Lords Sitting of 18 August 1911

CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
COPYRIGHT BILL.
MERCHANDIZE MARKS BILL.
TELEGRAPH (CONSTRUCTION) BILL.
PACIFIC CABLE BILL.
EDUCATION (ADMINISTRATIVE PROVI SIONS) No. 2 BILL.
SALFORD HUNDRED COURT OF RECORD BILL.
ISLE OF MAN HARBOURS BILL.
Brought from the Commons.

OFFICIAL SECRETS BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
OLD AGE PENSIONS BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendment, agreed to.
PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.
Additional and amending General Orders for the regulation of proceedings under and in pursuance of the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1889.
University Court Ordinance, No. 38 (Edinburgh, No. 13) (Institution of Degrees in Veterinary Science and Relative Regulations): Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and to be printed. (No. 198.)

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, the object of this Bill is to continue various expiring laws in order that arrangements may be made under them which cannot be made without statutory authority. There are also financial considerations. There is included in this Bill one Act as to which a question was raised by the noble Marquess
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the Leader of the Opposition on Tuesday last—the Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Act, 1907. As to that, the Government do not propose to carry on the existing Act beyond the limited time proposed in this Bill, and it is only for the purpose of dealing with certain cases—numbering 630, I think—now under consideration, many of which are very proper cases to be dealt with. The Government do not desire to bring in another Act of this kind, and, though I am very reluctant to give Parliamentary pledges with regard to the future, it is believed that if your Lordships will assent to the inclusion of this Act in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill for a year, we shall be able in that time to dispose of the whole of the business outstanding and not have to ask for any renewal. As regards the other Acts in the Schedule, they are measures which I think are proper to be carried on. Some of them are absolutely essential, and it is in accordance with usual practice that they should be included.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Viscount Haldane.)
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: The noble Marquess the Leader of the Opposition called attention on Tuesday last to the inclusion in this Bill of the Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Act. That Act is a very unusual one to include in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. In his statement the noble Viscount, I think, recognised that. I cannot refrain from reminding your Lordships that the duration of the Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Act was the subject of vigorous discussion, not only in this House, but between the two Houses of Parliament four years ago, and it was then pressed by this House, with the assent of the noble Marquess, Lord Crewe, that the Bill should remain in force only for three years. Your Lordships agreed to an Amendment to that effect, but the House of Commons sent back the Amendment with a demand that the period should be four years. Upon that Lord Ashbourne proposed that we should insert the words "four years and no longer," and the reply from the noble Marquess the then Leader of the House, Lord Crewe, was—"Certainly, if you desire it," or words to that effect. Therefore there was a clear Parliamentary bargain that this Act should not exist for more than four years. I submit that if it was desired to extend the period it ought

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to have been raised as a separate measure and not in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill.
We know what the course of the, Evicted Tenants Act has been. We had from the Government Bench the clearest assurance that the cases that would come under it numbered between 1,200 and 2,000. Yet we know that, although under the restricted wording which we unanimously adopted it was intended to confine the Act to those who had fallen in the fight during the Campaign, some 10,000 applications were made under the Act. A large number of those were never intended to be dealt with by Parliament at all. I am sorry to say that it has come to the knowledge of those connected with Ireland that cases have been dealt with which ought not to have come under the Act—cases of tenants who had been evicted not in the slightest degree because they had fallen in the land war, but who were evicted simply because they had been unable and were unfit to carry on their business. Some of the men dealt with under this Act had been for years out of the country, having voluntarily given up their farms.
I should like to ask the noble Viscount whether, if we at this advanced hour of the session offer no objection to the Evicted Tenants Act being included in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill for a year, we may count on it that it is the intention of the Government, subject to any unforeseen circumstances, to bring the Act to a close within that period; and, secondly, that should the Government for any reason wish to extend the Act for a few months they will introduce a Bill which we can discuss and not again include the Act in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I think I can give the promise asked for. It certainly is in the contemplation of the Government to wind up this business in the course of a year. That is so definitely their intention that I think I may give the further pledge that if, through unforeseen circumstances, we wish to further extend the Act we will introduce a Bill for the purpose.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I hope an intimation will also be given to the Commissioners that they are to use the extension of the Act only, on the noble Viscount's pledge, for winding up the business which has already been entered upon.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Yes, cases that are already under consideration.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bill read 3a, and passed.

COTTON CLOTH FACTORIES BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS): My Lords, this is a Bill to enable the Secretary of State for the Home Department to issue certain regulations with regard to humidity and ventilation in cotton-weaving factories. It carries out the recommendations of a Committee appointed in November, 1907. The Committee included representatives of both sides, the employers and those engaged in the industry, and they arrived at a unanimous conclusion on all points except one, and that point they unanimously agreed to leave to the determination of the Secretary of State. This Bill merely gives the Secretary of State power to make such by-laws. I may say that it is an agreed Bill; both sides want it. It has come up to this House in an unamended form and is a subject of certain urgency because the manufacturers want to have time to make preparations and arrangements for next summer, I hope, on these grounds, that the House will grant the Bill a Second Reading and pass it through all its stages to-day.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I do not desire to place any impediment in the way of this Bill, but I think it requires a remark or two. In the first place, with regard to the drafting. The noble and learned Earl on the Woolsack the other day very properly animadverted upon a Bill which I had introduced on the ground of legislation by reference, but I think if he will look at this Bill he will see that it offends very much more against those canons than even my Bill did. This Bill is absolutely nothing but legislation by reference with the exception of the first subsection—
"The Secretary of State may make regulations for the purpose of giving effect to such of the recommendations contained in the Second Report,

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dated January nineteen hundred and eleven, of the Committee appointed by the Secretary of State on the twenty-seventh day of November nineteen hundred and seven to inquire into the question of humidity and ventilation in cotton cloth factories, as he may deem necessary for the protection of health in cotton cloth factories."
That is the only sentence that I understand, and, unfortunately, I find it necessary to take exception to it, because this subsection as it stands gives to the Secretary of State unlimited powers to make such regulations as he chooses with regard to these matters.
When this Bill was in the other House of Parliament there was a Memorandum which is not prefixed to the Bill as printed in your Lordships' House. That Memorandum said this—
"The procedure proposed in the Bill follows the precedent of the Cotton Cloth Factories Act passed in 1897."
Unfortunately that is not correct. Under the Act of 1897, which was continued by the 1901 Act, it was necessary that notice should be given of the regulations and that any regulations made should be laid before Parliament, and it was enacted that either House might, if it saw fit, stop such regulations. This Bill gives an unlimited power to the Secretary of State to make regulations, and there is no provision at all for their being laid before Parliament; nor is there any provision for their publication, as would have been necessary under the Act of 1901, to all persons concerned. It would be very easy to insert words which would meet this point. I think the words might run thus—"The Secretary of State may, by a special Order made under Section 126 of the Factories and Workshops Act, 1901, make regulations," etc. That would embrace all the restrictions and obligations of which I spoke just now.
As I said, I do not wish in any way to impede this Bill, because, as the noble Lord explained, it is an agreed Bill and it is desirable that it should pass. We are now in the dog days and in the days of hurry, when we are always ready to pass any Bill about anything in order that we may get away; but at the same time I would ask the noble Lord whether it would be possible—I understand that the other House meets next Tuesday—to now insert the words that I have suggested and send them to the other House. If the noble Lord says that he will take the point into consideration and will insert the words if
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he finds that he can do so, of course that would satisfy me. If, on the other hand, he is not willing to go so far as that, and if he does not think he can admit an Amendment now, I would ask for an undertaking very much like that which was given to Lord Midleton just now—an undertaking that the Home Office, when making such regulations, will lay them on the Table of both Houses just as they would be obliged to do under the Act of 1901. I have thought it necessary to make these remarks not only because of the action of the Home Office but of other Departments. I think the Local Government Board is about the worst, but the Treasury is pretty bad. When the Old Age Pensions Act was before this House I succeeded in persuading your Lordships to insert an Amendment very much to this effect. Subsequently the Treasury made a regulation which turned out to be absolutely illegal, and which, in consequence of this provision, they were obliged to withdraw. That is an instance in which the insertion of words like these was of material use. I shall be quite ready to accept whichever of the two courses the noble Lord is prepared to adopt.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (EARL LOREBURN): My Lords, one of my colleagues on the Front Government Bench will reply to the practical suggestion which the noble Earl has made. I only rise for the purpose of adverting to the complaint made by the noble Earl with regard to legislation by reference. I am perfectly impenitent with regard to everything I have said on that subject. But I wish to say this, that we ought not to lay blame upon the Government draftsmen, than whom I do not know any more competent, more laborious, or more deserving public servants. We have got into a habit for generations almost of legislating by reference, and I do think it is a most unfortunate practice. For some years past we have had a Committee in both Houses who have undertaken the task of simplifying and consolidating the law, not altering it but consolidating it by general assent, and I think it might be well if next year we extended a little the compass of our work. I think we might take a Bill of this kind, write it large, so to speak, so that people can understand it, and then substitute those provisions for the provisions which contain legislation by reference. I can promise the noble Earl that I will bear the point in mind.
LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS: My Lords, I do not think there was any intention in this first clause to give the Secretary of State further powers than those which he would have enjoyed Lad the precedent of the Act of 1901 been closely followed. It is in all probability nothing more than a slip, and I do not know that there would be any objection to accepting the Amendment which the noble Earl has suggested; but at this late hour in the session I would prefer to accept his other suggestion and give the undertaking that he desires—namely, that the regulations shall be printed and laid upon the Table of both Houses for forty days as is provided in the clause which the noble Earl quoted. If the noble Earl will accept that undertaking I shall be glad, as we are very anxious to get the Bill through.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Hear, hear.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I think we shall all agree that the undertaking which the noble Lord has given is quite satisfactory. But as regards what was said by the noble, and learned Earl on the Woolsack, I am afraid the fault does not lie with the draftsmen but almost entirely with successive Ministers, who are always desirous of reducing the bulk of Bills on which comment can be made in the other House of Parliament.
On Question, Bill read 2a.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bill read 3a, and passed.

GENEVA CONVENTION BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: My Lords, at the Geneva Convention in 1906 many humane and useful provisions in regard to war were agreed upon, and among them was Section 27 of the Convention which provided that the Red Cross should be protected. It is obviously desirable that this emblem, which is the guarantee of immunity from attack in time of war, should be protected. This distinctive mark is a very important one for the purpose. The Powers concerned undertook, those of them who had not legislation adequate for the purpose, to propose to their Legislatures
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legislation which should protect the mark from being appropriated by trading companies and other persons, thus depriving it of its distinctive character. The Bill which is now before your Lordships is a Bill to give effect to that Convention. We ratified the Convention subject to our being able to secure from our Legislature the assent to the Red Cross mark being protected. This Bill has passed through the other House and is in every respect a desirable Bill. In case any private persons should have appropriated the mark while there was no legislation preventing it, although I do not think that these people are very deserving having regard to the well-known character of the mark, we have given them four years in which to get out of it. I beg to move.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.
On Question. Bill read 2a.
Committee nagatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended). Bill read 3a. and passed.

PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
  TELEPHONE TRANSFER BILL.
  Read 2a (according to order): Committees negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bills read 3a, and passed.
CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
Read 1a: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bill read 2a (The Earl of Liverpool): Committee negatived: Bill read 3a. and passed.
COPYRIGHT BILL. (No. 191.)
  MERCHANDIZE MARKS BILL (No. 192.)
  Read 1a, and to be printed.
TELEGRAPH (CONSTRUCTION) BILL.
Read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 194.)

PACIFIC CABLE BILL. (No. 197.)
EDUCATION (ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS) NO. 2 BILL. (No. 193.)
SALFORD HUNDRED COURT OF RECORD BILL. (No. 196.)
ISLE OF MAN HARBOURS BILL. (No. 195.)
Read 1a, and to be printed.

THE LABOUR DISPUTES.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: I should like to ask whether the noble Viscount has any information which he can give to the House as to the very serious position with regard to the negotiations between the Government and the strike leaders.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: I am sorry to say the situation is a difficult one. We are engaged in close negotiations at the present time, and I do not think it would be expedient that I should try to say anything now. Moreover, we are going to propose that Parliament should adjourn till Tuesday and it is possible that then there may be something further to communicate. There will be, at any rate, an opportunity for a statement. We feel that in the present condition of things it would not be right for Parliament to adjourn until October without our seeing how matters stand. There may be some necessity for action.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.

COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent—

Consolidated Fund (Appropriation).

Municipal Elections.

Merchant Shipping (Seamen's Allotment).

Public Libraries (Ireland).

Poultry.

Intestate Husband's Estate (Scotland).

Public Health (Ireland).

Parliament.

Isle of Man (Customs).

Old Age Pensions.

Indian High Courts.

Labourers (Ireland).

Pensions (Governors of Dominions, &c).

Telephone Transfer.

Public Works Loans.

Government of India Act (1858) Amendment (No. 2).

Cotton Cloth Factories.

Expiring Laws Continuance.

Geneva Convention.

National Gallery and St. James's Park.

Protection of Animals.

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Inverness Harbour Order Confirmation.

Dumbarton Churchyard Order Confirmation.

Chambers Institution Peebles Order Confirmation.

Aberdeen Corporation Order Confirmation.

North British Railway (Superannuation Fund. &c.) Order Confirmation.

Dunfermline and District Tramways Order Confirmation.

Edinburgh Suburban Electric Tramways Order Confirmation.

Paisley District Tramways Order Confirmation.

Partick Burgh Order Confirmation.

Well park (Glasgow) Church and Parish Quoad Sacra Order Confirmation.

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 1).

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2).

Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3).

Land Drainage Provisional Order.

Land Drainage Provisional Order (No.2).

Land Drainage Provisional Order (No. 3).

Metropolitan Police Provisional Order.

Derwent Fisheries Provisional Order.

Severn Fisheries Provisional Order.

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 1).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 4).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 5).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 6).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 8).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 9).

Local Government Provisional Order (No. 11).

Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 14).

Local Government Provisional Order (No. 15).

Local Government Provisional Orders, (Gas).

Local Government Provisional Order (Gas) (No. 2).

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Board of Education Scheme (Alnwick Corporation Payment) Confirmation.

Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (Durham, &c).

Education Board Provisional Orders Confirmation (London).

Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Orders.

Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation (No. 1).

Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation (No. 2).

Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No.3).

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No.1).

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No.2).

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3).

Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 4).

Electric Lighting Provisional Order (No. 5).

Port of London (First Election of Members) Provisional Order.

Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 1).

Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 2).

Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 3).

Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 4).

Gas and Water Orders Confirmation.

Tramways Orders Confirmation.

Ashborne and District Gas.

Paignton Urban District Council.

South Lancashire Tramways.

Manchester Ship Canal.

Thames Conservancy.

Southampton Harbour.

Chasetown Gas.

London, Brighton and South Coast Railway.

Oystermouth Urban District Council.

Lloyds.

London County Council (General Powers).

Northampton Corporation.

Widnes and Runcorn Bridge (Transfer).

Chapel, Whaley and District Gas.

Winchester Corporation (Electric Supply).

Sidmouth Gas and Electricity.

Star Life Assurance Society.

Dover Graving Dock.

Liverpool Overhead Railway.

Alexandra (Newport and South Wales) Docks and Railway.

Metropolitan Railway.

Milford Docks.

London and South Western Railway.

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Bristol Tramways.

Chester Water.

Hornsea Urban District Council.

Great Northern Railway.

Dundee Harbour and Tay Ferries.

Handsworth Urban District Council.

Marple Urban District Council Gas.

Central London Railway.

City of London (Various Powers).

Great Western Railway.

Kingston-upon-Hull Corporation.

Luton Corporation.

Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Tramways.

Kingston-upon-Thames Bridge.

Penllwyn Railway.

Middlesbrough, Stockton-on-Tees, and Thornaby Tramways.

Gloucester Corporation.

Metropolitan Electric Tramways.

North-Eastern Railway.

Barry Railway.

London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway.

Merthyr Tydfil Corporation Water.

Swansea Gas.

Great Yarmouth Port and Haven.

Midland Railway.

Paddington Borough Council (Superannuation and Pensions).

Poplar Borough Council (Superannuation and Pensions).

Rhondda Urban District Council.

Dunfermline Burgh Extension and Drainage.

Ipswich Corporation.

London County Council (Tramways and Improvements).

Woking Urban District Council (Basing-stoke Canal).

Manchester Corporation.

Aberdare Urban District Council.

Brighton, Hove and District Railless Traction.

East Kent Electric Power.

Chiswick Urban District Council.

Halifax Corporation.

London County Council (Money).

Margam Urban District Council.

Rotherham Corporation.

St. Helens Corporation.

Metropolitan Water Board (New-Works).

Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation.

Corporation of London (Bridges).

Westbury Estate.

House adjourned at five minutes before Four o'clock, to Tuesday next, Three o'clock.