HL Deb 15 August 1911 vol 9 cc1110-6

Amendments reported (according to Order).

Clause 1:

Right of trustees holding leasehold interest in place of worship to acquire freehold.

1.—(1) Where premises are held under a lease to which this Act applies upon trust to be used for the purposes of a place of worship or for purposes connected therewith, whether in conjunction with other purposes or not, and such premises are being used in accordance with the terms of the trust, the trustees, notwithstanding any agreement to the contrary, other than a covenant or agreement against the enlargement of the leasehold interest into a freehold contained in a lease granted or made before the passing of this Act, shall be entitled as incident to their leasehold interest, to enlarge that interest into a fee simple, and for that purpose to acquire the freehold and all intermediate reversions:

Provided that—

  1. (a) if the premises exceed two acres in extent the trustees shall not be entitled to exercise such right in respect of more than two acres thereof;
  2. (b) this Act shall not apply where the premises are used or are proposed to be used for the purposes of a place of worship in contravention of any covenant contained in the lease under which the premises are held or in any lease superior thereto.

(2) The leases to which this Act applies are leases (including underleases and agreements for leases or underleases), whether granted or made before or after the passing of this Act, for lives or a life or for the unexpired residue of any term originally created for a period of not less than twenty-one years, whether determinable on a life or lives or not.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I propose, at the beginning of subsection (1), to leave out the word "or" ["for the purposes of a place of worship or"], and to substitute the word "and." The effect will be to make the Bill a little more restrictive than it is at the present time.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 7, leave out ("or") and insert ("and").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP)

This Amendment would, as the noble Earl said, very considerably restrict the objects of the Bill. If a place of worship was held under a trust merely for the purposes of worship and for nothing else, it would not, if this Amendment were inserted, come under the terms of this Bill. It would be necessary that under the terms of the trust it should be held for the purposes of a place of public worship and for some other purpose as well. I would therefore suggest, as a compromise, that the words "or for purposes connected therewith "should be omitted altogether.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I wish to acknowledge the way in which the noble Earl has met me and to reciprocate as far as I can. I admit that my Amendment would considerably restrict the extent of the Bill, and I am quite ready to accept the noble Earl's suggestion that I should withdraw it, and I move to leave out the words "or for purposes connected therewith."

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 7, leave out ("or for purposes connected therewith").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

The next is a drafting Amendment to substitute the words "have the right" for the words "be entitled" in subsection (1).

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 13, leave out ("be entitled") and insert ("have the right").—(Earl Beauchamp.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

I move to insert, at the end of paragraph (b) of subsection (1), the words "or where the trusts upon which the premises are held include the use of the premises for the purposes of any trade or business or for any purposes of a political character." Your Lordships will probably remember that we had a discussion in Committee on this point, and I promised to try and meet the views of noble Lords opposite and prevent the use of this Bill for buildings which were chiefly used for commercial or political purposes. That is the object of my Amendment, and I hope your Lordships will consider that I have been able to meet the point in accordance with your wishes.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 25, after ("thereto") insert ("or where the trusts upon which the premises are held include the use of the premises for the purposes of any trade or business or for any purposes of a political character").—(Earl Beauchamp.)

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I have no objection to the Amendment, but. I would ask the noble Earl whether, instead of the word "include," he would substitute the words "would allow." No doubt trusts in future will be so made as to meet this Bill, but I am speaking of trusts which now exist. A great many trusts do not specifically mention the use of the premises for purposes of trade, and I think it is not unfair to ask that the noble Earl should amend his Amendment by assenting to leave out the word "include" and insert the words "would allow."

EARL BEAUCHAMP

I am always chary of accepting Amendments which I have not had full opportunity of considering beforehand. I would therefore suggest that the noble Earl should put down his suggested Amendment for Third Reading, and in the meantime I will consider it.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

I will put the Amendment down for Third Reading.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

I move to delete from subsection (2) the words "the unexpired residue of any term originally created for a period," and to insert "a term of years where the term as originally created was a term." This is really not an Amendment of substance, but a drafting Amendment intended to improve the language of the Bill.

Amendment moved— Page 2, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("the unexpired residue of any term originally created for a period") and insert ("a term of years where the term as originally created was a term").—(Earl Beauchamp.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2:

Procedure for acquisition of reversionary interests. 8 & 9 Vict. c. 20.

2. For the purpose of acquiring such reversionary interests as aforesaid the Lands Clauses Acts shall apply as if the trustees had been authorised to acquire the premises by a special Act incorporating the Lands Clauses Acts and sections seventy-seven to eighty-five of the Railways Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845, subject, however, to the modifications set out in the schedule to this Act, and to the following modifications:—

  1. (a) All questions of disputed compensation shall be settled by a single arbitrator to be appointed, in default of agreement, by the county court, whose remuneration shall be fixed by the county court, and who shall be deemed to be an arbitrator within the meaning of the Lands Clauses Acts, and the provisions of those Acts with respect to arbitration shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, apply accordingly:
  2. (b) The consideration payable in respect of any intermediate reversion may, at the option of the person entitled to such reversion, be an annual rentcharge for a term corresponding to the unexpired residue of the term of the reversion:
  3. (c) In determining the amount of any compensation the value of any buildings erected by the trustees, or improvements made by them, shall be excluded:
  4. (d) No allowance shall be made on account of the acquisition being compulsory.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN formally moved several Amendments, the effect of which was to make paragraph (a) run as follows— (a) All questions of disputed compensation 811.11 be settled by a single arbitrator to be appointed, in default of agreement, by the Judge of the County Court. The remuneration of such arbitrator shall be fixed by the Judge of the County Court, and the arbitrator shall be deemed to be an arbitrator within the meaning of the Lands Clauses Acts, and the provisions of those Acts with respect to arbitration shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, apply accordingly.

Amendments moved— Page 2, line 13, after ("the") insert ("Judge of the") and leave out ("whose") and insert ("The", and after ("remuneration") insert ("of such arbitrator") Page 2, line 14, after ("the") insert ("Judge" of the") and leave out ("who") and insert ("the arbitrator").—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

I move to add to Clause 2 the following new paragraph— (e) In determining the amount of compensation in any case where the rent reserved under the lease is less than the full annual value of the land, the compensation, so far as it is payable in respect of the interest of the lessor expectant on the expiration of the term of the lease, shall not be ascertained on the basis of the rent so reserved but subject always to the foregoing provisions of this section, on the estimated full value of the land at the expiration of the term of the lease. Your Lordships will no doubt remember that in Committee we had a discussion on this point, and my noble friend the Secretary of State for War was more successful than I in explaining to your Lordships the exact bearing of this point. But we concluded the discussion with a promise on our part to consider the point and bring up an Amendment on Report. Your Lordships will see that I have tried to meet the case by this Amendment. There are two different, points—the point as to the value of the land at the expiration of the lease, and the point as to the value of the lease itself and the annual rent which is paid for the lease. They are two wholly separate questions. Noble Lords opposite were afraid that by some phraseology we had used in the Bill there would be some limitation upon the value of the land at the expiration of the lease. That, however, is not so. We are anxious that the freeholder should receive the value of the land less the discount subject to the number of years before the termination of the lease. The provision in this Amendment is to secure that leaseholders who enfranchise shall not pay more for the value of the land during the expiration of the lease than they have been charged by the landlord—that is to say, where the landlord has allowed them to have the land on lease at a rent below the value, in those cases the compensation should be based on the sum of money which had been fixed by the landlord, and not on any sum which the arbitrator might suggest. That is quite separate from the other point, which is the value of the land at the expiration of the lease; and having looked into the matter I can say quite confidently that we have not the least doubt that the landlord will get full value for the land at the end of the lease, subject to the discount, which is a matter of actuarial calculation.

Amendment moved—

Page 2, line 28, after ("compulsory") insert the following new paragraph— (e) In determining the amount of compensation in any case where the rent reserved under the lease is less than the full annual value of the land, the compensation, so far as it is payable in respect of the interest, of the lessor expectant on the expiration of the term of the lease, shall not be ascertained on the basis of the rent so reserved but subject always to the foregoing provisions of this section, on the estimated full value of the land at the expiration of the term of the lease.—(Earl Beauchamp.)

VISCOUNT ST. ALDWYN

This is a very technical matter, but so far as I can judge. I think the noble Earl has very fairly met the view that was taken on this side of the House. I understand that under the Amendment the lessee has a right for the duration of the lease to any amount by which a full rent might exceed the rent actually reserved, and having that right it would not be fair to make him pay more than the capital value of the rent agreed upon by the landlord; but directly the lease expires the lessor has a right to the full value of the reversion.

VISCOUNT HALDANE

The noble Viscount has stated the law, as I understand it, with entire accuracy. We have this satisfaction, that the words which it is now proposed to insert in response to a desire to get rid of anxieties are admirably chosen words, but they express nothing that was not in the Bill as it originally stood. The words add nothing. They simply explain an element of the law, and some day or another unfortunate Judges will wonder how this clause got in here, as the whole thing is quite clear in Clause 2. But it is satisfactory that we have at last arrived at words which leave no ambiguity in anybody's mind.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Definitions.

4. In this Act, unless the context otherwise requires—

The expression "place of worship" means any church, chapel, or meeting-house used for public religious worship, and includes a burial ground, Sunday school, or minister's house attached to or used in connection with and held upon the same trusts as a place of worship:

The expression "freehold reversion" means the estate of fee simple in the premises subject to the lease held by the trustees and any lease superior thereto; and, where the premises subject to the lease consist of land of copyhold or customary tenure, includes the interest of the tenant by copy of court roll or the customary tenant subject to the lease held by the trustees and to any lease superior thereto as well as the interest of the lord of the manor:

The expression "intermediate reversion means any leasehold interest in the land (whether under a lease or underlease or under an agreement for a lease or underlease) superior to the lease held by the trustees:

The expression "the county court" means the county court for the district in which the place of worship is situate:

The expression "trustees" means the persons in whom the leasehold premises are for the time being vested for such purposes as aforesaid under any trust whether express or implied and includes their predecessors in title.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

I move, in the paragraph defining the expression "place of worship," to insert "caretaker's house." I hope your Lordships will not think that this is an unfair extension of the objects of the Bill. In many cases the caretaker's house is part of the same building, and in those circumstances it would be rather hard if the power to enfranchise the chapel did not cover the caretaker's house which was part of the chapel and shared a common wall.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 9, after ("school") insert ("care-"taker's house").—(Earl Beauchamp.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

The next Amendment is a purely drafting one in the last paragraph of the clause.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 30, leave out ("such purposes as" aforesaid") and insert ("the purposes of a place of worship").—(Earl Beauchamp.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Schedule: