Lords Sitting of 20 June 1910

Preamble
Several Lords Several Lords—Took the Oath.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House, That the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Egremont Urban District Council (Gas).
Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway.
Bristol Gas.
Mountain Ash Water.
Exmouth Gas.
Exmouth Urban District Water.
Also the Certificates that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:
Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London). [H.L.]
Tramways Orders Confirmation. [H.L.]
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

LLANELLY HARBOUR BILL. [H.L.]
Read 2a.
RAILWAY PASSENGERS ASSURANCE COMPANY (TRANSFER) BILL. [H.L.]
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
DISEASES OF ANIMALS (No. 2) BILL.
Brought from the Commons.
MIDDLESBROUGH CORPORATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
ASSAM RAILWAYS AND TRADING COMPANY BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with an Amendment: The said Amendment considered, and agreed to.
GOWERTON GAS BILL. [H.L.]
Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered and agreed to.
SURBITON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
Returned from the Commons, with the Amendments, agreed to.
SMALL DWELLING-HOUSES IN BURGHS LETTING (SCOTLAND) BILL. [H.L.]
Petition in favour of; of the Provost, Magistrates, and Councillors of the Burgh of Partick; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

THE MEDITERRANEAN COMMAND.
LORD NORTHCOTE: My Lords, I rise to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War, with reference to the proposed appointment of a Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean, whether the next Colonial Conference will meet before 1911; whether His Majesty's Government will ascertain before that date, and before appointing a Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean, if the self-governing oversea Dominions approve the idea of periodical inspections of their military forces by that officer; and, if they do not, how it is proposed that his time shall be utilised for the public services after the discharge of his services at Malta.
THE UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (LORD LUCAS): My Lords, the answer to the first part of the Question is that the next Colonial Conference does not meet before 1911. We were not proposing to ascertain before that date whether or not the Dominions approve of the idea of inspections. Our intention was to discuss that question at the Colonial Conference next year. That, we thought, would be the best opportunity of raising the question as to the advisability of making arrangements. We do not consider this particular question to be in any sense urgent, because, as noble Lords are aware, Lord Kitchener has only just completed his important tour of inspection in Australia and New Zealand, and Sir John French is at the present moment making an inspection in Canada. Therefore, so far as those Dominions are concerned, the question of making arrangements for the possible continuance of this kind of thing cannot be considered at all urgent. Consequently we did not propose to take any steps in the matter before the Colonial Conference meet next year.

927
But I would like to repeat what I said the other night so as to make it quite plain that, whatever may be the outcome of this, such inspections can only take place if invitations are given by the Dominion Governments concerned. That is the reply to the second part of the Question. With regard to the third part, we do not think that the future Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean and Inspector-General of the Oversea Forces will find any difficulty whatever in filling up his time before such arrangements, if they are made, come into force. There are, first of all, the duties that he has to carry out in the Mediterranean, and though, as we have already stated, we do not consider that they will take up the whole or anything like the whole of his time, yet they will undoubtedly fill a large part of it. His duties as Inspector-General of the Oversea Forces will occupy a considerable amount of his time, too. The principal places which he will have to visit are South Africa, West Africa, Bermuda, Ceylon, North and South China, Jamaica, Mauritius, and the Straits Settlements. Besides those there are a large number of smaller places; and, to give your Lordships an idea of the amount of time that this kind of inspectional work does take, I may mention that Sir John French left this country at the end of last year to inspect the troops in Ceylon, Hong Kong, and the Straits Settlements, and that those three inspections alone necessitated his absence from this country for nearly three months. Your Lordships will, therefore, see that this work will take a considerable amount of time. We have, as I have said, no fear whatever that the future Inspector-General of the Oversea Forces will find the fullest occupation of his time, at any rate up till the meeting of the Colonial Conference.
LORD NORTHCOTE: My Lords, perhaps I may be allowed to say a word in explanation of my reasons for putting down this Question. The point is that unless it is made absolutely clear that the General Commanding-in-Chief in the Mediterranean is only to visit the oversea Dominions at their request, I am afraid there may be some jealousy and apprehension aroused in those Dominions at the idea that the Home Government claimed anything in the nature of a right to send an officer out to the self-governing Dominions in the ordinary course. With
928
regard to Lord Kitchener's visit to Australia, that visit, of course, was made by the request of the Australian Government, and I am sure they were very glad to see Lord Kitchener and to benefit by the very valuable report which he made; but I am afraid that they might take some objection to the idea that from time to time any officer might be sent out at the discretion of the Home Government with the view of pulling up the military tree which they had just planted to see whether or not it was growing satisfactorily. The noble Lord has told us that the time of the General Officer commanding would be very fully occupied in ordinary circumstances—that is to say, even if he does not have to go out and inspect the oversea forces. But surely it must make a very great difference whether or not it is part of his duty to visit Australia, Canada, or Africa. My object was to ascertain whether, supposing these self-governing Dominions do not want his presence, there will be sufficient occupation to fill up his full time, and, if so, how His Majesty's Government consider that he will be equally busy whether he has to visit the self-governing Colonies or not.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (THE EARL OF CREWE): My Lords, I am very glad that the noble Lord has desired to make it even more clear, if that was necessary, that there could be no question of our sending from here any General Officer, however eminent, to inspect the forces of the self-governing Dominions except at their request. It is, of course, obvious to anybody who knows the conditions under which the Dominions oversea undertake their part in Imperial defence, that they reserve to themselves complete liberty both as to the character of the forces which they may think it desirable to have and also as to the training and equipment of those forces. But I think it is not less clear—and it became quite clear to us who were engaged last year in the Defence Conference which took place between the representatives of the self-governing Dominions and ourselves—that there is a real desire among them, so far as is possible under their local conditions, to attain uniformity of equipment and to a certain degree uniformity in the character of the forces of the different parts of the Empire. That being so, I think it is exceedingly probable that they

929
will welcome, not so much perhaps "periodical" inspections, to quote the word which the noble Lord used, because that word looks rather as though we were sending out a man from here at fixed periods, but inspections at such times as they may by arrangement consider necessary in order, in the first place, to obtain the advantage of a first-rate military opinion on the spot, and also with a view to maintaining and preserving at any rate that partial, even if it cannot be quite complete, uniformity of training and equipment of which I have already spoken.
My noble friend, I think, dealt with the question of time. I should be quite willing, if it should be thought there was any advantage in doing so, to inquire of the Governments of the different self-governing Dominions whether they wish to discuss this question at once or whether they would prefer to postpone consideration of it until the Imperial Conference of next year. As my noble friend has pointed out, the matter is, in that point of view, not extraordinarily urgent, owing to the fact that the forces in Australia and New Zealand have had the advantage of being inspected by Lord Kitchener, and that Sir John French is now performing the same work in Canada; and, as regards South Africa, I have no doubt the South African Government would say that they wished to be more firmly seated in the saddle before discussing the question of their own national forces in such a manner. But, as I say, if it were thought desirable I should be quite willing at any time to put that question to the self-governing Dominions.
The purely military aspect of the question has been dealt with by my noble friend. I do not think that the difficulty which the noble Lord indicated is a very real one so far as regards the occupation of the time of this officer. As I understand it, he will be fully occupied as a rule in inspecting the oversea Imperial troops and the forces in the different Crown Colonies, but there would be a margin of time which, by arrangement, would from time to time render it possible for him, when on one of those tours, also, if he received an invitation from any particular self-governing Colony, to combine an inspection of their forces as well. It seems to me it would be a matter for friendly arrangement, and I should have
930
thought that it would be easy enough to fit in from time to time, because nobody can suppose that these inspections in self-governing Colonies would have to be very numerous or frequent. It would not be difficult for him to fit them in in the course of one of the tours which he would, as an ordinary matter of duty, be taking for the inspection of the forces in those parts of the Empire which we administer from here. I think that is all I have to add to what my noble friend behind me has said.
VISCOUNT MIDLETON: My Lords, I am quite sure my noble friend's statement has made it clear that nothing will be done in this matter which will in any way hurt the feelings or invade the privileges of the self-governing Colonies. But I confess I think that the debate the other night left the position of the officer whom it is proposed to appoint in a most unsatisfactory condition, and as regards the discussion which has taken place this evening we are left in a very nebulous position as to what the functions of this officer are to be.
I would remind your Lordships that there are three points now under discussion. The first is, Does Sir John French require additional support in the matter of the inspection of garrisons which have to be inspected by him? His Majesty's Government hold that that is so, and in that case nobody, I am sure, would be more willing than your Lordships to supply or assist in supplying such inspection. Then comes the question whether this officer, who most of us would think is going to be sufficiently employed in Africa, is fit to undertake the inspection of forces in the self-governing Colonies; and the noble Lord the Under-Secretary added to the already unique functions of this remarkable appointment inspections in North and South China and also Bermuda, all of which, we understand, are to be undertaken by an officer who is to be resident at Malta, and who is to be Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean.
I ask His Majesty's Government not to indulge in vague statements about development in the Mediterranean and matters of organisation, in respect of which we have no facts whatever or anything which will guide us, but to tell us frankly and fully whether this officer who is to inspect the

931
whole of the world, and who may be called upon to spend time in Australia as well as in China and Bermuda, is going to command in Egypt and to be responsible as Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean for the command of troops in what is not a British Colony but is still under the sphere of British influence? Is he to be responsible for commanding the troops at Malta and Gibraltar? If so, I would point out that the whole existing organisation of the Army is being overturned by which administration is left in one hand at the War Office, inspection in a second, and command in a third; and I plead for that distinction. If there is anything in the present arrangement it is to keep those three functions distinct. As far as I can understand, all three are going to be jumbled together in the vaguest fashion in order to keep up this appointment of Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean, for which no man alive, except the spokesman of His Majesty's Government, can say a good word or find a reliable argument. I would ask that we should be told before this appointment is made, and not afterwards, whether this multifarious assortment of duties is to be continued.
Next we should be told—what I ventured to press His Majesty's Government for on Monday last—what were the duties assigned to the Duke of Connaught which he found it impossible to discharge to the advantage of the country, and what were the duties proposed to be assigned to Lord Kitchener which he found, in his judgment and with his experience, incompatible for a Field-Marshal to discharge. May I plead that we should have a little of that clear thinking of which we have heard so much from the Secretary of State for War, and that His Majesty's Government should put into language that your Lordships can understand the answers to what seem to me the very legitimate questions I have ventured to put.
No noble LORD rising from the Government Bench to reply,
VISCOUNT MIDLETON said: I would press the Under-Secretary to kindly give me an answer with regard to the undertaking he gave a week ago that he would consider what Papers could be laid.
LORD LUCAS: The noble Viscount will remember that I undertook, the last time
932
this question was raised, that I would communicate with him as to the Papers we could lay on the Table. I had hoped to be able to give him this information to-day. I trust within a very short time to be in a position to do so. I think we shall be able to furnish a good deal of what he wants, and to lay Papers which will define clearly what we expect this officer to do.

AGRICULTURAL EDUCATION.
LORD MONK BRETTON: My Lords, I rise to ask His Majesty's Government (1) whether agricultural colleges and institutions which at present receive or may be entitled to receive grants from the Board of Education and the Board of Agriculture may also receive grants from the Development Commissioners direct; and whether in those circumstances such institutions would be subject to the regulations of three sets of Government officials; and (2) how soon the Agricultural Commissioners will consider schemes to assist agricultural education. I also desire to move for the Minute (referred to in [Cd. 4886] of 1909) constituting a Rural Education Conference for the discussion of all questions connected with education in rural districts.
Your Lordships are aware that agricultural colleges are admittedly in great straits for Government grants. One of the greatest difficulties we had was the delimitation of the spheres of influence between the Board of Education and the Board of Agriculture, and the noble Earl the President of the Board of Agriculture was able to inform your Lordships last July that an agreement had been arrived at between the two Boards. That was followed, in September, by the Memorandum to which I venture to call your Lordships' attention. It is not my business now to go into all the details of that Memorandum, but I regret that they are not more in consonance with the Report of Lord Reay's Committee. It had one feature, however, which appeared to be very desirable, and that was that His Majesty's Government intended to constitute a Rural Education Conference for the discussion of questions relating to agricultural education, and on which there were to be representatives of the Board of Agriculture, the Board of Education, the County Councils' Association, the Royal

933
Agricultural Society, and other bodies. We were, according to this Memorandum, to have that body constituted last autumn, but it has not been set up yet, and I hope the noble Earl will be able to promise us the Minute this evening.
I should like to say a word as to why I am pressing personally for this Conference. The matter is, perhaps, a local one, but I think it is not altogether untypical. Under this Memorandum the college with which I am associated in the South of England has been turned over from the Board of Agriculture to the Board of Education, except in very small respects for outside work. The grants from the Board of Agriculture have ceased altogether, but the grants from the Board of Education have not begun, and we do not know what they are likely to be because they are wrapped up in the peculiar block-grant system to which I have already referred in your Lordships' House. We were anxious to know what we should get and we met the Board of Education officials, who told us that we had been working on wrong lines, and that in future we were to have short courses and the whole system was to be altered. The Board of Education may be right or they may be wrong, but we should like to know what money we are going to get before we carry out this local revolution. I venture to think that a great change of this sort is a matter which should be brought before this Conference, which would be a very suitable body to consider and advise upon it, and therefore I would ask the noble Earl whether he cannot give us a promise that the Conference shall be called together as soon as possible.
There is another authority besides the Board of Education and the Board of Agriculture which is appearing on the horizon, namely, the Development Commissioners. As I understood the Development Act, all grants to agricultural colleges were to come either through the Board of Education or the Board of Agriculture—that is to say, through a Government Department. But I understand that the wording of the law is by no means clear on that point. At any rate, local authorities do not quite know whether they will or will not receive grants direct from the Development Commissioners, and I think it would be to the public advantage to know how the grants to agricultural col-
934
leges from the Development Commissioners are to be administered. Finally, as we hope a great deal from the money which will be received from the Development Commissioners, I would ask the noble Earl if he can hold out any hope that the Commissioners will soon get to work. I believe that a prominent member of the Commission is serving under the noble Earl the Leader of the House as Permanent Under-Secretary at the Colonial Office. No doubt that is a good thing for the Colonial Office, but we would like to know when we may hope that the Development Commissioners will get to work, and when we may see the result in some form of pecuniary assistance to agricultural education.
Moved, That there be laid before the House the Minute (referred to in [Cd. 4886] of 1909) constituting a Rural Education Conference for the discussion of all questions connected with education in rural districts.—(Lord Monk Bretton.)
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE AND FISHERIES (EARL CARRINGTON): My Lords, I can give the noble Lord an answer to his first Question at once. Agricultural colleges and institutions are not debarred from receiving grants direct from the Development Fund by reason of their receiving Government grants from the Board of Education or the Board of Agriculture. There is no prohibition in the Act forbidding grants in such cases, and it would be unfortunate if there were, as a number of the leading agricultural institutions in the country would be ruled out. Each case must be dealt with on its own merits. At the same time, care must evidently be taken to prevent overlapping grants and jurisdictions. Steps to this end were taken when the recent agreement was arrived at between the Board of Agriculture and the Board of Education as to the limits of their respective functions in regard to agricultural education. This was laid before Parliament in a Command Paper in 1909, and under it institutions giving, first, advanced instruction, and, secondly, instruction in a special branch of agriculture, were assigned to the Board of Agriculture; and the other institutions—farm schools, county lectures, and so forth—were given to the Board of Education, except that farms in connection with farm schools, of which, I think, there are three, are to be maintained under the supervision

935
of the Board of Agriculture. As between the two Departments, therefore, there should cease to be, even if there were any in the past, any overlapping of functions.
Though it is premature to make any promises until the Development Commissioners have recommended specific proposals, it may confidently be stated that it will be the policy of the Treasury to prevent overlapping between the Commissioners and the two Departments. In considering what sums should be placed on the Estimates for agricultural education this year, the Treasury, before the appointment of the Development Commissioners, had occasion to consider the point with the Board of Agriculture, and the Departments agreed that grants for aiding original research and equipment grants for agricultural institutions should not be placed on the Board of Agriculture Vote, but should be considered as charges upon the Development Fund.
The noble Lord put a personal question to me in regard to a college in which he takes a great interest—the college at Uckfield. There are only two of these institutions in regard to which the amount of the grant to be given has not been settled, and I am sorry to have to tell the noble Lord that Uckfield is one of the two. I am afraid I cannot say more at the present moment. Every application, other than those by a Government Department, for assistance from the Development Fund must be referred by the Treasury, under Section 4 (1) of the Development Act, to the Government Department concerned, who will forward it with their report thereon to the Development Commissioners. This arrangement we hope will be a further safeguard against overlapping.
In his second Question the noble Lord asks how soon the Agricultural Commissioners will consider schemes to assist agricultural education. The Agricultural Commissioners are presumably those members of the Development Commission who are interested in agriculture. Your Lordships will remember that there were originally six, but these Commissioners have been increased in number to eight. Lord Richard Cavendish is the Chairman, and Sir Francis Hopwood is the salaried Vice-Chairman. The preliminary work of reporting on schemes to assist agricultural
936
education will be done by the Departments concerned, and it is not possible to state at present how soon the Development Commissioners will be able to apply themselves to this work. I have endeavoured to make the answer as plain as possible, and I hope it will to some extent be satisfactory to the noble Lord.
THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE: May I ask whether the noble Earl proposes to lay on the Table the Papers from which he has been quoting at some length in the course of his reply?
EARL CARRINGTON: Yes, with pleasure.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: My Lords, I do not think the noble Earl has answered the latter part of my noble friend's Question as regards the Conference to be held to consider this question of agricultural education. In the Minute which is in your Lordships' hands there occurs a paragraph to the effect that the Conference will be constituted by a later Minute to be issued in the course of the autumn—that was the autumn of last year. We are now well advanced in the year 1910, and I should like to hear from the noble Earl when this Conference is to meet. I do not think that the Board of Education or the Board of Agriculture can complain that those who are interested in agricultural education have not brought this matter before His Majesty's Government. I have before me a number of Questions asked in the other House upon it. In March last a Question was put by Mr. Bathurst and replied to by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education, Mr. Trevelyan, in which an assurance was given that if we would wait a little longer we would find that there would be no delay in the Conference being held. Then on April 12 Mr. Bathurst was reassured by Mr. Trevelyan that every effort was being made to expedite the Conference. Again, as lately as the 15th of this month the President of the Board of Education, Mr. Runciman, stated that the noble Earl hoped to be in a position to make the promised announcement in the course of a few days. Those few days having elapsed, my noble friend Lord Monk Bretton considered that it was time the point should be raised again and an endeavour made to ascertain from the noble Earl why, notwithstanding those

937
assurances, nothing has been done to appoint this Conference which has been promised now for upwards of a year.
During the period I was President of the Board of Education I took great interest in the agricultural education of the children in rural elementary schools, and I did so for this reason. I considered that if we were to retain the children as agriculturists on the land in the future the objects and interests of agriculture could not be too early instilled into their minds. I remember quite well appealing to my noble friend Lord Onslow, who was then Minister for Agriculture, and he placed at the disposal of the Board of Education a very valuable gentleman, Mr. Dymond, who assisted us in the instruction of these children in all matters of country life. Therefore, having seen this system working well, I am anxious to see an efficient scheme of agricultural education set up in the rural schools of this country. It stands to reason that the curriculum in a school situated in a rural district should be different from that in an urban school, and that children attending rural elementary schools should be interested in the industry to which it is hoped they will eventually devote their interest. Time is flying, and those children who are waiting for agricultural instruction in rural elementary schools may be leaving those schools before having an opportunity of deriving that benefit which my noble friend had intended should be placed at their disposal. It is because I think no time should be lost that I regret that the noble Earl has not given a decided answer to the question as to the holding of this Conference. The noble Earl's colleagues in another place have repeatedly promised the representatives of agriculture that the Conference should take place "shortly," yet the Conference seems to be further off than ever.
THE EARL OF CREWE: My Lords, before my noble friend says a word in reply to what has just fallen from the noble Marquess opposite, I should like to make one observation with regard to the speech of the noble Lord who initiated this discussion. My noble friend behind me dealt with the general question, but I think I can venture once more to reassure the noble Lord on this question of overlapping. He spoke of a third Department being brought in to assist in administering affairs which are already administered by
938
two Departments. My noble friend the President of the Board of Agriculture pointed out that so far as it is possible to avoid overlapping in a mixed subject such as this particular kind of technical agricultural education the arrangements now proposed will avoid that defect. Of course, it is obvious that where you have to deal with a subject like education, which is under the control of one Department, and agriculture, which is under the control of another Department, you can hardly in a sense avoid some double action, even though you may do your best to avoid overlapping. But so far as the Development Commissioners are concerned, they will not introduce any third element which could be described as overlapping. What I take it would happen would be this, that in the event of a request being made to the Development Commissioners for a grant the matter, as my noble friend behind me pointed out, would become the subject of discussion between the Departments concerned and the Development Commissioners. The Development Commissioners, in considering it, would naturally take into consideration the whole scheme of such an institution as an agricultural college, and before deciding whether they would make a grant, with the administration of which they should not concern themselves, they would have to be satisfied, no doubt, on this question of overlapping, among others, and on the general merits of the particular case.
Then the noble Lord opposite spoke about the position of Sir Francis Hopwood, the Vice-Chairman of the Development Commission, on which I ought, perhaps, to say a word. It is quite true that Sir Francis is still acting as Permanent Under-Secretary at the Colonial Office. That is an arrangement which, of course, cannot be permanent, but it is necessitated by the special rearrangements necessary in view of the creation of a new Department. If the noble Lord will reflect he will remember that it very frequently happens that for a time some important Civil Servant holding the position of Undersecretary is employed on work outside his office, as, for instance, on the work of a Royal Commission, which takes sometimes a considerable part of the day, and in an office such as the Colonial Office special arrangements have, of course, to be made to see that an undue burden is not thrown upon the individual concerned.

939
I can assure the noble Lord that so far as the present temporary arrangement is concerned, we do our best to see that Sir Francis Hopwood is not overburdened. He takes his share of his work at the Colonial Office, and is also able, I am glad to say, to give such time as is required in its initial stage for the work of the Development Commission.
EARL CARRINGTON: My Lords, I must apologise for not having answered the noble Lord's third Question, but I did not understand that he put all three Questions together. I may say that, far from complaining of, we are indebted to noble Lords opposite and members of the Opposition in another place for the co-operation and assistance they have given us in this matter, and we value very much Lord Londonderry's practical work in days gone by in this direction, which I can assure him is in no way forgotten. The Minute for the Conference was signed by myself on Saturday, and I believe it has also been signed by my right hon. friend Mr. Runciman, and will be issued without delay. It looks, on the face of it, as if there had been a good deal of unnecessary delay, but I think noble Lords opposite will see that it was not easy to get the answers all at once. We issued invitations to the
940
various associations who are to be represented at the Conference. Those invitations went out on January 15 of the present year, and the last reply was received as lately as the 9th of this month. It is a very large Conference. Forty-two or forty-three noblemen and gentlemen have consented to serve, and I hope that the names will receive the public appreciation which in my judgment they so thoroughly deserve. I will lay these Papers at once on the Table of the House.
THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY: I presume that the Conference will begin sitting as soon as possible? That is important.
EARL CARRINGTON: I will do all I can to get the Conference to meet as soon as possible.
On Question, Motion agreed to, and ordered accordingly.

DISEASES OF ANIMALS (No. 2) BILL.
Read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 59.)
House adjourned at twenty minutes past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.