COTTON CLOTH FACTORIES BILL. (Hansard, 18 August 1911)

§ THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS)
My Lords, this is a Bill to enable the Secretary of State for the Home Department to issue certain regulations with regard to humidity and ventilation in cotton-weaving factories. It carries out the recommendations of a Committee appointed in November, 1907. The Committee included representatives of both sides, the employers and those engaged in the industry, and they arrived at a unanimous conclusion on all points except one, and that point they unanimously agreed to leave to the determination of the Secretary of State. This Bill merely gives the Secretary of State power to make such by-laws. I may say that it is an agreed Bill; both sides want it. It has come up to this House in an unamended form and is a subject of certain urgency because the manufacturers want to have time to make preparations and arrangements for next summer, I hope, on these grounds, that the House will grant the Bill a Second Reading and pass it through all its stages to-day.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
My Lords, I do not desire to place any impediment in the way of this Bill, but I think it requires a remark or two. In the first place, with regard to the drafting. The noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack the other day very properly animadverted upon a Bill which I had introduced on the ground of legislation by reference, but I think if he will look at this Bill he will see that it offends very much more against those canons than even my Bill did. This Bill is absolutely nothing but legislation by reference with the exception of the first subsection— The Secretary of State may make regulations for the purpose of giving effect to such of the recommendations contained in the Second Report, 1151 dated January nineteen hundred and eleven, of the Committee appointed by the Secretary of State on the twenty-seventh day of November nineteen hundred and seven to inquire into the question of humidity and ventilation in cotton cloth factories, as he may deem necessary for the protection of health in cotton cloth factories. That is the only sentence that I understand, and, unfortunately, I find it necessary to take exception to it, because this subsection as it stands gives to the Secretary of State unlimited powers to make such regulations as he chooses with regard to these matters.
When this Bill was in the other House of Parliament there was a Memorandum which is not prefixed to the Bill as printed in your Lordships' House. That Memorandum said this— The procedure proposed in the Bill follows the precedent of the Cotton Cloth Factories Act passed in 1897. Unfortunately that is not correct. Under the Act of 1897, which was continued by the 1901 Act, it was necessary that notice should be given of the regulations and that any regulations made should be laid before Parliament, and it was enacted that either House might, if it saw fit, stop such regulations. This Bill gives an unlimited power to the Secretary of State to make regulations, and there is no provision at all for their being laid before Parliament; nor is there any provision for their publication, as would have been necessary under the Act of 1901, to all persons concerned. It would be very easy to insert words which would meet this point. I think the words might run thus—"The Secretary of State may, by a special Order made under Section 126 of the Factories and Workshops Act, 1901, make regulations," etc. That would embrace all the restrictions and obligations of which I spoke just now.
As I said, I do not wish in any way to impede this Bill, because, as the noble Lord explained, it is an agreed Bill and it is desirable that it should pass. We are now in the dog days and in the days of hurry, when we are always ready to pass any Bill about anything in order that we may get away; but at the same time I would ask the noble Lord whether it would be possible—I understand that the other House meets next Tuesday—to now insert the words that I have suggested and send them to the other House. If the noble Lord says that he will take the point into consideration and will insert the words if 1152 he finds that he can do so, of course that would satisfy me. If, on the other hand, he is not willing to go so far as that, and if he does not think he can admit an Amendment now, I would ask for an undertaking very much like that which was given to Lord Midleton just now—an undertaking that the Home Office, when making such regulations, will lay them on the Table of both Houses just as they would be obliged to do under the Act of 1901. I have thought it necessary to make these remarks not only because of the action of the Home Office but of other Departments. I think the Local Government Board is about the worst, but the Treasury is pretty bad. When the Old Age Pensions Act was before this House I succeeded in persuading your Lordships to insert an Amendment very much to this effect. Subsequently the Treasury made a regulation which turned out to be absolutely illegal, and which, in consequence of this provision, they were obliged to withdraw. That is an instance in which the insertion of words like these was of material use. I shall be quite ready to accept whichever of the two courses the noble Lord is prepared to adopt.

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (EARL LOREBURN)
My Lords, one of my colleagues on the Front Government Bench will reply to the practical suggestion which the noble Earl has made. I only rise for the purpose of adverting to the complaint made by the noble Earl with regard to legislation by reference. I am perfectly impenitent with regard to everything I have said on that subject. But I wish to say this, that we ought not to lay blame upon the Government draftsmen, than whom I do not know any more competent, more laborious, or more deserving public servants. We have got into a habit for generations almost of legislating by reference, and I do think it is a most unfortunate practice. For some years past we have had a Committee in both Houses who have undertaken the task of simplifying and consolidating the law, not altering it but consolidating it by general assent, and I think it might be well if next year we extended a little the compass of our work. I think we might take a Bill of this kind, write it large, so to speak, so that people can understand it, and then substitute those provisions for the provisions which contain legislation by reference. I can promise the noble Earl that I will bear the point in mind.

§ LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS
My Lords, I do not think there was any intention in this first clause to give the Secretary of State further powers than those which he would have enjoyed Lad the precedent of the Act of 1901 been closely followed. It is in all probability nothing more than a slip, and I do not know that there would be any objection to accepting the Amendment which the noble Earl has suggested; but at this late hour in the session I would prefer to accept his other suggestion and give the undertaking that he desires—namely, that the regulations shall be printed and laid upon the Table of both Houses for forty days as is provided in the clause which the noble Earl quoted. If the noble Earl will accept that undertaking I shall be glad, as we are very anxious to get the Bill through.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
Hear, hear.

§ VISCOUNT MIDLETON
I think we shall all agree that the undertaking which the noble Lord has given is quite satisfactory. But as regards what was said by the noble, and learned Earl on the Woolsack, I am afraid the fault does not lie with the draftsmen but almost entirely with successive Ministers, who are always desirous of reducing the bulk of Bills on which comment can be made in the other House of Parliament.