Lords Sitting of 22 August 1911

COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent—

Parsonages.

Public Health (Scotland) Act (1897) Amendment.

Official Secrets.

THE LABOUR DISPUTES.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, when the noble Viscount asked us to reassemble to-day lie rather led us to believe that it would be in his power then to inform us as to the effect of the very serious negotiations which have gone on since your Lordships met last week. I think we must all congratulate the Government and the country on the great limitation of the area of the strike operations due to the negotiations which have proceeded in the interval; but I am sure it would be a satisfaction to your Lordships to know how matters stand now, to what areas the strike has been reduced, and, in particular, whether His Majesty's Government are now in a position to state the names of the Commissioners who it is proposed should immediately take up the task of considering the position and action of the Conciliation Boards.
There is one further question on which I would like to ask for information. It certainly appears from the published reports of the last few days that beyond the actual trouble in the strike areas, a certain amount of serious rioting has occurred in wales, not merely in connection with strikes; and I am sure some anxiety is felt with regard to the position in some of these centres, and notably Tredegar, at which we understand some further collision has taken place, I am sure the noble Viscount will not misinterpret it if I say that what I know is felt by members on this side is that we all fully realise that the Government are naturally and laudably anxious to avoid the employment of troops, and, above all, to avoid the employment of troops where any collision might be provoked merely by their employment. On the other hand, I think we must realise that the operations of the last few days have caused a very severe
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strain indeed on the police and troops called upon to act, and that in some cases there would certainly scent to have been occasions when, if the military forces which were called out had been allowed to act effectively at first, and after the provocation was such as to call for that intervention, possibly much damage might have been saved, and, indeed, some loss of life.
I would press the noble Viscount to assure us that it is the intention of the Government that in these cases of aggravated disorder, where it is necessary to call upon the troops to use their weapons, that if such a case does again occur it will be fully understood that those in command will be encouraged to act effectively at the earliest moment which will cause the restoration of order. There have been cases in Wales earlier in the year in which unquestionable very serious riots were allowed to proceed for a considerable number of hours without such intervention. If such intervention seems to be called for, then to allow disorder and damage to go on actually in the presence of the troops seems to create a probability of farther intervention being called for in other cases which might be avoided if it were understood that troops would only be called in when it is intended to take effective action. I do not wish in any way to show any want of confidence in His Majesty's Government, but we should be glad to be reassured as to the state of affairs in some of these centres of disturbance in Wales.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, I will deal first with the latter part of the noble Viscount's interrogation. The object of the Government throughout has been to avoid bloodshed wherever possible, and, on the other hand, to observe the paramount purpose of maintaining the protection of life and limb and property. The plan adopted at an early stage for the purpose of dealing with this difficult situation Was to divide the areas where there was likely to be rioting into districts. England and Scotland were divided into districts, and a picked officer was sent to command the troops in each area, and troops were sent to him with instructions to him to be in close communication with the civil authorities. We, on the other hand, at the War Office were in close communication with the Home Office, and in that way we believe

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we succeeded in bringing the civilian view and the military view into close relation. We were always very well informed through the Home Office of what was necessary, and were able to issue instructions accordingly to the officers commanding the districts.
It was impossible, of course, from London to survey every point in the disturbed areas, and we consequently gave a discretion and a direction to the officer commanding in each district, placing on him the responsibility of seeing that adequate steps were taken. He was thoroughly informed in writing of the principles which we thought ought to guide him. He knew his work. It is obvious that even so, and even with the 58,000 troops we had at our disposal and ready, all of whom it was not necessary to use, but the greater part of whom were used—it obviously was not possible to cover every point. For instance, a signal-box might be attacked by a sudden mob, and consequently it may seem as though there were cases where the military might have acted and did not. The fact was the military could not get there in time. We were very anxious not to send military in where they were not really needed. It was better to rely on police and special constables where they could be relied upon, but there were cases where it was impossible for the police and special constables to cope with the disorders which arose. Liverpool was one such case. Wales was another, and there have been other eases, though I am thankful to say very few of them.
So far as I know, only five people have been killed by the rifles of the troops. I say "only," but I think it is a great disaster that five should have been killed. But it is better that it should be shown that the law has a firm hand and that disorder can be dealt with than that the troops should flinch from the duty cast upon them by the common law of the land. Under those circumstances, the survey of the situation discloses this, that the real rioters were not workmen out on strike. As a rule, these men were men who did what they did from a strong conviction that they were vindicating their rights. They might have been right or they might have been wrong, but it was their conviction, and they were not the prime movers, as far as we could discover, in these disturbances. Wherever you have social disorganisation, such as that
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we have experienced, there comes to the surface an element which the good feeling and steady-going mind of the public keeps under in ordinary times, but which breaks out more or less unrestrained now and again. It is that element, consisting in the main of people who have nothing whatever to do with the dispute, who were the cause of the riots and actually came in conflict with the police and troops. I do not say that was always so, but it was so in a great many cases.
The House knows the strike was settled on Saturday night, but, although the strike was declared settled by those in authority, as regards both the railway companies and the men, and an agreement was come to, it takes some time to carry the decision into effect; and, moreover, there are always cases where the local interests of the strikers make them not ready to fall in with the view of the authorities, and, accordingly, there are places where there are still what I may call sporadic strikes going on and where the labour difficulties have not been got rid of. I am glad to say the prospects are good of things being settled. Men are returning to work, but in the North of England there are cases where things are not yet finally settled, and the Board of Trade is using its utmost exertions to assist those engaged in endeavouring to come to terms to accomplish that object.
Part of the terms of the settlement was that the Government should appoint a Royal Commission, not to sit in the leisurely way in which Royal Commissions usually sit, but to set to work at once and dispose of these matters in the minimum possible time. I am now in a position to announce the names of those whom the Government has selected to serve. The Chairman will be Sir David Harrel, who has bad considerable experience in settling these disputes, and whose intervention has been acceptable. With him are serving Sir Thomas Ratcliffe Ellis, well known in connection with industrial matters, and particularly with the coal trade; Mr. Arthur Henderson, M.P.; Mr. Beale, of the firm of Messrs. Beale, Marigold, and Beale, solicitors, Birmingham, who has great experience in railway matters; and Mr. John Burnett, late of the Board of Trade. We hope the Commission will get to work at once, and that it will be able to present a Report on the points in con-

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troversy, and that that Report may be instrumental in assisting to dispose of the points which are still outstanding.

THE ADJOURNMENT.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, I move that the House do adjourn, except for Judicial business, until Wednesday, October 25th.
Moved, That the House do adjourn, except for Judicial business, until October 25th.—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at half-past Three o'clock, to Monday the 16th October, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.