PAYMENT OF RATES BY INSTALMENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.] (Hansard, 17 November 1910)

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
My Lords, those of your Lordships who take an interest in Scottish questions may remember that in July last I introduced into this House, and your Lordships were good enough to give it a Second Reading, a Bill called the Small Dwelling-houses in Burghs Letting (Scotland) Bill. That Bill contained and was limited to certain conditions in connection with the letting and the hiring of small houses. The term "small dwelling-house" was construed in the Bill, but I may observe that the small letting house as defined by the Bill in some cases rose to be a dwelling-house paying a rent up to £21. I took the opportunity on that occasion to point out to your Lordships that it would be desirable, and indeed necessary, to introduce another Bill legalising the collection of the rates at shorter periods than were allowed by the law at the existing time. I then said that the arrangements in connection with that matter were not finally complete, and that I would bring the Bill before this House in a separate form, and I undertook that I would not press the Small Dwelling-houses Letting Bill until I had introduced the other measure. This Bill, the Second Reading of which I am moving this evening, is the performance of my promise.
This Bill deals with the collection of rates and with the collection of rates only, except in one very small instance which I will mention to your Lordships presently, as distinct from a system of rates. It does not in any way institute a system of rates, but it alters the mode and the times at which rates may be collected. I am very anxious not to lose your Lordships' time, but I think I may now go through the clauses of the Bill in detail. The Bill authorises town councils and parish councils of burghal parishes to collect rates by instalments. If your Lordships will take Clause 1, you will see that the Bill is permissive. The clause provides that any council may, by resolution passed net later than May 15 in any year, determine that the rates shall be payable by the person or persons liable therefor by instalments. It then proceeds to say that the dates on 709 which the instalments are to be payable shall be specified in the resolution, and that the resolution is to be published twice in one or more newspapers circulating in the district. Clause 2 says that when a council has passed such a resolution, all powers, rights, and remedies of the council and its officers for levying and recovering the rates shall apply to every instalment thereof.
Then in Clause 3—and this is the infinitesimal way in winch rates are interfered with—it is provided that any instalment of rates made payable by any such resolution upon a date occurring after May 15 in any year and before the date of imposing the rates of the year front and after the said 15th day of May shall be calculated on the basis of the corresponding rate of the year before. That is to meet a. very simple case, where a house is let within three months after the resolution has been adopted and before the date for imposing the new rate conies into force, which is, I think, a day in August. Then in Clause 4 there is a provision that every occupier of a small dwelling-house shall be liable for the instalments corresponding to the period of his actual Occupancy thereof. That limits the present law, because at the present time the occupier on the assessment roll is liable for the payment of the whole year's rate whether he is in occupation or not. Then in Clause 5 it is provided that the owner is to intimate to the assessor every notice of removal which is given or received by him, and the assessor, upon that, has to amend his assessment roll and take such action as may be necessary to obtain payment of rates. The sixth and last clause says that when any instalment which is recovered relates to more than one rate the amount that is recovered shall be applied rateably. In the interpretation clause the expression small dwelling-house "is defined as having the meaning which is assigned to it in the Small Dwelling-houses in Burghs Letting (Scotland) Act., 1910. I think I have told your Lordships all that there is in the Bill.
It may now be desirable that I should point out what is not in the Bill, and what the Bill does not deal with. As I said when I commenced my remarks, this Bill applies to the collection of rates as distinct and separate from a. system of rates. What this Bill does not do is this—it does not alter the system of rating, and, moreover, 710 the Bill does not alter the Parliamentary or municipal franchise, as would have been clone by a Bill introduced by the Government last year. That Bill contained a provision which the Government themselves did not originally contemplate, but Which was introduced at the instance of a Labour Member. That provision had nothing whatsoever to do with the purpose of the Bill, which was the letting of small dwelling-houses, but it indirectly affected and altered both the Parliamentary and municipal franchise. I need not repeat what I then said, that if it is desirable to do that it ought to be done by a separate and clear Bill, and not indirectly by words slipped into a Bill which professedly relates to the letting of small dwelling-houses.
One word more, and one word only, with regard to the Bill now before your Lordships. This Bill has been considered by the Convention of Royal Burghs, and I presented yesterday a petition from that important body in favour of the Bill. The Convention stated that this Bill if passed into law— will confer a great benefit on occupiers of small dwelling-houses in Scottish burghs and on the Scottish burghal rating authorities. That is the expression of a body of men who, of course, have a very great interest in, and a very great knowledge of, rating, in burghs in Scotland. Let ale say a word with regard to another important body connected with small houses in Scotland. I refer to house owners and house factors. I have taken means. of ascertaining the opinion of the house owners and house factors of Glasgow, and it is really the City of Glasgow which is more interested in this question of small house letting in Scotland than any other body. The house owners and house factors of Scotland have no objection to this Bill itself. They would have liked to see something inserted which is not in the Bill, and which I regret to say I cannot put into it. What they would have liked to see inserted would have been a clause repealing Sections 345 and 346 of the Burghs Police Act of 1892, which leave it open to the municipal authorities of any burgh which adopts those clauses to transfer from the occupiers to the owners the payment of certain rates. I do not say whether this would or would not he desirable, but I did not think it right—and I do not think that this House would approve of such a course—to repeal in it Bill of this sort powers which have been given to a muni- 711 cipal authority. I think I have stated everything which it is necessary that I should tell your Lordships, and I would simply move that the Bill be now read a second time. Your Lordships will see that, from my point of view, you have the whole of this question before you. It is contained in these two Bills, and the one Bill has reference to the other.

§ THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (LORD PENTLAND)
My Lords, it would hardly be appropriate, your Lordships would probably think, that I should discuss at length the propositions which the noble Earl has just laid before you. This is another stage in a somewhat prolonged discussion which, by your Lordships' indulgence, took place last. year on the occasion of the Government Bill dealing with this subject being laid before this House. The noble Earl has, in redeeming his promise to lay his second Bill before the House, completed his scheme, but it is hardly possible, I think, for your Lordships to consider the whole scheme while considering the Second Reading of this particular Bill. The Government scheme does seem to me preferable—that your Lordships should see in one Bill the whole scheme of legislation which is to be applied to this particular question. The noble Earl does not put this Bill forward on its merits. He puts it forward as a part of this larger scheme.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
I beg the noble Lord's pardon. I do put it forward on its merits.

§ LORD PENTLAND
There is something, no doubt, to be said. for a more frequent payment of rates, especially in the case of working men, who do find the payment of rates annually in one sum an onerous obligation. It would be convenient to them to pay their rates more frequently in many cases; but, as I ventured to suggest just now, while the noble Earl puts this forward on its merits, it is not possible for your Lordships to consider it on its merits. It can only be considered with relation to the rest of the noble Earl's scheme, and when I come to so consider it I find it altogether wanting. It is more than doubtful whether it would meet his purpose. It is more than doubtful whether it would 712 succeed in coupling satisfactorily to a system of short lets of working-class houses in Scotland a new system of more frequent collection of rates. The Government put forward their own scheme, and I am always reminded of it when the noble Earl mentions to the House how many voluntary associations and other bodies are in favour of his proposals. He mentioned the Convention of Royal Burghs and other voluntary associations whom I have no doubt at great pains lie has consulted on this question.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
I did not consult them at all. They considered the matter themselves.

§ LORD PENTLAND
I gathered that it was in harmony with advice from various directions that the noble Earl had produced his scheme. If that is not so, it completely accounts for the noble Earl's entire failure to meet public opinion in this matter in Scotland. His Bills do provide a complete scheme, but, so far as I am able to ascertain—and I have made every effort to ascertain it—public opinion in Scotland does not lend the slightest real support to the noble Earl's solution of this question. The scheme proposed by the Government last year came up to your Lordships' House, not only on the first occasion but on subsequent occasions, with the almost unanimous support of the representatives of public opinion in another place from Scotland, and it will always be to me a great regret that your Lordships did not see fit to adopt the Government's solution of this question. It is obvious that nothing will be gained by dividing against this Bill, so I will content myself with registering on the part of the Government their opinion that it does not provide a workable solution of this question.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
If no other noble Lord wishes to address the House, perhaps I may be allowed a word in reply. The noble Lord said that I had communicated with these bodies—

§ LORD PENTLAND
I hope the noble Earl will allow me to withdraw any suggestion of that kind if it was conveyed by my words.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
Very well. I presented to your Lordships a petition which was drawn up, at their own 713 instance, by the Convention of Royal Burghs, which, after all, I think the noble Lord will admit surely ought to have some right to speak on behalf of the burghs in Scotland. Discussions have taken place, and I saw that a discussion took place in the Parliamentary Committee of the municipality of Dundee, and that Committee thought this was a good and workable proposal. On the other hand, the noble Lord tells us that he has taken great pains to ascertain what is public opinion in Scotland, and that he has satisfied himself that public opinion is dead against this Bill. I wish the noble Lord would give us some indication as to how he has got at this public opinion. That is a form of argument which the noble Lord very frequently adopts. He says "I know the facts"; but he does not tell us what the facts are, or the sources from which he derives his facts. I have presented this scheme. The noble Lord says it is a bad scheme. At all events, he has said nothing to show why it is a bad scheme; and as the noble Lord does not think it necessary to say anything more or to give us any definite information, I must certainly ask your Lordships to give the Bill a Second Reading.