Lords Sitting of 6 April 1911

VISCOUNT BANGOR.
Ordered, That the Report of the Lord Chancellor of the United Kingdom, made to the House of Lords on Wednesday last, that the right of the Viscount Bangor to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to his satisfaction, be sent to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, together with a certificate stating that such report has been made, and that the House has ordered it to be sent to the said Clerk of the Crown in Ireland.

MILITARY MANŒUVRES ACT, 1897.
His Majesty's answer to the Address of Tuesday last delivered by the Lord Steward (E. Chesterfield), and read as follows—
"I have received your Address praying that I will make the Orders in Council under the Military Manœuvres Act, 1897, the drafts of which were presented to your Lordships' House on the 7th of February last. I will comply with your advice."
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable in the case of the petition for additional Provision in the following Bill have not been complied with:
Dundee Harbour and Tay Ferries. [H.L.]
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the petition for additional Provision in the
Aberdare Urban District Council Bill. [H.L.]
ought to be dispensed with and leave given to the Committee on the Bill to insert the additional Provision.
Read, and agreed to.

SIDMOUTH GAS AND ELECTRICITY BILL. [H.L.]
Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
OYSTERMOUTH URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
Reported, with Amendments.
LUTON GAS BILL. [H.L.]
  COVENTRY CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
    FELIXSTOWE AND WALTOX WATER BILL. [H.L.]
    Reported, with Amendments.
WESTBURY ESTATE.
Petition for a Private Bill; together with a copy of the proposed Bill annexed thereto; read, and referred to two English Judges.
GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL.

  DUNDEE HARBOUR AND TAY FERRIES BILL. [H.L.]
  (Petition for additional Provision.)
  Examiner's Certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Thursday the 27th instant.

BRISTOL CORPORATION BILL.
Read 2a, and committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
LOCAL AUTHORITIES (COMBINED DRAINAGE) BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES informed the House that the Promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill: Order of the Day for the Second Reading read, and discharged: Ordered that the Bill be not further proceeded with.
CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a: Amendments made: Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
ALEXANDRA (NEWPORT AND SOUTH WALES) DOCKS AND RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN ACT (1903) AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
The Report of Amendments to be received on Wednesday the 10th of May next.

NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
MIDDLESBROUGH, STOCKTON-ON-TEES, AND THORNABY TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
GREAT YARMOUTH PORT AND HAVEN BILL. [H.L.]
KINGSTON-UPON-HULL CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
HEBBURN URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
LONDON AND SOUTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
BRISTOL CORPORATION BILL.
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; (viz.),

E. Fitzwilliam,

V. Hood,

L. Aberdare,

L. St. Levan,

L. Sanderson (Chairman);

agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Tuesday the 2nd of May next, at Eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.

SWANSEA GAS BILL. [H.L.]
STAR LIFE ASSURANCE SOCIETY BILL. [H.L.]
RHONDDA URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL. [H.L.]
DUNDEE HARBOUR AND TAY FERRIES BILL. [H.L.]
DUNDEE HARBOUR (CONSTITUTION) BILL. [H.L.]
MANCHESTER CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
CHAPEL-EN-LE-FRITH CHINLEY AND DISTRICT GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form the Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; (viz.),

E. Lytton,

E. Londesborough,

L. Silehester (E. Longford),

L. Leigh,

L. Wenlock (Chairman);

agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on
1074
Tuesday the 9th of May next, at Eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.

RIIYMNEY VAI.LEY WATER BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
MERTHYR TYDFIL CORPORATION WATER BILL. [H.L.]
AEON LWYD VALLEY SEWERAGE BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
EASTERN VALLEY OF MONMOUTHSHIRE SEWERAGE BOARD BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Committee of Selection, That the following Lords be proposed to the House to form 1 he Select Committee for the consideration of the said Bills; (viz.),

D. Northumberland (Chairman),

E. Leven and Melville,

E. Cathcart,

V. Hampden,

L. Dawnay (V. Downe);

agreed to; and the said Lords appointed accordingly: The Committee to meet on Tuesday the 9th of May next, at Eleven o'clock; and all Petitions referred to the Committee, with leave to the Petitioners praying to be heard by Counsel against the Bills to be heard as desired, as also Counsel for the Bills.

PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGH): My Lords, the Motion which stands in my name is a usual one before the adjournment of the House at this time of the year. There is no change in it from what was done last year, and I beg to move accordingly.
Moved, That Standing Orders Nos. 92 and 93 be suspended; and that the time for depositing petitions praying to be heard against Private and Provisional Order Confirmation Bills, also the time for depositing documents relating to any Order under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, which would otherwise expire during the adjournment of the House at Easter, be extended to the first day on which the Home shall sit after the Recess.—(Lord Balfour of Burleigh.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.

RIGHTS OF WAY BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Eversley.)
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (VISCOUNT HALDANE): My Lords, I have had an opportunity of giving the terms of this Bill some consideration. I think that probably your Lordships feel that the principle of the Bill is a good one, analogous as it is to the principle of the Prescription Act as applied to private rights of way, but the question is a very technical and difficult one. I have read some of your Lordships' proposed Amendments, and I own I have great sympathy with the attempts made to deal with points where it is thought injustice would be done to owners of land. On the other hand, I have read the Amendments proposed by my noble friend behind me to meet these points, but I am not sure that difficulties would not then arise in other ways. It seems to me very desirable that we should have the advantage of the assistance of the Government draftsman, and, if possible, of the Law Officers in regard to this Bill. I therefore suggest that, if your Lordships agree, the measure should be referred to a Joint Committee of the two Houses, in order that it may be thoroughly sifted and put into shape before it comes up again for the consideration of the House. There are undoubtedly points which require closer consideration than it is possible to give on an occasion like this. I am not prepared to suggest Amendments with regard to the provisions of the Bill without a good deal of consideration, and, possibly, some assistance; and if your Lordships thought fit to take the course I have suggested, I would move that the Bill should be referred to a Joint Committee of the two Houses.
LORD ASHBOURNE: My Lords, the suggestion which the noble Viscount has made seems a very reasonable and wise one. It is obvious to any one with legal attainments, or even to any one without legal attainments, who reads the Bill that it bristles with points that require consideration and possibly amendment, and therefore I think it is wiser to thresh the matter out in a Joint Committee of both Houses, where it could be thoroughly
1076
discussed. There are points raising matters of law and involving technicalities that require a good deal of examination, and it would be wise that the Bill should go to a Joint Committee.
LORD EVERSLEY: My Lords, I need hardly say that the course proposed by His Majesty's Government is an agreeable one to me. I recognise the great difficulty of arguing the technical points that arise on this Bill in Committee of the whole House, and it seems to me that the subject would be better ventilated by the reference of the Bill to a Joint Committee of both Houses. The course proposed would, in my opinion, be favourable to the passing of the Bill; for if it is agreed to by a Joint Committee, in all probability there would be no difficulty in passing it through both Houses of Parliament.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, having put down several Amendments to this Bill, I should like to say that I have no objection to the course proposed by the noble Viscount, provided that I have not to serve on the Joint Committee. But I take this opportunity of stating that the Amendments which stand in my name were not put down with any hostile intention, and that I have no hostile feeling whatever against the principle of the Bill. I say this because I should not like the impression to be conveyed by the Motion of the noble Viscount that this House is in any way hostile to the principle of the Bill.
LORD ALVERSTONE: My Lords, I did not intrude when this Bill was read a second time, although considerable reference was made by the noble Lord in charge of the Bill to a judgment that I had given in an important case—the case of the Duke of Sutherland—which to a certain extent gave rise to the necessity for this Bill. I think the noble Lord was rather in error in certain references he made to the other decision of Mr. Justice Chitty. But I have only risen to concur in the course suggested—namely, that the Bill should be referred to a Joint Committee—and to point out that whatever view be adopted with regard to some of these Amendments they will inevitably necessitate consequential Amendments at later stages. Therefore I think it is necessary that there should be expert assistance in dealing with the wording of the Bill.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, as several Amendments stand in my name I should like to say that I, too, concur in the course which it is proposed to take. I am sure any one of your Lordships who has read the Bill or tried to amend it must be well aware that its drafting is by no means perfect. One thing, at all events, is quite certain—that there have been a good many cooks employed on this Bill; and some of those cooks, I would say from the result of their work, were not legal cooks. However that may be, I wish to say that I have no objection whatever to the suggested course with regard to this Bill. In fact I quite agree with those who have spoken, that t he best course is to refer this Bill to a Joint Committee of the two Houses. With regard to the clause which I propose to omit, I mentioned this matter on the Second Reading, and the Lord Chancellor suggested that it would be better to deal with the Scottish law as to rights of way, which is entirely different from the English law, in a separate Bill. That was a hint which I thought a very good one, and perhaps the Joint Committee may see fit to deal with the point in the way the noble and learned Lord suggested. But because noble Lords from Scotland disapprove of dealing with this question as it affects Scotland in a single clause tacked on to a Bill which relates to an entirely different law of rights of way, it must not be supposed that for that reason we are in any way hostile to the object of this Bill; and if we had gone into Committee to-day I should have been able to show that not one of my Amendments was prompted by any desire to wreck the Bill.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (LORD LOREBURN): My Lords, what the noble Earl has said is perfectly true with this exception, that when I said there ought to be separate treatment of Scotland I did not mean to convey that there ought to he a separate Bill. The whole House, I am quite satisfied, is desirous of carrying out the principle underlying this Bill. I conceived that all through the Second Reading debate; and I hope that the result of the step which my noble friend Lord Haldane has suggested will be that we shall get an agreed Bill and one which will pass as an agreed Bill through both Houses of Parliament without unnecessary delay. I think that would be a most gratifying course to the noble Lord who
1078
has introduced this Bill, and whose persistent efforts on behalf of the public in this cause will, I think, be acknowledged by all.
Amendment moved—
To leave out from ("That") to the end of the Motion, and insert ("it is desirable that the Bill be referred to a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament.")—(Viscount Haldane.)
On Question, Amendment agreed to; Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Commons to communicate this Resolution, and to desire their concurrence.

THE BAGHDAD RAILWAY.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government whether they are able to state the nature of the compensation which the Baghdad Railway Company is entitled to obtain from the Turkish Government on account of the renunciation of the right to construct the section of the line from Baghdad to the Persian Gulf. I put this Question on the Paper in consequence of an answer which I observed was given by Sir Edward Grey in another place on March 23. In reply to a Question with regard to the Baghdad Railway, the Foreign Secretary said—
"An agreement between the Turkish Government and the Begin lad Company on ibis subject was signed on the 21st inst. It provides for the renunciation by the company of the right to build the section of the line from Baghdad to the Persian Gulf, and to construct a port at Basra, in favour of a new Turkish company, on condition that no Power except Turkey shall have a share in. the new company greater than that of the Baghdad Railway Company, and that the latter shall have the right to demand from the new company or from, the Turkish Government compensation on account of the above renunciation. The Baghdad Railway Company are also to construct a port at Alexandretta and to build a branch line from there to Osmanieh on the main line, without a kilometric guarantee."
I submit that the wording of the answer also implies that some further compensation is contemplated to the Baghdad Railway of which at present we are ignorant. I believe that the Foreign Office is to lay Papers shortly on the subject, and I hope, nevertheless, it may not be the case that the noble Viscount opposite may decline to answer my Question on this ground.
I cannot resist taking the opportunity of pointing out what an extraordinarily favourable position is now enjoyed in Asia Minor by the Baghdad Railway

1079
Company—in other words, by the German Government—justifying the boast of the official organ of the German Foreign Office that "With pride we are able to look upon a new monument of German work, German application, and the German spirit of enterprise." What is the position? The Baghdad Railway Company have now obtained agreements to construct a railway from Konia to the Gulf, although, as we also know, they have abandoned the right to construct the final section. On the Konia-Bulgurlu section, which only amounts to something like 125 miles in length, the Company, I understand, have made up to now a profit reaching something like £800,000, and that profit could only come out of kilometric guarantees and construction guarantees, because the country which it traverses, as I know from my own experience—unless it has considerably changed in the last few years—is little better than a howling desert. In addition to that, they have obtained the immensely valuable concession of making the line from Alexandretta to Osmanieh, a concession so valuable that they are not even insisting upon the kilometric guarantee. They have also obtained the right virtually to turn Alexandretta into a German port; and that, I may point out, may have the effect of entirely altering the commercial future of the railway. I would also point out that under the terms of this new agreement there is no prospect of the Turkish Government ever recovering possession of the Port of Alexandretta, because they will be precluded from doing so unless they acquire at the same time the Taurus section, which as everybody knows is an extremely unprofitable one and would cost an enormous amount of money to make. In addition to that they have, so far as we know, come to an arrangement with the Russian Government by which German trade is going to find its way into Persia viii Khanikin to the prejudice of this country.
What, I would like to ask, does this so-called renunciation amount to? They apparently are making a great parade of having renounced the final section from Baghdad to the Gulf. All who have expressed an opinion on this subject are united in the view that in no circumstances is this particular section likely to be of any commercial value whatever. It may have a considerable amount of political value, but it has no commercial value whatsoever.
1080
Where, therefore, does the question of renunciation come in? If they were renouncing something that was going to be commercially profitable, they would clearly be entitled to compensation; but as there is no question of deriving any advantage from this section, commercially or economically, there does not seem any obvious reason why any compensation should be awarded.
This so-called renunciation merely amounts to this, that it is practically a stipulation that no country with the exception of Turkey is to hold a larger share in the undertaking than the Baghdad Railway Company, or, in other words, the German Government. I understand that the proposal is that the shares should be apportioned as follow:—The Turkish Government, 40 per cent.; Germany, 20 per cent.; France, 20 per cent.; and ourselves, 20 per cent. Everybody knows that such commerce as there is in those parts is entirely our own. We are infinitely more affected than anybody else, and it appears to me on the face of it that our interests are not safeguarded by the share of 20 per cent., which will enable us to be outvoted whenever it is necessary to do so. In these circumstances I venture to express the opinion that I am entitled to ask the Question standing in my name, and I hope the noble Viscount will be able to give us a reassuring answer.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN): My Lords, I do not at all complain of the noble Lord for drawing the attention of the House to this most important topic. He has made a number of very interesting observations, but he has left out of account, if he will allow me to say so, the cardinal fact that this is Turkish territory, that the Turkish Government is a sovereign Government, and that they may make arrangements with the German concessionaires or others—subject, of course, to diplomatic action on our part or on the part of France or any other Power—to make whatever arrangements may seem to them to be to their general advantage or to the advantage of European or Eastern trade. The noble Lord, I think, overlooks, or dangerously minimises, the fact that the Turkish Government is really the master of its own territory. We had an interesting debate on this matter on the occasion of Lord Curzon's Motion

1081
about a fortnight ago, and it was then my duty to inform the House of the position in which the various issues concerned stood at that moment. Since then negotiations have been proceeding between Turkey and the concessionaires.
As to compensation, the nature of the compensation would naturally be the subject of agreement—not between us and the German concessionaires, but between the German Company and the Ottoman Government. It appears to be taken for granted by the noble Lord also that the construction of the section of the railway between Konia and Baghdad is likely, according to expert opinion, partly for the reasons that the noble Lord has indicated, to cost proportionately more than the section between Baghdad and the Gulf. The Baghdad Railway Company, as I understand, have therefore reserved the right to claim, either from the Ottoman Government or from the new company which, as the noble Lord is aware, the Ottoman Government is about to form to construct and work the section between Baghdad and the Gulf, the right to pecuniary compensation for their renunciation of their conceded rights over this particular section. I do not think—and the noble Lord, if he thinks about it, will agree—that anything is to be gained by further discussion at this, we might almost call it the initial, stage of the discussions between the Ottoman Government and the Baghdad Railway Company, on the one hand, and between the Ottoman Government and His Majesty's Government on the other hand. Very important steps are being taken in the way of discussion, but at this stage, things being what they are in both these aspects, I am afraid I can only say that nothing would be gained by any further discussion.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Your Lordships have listened with interest to the further contribution which the noble Viscount has made to public enlightenment on this difficult subject, but I am not sure that my noble friend will think that he has obtained very much light from the answer. We understand that Papers are to be laid. How soon, may I ask, does the noble Viscount think that Papers will be laid?
VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN: I understand they are being prepared with all expedition.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: That may mean a great deal or not very much. I know they have to be prepared with great care and that a great number of consents have to be obtained, and I do not complain because His Majesty's Government are taking proper time to prepare them. But I was a little surprised by one observation of the noble Viscount. He said that the negotiations were only in their initial stage. I think that any of your Lordships who listened to the debate the other night would have thought, from the attitude the Government took up then, that they were very near absolute completion. I am rather glad to hear that they have only reached the initial stage.
VISCOUNT MORLE Y OF BLACKBURN: I was very careful to use the words "hopeful and of good promise," which are words characteristic of an initial stage.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I should have hoped that they were characteristic of all stages of a negotiation. I do not in the least quarrel with the noble Viscount, and I was not trying for a moment to convict him of inconsistency. He was speaking with a great sense of responsibility on both occasions, and from the necessarily not very precise language he was able to use I gathered a wrong impression; but I thought, and I believe a great number of your Lordships thought, that matters had reached a very forward position. I am glad to hear that the negotiations are only in their initial stage, for I am bound to say that my impression has been that on this particular matter the British Government is not going to make a specially good bargain. I may be right, or I may be wrong, but I should be glad if His Majesty's Government would realise that if they make what is not a very good bargain that bargain will be subject to a great deal of criticism hereafter.
It appears to me that His Majesty's Government are not going to make a very good bargain because I gathered from the speech of the noble Viscount ten days ago that the effect of the new arrangement is that over the greater part of what is known as the Baghdad Railway the British Government will occupy a very inferior position, if, indeed, it occupies any position at all. As regards the Gulf section, the last section of the line to which my noble friend Lord Newton referred, although the British

1083
Government will occupy a definite position, it will still be an inferior position. Considering the history of this subject, and the great part which Great Britain has played in the affairs of Turkey and in the solution of these different points of policy, it is a matter of some surprise that we should occupy so inferior a position as the result of this bargain. I do not grudge Germany her success. I think it is very important that every country should have an opportunity of furthering its own interests and its own objects of policy. It is important for Germany to have such an opportunity, for I cannot help thinking that the German Government think they have not been well used in the past, and that by the fortunes of diplomacy they have not had such fine opportunties as other countries have had. If the result of the policy of His Majesty's Government is to remove that feeling, it may be of great public advantage. But as to how that matter may stand we must reserve judgment until we see the Papers. From the hint which had been given we were under the impression that we were not going to make, so far as this country is concerned, a good bargain; but if the matter is still in the initial stage there may be an opportunity of revising it a little in our favour.
The noble Viscount said, in answer to my noble friend Lord Newton, that he (Lord Newton) seemed to forget that this territory belonged to Turkey, and that Turkey is a sovereign Power and has control over her own territories. That is, of course, a perfectly true observation up to a certain point. Everybody knows, however, that owing to her financial circumstances Turkey is not entirely mistress in her own house, and has not been mistress in her own house ever since any of us can remember. She has, owing to misfortune or misgovernment, or both, lost complete control of her own affairs. She has lost it because she has been bankrupt, and therefore has been unable to pay her way. Consequently, all the great Powers in Europe have, and ought to have, a certain control over her policy, and that control takes the form of a power to prevent her raising her Customs Duties—that is to say, to prevent her having complete control over her own revenue and the method of raising it. It is all very well to say that the territory belongs to Turkey, but the financial control of Turkey is not her own but is largely vested in the Powers; and I submit that we are bound to use the power we possess;
1084
and that it is not an answer to a question whether British interests are safeguarded to tell us that this is Turkish territory and that Turkey is an independent sovereign State. I will not say more, except express my sorrow on behalf of my noble friend that he has not been able to obtain more clear information from His Majesty's Government. We shall await the promised Papers with interest.
LORD NEWTON: My Lords, unless I misunderstood the noble Viscount, the Baghdad Railway Company, otherwise the German Government, are going to obtain, in addition to other advantages, pecuniary compensation for not making a line which under no circumstances would be commercially popular. That may be an instance of the extremely practical nature of German diplomacy, but I do not think it redounds greatly to its morality, and I cannot conceive the British Government being successful in a similar attempt.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN: My Lords, I have now to ask your Lordships' attention to a circumstance which I am sure will be regretted in all parts of the House. It is that Lord Onslow, who has so long and with so much satisfaction to everybody concerned discharged the duties of Lord Chairman, has now come to the conclusion that he cannot resume the duties of that post after Easter. When my noble friend the Leader of the House moved that Lord Balfour of Burleigh should take the Chair during Lord Onslow's absence, I think we all understood that Lord Balfour did not contemplate continuing the occupancy of the Chair much beyond Easter. But at all events what may happen later may be left open. I now move that Lord Balfour be appointed to take the Chair in all Committees of this House from Easter until further order. That will give a little time to consider what would be the best course to take.
Moved, That the Lord Balfour be appointed to take the Chair in all Committees of this House from Easter until further order.—(Viscount Morley of Blackburn.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, though I have no right to speak for

1085
my noble friends around me I do not suppose that there will be slightest objection to this Motion. W., are all deeply grateful to Lord Balfour for the assistance which he always gives us on these occasions. I understand from the noble Viscount that this is only a temporary arrangement until some other arrangement can be come to, and when a more permanent appointment comes under discussion a more important person than myself will occupy a seat on this Bench. I cordially assent to the present Motion.
VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN: I ought to have added that I had the advantage of consulting Lord Lansdowne upon this Motion before he left the House.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

INDIANS IN SOUTH AFRICA.
LORD AMPTHILLLords, I rise to ask the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies—

1. Whether the Immigration Bill recently introduced into the Parliament of the Union of South Africa had previously been approved of by His Majesty's Government, and whether the measure referred to imposes or may impose any disabilities upon the British Indians lawfully domiciled in the Cape and Natal provinces, from which they were free under the Immigration Laws of these States which are repealed by the new Bill.

2. Whether the Immigration Laws of the Cape and Natal repealed or about to be repealed by the new Immigration Law of the South African Union Parliament exempted domiciled British Indian residents, their wives and children, from the tests imposed upon fresh immigrants; and whether it is a fact that under the new law such people, once they are out of the Union may be prevented returning if they fail to pass any education test the Immigration Officer chooses to apply to them.

My noble friend the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies, whom I venture to congratulate on his translation to a new and no less important, and, I hope, equally congenial, sphere of public service, has
1086
kindly promised to answer my Questions at short notice, and therefore I shall not extend them by any comment. I merely ask the noble Lord to kindly answer the Questions as they stand on the Paper.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (LORD LUCAS): My Lords, the Bill, as is shown by the Parliamentary Paper Cd. 5579, was submitted to His Majesty's Government in draft. Various Amendments were suggested, subject to which His Majesty's Government have accepted the Bill as redressing the grievances of the Indian community with regard to immigration, to which Lord Crewe's despatch of October 7 was particulary directed. Since the Parliamentary Paper was published the Minister of the Interior has given notice of an addition to Clause 5 of the Bill for the purpose of clearly securing the rights of domiciled Indians, their wives and children. Clause 25, section 2, of the Bill makes it possible for any person lawfully resident in the country who wishes to leave it for a time to obtain a permit ensuring that he will be readmitted on his return, and if he has omitted to obtain this permit the addition to Clause 5 provides for readmission if domiciled without any educational test.

THRIFT AND CREDIT BANKS.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY rose to call attention to the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Lords on the Thrift and Credit Banks Bill; and to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether His Majesty's Government have an early intention of introducing legislation dealing with the questions raised in that Report.
The noble Earl said: Your Lordships will remember that last year a Thrift and Credit Banks Bill was introduced into your Lordships' House, and, by common consent, was referred to a Select Committee. That Committee made an exhaustive inquiry into the subject and issued what I hope will be a Report of some value. I am anxious that the matter should not be lost sight of, and therefore beg to ask the Question standing in my name.
THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (EARL BEAUCHAMP): My Lords, my noble friend the President of the Board

1087
of Agriculture regrets that he has been called away by an old and important engagement, and has asked me to answer the Question on his behalf. The matter of rural credit has been receiving the attention of His Majesty's Government for some months most but owing to the regrettable Mess of one of the Parliamentary draftsmen it has not been possible to lay the Bill on the Table of the House, but my noble friend hopes to do so at an early date after Easter.
THE EARL OF CROMER: My Lords, this is certainly not the occasion to go fully into this question, but I should like to remind your Lordships that Lord Dunmore has a Bill down for discussion early in May which deals with small ownership. The subjects are distinct though they are intimately connected, and I think it would facilitate discussion and the formation of opinion if His Majesty's Government would let us know what their intentions are about the noble Earl's measure before Lord Dunmore's Bill is taken.

BOARD OF EDUCATION SCHEME (ALNWICK CORPORATION PAYMENT) CONFIRMATION BILL. [H.L.]
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read, and discharged.
SALES FOR AGRICULTURAL PURPOSES BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to amend the law with respect to the sale of fertilizers, feeding stuffs, dips, seeds, and other articles sold for agricultural purposes—Was presented by the Lord Clinton; read la; and to be printed. (No. 48.)

THE EASTER ADJOURNMENT.
VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do adjourn until April 26.
Moved, That the House do adjourn until April 26.—(Viscount Morley of Blackburn.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: On that Motion I should like to ask the noble Viscount, for the convenience of your Lordships, what business the Government propose to take on the reassembly of the House.
VISCOUNT MORLEY OF BLACKBURN: I understand that the first business will be the Army Annual Bill. Beyond that I am afraid I cannot answer the noble Marquess.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Then I might, perhaps, be allowed to put a question to the Secretary of State for War. It has reached me privately that the suggestion of the Government is to pass the Army Annual Bill through all its stages as quickly as possible. But if there are any novelties in the Bill we should have to consider whether we could pass it through so rapidly as proposed.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: There is only one novel proposal in the Bill, and that is about horses. I made some reference in another place to what those proposals would be, and legislation is required. This one new clause will no doubt interest your Lordships, and it is right that you should have full opportunity of considering it. We might, if it were thought well. take the Second Reading on the first day after the Easter adjournment, and then I could make a statement fully explaining the who matter so that we could go into Committee after we had had a discussion of that statement. There is, as I have said, only one new point in the Bill, and it concerns horses. I would remind your Lordship that the Bill must pass into law by April 30, otherwise the Army becomes an illegal body, and the Bill has to receive the Royal Assent before that date. I think there will be ample time to arrange matters, and the noble Marquess may take it that we should desire to meet the wishes of noble Lords opposite as to the best use of the time at our disposal.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am much obliged to the noble Viscount. None of my noble friends particularly interested in this matter are in the House at the moment, but if there should be any reason for asking the noble Viscount to, give us one day between two of the stage perhaps he will allow us to communicate with him privately.
VISCOUNT HALDANE: Certainly.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, to Wednesday, the 26th instant, a quarter past Four o'clock.