Lords Sitting of 17 August 1911

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
COTTON CLOTH FACTORIES BILL.
GENEVA CONVENTION BILL.
PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
TELEPHONE TRANSFER BILL.
Brought from the Commons.

PARSONAGES BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to with an Amendment.
PROTECTION OF ANIMALS BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Order No. XXXIX considered (according to order), and suspended for this day and To-morrow.
WATSON'S DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a (according to order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
WELLPARK (GLASGOW) CHURCH AND PARISH QUOAD SACRA ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
COMMONS REGULATION (WINTON AND KABER) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  COMMONS REGULATION (BURRINGTON) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Moved, That the Order made on the 29th day of March last, "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Tuesday the 4th day of July next," be dispensed with, and that the Bills be now read a second time;agreed to: Bills read 2a accordingly, and committed.

NATIONAL GALLERY AND ST. JAMES'S PARK BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendment considered (according to order).
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): This is a privilege Amendment which deals with charges upon the Consolidated Fund. It was agreed to by your Lordships on the Second Reading, but it went down to the other House in the curious way in which privilege Amendments are generally dealt with in this place.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) ACT (1897) AMENDMENT BILL.
Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, this is a small Bill which was put forward by members on both sides in the other House. It extends the powers conferred on a local authority, enabling them to carry sewers within their district to any body of trustees or commissioners authorised to supply water by any Local Act within the limits of such water supply. There was no objection to the Bill in the other House, and I hope your Lordships will give it a Second Reading.
Moved, That the Bill he now read 2a.—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
On Question, Bill read 2a: Committee negatived.
Then (Standing Order XXXIX having been suspended), Bill read 3a, and passed.

PLACES OF WORSHIP (ENFRANCHISEMENT) BILL. [H.L.]
Bill read 3a (according to order).
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: There is an Amendment standing on the Paper in my name which I mentioned to your Lordships on Tuesday last and which the noble Earl in charge of the Bill said he would consider before the Third Reading.

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The Amendment is in Clause 1, page 1, line 26, to leave out "include" and insert would allow "The object of this Amendment is to deal with existing trusts, as, of course, in future trusts it will be possible to provide for anything which is in this Act. As the Bill now stands, it is possible that the word "include" might be construed as requiring that in order to exclude a trust from the operation of this Act there should be a specific statement with reference to trade. The words which I propose to substitute may be regarded as somewhat wide, but I cannot see any middle term between the two. I apprehend that the purpose of the Government is to exclude from the operation of this Bill such trusts as I have before referred to.
Amendment moved—
Clause 1, page 1, line 26, leave out ("include") and insert ("would allow").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, I confess I find myself in two minds on this matter. My own opinion would be that the noble Earl's Amendment would go some way towards destroying the value of this Bill. On the other hand, those on whose advice we rely in these technical matters assure me that it is unnecessary to be alarmed, and that the words suggested would still allow a fair use of the Bill. In those circumstances I shall offer no opposition to the noble Earl's Amendment.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: The other Amendment on the Paper standing in my name is put down in accordance with a very general wish expressed in your Lordships' House on Tuesday last that the Amendment originally drafted by Lord Dunmore should be couched in language a little more intelligible than that in which it first appeared on the Paper. I hope the noble Earl has had an opportunity of assuring himself that this Amendment carries out his object.
Amendment moved—
Schedule, page 4 line 26, leave out ("in"), and leave out from Act") to the end of line 33, and insert ("read as follows—
'Before the promoters of the undertaking dispose of any such superfluous lands they shall. … first offer to sell the same to the person who was entitled to the freehold reversion in the lands at the time when the interest of the trustees in the lands
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was enlarged into a fee simple or the successor in title (if any) of that person; and if that person or his successor in title, as the case may be, refuse to purchase the same, or cannot after diligent inquiry be found, then the like offer shall be made to the person or to the several persons whose lands shall immediately adjoin the lands so proposed to be sold, such persons being capable of entering into a contract for the purchase of such lands: and where more than one such person shall be entitled to such right of pre-emption such offer shall be made to such persons in succession, one after another, in such order as -the promoters of the undertaking shall think fit'").—(Earl Beauchamp.)
THE EARL OF DUNMORE: I am quit satisfied with the Amendment as now proposed by the noble Earl.
On Question, Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons, and to be printed as amended. (No. 189.)

CONVEYANCING BILL. [H.L.]
House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without amendment: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bill read 3a, and sent to the Commons.
PENSIONS (GOVERNORS OF DOMINIONS, &c.) BILL.
  INDIAN HIGH COURTS BILL.
    LABOURERS (IRELAND) BILL.
    House in Committee (according to order) Bills reported without amendment: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been suspended), Bills read 3a, and passed.
    OLD AGE PENSIONS BILL.
    Read 3a (according to order), with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

GOVERNMENT OF INDIA ACT (1858) AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
[SECOND READING.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: My Lords, this is a small Bill which has passed through the other House without opposition of any kind. The purpose of it is to enable the

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Secretary of State to make certain allowances to members of the staff of the Government of India at home here in England. It is possible already for him to make these allowances to those who are in the Indian Civil Service, but some question has arisen as to whether it is possible for him to make them to gentlemen who are serving in the India Office at Whitehall. The object of this Bill is not only to remove this doubt, but also in a case of considerable hardship to make it quite certain that the Secretary of State has not acted ultra vires. The Bill is a plain and simple one, and I shall be glad to give any further explanation of it if any noble Lord wishes.
Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Earl Beauchamp.)
On Question, Bill read 2a.
EARL BEAUCHAMP: I am entirely in the hands of the House. I would be quite prepared to put off until to-morrow the future stages of the Bill if any noble Lord desires to carefully examine its innocent provisions. But if noble Lords are content to trust the apparent harmlessness of the Bill, I should like to get it through its remaining stages to-day.
Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX having been uspended), Bill read 3a, and passed.

EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
Read 1a, and to be printed (The Viscount Haldane). (No. 186.)
COTTON CLOTH FACTORIES BILL.
Read 1a, and to be printed (The Lord Ashby St. Ledgers). (No. 185.)
GENEVA CONVENTION BILL.
Read 1a, and to be printed (The Viscount Haldane). (No. 188.)
PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
Read 1a, and to be printed (The Earl of Liverpool). (No. 184.)

TELEPHONE TRANSFER BILL.
THE EARL OF LIVERPOOL: My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House, as this Bill has not been printed and as there is very little time for getting it through its various stages. that in moving the First Reading I should briefly state the various stages of the transfer which has taken place between the Post, Office and the National Telephone Company. The negotiations first started when the Conservative Government were in office, and I think they were initiated by Lord Derby.
As regards the question of payment, the Bill makes provision for taking over the whole of the business of the National Telephone Co. First, the Post Office pay for the whole of the working plant and buy it on tramway terms, that is, making allowance for depreciation—i.e., construction cost less depreciation. Secondly, the Post Office pay for the goodwill of the private wire business the average profits for the last three years. Thirdly, the Post Office pay for the goodwill of the business in the Brighton and Portsmouth area, where the National Telephone Co.'s licence was extended beyond 1911. Settlement is arranged either by agreement or by arbitration, and there are now no outstanding points of opposition either on the part of the company or the staff. The Bill authorises the Treasury to pay the purchase price, which may be settled, as I have said. by agreement or arbitration.
Then as to the transfer of the staff. The Postmaster-General will transfer to the Post Office service the whole of the staff of the company, with the exception of a few of the higher officials, such as the directors, &c. The general condition of the transfer is that the staff will be transferred to the grades of the Post Office doing similar work, and their seniority as compared with the Office staff will depend on the relative service in corresponding duties in the company or Post Office. As regards the pensioning of the staff, under certain conditions a portion of the service when in the employment of the company will be counted towards namely, a period of two years will be from their entry into the Post Office service, with the exception of those who had not completed two years service with the National Telephone Co., and these will count the actual period which they had in the company's service towards pension. Those members

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of the staff of the National Telephone Co. who joined the company's pension fund in 1896 will, provided they transfer their shares in the pension fund when it is wound up to the Postmaster-General, be allowed to count for pension purposes the years of their service with the company or any other telephone undertaking. Those who joined the National Telephone Co. subsequent to 1896 will be allowed to count the years during which they had been members of the company's pension fund. There was in a very few cases a difficulty to assimilate the company's pension list with that of the Post Office, but this has now been arranged and cleared up by giving an additional salary in lieu of pension in about twenty-five cases in all and they have a guarantee of permanent employment. I may add that under the company's scheme only 2,000 people were pensionable; under the Post Office roughly 12,000 are pensionable out of a total of 18,000 transferred from the National Telephone Co. to the Post Office. I think that briefly describes the main points of the transfer. I beg to move.
Moved. That the Bill be now read 1a.—(The Earl of Liverpool.)
VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN: The noble Earl has said quite enough to show the importance of this Bill, and what I would ask is whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to proceed further with it to-morrow. The Bill is one of a character which requires a little further consideration and discussion, and unless there is some real cause for urgency I suppose it would not be proceeded with until the autumn. At any rate I would ask, with regard to both this Bill and the Public Works Loans Bill, that we might have them printed before we are asked to proceed further with them.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): As regards the Telephone Transfer Bill, definite agreements have to be made and it is a matter of urgency that the Bill should be got through. I am very sorry that it has reached your Lordships so late. It was a Bill the foundations of which were laid by the late Administration, and consequently Mr. Austin Chamberlain took very great interest in the Bill in the recent discussions in the House of Commons. It was very thoroughly sifted in the other House and passed with the approval of both Parties.
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Your Lordships may be satisfied that the provisions have been carefully scanned and approved, even to the details of the finance. As regards the Public Works Loans Bill, the Bill is here and we will get it printed to-night so that it will be in your Lordships' hands to-morrow. It is very much in the usual form.
On Question, Bill read 1a and to be printed. (No. 187.)

PARSONAGES BILL. [H.L.]
Commons Amendment considered (on Motion).
THE LORD ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY: The Amendment is a correction of a misprint, and I hope your Lordships will agree to it.
Moved, That this House do agree with the Commons in the said Amendment.—(The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

TOWN COUNCILS (SCOTLAND) AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to alter the date of the elections of, and the method of adopting the Burghs Gas Supply (Scotland) Act 1876 by, Town Councils in Scotland, and to provide for certified extracts from Town Council minutes being received as evidence—Was presented by The Lord Pentland; read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 190.)

THE LABOUR DISPUTES.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: I do not know whether the noble Viscount is prepared to add anything to the information which he was good enough to give us last night as to the condition of things in the labour market. I am sure the House would be glad to learn anything that there is to be learned with regard to the latest development.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: The most recent information is this. In London the improvement has in most directions been maintained, but I am sorry to say that in other directions new demands are being made which are causing a certain amount of difficulty because they seem to be going back on agreements already come to. Some

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of the lightermen have come out because they refused to work under non-union foremen, and then there is the question to which I referred yesterday arising from the claims of the dockers at the Victoria and Albert Docks to be engaged outside the dock gates. Negotiations are going on and the best is being done that can be done, but we cannot forecast what the result will be. In Liverpool the comparative quiet of yesterday continued throughout the night. Some tramway men came out yesterday, and there have been attacks on the trams, but not of a serious character. The gravest feature so far as Liverpool is concerned, is that the Strike Committee have called on the men employed in the electric power station to come out at 2 p.m. to-day. Whether they have come out or not I do not know. If they have, the result will be to stop all trams and cut off the electric light in Liverpool, Bootle, and the large areas around. There have been one or two fires in vessels in the docks, but they have been put out before much damage could be done. A cruiser has been sent by the Admiralty to the Mersey for purposes of protection. In Liverpool there are, I think, sufficient troops—4,760 Infantry and Cavalry in all. The situation is being watched, and more will be sent if necessary for the preservation of order. In Manchester there has been no marked change in the situation.
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The convoys of food have been kept up in spite of desultory attacks made, not by decent working men, but by hooligans and strikers. In Sheffield convoys of food are also being constantly attacked, chiefly by persons of the hooligan class. Infantry have recently arrived in Sheffield, and they will give any assistance necessary for the preservation of order. At one of the railway stations there was an attack last night on a signal box by a mob which threw stones from a bridge and drove out the signalmen. Assistance to guard the railway has now been given. So far as the general situation is concerned I have nothing I can usefully add. There was a meeting this morning at the Board of Trade between some of the representatives of the men and the Prime Minister and the President of the Board of Trade, but I have no statement to make of what passed. We have thought it right to restore things to their normal position by letting the Guards Brigade return to their regular station in London. I trust, however, that no occasion will arise for their service. For the rest the situation is being carefully and closely watched, and we hope we are in a position to deal with developments of it so far as law and order are concerned.
House adjourned at five minutes past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, Three o'clock.