to the case, and without prejudice to the provisions of section twenty-four of the Act of 1886, they may summon and examine on oath such witnesses as they think fit to call or allow to appear before them. They may, when sitting in open court, report in writing to the Lord Ordinary on the Bills any person who has been guilty of contempt of court; and the Lord Ordinary may punish such person as if the con tempt had been committed in his own court.
(4) The Land Court may determine the amount of the expenses in any proceedings before the Court and the proportion to be borne by the different parties.
(5) Three members of the Land Court shall be a quorum: Provided that it shall be lawful for the Land Court to delegate such of their powers as they think expedient to any one member or to any two members of the Court, with or without the assistance of one or more land valuers, assessors, or other skilled persons, and from time to time to revoke, alter, or modify any such delegation of powers; but any order or determination arrived at under such delegation shall be subject to review upon appeal by three or more members of the Court (including where such court of review consists of three members not more than one member who was a party to such order or determination) sitting together, one of whom shall be chairman of the Land Court.
(6) An order of the Land Court may be presented to the sheriff, and the sheriff, if satisfied that the order has been duly recorded, shall pronounce decree in conformity with such order on which execution and diligence shall proceed.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved to omit from the proviso in subsection (2) the words "may if they think fit, and." The noble Lord said: Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to make a slight explanation here. This Amendment and the other Amendments all go together. This clause gives power to the Land Court to state a special case on questions of law to a higher Court, and that discretion to state a special case as it stands in the Bill is guarded by this qualification, that they may refuse to state such a case if they consider it frivolous or vexatious. The noble Viscount opposite (Lord St. Aldwyn) suggests that that discretion which in the Bill is left with the Land Court should be handed over to a Judge of the Court of Session, and he has on the Paper an Amendment to insert in

943
the clause words to the effect that the Land Court shall, on the request of any party, if a Judge of the Court of Session certifies that such request is not frivolous or vexatious, state a case. The Government prefer the Bill as it stands and take objection to the suggestion of the noble Viscount, but in order to meet him, if he really feels bound to press the point, which I trust he will not do, the Government would offer him as an alternative the omission of the words "unless they consider such a request frivolous or vexatious," as they would much rather have it mandatory on the Land Court to state a case on the request of the parties, leaving the parties themselves to bear any responsibility which may attach to them for having a case stated under circumstances which are frivolous or vexatious.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 17, leave out from ("Court") to ("shall") in line 18.—(Lord Pentland.)
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: I am very much obliged to the noble Lord. I think his Amendment is much better than mine, and I willingly accept it. I do not quite understand, however, how the words will read. Does the noble Lord intend to leave out the words "may if they think fit"? If so, I would ask him whether that is quite advisable, because if the Land Court considers that in some particular case there is a difficult point of law involved it would prevent them from stating a case and getting it settled. Is there any harm in the words?
LORD PENTLAND: No, I think not.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: That is the noble Lord's own Amendment.
LORD PENTLAND: I think I would prefer not to have this Amendment made. I beg, therefore, to withdraw it.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: I do not move the Amendment standing in my name to which Lord Pentland referred.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND then moved to omit from subsection (2) the words "unless they consider that such request is frivolous or vexatious."
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 18, leave out from ("party") to ("state") in line 19.—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND: By the next Amendment it is proposed to give the Chairman of the Land Court the same power as the Lord Ordinary to punish contempt of Court. A Lord Ordinary has the same powers with regard to punishment for contempt as the Inner House has. These powers are admonition, suspension from office in the case of a person practising before the Court, fine, and imprisonment. Contempt may be either direct, as; in the case of disobedience of the orders I or insult to the person of the Judge, or indirect by other acts calculated to impede or prevent the due administration of justice. When a sentence of imprisonment is imposed it may be either for a definite period (the length of which is in the discretion of the Judge, having, of course, regard to the nature and magnitude of the contempt) or for an indefinite period, as, for instance, until an order of Court is obeyed.
Amendment moved—
Page 19, line 36, after ("Court") insert ("Provided that when the Chairman is so sitting he shall have the same power as the Lord Ordinary to punish contempt of court").—(Lord Pentland.)
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I understand that the noble Lord is only i going to put it in the power of the head of the Court to do this. As the Bill stood, and I took exception to it the other day, it might apparently have been done by any temporary Chairman in the absence of the judicial Chairman; but I think now I can withdraw my objection.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 9, after ("be"(insert ("the").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 26:
Supplementary provisions and restrictions.
26.—(1) For the purposes of the Landholders Acts, a holding shall be deemed to include any right in pasture or grazing land held or to be held by the tenant or landholder whether alone or in common with others, and the site of any dwelling-house erected or to be erected on the holding or

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held or to be held therewith, and of any offices or other conveniences connected with such dwelling-house.
(2) A person shall not be admissible to registration as a new holder under this Act in respect of land belonging to more than one landlord or in respect of more than one holding and shall not be held an existing yearly tenant or a qualified leaseholder in respect" thereof unless such land or holdings have been worked as one holding.
(3) A person shall not be held an existing yearly tenant or a qualified leaseholder under this Act in respect of—

(a) Any land the present rent of which within the meaning of this Act exceeds fifty pounds in money, unless such land (exclusive of any common pasture, or grazing, held or to be held therewith) does not exceed fifty acres (but without prejudice to the power of the Land Court, in determining from time to time a fair rent, to fix a rent exceeding fifty pounds); or

(b) Any land being garden ground only, appurtenant to a house; or

(e) Any land within the parliamentary, police, or municipal boundary of any burgh or police burgh; or

(d) Any land being a market garden within the meaning of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act. 1908; or

(e) Any land being or forming part of any glebe, or any small holding under the Small Holdings Act, 1892, or any allotment under the Allotments (Scotland) Act, 1892, or the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894; or

(f) Any land that is not a holding within the meaning of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act. 1908; or

(g) Any land being woodland, or being or forming part of the home farm of any estate, or of any policy or park, or of any pleasure ground or other land used for the amenity or convenience of any residence or farmsteading; or being permanent grass park held for the purposes of a business or calling not primarily agricultural or pastoral, including that of butcher, cattle-dealer, and the like; or

(h) Any land bona fide held and used for purposes of public recreation; or

(i) Any land acquired, whether compulsorily or by agreement, for any undertaking of a public nature, under the authority of any Act of Parliament or any order having the force of an Act of Parliament.

(4) A person shall not be admissible to registration as a new holder under this Act in respect of any land referred to in paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e), or, except by agreement, in respect of any land referred to in paragraphs (f), (g), (h), or (i) of the immediately preceding subsection.
(5) Nothing in this Act shall operate to prevent the registration of a new holder or the enlargement of a holding (whether by agreement or otherwise in either case) in respect of land comprised in a deer forest or otherwise kept or pre served mainly or exclusively for sporting purposes, but subject always to the provisions of section seven and section sixteen of this Act, as the case maybe.
(6) Notwithstanding anything contained in sub section one of this section, the holding of any existing yearly tenant or qualified leaseholder within the meaning of this Act shall not for the purposes of the Landholders Acts be deemed to include any lands or heritages at the commencement of this Act forming part of such holding and occupied by a sub-tenant of such existing yearly tenant or qualified leaseholder, whether paying rent or not.
(7) A person shall not be held an existing yearly tenant or a qualified leaseholder under this Act in respect of a holding referred to in section thirty-three of the Act of 1886, but nothing in that section shall operate to prevent the registration of a new holder by agreement in respect of a holding referred to therein, or the application of the Landholders Acts to such new holder and his statutory successors in respect of the holding. For the word "nor" where last occurring in that section the word "or" is hereby substituted.
(8) The provisions of section two of this Act shall extend to and include joint tenants being existing crofters, existing yearly tenants, or qualified leaseholders; but not more than one person shall be registered as a new holder in respect of any holding, and (without prejudice to the continuance of a joint tenancy through statutory successors) where at any time after the commencement of this Act a holding is held by a single landholder, or a holding which has been held in joint tenancy ceases to be so held, it shall not be competent for more than one person to be a landholder in respect of such holding.
(9) Except so far as may be inconsistent with any express provision of this Act the tenancy of a landholder under the Landholders Acts, shall, in the case of every existing crofter, be deemed to be in all respects a continuance of his tenancy as a crofter under the Crofters Acts, and all con tracts and other deeds and documents shall be read and construed accordingly.
(10) A person shall not be subject to the pro visions of this Act regarding statutory small o tenants who in terms of this section would be disqualified from being an existing yearly tenant i or a qualified leaseholder.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved to add at: the end of paragraph (b) of subsection (3) the words in his Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 20, line 38, after ("or") insert ("any land to which as the site of or as required for the protection of or for access to an ancient monument or other object of historical or archæological interest the Land Court determine that the Landholders Acts should not apply; or").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 27, leave out ("(f)").—(Lord Pentland.)
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I should like to have some explanation of this. This paragraph (f) was in the Bill from the very commencement, and I do not see why it should be left out at this stage.
LORD PENTLAND: It is rather a technical matter. As the Bill was first introduced it was provided that a person should not be held to be an existing yearly tenant or a qualified leaseholder in respect of—and then followed the words "any land that is not either wholly agricultural or wholly pastoral or in part agricultural and as to the residue pastoral." That was the earlier form of paragraph (f). It was felt that those words were not quite satisfactory, and the words in paragraph (f) as it now stands were accordingly substituted. The definition of a holding in the Agricultural Holdings Act of 1908 is as follows—
"' Holding' means any piece of land held by a tenant, which is either wholly agricultural or wholly pastoral, or in part agricultural and as to the residue pastoral, or in whole or in part cultivated as a market garden, and which is not let to the tenant during his continuance in any office, appointment, or employment held under the landlord."
We can ignore market gardens, because they are safeguarded specially, and we can ignore service holdings because they are also dealt with specially under the Bill. The real substance of this matter is this. It is, of course, obvious that new holdings may be constituted out of pieces of land not held by separate tenants hitherto. The intention of altering paragraph (f) is simply to make it clear that new holdings are to be agricultural or pastoral or both. As it stands it is possibly not so clear as it might be, and for that reason it is proposed to insert the Amendment which I have to put down at the end of sub section (4), simply applying paragraph (f) in words rather than by reference. I hope the House will see fit to follow that suggestion.
LORD CLINTON: Is there any real advantage to anyone in leaving paragraph (f) in the clause at all, because you have already taken out of it under a former subsection the part which relates to market gardening. You have also taken out of it, under subsection (7), that part which relates to service occupation, and you leave nothing at all except the ordinary holding which is either wholly agricultural or wholly pastoral or part agricultural and part pastoral, or whatever it may be. Subsection (7), of course, applies to the whole of those as far as existing tenants are concerned. You yourselves apply it in subsection (4) to be taken for new
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holdings, and it seems to me that the addition of those particular words at the end of subsection (4) accomplish the whole object which you can possibly gain by leaving paragraph (f) in the clause as it stands. I do not in the least want to leave it out; I only want to inquire whether there is any real object in its remaining in.
LORD PENTLAND: It is simply for clearness. I think we shall get rather into confusion if we do not follow the course I have advised. Paragraph (f) is not moved out—it is only the letter I move to omit.
LORD CLINTON: The paragraph remains in?
LORD PENTLAND: Yes.
LORD CLINTON: I was under a misapprehension. It was the paragraph, of course, to which I was alluding.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND: I move to add at the end of subsection (4) the words in my Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 21, line 28, after ("subsection") insert ("or in respect of any holding which is not either wholly agricultural or wholly pastoral, or in part agricultural and as to the residue pastoral").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 28:
Transfer of powers and duties. 60 & 61 Vict. c. 53.
28. From and after the date of the commencement of this Act the Crofters Commission established by section seventeen of the Act of 1886, shall case to exist, and all the powers and duties vested in or imposed on the Crofters Commission by any Act of Parliament in force at such date shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be vested in, transferred to, and imposed on the Land Court, and, except as otherwise provided by this Act, all such powers and duties shall be exercised and performed by the Land Court, as the case may be, as nearly as may be in like manner and subject to the same conditions, liabilities, and incidents respectively as such powers and duties might before such date have been exercised and performed by such Commission, and in the construction and for the purposes of any Act of Parliament, contract, or other deed,

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passed, entered into, or executed, or of any action or proceeding raised before such date, the name of the Land Court shall be deemed to be substituted for such Commission.
LORD PENTLAND: This Amendment to insert a new clause after Clause 28 is consequential.
LORD PENTLAND: The first is a drafting Amendment at the commencement of the clause.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 1, leave out ("the date of").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND: The Amendments down to line 12 are all consequential in respect of the change from "Department" to "Board."
Amendments moved—
Page 23, line 3, after ("1886") insert ("and the Congested Districts (Scotland) Commissioners established by the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, 1897")
Page 23, line 7, after ("Court") insert ("and all the powers and duties vested in or imposed on the (Congested Districts (Scotland) Commissioners by the Congested Districts (Scotland) Act) 1807, shall, subject as aforesaid be vested in, transferred to, and imposed on the Board")
Page 23, line 9, after ("Court") insert ("or the Board")
Page 23, line 12, after ("Commission") insert ("or Commissioners respectively")
Page 23, line 14, leave out ("or other deed") and insert ("order, regulation, decree, award or other document made")
Page 23, line 16, after ("Court") insert ("or the Board as the case may be")
Page 23, line 17, after ("Commission") insert ("or Commissioners respectively").—(Lord Pent-land.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 17, after ("Commission") insert as a now subsection:
(2) All powers and duties transferred to the Board, from the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries by this Act, or any Order in Council made in pursuance thereof, shall be exercised and performed by the Board as nearly as may be in like manner and subject to the same conditions, liabilities, and incidents as such powers and duties might before the date of transfer have been exercised and performed by the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries; and in the construction and for the purposes of any Act of Parliament, contract, order, regulation, decree, award, or other document made, passed, entered into, or executed, or of any action or proceeding raised before the date of transfer, but so far only as may be necessary for the exercise of the powers or the discharge of the duties transferred, the name of the Board shall be substituted for the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries.—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND: This Amendment to insert a new clause after Clause 28 is consequential.
Amendment moved—
Insert the following new clause:
(". All property belonging to, or held in trust for, the Congested Districts (Scotland) Commissioners shall from and after the commencement of this Act pass to and vest in and be held in trust for the Board, subject to all debts and liabilities affecting the same, and, subject to the provisions of this Act, shall be held by the Board for the purposes for which it is now held or would have been held if this Act had not passed")—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 29:
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 21, after ("Court") insert ("and such of the persons employed by the Congested Districts (Scotland) Commissioners as the Secretary for Scotland, with the consent of the Treasury, may determine, shall from and after the commencement of this Act, be attached to and be officers of the Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 23, line 26, after ("1859") insert ("Provided that any officer of the Congested Districts (Scotland) Commissioners in office at the commencement of this Act who may not be appointed an officer of the Board shall receive such compensation as the Treasury may determine").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 31:
Provisions as to statutory small tenants.
31. With respect to statutory small tenants the following provisions shall have effect:—
(1) A statutory small tenant means and includes a tenant from year to year, or leaseholder, not otherwise disqualified in terms of this Act, in regard to whom section two of this Act provides that he shall not be held an existing yearly tenant or a qualified leaseholder, and the successors of such tenant or leaseholder in the holding, being his heirs, legatees (as defined in section sixteen of the Act of 1866), or assignees (if assignation be permitted by the lease):
(2) Except so far as expressly applied by this Act, the Landholders Acts shall not apply to statutory small tenants:
(3) A holding which is or has been held by a statutory small tenant shall not be merged in or amalgamated with any other holding as defined in the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, except with the sanction of the Department:
(4) Except in any case where the landlord satisfies the Land Court that there is reasonable ground of objection to a statutory small tenant (hereinafter in this section referred to as the tenant) and the Land Court find accordingly, the tenant for the time being shall, not withstanding any agreement to the contrary, be entitled on any determination of the tenancy to a, renewal thereof on the terms and conditions hereinafter specified:
(5) Except so far as varied by this section, the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Acts, 1908 and 1910, shall apply in the case of the tenancy of a statutory small tenant in the same manner as if the tenancy were a lease, and for the purposes of those Acts and otherwise the tenancy, as renewed from time to time, shall be deemed to be a lease current for the period of renewal:
(6) Subject to the provisions of the last-mentioned Acts and of this section, the landlord and the tenant may agree upon the terms and conditions of the renewed tenancy:
(7) Failing agreement, the landlord or the tenant may have an equitable rent, or the period for which the tenancy is to be renewed, determined by arbitration in accordance with the provisions of the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, as amended by this section:
(8) In determining the rent the arbiter shall, so far as practicable, act on his own knowledge and experience, taking into consideration all the circumstances of the case, holding, and district, including the rent at which the holding has been let, the proposed conditions of the renewed tenancy, the improvements made by the landlord and tenant respectively, and the then condition and value of such improvements; and shall fix as the rent to be paid by the tenant the rent which, in his opinion, would be an equitable rent for the holding between the landlord and the tenant as a willing lessor and a willing lessee: Provided that he shall allow no rent in respect of any improvements made by or at the expense of the tenant or any predecessor in title for which he or his predecessor, as the case may be, has not received payment or fair consideration from the landlord or his predecessor:
(9) Subject as aforesaid, the terms and conditions of the renewed tenancy shall (except so far as agreed to be varied) be those of the determining tenancy, in the same way and to the same effect, as nearly as may be as if the tenancy had been continued for the full period of renewal under tacit relocation, and the tenant shall be entitled if he so desires, to a renewal on those terms and conditions:
(10) The Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Acts, 1908 and 1910, as applied by this section, shall be varied as follows (that is to say):—
In the Second Schedule to the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act,
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1908, the Land Court shall be substituted for the Board, and where in terms of that Schedule a person is nominated as arbiter by the Land Court his remuneration shall be paid by the Land Court:
(11) In the event of the landlord on the renewal of the tenancy failing to pro vide such buildings as will enable the tenant to cultivate the holding according to the terms of the lease or agreement or at any time to maintain the buildings and permanent improvements required for the cultivation and reasonable equipment of the holding, in so far as the tenant is not required at common law or by express agreement in writing to do so, it shall be lawful for the tenant to apply to the Land Court to so find and declare, and if the Land Court after hearing parties (if they desire to be heard) shall so find and declare, the tenant shall as from the date specified in the finding become a landholder, and the definition of landholder in this Act shall include such tenant and his successors in the holding, being his heirs or legatees:
(12) It shall be lawful for the Department to provide model forms of agreements for optional use by landlords and tenants under this section, provided that nothing herein contained shall make the use of any such form compulsory:
(13) In the event of any dispute arising as to whether a person is a statutory small tenant within the meaning of this Act, it shall be competent for the Land Court to determine such question summarily:
(14) Section two (as amended by this Act), subsection four of section six, section twenty, and section twenty-seven of the Act of 1886. section two of the Act of 1887 down to the word "summarily" and subsection nineteen of section seven, subsection four of section eight, section twelve, section twenty-five, and sub section one of section twenty-six of this Act, shall, with the substitution of "statutory small tenant" for "land holder." and "equitable rent" for "fair rent," and with any other necessary modifications, apply for the purposes of this section as they apply for the purposes of the Landholders Acts.
LORD CLINTON LORD CLINTON moved to amend subsection (1) by omitting "as denned" and inserting "if within the relationship specified." The noble Lord said: The Amendment I am proposing here is merely a verbal one, and seems to provide a better description. I do not know whether the noble Lord will accept it.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 4, leave out ("as defined") and insert ("if within the relationship specified").—(Lord Clinton.)
LORD PENTLAND: I think I may accept that, subject, of course, to any criticisms which may be made upon it in another place.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved an Amendment in the same subsection to substitute"1886" for "1866."
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 4, leave out ("1866") and insert ("1886").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 25, line 13, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 26, line 39, after ("time") insert ("failing").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved in, subsection (11), after "heard"["(if they desire to be heard)"], to insert the words in his Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 6, after ("heard") insert ("and after giving the landlord (if they think proper) an opportunity of remedying his failure as aforesaid").—(Lord Pentland.)
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: I have an Amendment on the next page—
Page 27, line 6, after ("declare") insert ("the Land Court shall give notice of their finding to the landlord and in the event of the landlord intimating to the Land Court at any time his intention not to remedy such failure or of his continuing in such failure for six months after the date of the notice").
This Amendment has very much the same object as the noble Lord's Amendment, but, if he will allow me to say so, I think it meets the case better than his Amendment does. The noble Lord has endeavoured to remove a grievous injustice, by which for insufficient cause a tenant may be removed from the position of a statutory small tenant to that of a landholder. As the clause stood it was, if I may say so, putting almost a premium on blackmail, because a tenant stood in the
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position of, "Heads I win; tails you lose." He had only to propose to the landlord any permanent improvement which he deemed necessary, and if the landlord refused the tenant could say, "Very well, I will take you to the Court. If I do not succeed, affairs will remain as they are; but if I do succeed I shall be transferred from a statutory small tenant to a landholder." This is a grievous injustice, and I am glad to see that the noble Lord has recognised it and attempted to remedy it, but he leaves the matter to the discretion | of the Court. He says the Court may, if they think proper, give the landlord an opportunity of remedying his failure as aforesaid. Take this case. A statutory tenant is in possession of a farm in which all the improvements have been made by the landlord, and he thinks a certain improvement is necessary. The landlord disagrees and the tenant refers to the Land Court, who may say it is necessary and may declare that the tenant shall become a landholder. Why they should be able to penalise the landlord, if they think fit, by transferring the tenant to the category of a landholder where he would have the various advantages which are only supposed to be granted to a tenant who has made all the improvements himself, I cannot make out. I should be quite prepared to accept the Amendment of the noble Lord and to withdraw mine when the proper time comes if he could see his way to omit the words "if they think proper." I confess I have not the same confidence in the Court as the noble Lord possesses, and if those words still remain in I hope the House will think that the noble Lord's Amendment ought to be rejected and mine inserted instead.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: It really is a substantial suggestion which the noble Lord has just put forward, because if the Court finds that a particular alteration is necessary and the landlord fails to carry it out, the tenant thereupon becomes a new landholder. Surely the option given by the words "if they think proper" is not one which ought to be given to the Court. Take the case of an insanitary dwelling. The sanitary authority says, "You must put your dwelling right; you must remedy these defects within a certain time." That is all that is proposed here. But as the Bill stands it would run thus," Your dwelling is insanitary, and therefore it is to be taken away from you unless

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you do so and so." I think that the proposal of the noble Lord is quite right that the words" if they think proper" should be omitted. Such a discretion ought not to be left to the Court.
LORD PENTLAND: I think we are looking at this from a little different point of view. The Land Court has no interest in making a statutory small tenant into a landholder at all. The position is really this, according to the clause either the statutory small tenant or the landlord may go to the Court—
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I am not objecting to that.
LORD PENTLAND: They may go to the Court and say, "Here are some improvements which should be made," and as the clause was originally drawn the Court had to hear the parties. What the noble Lord wants is that there should be a full opportunity for the landlord to remedy any omissions on his part. As I am advised, as the clause was originally drawn that discretion lies with the Court. Any Court can adjourn its proceedings for any length of time; it has full power to do so, and it was amply in their discretion to make such an adjournment in order to bring the parties together. Lord Oranmore on the last occasion proposed an Amendment which insisted on an obligatory six months elapsing. I took objection to that, and pointed out that it might not be to the interest of the landlord himself that that six months should elapse. The landlord might be glad to get rid of the responsibility with regard to the holding, and I would submit to your Lordships that the Amendment I have put down meets every possible contingency. It might be a great hardship to a landlord to remain saddled with a holding and the responsibility for improvements which he does not wish to carry out. I think at the root of the noble Lord's Amendment is the idea that it matters to the Land Court in which category the tenant lies. It does not matter in the least to them. We have considered this with a desire to do justice to both sides, and I think the words I have suggested carry out that object.
LORD CLINTON: The noble Lord tells us that under the Bill as originally drawn the Court would have had discretion to give the landlord power to remedy any omission
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if he wished to do so. I think they ought in any case to give the landlord such an opportunity.
LORD PENTLAND: My objection was that the noble Lord's Amendment obliged the landlord to wait six months before anything could be done.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: I offered to change that if the noble Lord wished.
LORD CLINTON: While the noble Lord is quite right in objecting to the six months, I would point out that the discretion still remains with the Land Court as to whether j they shall give the landlord time or not as long as you keep in the words "if they think proper." I thoroughly agree with the proposal of the noble Lord, and if he would cut out the words" if they think proper" I personally would have no further objection.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Is it not possible to find some words which I will meet the point taken by my noble friends, because there really is a point which has to be met? The noble Lord in charge of the Bill said just now that the Land Court had no interest in converting a statutory small tenant into a landholder. That may be quite true, but surely under the Bill the Land Court will be compelled to convert him into a landholder if the Court finds that there have been laches on the part of the landlord and that he has failed to make those improvements in the equipment of the holding which the Court deems to be necessary. My noble friend's point is a very simple one. The Court finds, for example, that the erection of an out-building is necessary. Let the landlord be given an opportunity of putting up that building, and there is an end of everything. Surely that is a perfectly reasonable proposal.
LORD PENTLAND: I think the noble Marquess leaves out of consideration that this is the last step, possibly, in the whole series of negotiations. The tenant or the landlord will not go to the Land Court until they have exhausted all other remedies. They are sitting under an agreement which they themselves have come to. The tenant is selected by the landlord and continued by the landlord, and he is sitting under the agreement that has been made. It is only,

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I think, as the last resource that they will come before the Land Court, and, as Lord Clinton pointed out, it is in the discretion of the Land Court after they have heard the parties to take any action they like. They may dismiss it or adjourn it. They are not obliged to "so find and declare." The words are "if they shall so find and declare." It is in the discretion of the Court whether they shall so find and declare, and in that case the tenant and the landlord would be free to go on under the existing circumstances, or under the new circumstances which may have been brought about by an application to the Court.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: Take a case where the landlord and the tenant fail to agree as to the addition of this particular out-building. The parties then go to the Court, and the Court finds that the out-building ought to be erected. All we say is, lot the landlord have an opportunity of complying with the requirements of the Court and of putting up the building and continuing the tenant as a statutory small holder, instead of having him converted over his head into a landholder.
LORD PENTLAND: I object to the clause obliging the Land Court to force upon the landlord an opportunity which he does not desire.
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: Supposing you say, then," after giving the landlord, if he requests it, a reasonable opportunity."
LORD PENTLAND: I will consider the words. I do not think there is any difference in principle between the two sides of the House, and I will try and find suitable words.
LORD SALTOUN: I cannot understand ' the stress which the noble Lord puts on these words.
LORD PENTLAND: The real point is forcing upon the landlord a period of delay which he does not desire.
LORD SALTOUN: The words are, "if they think proper."
LORD PENTLAND: I do not like to attempt drafting on the spur of the moment, but it may save trouble if we put it in this way. I will substitute for the words "if
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they think proper" in my Amendment the words "if he so desires." We will put it in in that form, but we may have to change it afterwards. The Amendment would then read. "and after giving the landlord (if he so desires) an opportunity of remedying his failure as aforesaid."
On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: I do not move my Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 11, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 20, leave out ("Section two, as amended by this Act").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 27, line 31, after ("Acts") insert:
("(15) Without prejudice to any agreement between the parties, the Land Court may, on the application of the landlord, and upon being satisfied that he desires to resume the holding or part thereof for building, planting, feuing, or some other reasonable purpose having relation to the good of the holding or the estate (including any purpose specified in section nineteen of this Act), authorise the resumption thereof by the landlord, subject to the payment of the like compensation to the tenant in respect of improvements on or in connection with the land resumed, to which a tenant would be entitled under the Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Act, 1908, on the determination of his tenancy, and in addition, where part only of the holding is resumed, to such reduction of rent as may be agreed between the parties, or, in case of dispute, determined by the Land Court").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 32:
Amendments moved—
Page 27, line 32, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board")
Page 27, line 36, leave out ("President") and insert ("Secretary for Scotland").
Page 28, line 6, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").—(lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Clause 34:
Amendment moved—
Page 28, line 21, leave out from ("in") to "and") in line 22, and insert ("the section of this Act providing for a register of small holdings ").—(lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 38:
Amendments moved—
Page 28, line 34, after the second ("the") insert ("Second")
Page 28, line 36, leave out from ("schedule") to the end of line 37.
Page 28, line 39, leave out ("Department") and insert ("Board").
Page 39, line 5, leave out ("Department") twice occurring and insert ("Board").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendments agreed to.
Schedules:
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved the insertion of a new schedule.
Amendment moved—
Insert the following new schedule to be the First Schedule to the Bill:
("The Acts specified in the First Schedule to the Board of Agriculture Act, 1889, and any enactment amending or extending the same.
"The Sale of Food and Drugs Acts, 1875 to 1907.
"The Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle). Acts, 1887 and 1891.
"The Merchandize Marks (Prosecutions) Act, 1894.
"The Light Railways Act, 1896.
"The Fertilizers and Feedings Stuffs Act, 1906.
"The Agricultural Holdings (Scotland) Acts, 1908 and 1910.
"The Housing and Town Planning Act, 1909.
"The Development and Road Improvement Funds Acts, 1909 and 1910.")—(Lord Pentland.)
LORB BURGHCLERE: I move to amend the proposed new Schedule by inserting the words" Part II of" after the word "in" in the first line, and inserting after"1875 to 1907"the words "The Destructive Insects and Pests Acts, 1877 and 1907." Part I of the First Schedule of the Board of Agriculture Act, 1889, includes the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Acts which were previously administered by the Agricultural Committee of the Privy Council. These Acts were subsequently repealed and consolidated in the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894, but there was also included in Part I of the Schedule the Destructive Insects and Pests
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Act, 1877; and I think it would make it I clearer and better serve my noble friend's purpose if, instead of mentioning the First Schedule only, the Amendment should read "in Part II of the First Schedule," and at the same time insert the Destructive Insects and Pests Acts after"1907."I believe this is what my noble friend wishes to do, and it certainly makes the Bill clearer to understand and avoids any possible mistakes that might hereafter occur.
Amendment moved to the Amendment—
To amend the new Schedule by inserting in the first line after ("in") the words ("Part II of"), and inserting in the Schedule after ("1907") the words ("The Destructive Insect and Pest Acts, 1877 and 1907").—(Lord Burghclere.)
LORD PENTLAND: I accept that.
On Question, Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
Amendment moved—
Page 31, in column 3, insert at the beginning ("section one, section two").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
The Amendments on the Paper having been disposed of,
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHsaid: I would ask the indulgence of the House for a moment. Unfortunately I was not here earlier in the evening, but I understand that a suggestion was made that the next stage of this Bill should be taken at midday to-morrow. This is very short notice, and I do not know whether the noble Lord is able to give us any assurance as to what Amendments are to be proposed. It is a very unusual thing to ask the House to sit twice on one day, and it is not very easy suddenly the night before to free oneself from engagements. I do not suppose I am saying anything that ought not to be mentioned, but I understand that an Amendment is likely to be suggested which might have an important bearing upon some consequential Amendments in which I am very much interested to the old Clause 32, now Clause 31, and I think it would greatly facilitate matters if we had some information from the Secretary for Scotland as to the course he is likely to pursue.
LORD PENTLAND: It is a little difficult to make any positive statement us to the proposals which are under discussion, but noble Lords opposite know what those proposals are, and probably the most convenient course would be that as soon as we are freed from business we should arrange how these are to be put in form, so that noble Lords in all parts of the House may be fully acquainted with them before we meet to-morrow. I will do my best to that end, and I have little doubt, considering the stage at which this discussion has arrived, that it would be possible for all noble Lords interested in this matter to be in possession of full information of the proposals before we meet to-morrow.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: This is a Scottish Bill, and you are asking the House to assemble at noon. It is perfectly obvious to me that no real representation of the House will come down at noon, and supposing we do not agree and have to go to a Division, the very small number present will hardly show the fair general sense of the House. The noble Lord will understand that I am anxious that no difficulty should be raised which is not absolutely necessary, but I point out that we may be placed in very great difficulty if we do not agree, because there may be a Division and then the thing would have to stand over until another day. If the noble Lord can take this Bill in the evening to-morrow, that difficulty would, in all probability, be avoided.
LORD PENTLAND: I am afraid I cannot undertake, without consultation, to make any change in the hour at which it is proposed to meet, but if it is evidently for the convenience of noble Lords opposite that we should meet later than 12 o'clock, I will endeavour to ascertain whether the arrangements for business generally will permit of such a change. I should be quite willing to fall in with it myself, but if the suggestion is not practicable I really hope that there may be nothing for us to disagree strongly about to-morrow, and possibly even if that were to take place we might be able to adjourn the House for an hour or two in order to meet the convenience of noble Lords. The Government would not take any objection to such a course being adopted.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I was going to make the same suggestion, that we might meet at noon to-morrow and endeavour to go on, and that if any difficulty arose the discussion should be adjourned and proceed later in the day.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: That arrangement, I assume, ought not to preclude conferences in the meantime, because probably a great deal more will be done by a few persons meeting together in conference than by an official sitting of the House. I have known that to be done on previous occasions, but I never remember the House meeting twice on one day to discuss public business.
Bill to be read 3aTo-morrow, and to be printed as amended. (No. 246.)

TOWN-COUNCILS (SCOTLAND) AMEND MENT BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD PENTLAND: My Lords, I do not propose to proceed with this Bill this session. It is a noncontentious measure, but I think it would be convenient to postpone its consideration until next session.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading discharged.

BUBGH POLICE (SCOTLAND) AMENDMENT BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD PENTLAND: This is a Bill which I do not anticipate will arouse any controversy in this House. According to its title, its simple purpose is to amend the Burgh Police (Scotland) Acts in order to provide for the further regulation of places for public refreshment in Scotland. By these are meant temperance refreshment houses. The Burgh Police Act of 1892 prohibits such refreshment houses from opening between 12 midnight and 5 a.m., but at all other hours of the day or night they may remain open. This power was not found to be sufficient for their regulation, especially for the purpose of regulating what are known as ice-cream shops and aerated water shops, and in 1903 an amending Act was passed to regulate

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these shops and to place them under the control of the magistrates. This Act of 1903 has been found to be practically inoperative for the reason that the Courts have held that an ice-cream shop or an aerated water shop is a shop which sells only ice-cream or only aerated waters or mainly such things, and a great many of these shops, probably all of them, sell other things as well. Thus the operation of the Act has been nullified, for it has in practice been confined to a class of shop which is really not to be found anywhere. It is, therefore, the case that this method of dealing with this evil has broken down, and at the instance of a very strong and active public opinion in Scotland this Bill is brought forward to remedy the defect. It brings within its scope, as noble Lords will see if they look at the Bill, all refreshment places, not only ice-cream shops and aerated water shops but also all temperance refreshment houses.
The dilemma which we have to meet is either to allow the particular shops of which complaint is made to remain, altogether unregulated, or else to attempt to regulate all temperance refreshment houses. It may be argued that this is hard upon houses of which no complaint is made, but, on the other hand, I think it may fairly be said that with the discretion which is allowed to the magistrates by the provisions of this Bill there is really no great hardship in adopting the rule that all temperance refreshment places should close at 10 o'clock at night. The procedure of the Bill is to set up a register which will contain the names of all refreshment traders who carry on business after 8 o'clock at night and who open for the convenience of working men and other people before 5 o'clock in the morning. The register will also contain the names of all refreshment traders who carry on business on Sundays. All the people: placed on this register will come under: the superintendence of the local authority, and the Bill gives to the local authority power to inspect at all hours, and also a very important power in this particular matter—a power to regulate the internal I construction and, as I have proposed by an Amendment, the lighting of these shop premises. The local authority has the further power of removing a house from the register for an offence. Under that provision—that is, for an offence—a single shop can be shut up.
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On the other hand, to provide for the convenience of the public there, are special powers under the Bill to grant to any refreshment traders special permission to remain open for special hours, and there is also power given to the local authority to make by-laws providing for the special benefit, not of individual houses, but of houses in selected areas, in order to meet the public convenience. I should imagine those places would be near places of amusement and railway stations. That is really the whole extent of the Bill. It is designed to meet the convenience of the public and I also particularly to provide for the protection of young people who frequent these houses. It has passed through the other House of Parliament, and on all sides there I has been great friendliness to its purpose and j provisions, and I commend it to the favourable consideration of your Lordships' House. I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Pentland.)
LORD SALTOUN: I congratulate the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland on having introduced this Bill. I think it is very much wanted. I do not propose to criticise the Bill in any way, but I should like to call the attention of the noble Lord I to Clause 2. It seems to me that the powers there given are a little too great, and might be very easily abused. I noticed that the noble Lord in speaking of the Bill used the word'' magistrate." Now, Clause 2 says that on the representation of two members—
LORD PENTLAND: Yes, two members of a town council.
LORD SALTOUN: Under the clause two members of a town council of a burgh may give permission to keep open. It seems to me that that provision is a little wide. We know what town councillors are in small burghs in Scotland. Practically, it seems to me, bribery might be used, or different means to get round a gentleman might be easily used in order to get him to agree to allow a particular place to be kept open. I suggest that it would save a lot of trouble if the noble Lord would accept an Amendment making it, instead of two members, two magistrates. Naturally that would include some of the older town councillors who are appointed magistrates,

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and they would be to a certain extent responsible for giving permission. I congratulate the noble Lord on introducing what I think is an excellent Bill.
LORD PENTLAND: I shall be very glad to consider the point urged by my noble friend, but I must look into it before I express an opinion upon it.
On Question, Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

HOUSE LETTING AND RATING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee—(Lord Pentland. )
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly.
[The EARL OP DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]
Clause 1.
Interpretation.
1. In this Act—
The expression "small dwelling-house" means a dwelling-house in a burgh or special district in which this Act is in operation, entered in the valuation roll at a yearly rent or value of—
Ten pounds or under if the population of the burgh or special district is less than twenty thousand;
Fifteen pounds or under if the population of the burgh or special district is twenty thousand and less than fifty thousand; and
Twenty-one pounds or under if the population of the burgh or special district is fifty thousand or upwards;
but shall not include any dwelling-house occupied by the owner thereof, or in which the owner resides, or any dwelling-house used as an inn or hotel, or any dwelling-house let along with land for agricultural, pastoral, or horticultural purposes, or any dwelling-house let in conjunction with a shop, workshop, stable, or byre; nor shall it include any dwelling-house let under any contract or lease current at the date when this Act comes into force in any burgh or special district prior to the expiration of such contract or lease:
The expression "assessing authority" includes a town council, a county council, a parish council, and every other body entitled to impose an assessment:
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The expression "assessment" includes all rates, charges, and assessments imposed, assessed, or levied by an assessing authority, the proceeds of which are applicable to public local purposes and which are leviable in respect of the yearly value of lands and heritages, and includes any sum which, though obtained in the first instance by a precept, certificate, or other instrument requiring payment from some authority or officer, is or can be ultimately raised out of an assessment:
The expression "magistrate" includes judge of police:
The expressions "owner" and "occupier" have the meanings assigned to them respectively in the Burgh Police (Scotland). Act, 1892; provided that section fifty eight of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1903 (which limits the obligations of factors), shall apply for the purposes of this Act as if it were herein re-enacted with the substitution of this Act for the Burgh i Police Acts specified in the said section:
The expression "burgh" means a royal, parliamentary, or police burgh; and the I expression "population" within the police boundaries of a burgh means the population of the burgh according to the census last issued, and within a special district the population thereof as ascertained for the purposes of this Act in manner approved by the Secretary for Scotland:
The expression "special district" means a special district formed in a county under the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1897, or the Local Government (Scotland) Acts, 1889 to 1908, for the purposes of water supply, drainage, lighting, or scavenging.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved to leave out the words "date when"["nor shall it include any dwelling-house let under any contract or lease current at the date when"] and to insert "passing of."
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 25, leave out ("date when") and insert ("passing of").—(Lord Pentland. )
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved to omit the words "comes into force in any burgh or special district," which appear immediately after the Amendment just made.
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 1, leave out from ("Act") to the end of the line—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved to amend the following paragraph—
The expression "burgh" means a royal, parliamentary, or police burgh; and the expression "population" [within the police boundaries of a burgh means the population of the burgh according

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to the census last issued, and within] a special I district the population thereof as ascertained for the purposes of this Act in manner approved by the Secretary for Scotland:
by omitting the words which, appear between brackets and inserting in their place the words in his Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 25, leave out from ("population ") to ("a") in line 28 and insert ("means in relation to an existing burgh the population within the police boundaries thereof according to the census of nineteen hundred and eleven, and in relation to a burgh constituted after the passing of this Act or to ").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 6 agreed to.
Clause 7
Provisions as to rating of small dwelling-houses.
7. Subject as hereinafter provided the provision of all Acts applicable within the respective areas in which this Act may be in operation respecting the liability for, and the imposition and recovery by an assessing authority of, any assessment, shall subsist in full force and effect: Provided that within every such area—

(1) The occupier of a small dwelling-house shall in no case be liable to pay occupiers' assessment there for in respect of any period prior to the commencement or subsequent to the termination of his occupancy, but any liability to pay occupiers' assessment, which would by law be imposed on a person occupying the small dwelling-house throughout the year from Whitsunday to Whitsunday, shall be imposed on any such occupier or successive occupiers during the year, whether their names appear in the valuation roll or not, to such extent or in such shares as shall be proportionate to the period or periods of their respective occupancies of the small dwelling-house:

(2) Subject as hereinafter provided the owner of a small dwelling-house shall be responsible for all assessments liability to pay which is imposed on the occupier thereof, and all responsibility of the occupier for the same shall cease and determine, and the same shall not be recovered or recoverable by the assessing authority from the occupier, but shall be recovered by the assessing authority from such owner in the same manner as provided for under existing Acts with respect to the recovery of assessments from owners, and the assessing authority shall be entitled to recover occupiers' assessments from the owner for the year from Whitsunday to Whitsunday, notwithstanding that the house
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may not be occupied throughout the year, and for that purpose to issue to the owner through their collector or other officer appointed by them any notice, schedule, demand note, or intimation which, under existing Acts, may be issued in respect of the year's assessments to the occupier:

(3) Notwithstanding any payment by the owner of occupiers' assessments in respect of the occupancy of a small dwelling house, if, in respect of any period, rent or other consideration shall not be received by the owner for any small dwelling-house in respect of which such payment has been made, the owner shall, upon lodging on or before dates to be fixed by the respective assessing authorities (one of which dates shall be fixed not earlier than the first or later than the twentieth day of May in each year), with the clerk to any such authority, or with such other officer as such authority may appoint for the purpose, a claim for repayment, which shall set forth the period or periods during which the small dwelling-house was not let, or in respect of which, though the house was let, no payment of rent or other consideration was received by him and a declaration to the effect that no rent or other consideration has been paid or given for such period or periods, be entitled to repayment from such authority of the proportionate amount of such assessment for the said period or periods without prejudice to the right of the authority to make adjustments with the owner in respect of any such rent or other consideration subsequently re covered by him: Provided that, for the purpose of any qualification or franchise which depends on payment of occupiers' assessments, an occupier shall be held to be in arrear and his assessments to remain unpaid to the extent of any claim there for (if relating to any period o during the occupancy of the said occupier) under this subsection in respect of which the owner has received repayment or which is pending at the date when notice of occupiers' assessments in arrear requires to be given under the statutes relating to such qualification or franchise:

(4) The owner of a small dwelling-house, on receipt of a requisition from an assessing authority or such officer as they may appoint, shall within ten days thereafter furnish such authority with a return containing particulars of any period or periods in any years from Whitsunday to Whitsunday during which such small dwelling-house has been let, and of the occupier or successive occupiers thereof with their respective periods of occupancy and the amount of rent payable and paid by them respectively:

(5) Any owner knowingly making or causing to be made any false statement in or in connexion with any claim, declaration, or return under this section, or failing to make any such return, shall be liable, on summary conviction, to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds:

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(6) Every assessing authority shall in respect of the occupancy of small dwelling-houses allow to owners from all occupiers' assessments levied on am recovered from them in place of the occupiers (less any repayment in pursuance of a claim under this section) a deduction to cover cost of collection, on the following scale (that is to say):—
In the city of Glasgow, two pounds ten shillings per centum; and elsewhere such deduction, not exceeding two pounds ten shillings per centum, as may be fixed by the sheriff on the application of the assessing authority, or any ten or more persons having an interest, after such intimation by advertisement or otherwise as he thinks fit, and after such inquiry, if any, as he may deem necessary:
Provided that, except in the city of Glasgow, after such scale of deduction has been in operation for a period of not less than three years, it shall be competent for the assessing authority, or for any ten or more persons having an interest, to present a petition to the sheriff for reconsideration of such scale and the sheriff, after such intimation by advertisement or otherwise as he thinks fit, and after such inquiry, if any, as he may deem necessary, shall fix and decide a scale of deduction accordingly, but after the expiry of a period of not less than five years from the date of such decision, and thereafter at intervals of not less than five years from the date of the final interlocutor by the sheriff on the reconsideration of such scale, the scale may, subject to the like procedure, be re-submitted to the sheriff for reconsideration: Provided further that the sheriff shall not fix a scale of deduction exceeding two pounds ten shillings per centum, and it shall not be competent to appeal from any decision of the sheriff under this section.

(7) Section thirty-one of the Lands Valuation (Scotland) Act, 1854, subsection six of section nine of the Representation of the People Act, 1884, and sections three hundred and forty-four, three hundred and forty-five, and three hundred and forty-six of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892, and the provisions of local Acts specified in Part I of the schedule to this Act, shall not apply to a small dwelling-house, and the provisions of local Acts specified in Part II of that schedule in their application to a small dwelling-house shall be subject to the modifications therein prescribed, and any corresponding provisions of other local Acts shall be read and construed subject to the like alterations so far as necessary in order to give full effect to the purposes of this Act.

LORD PENTLAND LORD PENTLAND moved to omit from subsection (2) the words "and all responsibility of the occupier for the same shall cease and determine." The noble Lord said: This is really a drafting Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 40, leave out ("and all responsibility of the occupier for the same shall cease and determine").—(Lord Pentland.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EAEL OF DUNMORE THE EAEL OF DUNMORE moved the insertion of a new subsection to provide that "The owner of a small dwelling-house shall at the commencement of the occupancy of each occupier and in each year beginning on the fifteenth day of May deliver to such occupier a statement specifying the respective amounts of rent and of assessments payable by him in respect of the period of his occupancy, and the owner in the receipts for such payments by the occupier shall specify the respective amounts paid for rent and for assessments." The noble Earl said: I think the object of my Amendment is pretty clear. In putting it forward I am admitting the difficulty which arises in collecting the rates in the case of short lets unless they are collected through the landlord. But in admitting this, I am not in any way admitting the necessity of continuing, or developing or extending, as this Bill does, the evils which go together with compounding. The evils of compounding have been so often discussed in your Lordships' House that it is unnecessary for me to go into them. They are admitted, I think, on both sides of this House. The difficulty one is faced with in trying to abolish compounding is the loss to the rates from defaulters unless you collect the rates through the landlord. I hope. I may say that my Amendment contains all the virtues, if there are any, and none of the vices of compounding. It leaves the landlord in the position of collecting the rates lie is responsible for collecting them, but at the same time there is brought home to the ratepayer the fact that he is a ratepayer, and the amount which he is paying in rates is made quite clear. In this way the ratepayer would have brought home to him his personal responsibility as a ratepayer for the economical administration of his district. I am sure the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland is as anxious as we are on this side of the House to obtain sound and economical administration, but you will never get that as long as ratepayers are unaware they pay rates. It is a wrong system, and in my opinion it is responsible for a great deal of that rapid increase of local expenditure which a few years ago

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was about half of, and is now, I think, about equal to or greater than, our Imperial expenditure. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 14, after ("occupier") insert the following new subsection:
("(2) The owner of a small dwelling-house shall at the commencement of the occupancy of each occupier and in each year beginning on the fifteenth day of May deliver to such occupier a statement specifying the respective amounts of rent and of assessments payable by him in respect of the period of his occupancy, and the owner in the receipts for such payments by the occupier shall specify the respective amounts paid for rent and for assessments").—(The Earl of Dunmore.)
LORD PENTLAND: I will not differ from the noble Earl on the principle of the desirability of impressing upon every ratepayer the amount which he pays in rates. But while I freely admit the strength of his contention, I am sorry it is not possible to accept the Amendment which he proposes. This Bill is, as I am sure he is aware, promoted on the footing that the occupier pays to the owner rates and rent in one indivisible sum, and if the noble Earl will reflect he will see it is really not possible to specify beforehand the amount of rates payable by the occupier. It must begin on a system of short lets, but the period of occupancy is not defined; and it is not possible, as I say, to specify the amount payable beforehand by the occupier. And further, for some months after the l5th of May, while the rate is being prepared and struck—that is to say, during the whole period from May until November or December, when the rate notices are sent out—it is not possible to say exactly what the oceupier's share of rates is. We got over the difficulty under our former proposals by calculating upon the payments made in previous months. But that Bill was entirely different; and it would be inconsistent with this Bill as it now stands to introduce any such provision as the noble Earl desires.
LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH: I have heard the noble Lord's answer with extreme regret. I cannot conceive anything worse, as an economical proposition, than mixing up rates and rent together. The rates increase, and the amount of money which the unfortunate landlord puts into his pocket decreases, while the gross amount which the tenant pays to
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him increases. That is, in the first place, an injustice to the individual, because he is thought to be a grasping landlord when he is actually losing money as compared with previous years. But an injustice to an individual, especially to a landlord, I probably will not appeal very greatly to some noble Lords on the other side of the House. But what is more unfortunate is that the person who votes, who practically decrees the expenditure, who elects the body which spends the money, is left absolutely in ignorance of the effect of his voting. I frankly admit there is a difficulty in respect of that, because I suppose this Bill will extend over other houses which are let from May to May, whereas it is perfectly well known to all of us who are accustomed to work under the local system in Scotland that the rates are not struck until September, and they are not paid until January, and even sometimes February, the last day for payment without penalty being, I believe, at the end of February. But it is really very unfortunate, because this is a retrograde step in these days when compounding has been much more the custom in England than it has been in Scotland. It has been our privilege in Scotland, except in houses under £4, to have no compounding at all, and it is most lamentable to me to see this system brought in with all its disadvantages. I know from inquiries upon the Local Taxation Commission that there are many of these who, for certain franchise purposes, do compound, and the compounding householder is a time-honoured institution. There has been a benefit also on account of the convenience of collecting the rates from the landlord. But there is a vicious system in connection with this in England by which the landlord gets a discount for collecting the rates. I do not know how much it is, but it is very hard on the other ratepayers. I am glad for the landlord, but I do not know about the local authorities. However, in this case, so far as I know, no discount is allowed to the landlord. I will support the Amendment; but I am not one of those who are in any way responsible for the bringing in of this most atrocious system.
THE EARL OF DUNMORE: With the leave of the House I beg to withdraw my Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN moved to add at the end of subsection (3) the words "and the said occupier shall, as being in arrear to the extent aforesaid, unless he has paid such arrears to the assessing authority in terms of section eight of this Act be included in any list of persons who have failed to pay assessments which under the Acts regulating such qualification or franchise is required to be sent to the assessor as a person who has so failed." The noble Earl said: This Amendment, so far as I am able to judge, does not in any respect alter the law as stated in the Bill, but what it does is to make clear that such a list shall be published, and that the names of persons who are defaulters shall appear in it. It will, therefore, be absolutely certain that the assessor will have such a list. Your Lordships will remember that in regard to words in an earlier part of the clause some doubt was expressed as to whether that list would be necessarily published. I beg to move.
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 6, after ("franchise") insert ("and the said occupier shall, as being in arrear to the extent aforesaid, unless he has paid such arrears to the assessing authority in terms of section eight of this Act, be included in any list of persons who have failed to pay assessments which under the Acts regulating such qualification or franchises is required to be sent to the assessor as a person who has so failed").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
LORD PENTLAND: I accept the Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
THE EARL OF DUNMORE: I move the insertion of the new subsection standing in my name on the paper. Under the Scottish Valuation Act, valuation is based on rents received. We are afraid that under the provisions of this Bill valuation Will be raised owing to rates and rents being received together in one sum as rent. I trust the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland will accept the Amendment.
Amendment moved—
Page 7, line 32, after ("Act") insert the following new subsection:
("(8) An assessor acting under the Lands Valuation (Scotland) Acts shall in estimating the yearly rent or value of a small dwelling-house
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make allowance for the responsibility by this section imposed on owners for the payment of occupiers assessments").—(The Earl of Dunmore.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 8 agreed to.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I propose, after Clause 8, to insert a new clause to provide that nothing in this Act shall deprive any assessing authority of any power to exempt an occupier of a small dwelling-house from payment in whole or in part of any assessment on the ground of his poverty or inability to pay. This is simply a precautionary clause, because some of the assessing authorities—whether they are entitled to do it by law or not, I do not know—as a matter of practice exempt a considerable number of persons from payment of rates on the ground of poverty. Under this Bill, without such a clause as this, I think it probable that they would not be able to continue that practice, but the owner would be required, in the first instance at all events, to squeeze these unfortunate people and attempt to get the rates out of them. Although in all probability he would not succeed, at all events the authority would be deprived of the power which it has, or claims to have, of exemption. Therefore I propose to insert this clause to say that they shall not be deprived of the power.
Amendment moved—
After Clause 8, insert the following new clause:
("9. Nothing in this Act shall deprive any assessing authority of any power to exempt an occupier of a small dwelling-house from payment in whole or in part of any assessment on the ground of his poverty or inability to pay").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
LORD PENTLAND: I have no objection to the clause proposed by the noble Earl.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No.247.)

LUNACY BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day read for the consideration of the Commons Amendment.
THE LORD CHANCELLOB (EARL LOBEBUEN): This Bill provides for the appointment of two new Commissioners, and the House of Commons have put in the word "paid," which was omitted here on the ground of privilege. I move that this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RAG FLOCK BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
UNIVERSITY OF WALES (No. 2) BILL.
Read 37a (according to Order), and passed.

THE TERRITORIAL FORCE.
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH*THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH rose "To ask the Secretary of State for War when it was decided by the Army Council that there should be a peace establishment as well as a war establishment for the Territorial Force; and, if the peace establishment is 250,000 men, why County Associations have been continuously urged to raise in time of peace the full war establishment of 315,000 men which they had been led to believe would be the absolute minimum for a Home Defence Force consistent with safety, thereby considerably adding to the difficulties of an already sufficiently difficult task; further, to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to a speech delivered at Tiverton by the late Financial Secretary to the War Office, in which he stated that—
'We are now provided in every way so that within forty-eight hours of an alarm being given the Territorial Force could stand forth absolutely equipped with everything it might need to (ace any invasion or sudden emergency that might arise ';
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"whether the 'absolute equipment' includes the complete war establishment of men and horses which will presumably be required if the Territorial Force is ' to stand forth absolutely equipped with everything it might need to face an invasion '; whether this view is supported by the G.O.C.'s. in-Chief; whether he can tell us if there is any single unit in the Territorial Force that could be so equipped within a much longer period than forty-eight hours; and whether it would not be well to give instructions to the Under-Secretary of State, the Financial Secretary to the War Office, and the Paymaster-General of the Forces, to refrain from making such absurd statements, which, if any reliance is still placed on the pronouncements of our ever-changing Ministers, can only have the effect of lulling the country into a state of false security."
The noble Earl said: My Lords, I have ventured to give notice of this Question, because it raises the matter of two recent pronouncements of members of His Majesty's Government, pronouncements which seem to me to raise a very serious question, and, considering the present difficulties of those who are responsible for running the Territorial Force, call for explanation. The Secretary of State for War recently referred to the peace establishment of the Territorial Force as consisting of 250,000 men. I want to know when it was decided that there was any peace establishment of the Territorial Force at all. I had always understood that the Home Defence Force was, in itself, a peace established Force, and that it was put there for the purpose of defending the country. In the original scheme the numbers of the Territorial Force were put down at 315,000 men. From debates that have taken place here we know that a great many members of this House look upon that number as totally inadequate; but those of us on whose shoulders has been placed the responsibility of organising the Territorial Force accepted that figure as being the number recommended to the Army Council by the military experts who advised the Government, but we have always understood that 315,000 men is the minimum of safety in the matter of our defence force.
I think it was during last session that the noble Viscount referred in another

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place to the small margin that he had said must exist between the full establishment and the actual numbers in order to provide for the coming in and the going out of members of the Force that annually takes place, and I remember that I went so far as to suggest that the establishment should be increased in order to cover that margin. I ask, When was this settled? Why should we have been given the duty of raising this Force when we have never been informed that the peace establishment of the Territorial Force consists of 250,000 men? Take the case of the county of Staffordshire, where at one time we had practically our full establishment. At present we are not quite up to that standard, though we have 94 or 95 per cent. Surely the noble Viscount will realise as fully as we do the difficulties facing us in the immediate future. The first four years have conic to an end, and we are at our wits ends to know how it will be possible to keep up the establishment with the large number of men who will go out. It seems to me that when they understand that 250,000 is our peace establishment they will say, when we ask them to sign on again, "Why worry? We have now more than the numbers of our peace establishment." That will be one of the difficulties, and I cannot understand why it is necessary at this late hour to inform us that 250,000 men is the peace establishment, when we have been engaged all the time in endeavouring, in a time of peace, to raise the full establishment of 315,000 men.
The second part of my Question refers to a speech recently delivered at Tiverton by the late Financial Secretary to the War Office. It was of such an amazing character that I hope the noble Viscount will be able to give us some satisfactory explanation of its meaning. These are the words which Mr. Acland used—
"We are now provided in every way so that within 48 hours of an alarm being given the Territorial Force could stand forth absolutely equipped with everything it might need to face any invasion or sudden emergency that might arise."
I should like to give your Lordships, if you will allow me, my experience with regard to this question of mobilisation. As far back as January 31, 1910, I addressed a series of some thirty questions to the Secretary to the War Office dealing with
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details of mobilisation. I sent a covering letter showing the difficulty that we should have in the case of sudden mobilisation, and pressed the importance of the point that secretaries to County Associations should have clearly defined what in that event they would have to provide and what, would be supplied by the military authorities. I wrote again on June 2 of that year, and seven days later received an acknowledgement to the effect that the matter had not been forgotten and that it was hoped that a reply might shortly be sent. In acknowledging that letter I asked what interpretation might be put on the word "shortly." This letter I followed up with one on December 28, 1910, and on December 31 I was informed that definite replies would be sent to the questions as soon as certain details connected with the Territorial Force mobilisation had been decided. It does not require a Sherlock Holmes to deduce from these facts that in the opinion of the War Office the word "shortly" means "any period of time over eighteen months." To the original questions I have so far had no reply.
I want to emphasise the fact that while we are told that we can be absolutely equipped in forty-eight hours it has taken more than two years for the Secretary to the War Office to tell us what we arc to provide in the event of mobilisation. Colonel Seely, in an answer to a Question on this subject in another place said, "It is purely a question of finance." How can this possibly be confined to a question of finance? If it is a question of finance on which alone we depend in case of invasion, the only interpretation to be put on it is that if the enemy comes the Secretary for War hopes he will have sufficient funds to bribe the invader to go away. Then I would like to know what absolute equipment" means—whether men and horses. We know something about horses. I do not wish to emphasise the difficulty in that respect, but there is a Biblical comparison which I think might fairly be made. I think it was Rab-shakeh who said to Hezekiah, "I will give you a horse if you will find a rider to put upon it "; but our modern Rab-shakeh says, "You give me a horse and I will put three riders upon it." While no doubt that particular horse would be fully equipped with regard to riders, there is nothing to show that the rest of

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the establishment would be equally complete. Therefore it would be interesting to know how far this "absolute equipment" is carried out by actual facts. I also ask whether this view expressed by the Financial Secretary is supported by the G.O.C.'s-in-Chief. I think the answer in another place was that those reports were confidential. But surely we, who are engaged in raising this Force and are supposed to hand it over in a state of efficiency, at least have a right to know whether a statement like this, made by a representative of the Government, is really accurate.
There is one minor point in connection with mobilisation to which I would like to refer. A great deal no doubt depends on the efficiency of the officers, and we very often hear criticisms of the officers of the Territorial Force. The examination now imposed upon all officers who are going up for promotion is, I believe, much the same as that which a subaltern in the Regular Army is asked to pass. The difference, of course, is this—with the Regular subaltern it is his job, with the Territorial officer it is not. No doubt it is necessary that there should be some form, and very likely mime very severe form, of examination. The complaint I have to make is that these books on which they are examined are not obtainable. The answer given over and over again to those who go in for these examinations and desire these works is that the books are either obsolete or out of print, at any rate they are not obtainable. Take as an illustration the "Field Service Pocket Book," and the "King's Regulations." I believe that for the first time candidates for these examinations have been allowed to take the "Field Service Pocket Book." I know the case of a man who wrote for a copy. The examination began on December 4 and on December 1 he received an intimation that the book was not obtainable. The same thing happened with regard to the "King's Regulations." I believe that the answer to this objection of mine is that these two books are merely provisional, and are under revision; but when you remember the class of men that you examine, it seems very hard on them that they should be examined in books that may be altered to-morrow.
I will give your Lordships one of several instances. The man I refer to is a builder
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in rather a big way of business. He is employed all day, and therefore has to work at the subjects for the examination in the evenings. It is very hard if he cannot actually obtain the books in which he is going to be examined. I know the great discouragement thus given to Territorial officers, and when we find, as I believe was the case the last time, that some 50 per cent. of the candidates fail, no doubt there is a very good explanation for it. I would like to press very strongly that those who are to be examined should have an opportunity of obtaining the books in which they are to be examined. On my general Questions, I do hope the noble Viscount will be able to give us some consolation and undertake that our great difficulties will not be added to by statements such as those to which I have referred.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): On the last point to which the noble Earl has referred with regard to the examinations and the books, if the facts be what he says I heartily agree with him. It is very wrong if people are examined on books which are obsolete. Unfortunately, I have had no notice from the noble Earl of this matter and have had no means of inquiring, but I shall make inquiry—
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: I did not give any notice to the noble Viscount of this point, because the examination is over. Perhaps he will have time before the next examination to go into the matter.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Yes; but I think the noble Earl might have given me notice before raising it in this House, because it goes out, and I have no means of revising it; but I shall make stringent inquiries to-morrow. If I bad had notice I should have been glad to make some inquiries and to give this House sonic assurance one way or the other.
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: I am sorry I did not give notice, but there have been Questions asked about it in another place. Had I known that the noble Viscount required an intimation beforehand I should certainly have given it to him.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I certainly required an intimation. I now come to the other point. The noble Earl asks when it was decided by the Army Council that there should be a peace establishment of 250,000 for the Territorial Force as distinguished from a war establishment. The answer is that it has never been so decided. I have never either said or suggested anything of the kind, and the references as to myself having spoken of these things arc not supported by any words which the noble Earl quoted, nor could he find words used by me to that effect. That I have said is that the Territorial Force is unfortunately below its full establishment at this time. I have said there is no magic in 315,000 men, but it is the duty of everybody interested in the Territorial Force, and particularly of those who are responsible for it, to work in every way they can to get it up to the full establishment. But we always knew that there would be periods, and it might be prolonged periods, when we should not be up to the establishment. But it is no use talking of that, and saying that the end of the world has come. Then the noble Earl has quoted me as having said in February, 1907, in introducing the Territorial scheme in the House of Commons, that it might well be that there would be periods during which the numbers would not be very much more than a quarter of a million. Even so, I added, we were not to lose heart, but were simply to take that as the state of things we had to deal with, and work as hard as we could to get the full establishment. But I have never for a moment suggested at any time that there is a peace establishment of a quarter of a million as distinguished from a war establishment, or talked such nonsense as somebody seems to have put into my mouth and which the noble Earl has got hold of.
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: I will send the noble Viscount the quotation which I took front the report of his speech which appeared in The Times a little while ago.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: The Times is very unlike itself if it has made me say that there is a peace, as distinguished from a war establishment, and that the number was a quarter of a million, and that the Army Council had so decided. I am sorry if the noble Earl has been misled into thinking that I have said anything of the
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sort, and no reporter was justified in representing anything of the kind as my words. It is of the essence of the Territorial Force that it should have only one establishment and we have always maintained that every one responsible should endeavour to get the numbers up to that amount. The only thing that has been said, and said all along, is that you cannot expect to be always up to a war establishment, and that, even if you went down to 250,000, that is no reason for losing heart or despairing of your Force. You have got something that is very good to work on even with these numbers, and it should only be a reason for your working no less strenuously in order to get your full numbers. That is all I have to say about this myth of the two establish merits.
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: I ant very pleased it has been cleared away.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I am glad to have been of assistance to the noble Earl in this matter. With regard to the next question, there again the noble Earl has quoted the late Financial Secretary as having said that the Territorial Force was absolutely equipped with everything it might need to face any invasion or sudden emergency that might arise. I have looked at several reports of the speech and I do not wonder that the noble Earl has been misled by some of them, because they are mostly about six lines long. But I did see some eighteen to twenty lines long, and it is clear that my hon. friend was referring to what he was speaking about—namely, that, he had provided money sufficient to enable mobilisation to be complete in forty-eight hours. My hon. friend maintains that he did, before he left office, provide that money, and. I have reason to think he is accurate in that statement. He did not say that everything was complete and ready. I quite agree with the noble Earl that there are many things that will have to be done before you have got perfect machinery for mobilisation, but I have made careful inquiries from those who know the Territorial Force, and they tell me that the only-difficulties that remain are wagons and horses.
As regards horses, a very large part of the country is now far advanced with the operations of a new scheme for providing horses, and it is only a matter of a very

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short time before the bulk of the horses will be provided for the Territorial Force. They are already provided for the six divisions of the Regular Army and the Cavalry Division. The work ought to be completed within a very few months, and in many places the horses have been sufficiently marked out to mobilise the Territorial Force. As for three men going on one horse, of course we all know that for ordinary training the Territorial Force authorities hire horses, and those horses serve very often for three successive trainings. If these were the only horses it would be three to one, but on mobilisation that has nothing whatever to do with the state of things as you have a right to take horses, and the only question is, Have you classified them, censused them, marked them down, and are they there? There will be a horse for every man who requires a horse; and, as I say, that process is far advanced. There has always been a controversy about wagons. In the provision of wagons the noble Earl has worked with distinguished success; he has raised numbers, and his is one of the most efficient Associations in the country. I do not know whether he has raised this question, but a number of the Associations would like to have a certain type of wagon. We have always said that for your first line of transport you must have these wagons, and many of these have been sent to them; but we have told them that for the rest they must mobilise, as is done in Switzerland, with civilian carts and wagons—that they must mark them down, and they have done that. Wagons were never in discussion very much; there has been more real question as to horses, and as far as I know the horse problem is now very close to a final solution.
What else is there about mobilisation? The rifles, the guns, the ammunition, the clothing, the equipment are there. I inquired to-day, "How does it stand with the Territorial Force if we were ordered to mobilise at once?" The answer was that the Infantry could be sent at once to their stations. That ought to be done within twenty-four hours in the existing state of things. Until the horse supply is quite complete it might take four days before the mounted arms were properly supplied—of course where the horse census is very far behind it would naturally take longer, but it ought not to take longer than that. But the mobilisa-
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tion of a Citizen Force is never the most precise and beautiful thing, and never can be the same precise thing that the mobilisation of a Regular Force is. You do not spend the same money on it, but you get a very effective mobilisation. The stations are defined, the units are marked out, the orders given to assemble arid to concentrate, they go in detachments and arrive at the place of assembly, and in that way this Force is mobilised, and I am told that the Territorial Force could be mobilised very rapidly. I am giving the noble Earl the answers I got to-day on inquiry at the proper department. I am far from saying that the mobilisation of a Citizen Force can anything like approach the beauty and precision of the mobilisation of a Regular Force, but what we want is expedition with a due regard to public safety. I think I have covered the points raised by the noble Earl. I am sorry if some reporter has taken words of mine and turned them into suggestions showing this difference between peace establishment and war establishment. The noble Earl has raised a splendid contingent in his part of the country, a contingent which is a model for the Territorial Force. I trust that what I have been reported to have said will not affect the exertions of the noble Earl, because I think I have shown him that what has been attributed to me is mythical.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I intervene for a moment, not to continue the discussion which always does arise on these occasions with reference to the position of this Force, but merely to point out what seem to be some discrepancies in the speeches recently made by the Secretary of State for War. In a speech at Tranent at the end of September the noble Viscount said that he was going to use the Territorial Force for all it was worth the first day of war. "For all that it was worth" obviously implies that it was worth a very great deal. But more recently I observe that in a speech made to the 6th Battalion of the City of London Rifles on December 1, he asserted that a compulsory force of men trained for four or six months, in the opinion of his best advisers, would be of no use. I feel disposed to ask the noble Viscount whether when he made the first statement he was guided by the opinion of his best advisers, or possibly it was the opinion of his second best advisers.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I said it would be of no use opposed man to man to Continental troops trained for two or three years.
LORD NEWTON: But the report which I read terminated with the word "use." Therefore I do not see that the argument is materially affected by the addition made by the noble Viscount. But what I want to know is whether he was equally guided by the opinion of those best advisers when he made the speech saying he was going to utilise the Territorial Force from the first day of war, because it is perfectly evident that if in the opinion of the best advisers men who have been trained for four or six months are of no practical use, they arc not likely to have a high opinion of the value of men trained for a period of only about two weeks. This being presumably the view of the best advisers of the noble Viscount, I should like to ask him what is their opinion of the Special Reserve, the special force which happens to be trained for that particular period? So far from drawing the conclusion which my noble friend does in his Question that there are a number of persons in this country who are lulled into a state of false security by virtue of these somewhat conflicting statements, to me they only create the impression that the noble Viscount, with his accustomed ingenuity, is doing his best to conceal the breakdown of the system for which he himself has expressed so much admiration.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, have only one question to ask, and that is whether the noble Viscount relies on the statement of Mr. Acland, or whether he admits, as by implication lie does, that that was an overdrawn picture of the condition of the Territorial Force. I am not going into the difficulties which we discussed, on a recent occasion, but I put it to the noble Viscount that these extravagant statements as to our preparedness—statements which Financial Secretaries and Under-Secretaries who file through the War Office and imbibe Lord Haldane's optimism deliver with absolute conviction while they stand, so to speak, by his side, but the moment they are emancipated they seem to cast oft a good deal of that which they have imbibed and so readily assimilated—these extravagant statements, from his own point of view, from the point of view of the obvious reaction which must come
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whenever the Force is examined by somebody who has not got the paternal interest in it which Lord Haldane has, ought to be checked. Nothing has clone more to handicap us on this side of the House in supporting all that is best in the system which he has set on foot than the fact that an amount is claimed for it such as no system of voluntary service could hope to obtain. The late Financial Secretary to the War Office is reported to have said that within forty-eight hours the Territorial Force could stand forth absolutely equipped. I wish to see it in that condition. So far as my noble friend behind me and others on this side of the House can, we will assist the noble Viscount to do it. But we know that the matter has not been accomplished yet, and I put it to him that it is not only unwise but misleading that these statements should be made.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I have explained what the late Financial Secretary said—namely, that he had provided the money. What lie was thinking of was the fact that at the time we had a good deal of money. It so happened. It does not so often happen at the War Office, and one of the things required was to supply certain things to the Territorial Force. That was clone, and the money was set aside, and my hon. friend who was leaving us naturally looked back with pride at having supplied sufficient money to enable the Territorial Force to be mobilised in forty-eight hours completely equipped. Whether he was sanguine in that view or not, I do not say, but lie had seen to the money. As regards the point raised by Lord Newton, I was speaking solely of men put against Continental trained Regulars.
LORD NEWTON: But may I ask, Whom else would they be expected to fight?
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I said that, in the opinion of my best advisers, men who had been trained from four to six mouths were not fit to meet, man for man, Regulars who had been trained for two or three years; and I have never suggested that the Territorial Force should meet them man for man. The whole point of the Territorial Force is that you have vastly superior numbers to anything that could be landed in this country. That is a very different proposition, and

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I do not see any inconsistency in what I said in the two speeches referred to by Lord Newton. It may be my stupidity, but I cannot see the inconsistency. As for assuming a sanguine attitude, in the face of all the gloomy predictions which come to me from all hands about the Territorial Force, what else can I do but endeavour to preserve a decent equanimity.

METROPOLITAN POLICE RATE BILL.
Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 273x00AA;To-morrow (The Lord Ashby St. Ledgers). (No. 248.)

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I move that the House do meet at 12 o'clock midday to-morrow.
Moved, That the House do adjourn until 12 o'clock to-morrow.—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at five minutes before Eight o' clock till To-morrow.