Lords Sitting of 8 March 1910

Preamble
THE LORD BISHOP OF MANCHESTER THE LORD BISHOP OF MANCHESTER—Took the Oath.
WARDENS DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
Petition of Robert Scholefield praying that substituted service of a copy of the Bill, together with notice of the Second Reading thereof, and all other notices or orders connected therewith may be made upon Mr. Edward White, Solicitor, of 16, Molesworth Street, Dublin: Considered (according to order): Counsel called in: A witness examined: Ordered that service of a copy of the Bill and of the Order for the Second Reading thereof upon the said Mr. Edward White be deemed as good service of the said Bill and Order as if the same had been personally served upon Kenneth Evers Warden: The usual Orders made.

COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent—
Treasury (Temporary Borrowing).
War Loan (Redemption).
Several Lords Several Lords—Took the Oath.

STANDARD LIFE ASSURANCE COMPANY BILL. [H.L.]
Presented, read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Ammanford Gas. [H.L.]
South Lincolnshire Water, [H.L.]
Gas Companies (Standard Burner) (No. 1). [H.L.]
Gas Companies (Standard Burner) (No. 2). [H.L.]
Gas Companies (Standard Burner) (No. 3). [H.L.]
Wicklow Gas. [H.L.]
Gowerton Gas. [H.L.]
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

BRIDLINGTON PIERS AND HARBOUR.
Order of Thursday last for the printing of the abstract of the Annual General Account, discharged.
WATER SUPPLIES PROTECTION BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to determine the eights and liabilities of persons supplying water under the authority of Parliament in certain cases—Was presented by the Lord Desborough; read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 10.)

PUBLIC SERVICES OF PEERS.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: My Lords, I should not have troubled your Lordships with any observations upon the Return for which I beg to move if it had not been that I am afraid I must give some explanation to noble Lords opposite, though that explanation would not be required by noble Lords who sit on this side of the House. Noble Lords opposite will remember that a Committee, moved for by the noble Earl who usually sits upon the Cross Benches, Lord Rosebery, was appointed, and that they declined to take any part in it. Their intention, though it was not so at that time, is now more concentrated on the emasculation than on the reform of your Lordships' House. Therefore I may, perhaps, explain to noble Lords opposite that a Return analogous to if not identical with the one for which I am now moving, was prepared for the purpose of that Committee, and it occurred to me that it would be useful if that Return were brought up to date, reprinted, and placed in the hands of your Lordships before you proceed to discuss the Motion of which Lord Rosebery has given notice for Monday. No doubt I might have added many other categories of public service rendered by members of your Lordships' House, but I purposely refrained from doing so, because I wanted to confine it as closely as possible, while bringing it up to date, to the Return which was prepared by one of the officials of the House with great care and ability for the confidential use of the Committee. I notice that since my Motion was placed on the Paper a Motion has been put down for a further Return. I do not know whether the noble Lord in whose name that Motion stands intends to proceed with it, but I venture to hope that most of the information which he seeks will be found in the

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Return for which I have asked. I hope your Lordships will agree to this Return on the ground that it will furnish a good deal of information which at present can only be obtained at considerable labour, and perhaps not then quite correctly, by individual members of your Lordships' House. I beg to move.

High Judicial Office, within the meaning of the Appellate Jurisdiction Acts, 1876 and 1887.

The Office of Cabinet Minister, Head (not being a permanent Civil Servant) of any other Government Department, or Speaker of the House of Commons.

The Office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Viceroy of India, Governor-General of the Dominion of Canada, Governor-General of the Commonwealth of Australia, or Governor-General of the Union of South Africa.

The Office of High Commissioner of South Africa, Governor of the Presidency of Madras or Bombay, Lieu-tenant-Governor of any Province in India, or Governor of any Dominion or Colony.

The Office of Parliamentary Under-Secretary, Parliamentary Secretary, or permanent Under-Secretary in any Government Department, or Lord of the Treasury, or Civil Lord of the Admiralty.

The Office of Minister or any Higher Office in His Majesty' Diplomatic Service.

(b) Who are Privy Councillors;
(c) Who have been elected to sit in the House of Commons before becoming members of the House of Lords;
(d) Who have attained the rank of Vice-Admiral in the Royal Navy or of Lieutenant-General in the Army.
2. Showing the total number of Peers at various dates between the years 1765 and 1909.
3. Showing the number and rank of the members of the House of Lords, and also of the Peers of Scotland and the Peers of Ireland at the present time.
Moved, That there be laid before the House a Return—
1. Showing the number of Temporal Peers now sitting in Parliament;

(a) Who hold or have held any of the following offices, viz.:—

4. Showing the number of Temporal Peers who (1) did not attend at all, or (2) attended less than ten times in the Sessions of 1902, 1906, and 1909.—(The Earl of Onslow.)
THE EARL OF CROMER: My Lords, I should like to make a few remarks on one point of detail. I quite understand that in view of the pressure of time it is not possible now to alter this Return, but at the same time I think the public should understand that the Return is in itself defective. To begin with, it is purely official. It only records the names of those members of your Lordships' House who have been in the service of the Crown,

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and even there Lords-Lieutenant of counties are omitted. Moreover, a considerable number of members of your Lordships' House have occupied positions, which, though not in the service of the Crown, were of considerable national importance, such as Chancellors of Universities, Governors of the Bank of England, Presidents of the Royal Society, and so on. I might instance the case of the late Lord Kelvin, who occupied a position of great national importance and was peculiarly fitted to advise your Lordships' House on many important matters, and yet his name, unless he was a Privy Councillor, would not have appeared on this Return. I think, therefore, that it ought to be clearly understood by the public that the Return is not a complete one.
LORD BYRON: My Lords, I trust that your Lordships will permit me to say a word on a subject in which I am afraid I have a considerable interest. I cannot count myself among those enrolled in the first part of the noble Earl's Return, but I think there may be a good deal to be said with regard to the second part, in which I must unfortunately include myself. Should this Return be forthcoming, and should it be shown that there is a number of Peers whose attendance had been rather slack, I venture to think it would be not only useless, but to a great extent misleading, unless we could have tabulated the reasons for which those noble Lords had been absent. For instance, there might be cases—my own is one—of prolonged illness, and the question of a medical certificate or something of that kind to show that a Peer had been ill for a long time, ought, I think, to be taken into consideration. I do not, of course, venture to move the rejection of this Return, but I trust that noble Lords will take into consideration all matters that have caused Peers to be periodically absent.
LORD BURGHCLERE: My Lords, I venture to hope that in any Return which your Lordships may grant you will not follow the advice of my noble friend behind me and tabulate our sins, or supposed sins, in the way suggested. I did not rise to make a speech, but only to make one observation and to ask a question. I should like heartily to associate myself with the remarks of the noble Earl, Lord Cromer. I think it is obvious, if the selection of Lords of Parliament is to be settled by qualification, that
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there must be and are many members in your Lordships' House who have done great service to the State, though not under the Crown; and it would be very valuable, if this is to be the foundation of any action on the part of this House, that those members should be included as well as noble Lords who have served the Sovereign. The question I wish to ask is why the noble Earl has chosen the three special years 1902, 1906, and 1909. There may be good reason for that. I should like to hear from the noble Earl why those three years have been specially chosen as the foundation for a Return of the attendances of Temporal Peers in your Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: My Lords, I do not wish to interrupt the course of the discussion, but I should like to ask whether those Peers who are not included in this Return are to be known under the general description of "wild men?"
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF CREWE): My Lords, I have no desire to offer any kind of opposition to this Return, or indeed to any Return of a similar character for which any noble Lord may ask, provided that it can be produced without too great a charge on the public funds. But from the few observations which have been made by noble Lords in different parts of the House it is impossible not to conclude that a certain difficulty which surrounds the whole matter also surrounds this Return. That is to say, if certain inferences are to be drawn from a particular Return with a view to influencing the House towards the adoption of a particular policy we may look, I think, for a demand for something like a torrent of different Returns, all intended to enforce the different points of view—and I believe they are extremely numerous—held by noble Lords on this subject. I think it is necessary, therefore, and I have no doubt the noble Earl who moved for the Return will agree in this, that the Return must be taken as simply stating certain things, and that it must not be treated as an argument in itself for any particular line of policy which the noble Earl or any other noble Lord may desire to adopt. In such conditions I confess I have no desire whatever to oppose its production.
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: Perhaps I may, with the permission of the House, reply to the question as to why the special years 1902, 1906, and 1909 were selected. The answer is that the Return is practically prepared. I have copies in my hand. They are marked "Confidential" because the Return was prepared for the Committee presided over by Lord Rosebery. Those particular years were then selected, and I have asked to have the Return reprinted for the information of your Lordships' House generally.
THE EARL OF CREWE: Why were those years selected?
THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I don't know.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.
LORD KILLANIN LORD KILLANIN had given notice to move for a Return—

1. Showing the number of Temporal Peers now sitting in Parliament who have been elected to serve in the House of Commons but were compelled to resign their seats there on succeeding to the Peerage.

2. Showing in which House of Parliament Temporal Peers now sitting in Parliament who have held the office of Parliamentary Under-Secretary or Parliamentary Secretary in any Government Department were while they held such offices.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, since I put down the Motion which stands in my name the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, has changed in some important respects the Motion of which he had given notice some days previously, and to that extent he has made his Return seem less inequitable than it did. I think, however, that the noble Earl's Return is still inadequate if it is to be the basis of any recommendations subsequently brought before your Lordships' House for approval. But in the amended form of the noble Earl's Return I do not think the information for which I ask is necessary, and therefore, with your Lordships' leave, I will not move my Motion.
House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, Four o'clock.